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A Materialist Gets It (Almost)

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A recent exchange with Allan Keith illustrates how materialists have allowed their intellect to become literally enslaved to their metaphysical commitments.  Allan proves one can understand the logic fully and even accept the logic.  And then turn right around and deny the conclusions compelled by the logic.  Let’s see how:

We will pick up the exchange where Allan has admitted that we have countless trillions of examples of functional complexity, semiosis and irreducible complexity caused by humans.

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Barry:

You admit that we have countless trillions of examples of functional complexity, semiosis and irreducible complexity from humans. So far so good.

What is it about humans that enables them to cause those things Allan? Intelligence.

So now we have countless trillions of examples of functional complexity, semiosis and irreducible complexity from humans on account of their intelligence.

We have observed exactly ZERO instances of any other cause accounting for functional complexity, semiosis and irreducible complexity.

Put it together Allan. Human intelligence is the only certainly known source of functional complexity, semiosis and irreducible complexity.

Therefore, when we see functional complexity, semiosis and irreducible complexity whose origins we do not know, we have a choice:

1 Attribute it to the only cause known with certainty to produce it, i.e. intelligence.
2 Attribute it to causes that have never been observed producing it.

Answer 1 is obviously best.

Allan responds:

Option 1 does not follow from your logic. The logical option 1 would be:  Attribute it to the only cause known with certainty to produce it, i.e. Human intelligence.

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I understand Allan’s metaphysical commitments prevent him from following the logic beyond a certain point, but his response is still very sad.  I wonder if he ever gets tired of wearing those blinkers.

What is wrong with Allan’s reply?  It steadfastly ignores the glaringly obvious fact that intelligence (not the more narrow “human intelligence”) is the causal factor.

In other words, the thing about humans that makes them a special case is not that they are a member of the Animalia kingdom, or the Chordata phylum, or the Mammalia class, or the Primate order, or the Homo genus or the Homo sapiens species.  The thing that distinguishes humans is reflected in the name of the species.  (“Homo sapiens” means literally “wise man.”) The distinguishing characteristic of the species is intelligence.

It is that characteristic and nothing else that accounts for the ability of Homo sapiens to cause functional complexity, semiosis and irreducible complexity.*

Now it is certainly true that the species Homo sapiens is the only species of which we have observational evidence that it causes functional complexity, semiosis and irreducible complexity.  Allan seems to believe that fact compels the conclusion that we can infer only “human design” from an observed instance of functional complexity, semiosis and irreducible complexity.

Nonsense.  Not even Allan’s fellow materialists agree with him:

BEN STEIN: What do you think is the possibility that Intelligent Design might turn out to be the answer to some issues in genetics or in Darwinian evolution.

DAWKINS: Well, it could come about in the following way. It could be that at some earlier time, somewhere in the universe, a civilization evolved, probably by some kind of Darwinian means, probably to a very high level of technology, and designed a form of life that they seeded onto perhaps this planet. Um, now that is a possibility, and an intriguing possibility. And I suppose it’s possible that you might find evidence for that if you look at the details of biochemistry, molecular biology, you might find a signature of some sort of designer. . . . And that Designer could well be a higher intelligence from elsewhere in the universe.  But that higher intelligence would itself have had to have come about by some explicable, or ultimately explicable process. It couldn’t have just jumped into existence spontaneously. That’s the point

Dawkins understands, as Allan apparently does not, that it is the intelligence, not its instantiation in any particular species, that is important when it comes to inferring design.

UPDATE:

To his credit, Allan now admits the obvious:

Design inference is based almost solely on a comparison to human design. This can certainly be used to infer design in biology . . .

But he cannot resist adding an unwarranted disclaimer:

. . . but with only one known source of intelligence as a frame of reference, the inference is weak. That is statistical reality speaking, not me. But even a weak inference can strengthen support for ID if there were other avenues of examination that support ID.

