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A Materialist Gets It (Almost)

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A recent exchange with Allan Keith illustrates how materialists have allowed their intellect to become literally enslaved to their metaphysical commitments.  Allan proves one can understand the logic fully and even accept the logic.  And then turn right around and deny the conclusions compelled by the logic.  Let’s see how:

We will pick up the exchange where Allan has admitted that we have countless trillions of examples of functional complexity, semiosis and irreducible complexity caused by humans.

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Barry:

You admit that we have countless trillions of examples of functional complexity, semiosis and irreducible complexity from humans. So far so good.

What is it about humans that enables them to cause those things Allan? Intelligence.

So now we have countless trillions of examples of functional complexity, semiosis and irreducible complexity from humans on account of their intelligence.

We have observed exactly ZERO instances of any other cause accounting for functional complexity, semiosis and irreducible complexity.

Put it together Allan. Human intelligence is the only certainly known source of functional complexity, semiosis and irreducible complexity.

Therefore, when we see functional complexity, semiosis and irreducible complexity whose origins we do not know, we have a choice:

1 Attribute it to the only cause known with certainty to produce it, i.e. intelligence.
2 Attribute it to causes that have never been observed producing it.

Answer 1 is obviously best.

Allan responds:

Option 1 does not follow from your logic. The logical option 1 would be