Why does Allan consider the inference weak?  Because his metaphysical commitments, not logic, compel that conclusion.  Again, here is the logic:

  1. Object X exhibits functional complexity, semiosis and irreducible complexity.
  2. The ONLY KNOWN CAUSE of functional complexity, semiosis and irreducible complexity is design by an intelligent agent.
  3. Inferring to best explanation, the only known cause of functional complexity, semiosis and irreducible complexity (i.e., intelligent design) is the cause of the functional complexity, semiosis or  irreducible complexity in Object X.

Allan insists the inference is “weak,” even though he admits the inference as to cause is to the only known cause of the phenomenon.  Why?  Statistics.  Nonsense.  It is not a statistical analysis.  It is a logical analysis.

 

 

 

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*Let’s not get bogged down with beavers and bees.  The international space station is obviously different in kind and not merely degree from a beaver dam.  Anyone who denies this disqualifies themselves from being considered serious.

 

Comments
Outside of biology just look at the earth/ moon system. And think of how many just-so cosmic collisions would have had to have happened to get it the way it is. If the earth didn’t rotate we wouldn’t have a magnetic field and the atmospheric gasses wouldn’t get mixed. No life. No axis of rotation stabilizing moon and again no life. If the moon has too much mass the tides would be severe.
“The same narrow circumstances that allow us to exist also provide us with the best over all conditions for making scientific discoveries.” “The one place that has observers is the one place that also has perfect solar eclipses.” “There is a final, even more bizarre twist. Because of Moon-induced tides, the Moon is gradually receding from Earth at 3.82 centimeters per year. In ten million years will seem noticeably smaller. At the same time, the Sun’s apparent girth has been swelling by six centimeters per year for ages, as is normal in stellar evolution. These two processes, working together, should end total solar eclipses in about 250 million years, a mere 5 percent of the age of the Earth. This relatively small window of opportunity also happens to coincide with the existence of intelligent life. Put another way, the most habitable place in the Solar System yields the best view of solar eclipses just when observers can best appreciate them.”
“The Privileged Planet” extends the design inference beyond biology.ET
March 24, 2018
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Eric @57
EricMH: Of course, this means that AI is self defeating, in just the same way that Darwinian evolution undermines epistemology. If these theories were true, it would be impossible for us to know. However, while logically coherent, this argument does not produce anything scientific or technological, at least by itself, and remains in the realm of philosophy, not science.
Science better listens up when philosophy points out that its course is self-defeating. How would you define "science"? J.Bartlett wrote:
... either you want to define science as an epistemic phenomenon (a unique way of knowing) or as a sociological phenomenon (a unique group of people). ... ... most historians and scientists accept a sociological definition: Science is what the scientific community says it is. This is a sociological definition. However, most people’s interest in science is not sociological, but epistemic. In other words, people become scientists not because they want to be part of the “cool crowd”, and therefore we look to this crowd of people who call themselves scientists, but rather because they want to know more about reality, and science has put itself out as a uniquely dependable epistemological system. If science is merely a sociological affair, then no one needs to pay it any more attention than underwater basket weavers, unless they happen to be interested in the subject. However, society has, over the last few centuries, been increasing the amount of epistemic weight that it has put on science. Therefore, definitions of science such as “the thing that scientists do” really hurt the epistemology of science, because it means that it is just about being part of the cool crowd, not having real knowledge about something.
Origenes
March 24, 2018
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There isn’t any research that shows blind and mindless processes can do anything beyond produce genetic diseases and deformities.ET
March 24, 2018
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JVL:
There is lots of research supporting blind watchmaker processes.
Liar
Mutations are random with respect to fitness, that statement is in every evolution textbook.
That doesn't support blind watchmaker evolution. Random with respect to fitness does not mean they are happenstance occurrences. And it definitely doesn't demonstrate they can accumulate in such a way as to produce protein machines.ET
March 24, 2018
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kairosfocus I can see you're making a irreducibly complex kind of argument. I don't know how life arose but there is a lot of work and research going on. I think it's prudent to wait to see how that all plays out before declaring game over.JVL
March 24, 2018
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JVL, there is no small-step incrementally functional approach to FSCO/I in general. The deep isolation in AA sequence space of protein fold domains is a very good illustration of the islands of function effect. The general point is, functional specificity demands tight clusters of configurations leading to deeply isolated islands. The key-lock fitting of cellular machinery is again illustrative. Going beyond, we can see that the relevant pre-life context does not have a self-replicating facility that uses code based info to generate a metabolic, self-replicating cell, that too is a big part of the FSCO/I to be accounted for. Where, the three observed causal patterns out there are mechanical necessity, blind chance and intelligently directed configuration; there is no fourth observed highly capable causal factor. We see a further case of putting up the unobserved IOU to artificially block the strength of a massively evident inference. KFkairosfocus
March 24, 2018
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gpuccio Thank you for being so clear. I'm not sure if all ID proponents completely agree with you (many are unwilling to be so specific) so I will take this as your personal view. It seems a perfectly rational engineering design approach, much like, say, how bicycles went through various design families until the basic modern frame was arrived at. Of course there are still some significant variations on the theme but you don't see penny-farthing bicycles being used much any more. This also applies to sub-systems like breaks and gears. As the designs become more and more robust and efficient the rate of variation slows down, occasionally bumped up with the availability of new materials or manufacturing techniques. But that seems a very mechanistic and resource limiting approach. I'm not sure what that would say about the designer(s) motivations or methods or techniques. If the designer(s) were engineers then I would expect to see other evidence of their presence. Certainly any engineering work requires resources and energy, some kind of manufacturing process, labs, etc. And, if the designer(s) are still around, observing and deciding when next to intervene, they seem to be very well hidden indeed! I wonder what their motivation to remain undetected would be? I'm not sure what purpose would be served by their being so elusive. Anyway, lots of questions and issues to explore I guess. kairosfocus the implication is that the design inference is of the same inductive and thus in principle provisional character as the general body of scientific inference. As to its strength, it is at least as strong as any other key inference on the past of origins, noting that the inference to design on sign rests on a trillion-member observed set of cases of the cause of FSCO/I seen to be in action with zero exceptions. This being backed up by the search challenge, needle in haystack analysis of configuration spaces beyond 500 – 1,000 bits on the gamut of sol system or observed cosmos atomic resources (10^57 to 10^80 atoms, fast chem rxn times ~ 10^-13 – 10^ -15 s), and ~ 10^17 s available time since the singularity. I'm not sure what you mean exactly? I don't think anyone is suggesting that there was some kind of brute force search of large configuration space. That's not the way I read the proposed models.JVL
March 24, 2018
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Bob O’H: Any comments to my #30?gpuccio
March 24, 2018
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JVL at #59: Good questions. Here are my answers.
So . . . your designer(s) have been around for a long time. Seemingly letting non-directed processes grind away for a while and occasionally dropping in a new protein construct?
Yes. Non directed processes of course go on all the time. The design interventions are separated events. They can in principle be at the level of one protein, or more probably of more complex sets of engineering. Facts must guide us in understanding the details.
Is that method of design because the designer(s) have/had a final goal in mind and are guiding things along until that goal is achieved?
A designer always has some goal in mind, be it immediate or final. We can hypothesize that the designer, or designers, have some final goal, but that remains only an hypothesis at present. Again, facts must guide us. Moreover, if there is more than one designer, finals goals could be different. However, a lot of immediate goals can easily be detected in the specific designs. One general goal that I could suggest is to allow the expression of new and increasingly complex functions in biological life. Contrary to what is thought in neo-darwinism, that needs not always be connected to survival.
Do you think human beings are the final design or might we be supplanted (like the Neanderthals) by something new?
I am totally open about that. Certainly, humans have expressed a lot of new functions that were previously absent, or just dormant. Good and bad, I would say.
Is/are the destigner(s) letting nature test the designers to see what is most likely to succeed and then giving the ‘winners’ a boost?
I assume that you meant "letting nature test the designs". I will answer to that. Yes, that's definitely a possibility. I think that the main design must be implemented by guided variation, IOWs directly. But of course, a bottom up strategy is certainly possible. Design strategies can also take advantage of controlled random variation followed by Intelligent Selection (the "boost" you mention). We have good examples of that in antibody affinity maturation, or even in the famous Szostak paper about ATP binding. The difference between NS and IS is that in IS the boost is designed, and not necessarily bound to survival advantage, but rather to intelligent function recognition. If you want, you can have a look at my OP about that: Natural Selection vs Artificial Selection https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/natural-selection-vs-artificial-selection/ (Just to avoid confusion: Artificial Selection and Intelligent Selection are the same thing, for me)gpuccio
March 24, 2018
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PPS: That we are invited to accept an intellectual IOU in the face of a trillion-member observational base on the origin of FSCO/I backed by utter search challenge reveals that we are looking at ideological commitments of faith tied to creedal a priori evolutionary materialism, not inductive inference. Newton's vera causa principle answers to such decisively. Provide clear evidence of non-intelligent, blind processes writing complex, algorithmically functional code based on specific patterns beyond 500 - 1,000 bits of complexity or acknowledge that empty ideological speculation is imposed in the teeth of a trillion-member observational base establishing that FSCO/I is a reliable sign of design.kairosfocus
March 24, 2018
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JVL, do you or do you not acknowledge that the induction (modern sense) is the logic of support for conclusions rather than that of demonstration as following from given premises? Where, science and many other domains of thought and knowledge are of inductive character. If your answer is yes, the implication is that the design inference is of the same inductive and thus in principle provisional character as the general body of scientific inference. As to its strength, it is at least as strong as any other key inference on the past of origins, noting that the inference to design on sign rests on a trillion-member observed set of cases of the cause of FSCO/I seen to be in action with zero exceptions. This being backed up by the search challenge, needle in haystack analysis of configuration spaces beyond 500 - 1,000 bits on the gamut of sol system or observed cosmos atomic resources (10^57 to 10^80 atoms, fast chem rxn times ~ 10^-13 - 10^ -15 s), and ~ 10^17 s available time since the singularity. And, I have no need to speculate on when or how in detail such design occurred, or who were involved to know that it is well established as an inductive argument that FSCO/I is a strong sign of design as cause. One may infer arson from accelerants without knowing any particular suspect or detailed technique. KF PS: An RNA world is dubious and does not escape the issue of origin of FSCO/I. It is also not at all extraordinary for alphanumeric code to come about by intelligence. Where Sagan form Cliffordian evidentialism is little more than a declaration of intent to impose artificial barriers to conclusions in defense of ideological commitments. Claims require adequate warrant, period. That FSCO/I is produced by intelligently directed configuration is routinely observed and it is ONLY seen as coming from that with blind chance and mechanical necessity facing search challenge on steroids.kairosfocus
March 24, 2018
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Just curious . . . . Do you all agree with gpuccio's hypothesis that design was implemented every time a new protein superfamily (his words) appeared? That design was/is an ongoing, punctuated process? See comment 50 above.JVL
March 24, 2018
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gpuccio But, as I have always said, each time that a new protein superfamily appears in evolutionary history, that is an act of design. And we have about 2000 different protein superfamilies. So, is design continuous? No. The acts of design are punctuated, and they correspong to the rather sudden appearance of big amounts of new functional information that is added to what already exists. They are acts of engineering, limited in time, but occurring thorughout natural history. Thank you, that's clear. So . . . your designer(s) have been around for a long time. Seemingly letting non-directed processes grind away for a while and occasionally dropping in a new protein construct? Is that method of design because the designer(s) have/had a final goal in mind and are guiding things along until that goal is achieved? Do you think human beings are the final design or might we be supplanted (like the Neanderthals) by something new? Is/are the destigner(s) letting nature test the designers to see what is most likely to succeed and then giving the 'winners' a boost? kairosfocus There are no good inductive grounds for dismissing evidence in hand on what boils down to a hyperskeptical demand to separately establish the existence of a designer. The aim of such an argument is clearly to artificially block what is actually a clear case of logical, inductive [modern sense] inference. What if your inductive inference is incorrect? You accept that it's a possibility? ET Question begging and not an argument. Your alleged vast majority don’t even use the concept of blind watchmaker evolution to guide their research. The evidence has been presented. The evidence is from astronomy, cosmology, physics, chemistry and biology. To counter it all you have is “it just happened. here take another hit and forget about it. it’s settled science.” There isn’t any research that shows blind and mindless processes can do anything beyond produce genetic diseases and deformities. Fine-tuning (if it's even possible) is a separate issue. And, if the universe has been fine-tuned, it only implies some intervention once a very, very long time ago. It does not grant biological design happening billions of years later. There is lots of research supporting blind watchmaker processes. Mutations are random with respect to fitness, that statement is in every evolution textbook. vividbleau Ok I will bite how did DNA arise? No one is sure but there is a lot of work and research going into that question. Some sort of RNA-world precursor perhaps? For sure things had to start off very, very simple. Of course, we can never be 100% sure (since no one was around at the time and/or if someone was there they left no notes or observations) but hopefully some plausible step-by-step, unguided process will be proposed. It's like a giant jigsaw puzzle but people are slowly figuring out the big picture. Talk about extraordinary evidence for an extraordinary claim. How about the claim that something more technologically advanced than the blueprints for the space shuttle came about through the process of trial (natural section) and error ( random mutations). Read any good evolution textbook. I like the one written by Futuyma.JVL
March 24, 2018
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JVL re 48 “The vast majority of working scientists accept the evidence for another way for DNA to have arisen aside from some undefined designer to have done something at sometime” Ok I will bite how did DNA arise? “You can bitch and moan as much as you like but the onus is on you to provide extraordinary evidence for your extraordinary claim. Extraordinary because it subverts decades of work and research. You’ve got to have something really good and rock-solid to dislodge that.” Talk about extraordinary evidence for an extraordinary claim. How about the claim that something more technologically advanced than the blueprints for the space shuttle came about through the process of trial (natural section) and error ( random mutations). Vividvividbleau
March 23, 2018
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@GP If there were a thought algorithm then I think there would be no grounds to trust our thoughts, even if we could prove the thought algorithm was intelligently designed by a benevolent God. This is because all of our thoughts would be a formal system. Godel's second incompleteness theorem proved that all formal systems either cannot prove their consistency, or are inconsistent. Thus, we could never know if our thoughts, if a formal system, have any grounding in truth whatsoever, not even in a probabilistic sense. Complete Humean skepticism would be the order of the day. Of course, this means that AI is self defeating, in just the same way that Darwinian evolution undermines epistemology. If these theories were true, it would be impossible for us to know. I believe KF's response is along these same lines. There is no arguing with the fact that consciousness is our first datum by which all other data is gathered. Thus, data that proved consciousness did not exist would render itself incomprehensible to us. This is probably a strong enough claim to also imply with certainty that no such consciousness denying data can possibly exist. However, while logically coherent, this argument does not produce anything scientific or technological, at least by itself, and remains in the realm of philosophy, not science.EricMH
March 23, 2018
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@ eugene 8 Exactly. Godel's Incompleteness Theorem - in a nutshell. “Anything you can draw a circle around cannot explain itself without referring to something outside the circle – something you have to assume but cannot prove.” https://idvolution.blogspot.com/2012/09/godels-incompleteness-theorem-in.htmlbuffalo
March 23, 2018
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JVL:
You don’t feel the necessity to accept that you might be incorrect?
Of course I do. But given the alternatives I am very comfortable with the design inference.
This idea that the design assumption is the default is false.
Of course it is. That isn't what ID is, though. We reach the design inference after careful consideration of other possible causes. And even after those elimination rounds there still must be something and that is where IC and CSI come in.
That assumes that a designer being around is more likely that one NOT being around.
The only assumption is that we can use our knowledge of cause and effect relationships to come to a reasonable inference when investigating something we didn't observe happening.
Aside from your contentious design inference there is no evidence of a designer being around ever.
Contentious? What else is there to explain what we observe?
And you have no rigorous, scientific, method of design detection that you can show being used for known examples
Of course we do. You don't have anything to support your position. That is what has you all confused.
The vast majority of working scientists deny the design inference.
Question begging and not an argument. Your alleged vast majority don't even use the concept of blind watchmaker evolution to guide their research. The evidence has been presented. The evidence is from astronomy, cosmology, physics, chemistry and biology. To counter it all you have is "it just happened. here take another hit and forget about it. it's settled science." There isn't any research that shows blind and mindless processes can do anything beyond produce genetic diseases and deformities.ET
March 23, 2018
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EricMH @45 Suppose such an algorithm would be found. Let’s even suppose that the algorithm would be found, which explains all human thought. Would we have ground to trust our thoughts? What if our thought-algorithm was produced by random blind events? Do we have ground to trust any of our thoughts? Including our thoughts concerning AI? Looking for this algorithm seems to be an incoherent attempt.Origenes
March 23, 2018
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JVL:
Yes but you have to have an agent around at the time . .. .what time are you saying? . . . to act. I don’t see any evidence, aside from your hypothesised design which happened when? . . . for a designer. No designer means no design. Clearly. And if the design inference is wrong then . . . ID falls flat.
Cart before horse. We exemplify but given contingency of being cannot exhaust relevant possibilities for intelligent beings. where that intelligence is prior to math and sci etc. Next, intelligence is possible and FSCO/I is a characteristic, observable, well-tested sign of such intelligence in action. So, observation of FSCO/I is in itself evidence that warrants instant inference to intelligently directed configuration as best causal explanation. Intelligent action then points to intelligent agent as actor. Where in relevant cases we look at alphanumeric digital, meaningful, algorithmically functional machine code and associated molecular nanotech execution machinery. Venter et al are already at initial stages of such technologies. We have very good reason to infer from reliable sign to its clearly established cause, intelligent design as process. In turn that points to intelligent agent as designer. There are no good inductive grounds for dismissing evidence in hand on what boils down to a hyperskeptical demand to separately establish the existence of a designer. The aim of such an argument is clearly to artificially block what is actually a clear case of logical, inductive [modern sense] inference. KFkairosfocus
March 23, 2018
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EMH,
in this case X (intelligence) is without mathematically modeled content. Science currently operates (regrettably) under a form of positivism, where the only scientifically meaningful statements are quantifiable ones.
However, mathematically modelled content is not a criterion of establishing empirical reality. Indeed, absent intelligence, there is no mathematics. The attempted criterion is incoherent. Indeed, conscious intelligence is a first truth of our mental lives and is there before not only Mathematics but Science begins. To simply observe what intelligence routinely does -- create FSCO/I -- that goes beyond what blind chance and mechanical necessity on the gamut of the observed cosmos credibly can, is itself a key observation. One, with powerful implications. KFkairosfocus
March 23, 2018
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@BA The upshot of what I said is that Darwinism is also not very scientific as there is not agreed upon mathematical model. Whenever a model is proposed then Dr. Ewert and Dr. Marks show why it cannot create information. So, the horns of the dilemma are either both Darwinism and ID are not science, or they both are. It cannot be Darwinism is science and ID is not, because they both suffer from the same quantification objection.EricMH
March 23, 2018
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JVL: "ONLY during that time? No design implementation before or since?" No, of course! That was just one example. So, let's be more complete. The design for LUCA (OOL) took place on our planet, more or less between 4 billion years ago and 3.5 billion years ago. The design for eukaryotes is still less well localized, probably about 2 billion years ago. The main design for metazoa and the basic phyla took place, very likely, at the Cambrian explosion. For the transition to vertebrates, I have already given an estimate. The design for the transition to mammals took place about 100 million years ago. The design for the transition to humans took place in the last few million years. These are just some of the major events. But, as I have always said, each time that a new protein superfamily appears in evolutionary history, that is an act of design. And we have about 2000 different protein superfamilies. So, is design continuous? No. The acts of design are punctuated, and they correspong to the rather sudden appearance of big amounts of new functional information that is added to what already exists. They are acts of engineering, limited in time, but occurring thorughout natural history. Is that clear enough?gpuccio
March 23, 2018
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ET But whatever the science of tomorrow may or may not uncover is of no consequence today. Really? You don't feel the necessity to accept that you might be incorrect?JVL
March 23, 2018
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gpuccio In a well defined window of evolutionary time, about 30 million years, approximately between 440 million years ago and 410 million years ago. A rather precise “when”. ONLY during that time? No design implementation before or since? So, life developed along strictly unguided lines before that and after that? I'm just trying to figure out what your hypothesis is. KF In this case, the best explanation is the known cause, and it remains for those who would overturn it that they put up a demonstrated credible actual cause as alternative. Yes but you have to have an agent around at the time . .. .what time are you saying? . . . to act. I don't see any evidence, aside from your hypothesised design which happened when? . . . for a designer. No designer means no design. Clearly. And if the design inference is wrong then . . . ID falls flat. ET And still nothing. If they had something then ID would be easily falsified and the evolutionists wouldn’t have had to lie and bluff their way through the Dover trial. Dispute the design inference all you want. But until you have something more than stuff happens and here we are all you are really doing is whining. This idea that the design assumption is the default is false. That assumes that a designer being around is more likely that one NOT being around. Aside from your contentious design inference there is no evidence of a designer being around ever. And you have no rigorous, scientific, method of design detection that you can show being used for known examples. The vast majority of working scientists deny the design inference. The vast majority of working scientists accept the evidence for another way for DNA to have arisen aside from some undefined designer to have done something at sometime. You can bitch and moan as much as you like but the onus is on you to provide extraordinary evidence for your extraordinary claim. Extraordinary because it subverts decades of work and research. You've got to have something really good and rock-solid to dislodge that.JVL
March 23, 2018
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Origenes - why not? It shows that logically there are several possible explanations for Y even if there is one known cause of Y. As Barry wrote, not maths required, jut good old-fashioned logic.Bob O'H
March 23, 2018
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Bob: To explain what is wrong? Indeed. See my comment 21.
Your comment in 21 does not argue against Barry's “if X is the only known cause of Y, then an instance of Y is evidence of X.” BTW your inability to abstract intelligence is not something to be proud of.Origenes
March 23, 2018
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@BA There is nothing wrong with the logic, but in this case X (intelligence) is without mathematically modeled content. Science currently operates (regrettably) under a form of positivism, where the only scientifically meaningful statements are quantifiable ones. Of course, this is self referentially incoherent, but that is how science operates for the most part. The more quantifiable and measurable, the more scientific. It is much harder to perform experiments and create technology from qualitative statements. We see something similar with color. Common sense would say Red is not a wavelength, the wavelength transmits Red to us, and we can see Red even without light, such as in dreams, in our imagination, pressing down on eyelids, etc. But science today cannot deal with such a concept. As far as science is concerned, Red is part of the electromagnetic spectrum. There is no scientific theory of my imagination of a Red apple. Despite the fact that Redness has an empirical effect through my desire to have a Red porsche. I want a Red porsche not because of a certain segment of the electromagnetic spectrum, but because I like how Red looks. If Red did not exist I would not choose to have my porsche absorb that certain portion of the electromagnetic spectrum. Likewise with intelligence. Common sense tells us intelligence is essentially a magical force in our world, capable of achieving things beyond any physical force, as well as controlling all physical forces, at least in theory. Yet, I could not walk into a physics lecture and declare that intelligence is the most fundamental force in our universe without anything more substantial. "Why couldn't intelligence be reducible to some physical phenomenon in the way we've reduced Red to electromagnetic waves?" would be the response. I face this issue acutely in my own research. If ID is correct, then the human mind must be able to do something spectacular in a computer science setting. But, demonstrating such in a highly quantitative and formal still eludes me, at least. On the other hand, it is very obvious that we have yet to create any algorithm that even has a hint of approaching the human mind's ability to write code. Many other quite trivial human tasks remain far out of reach of any algorithmic solution. Yet if I were to point to this fact to refute AI, a skeptic would just fire back with an 'algorithm of the gaps' objection and put me in the category of Bill Gates saying 64k is enough for anyone, or those who said man will never fly. So, that's a mouthful, but while ID is quite correct and persuasive in pointing out the impossibility of producing information through physical processes, it appears to me we are speaking past our interlocutors if we cannot put more substance behind what 'intelligence' is.EricMH
March 23, 2018
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Folks, There is a basic principle of scientific reasoning espoused by Newton and acknowledged by Lyell and Darwin, vera causa. It is an application and extension of the point that empty speculation is not permitted in science, but only things that have empirical warrant. In effect, it is this: in causally explaining effects we see when causes are not directly observed, we should entertain only those causes that we do see with demonstrated capability to cause the like effect. Its basis is obvious, as if we do not know of ANY cause capable of an effect we assign, genuinely unknown cause. When we see several known causes, we can only infer to the cluster and perhaps argue as to the best candidate. When we see only one known cause, then we have a unique candidate and often the link is strong enough that the effect is regarded as a SIGN of its cause. In this case, the best explanation is the known cause, and it remains for those who would overturn it that they put up a demonstrated credible actual cause as alternative. That is what we have here. Functionally specific, complex coherent organisation and associated information are observed. (FSCO/I.) This is a commonplace phenomenon, with trillions of instances directly observed. It has just one reliably observed cause, intelligently directed configuration. This already is a basis for a strong inference on sign. What we are seeing above is that the warranted best explanation (provisional as with all of science, but obviously highly reliable and confident) is repugnant to deeply entrenched ideologies. Lo and behold, two extraneous notions are put up to becloud the matter and artificially dilute its strength. But first, notice what else is under attack. For 2350++ years, we have routinely observed three major classes of cause: [a] lawlike mechanical necessity, [b] stochastically distributed chance, [c] intelligently directed configuration or art. This is actually deeply embedded in the practice of science, and thus when some imagined fourth way is inserted just to provide a barrier against inference to best explanation per known list of alternatives, that becomes a gross case of selective hyperskepticism willing to burn down scientific and statistical and inductive reasoning [modern sense, which takes in abduction] in order to protect a metaphysical commitment THAT HAS NO EMPIRICAL WARRANT ON THE MATTER AT STAKE. Now, we know that FSCO/I can be described in some language based on a chain of y/n q's as say autocad carries out. That means that we have the reduction to a binary digit string. When it is at least 500 - 1,000 bits, the blind search capacity of the observed sol system or cosmos will be grossly inadequate to carry out an appreciable search of the configuration space of possibilities. So, finding islands of FSCO/I in such a space by blind chance and/or mechanical necessity on the relevant gamut is utterly implausible. What we are therefore seeing is a back-handed concession of the strength of the design inference and of the associated explanatory filter. Objectors are forced to inject an empirically unjustified, utterly unknown, blind faith alternative to put up what is little more than a rhetorical obstacle. The game is over on the merits. As to oh, we only see human intelligence, that too is dubious. Humans are contingent and cannot exhaust the set of possible intelligences. Though, we demonstrate that intelligence is possible. Once intelligence is possible signs that reliably trace to such must be allowed to speak. In the world of life, in the set-up of the sol system that hosts such life, in the fine tuning of a cosmos that enables such life. Game over. KFkairosfocus
March 23, 2018
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What is wrong with “if X is the only known cause of Y, then an instance of Y is evidence of X.” No math required. Just good old fashioned logic.
To explain what is wrong? Indeed. See my comment 21.Bob O'H
March 23, 2018
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Barry@32, after making sure that my blaster and light saber were fully charged, I would contact the rebel alliance and ask for back up.Allan Keith
March 23, 2018
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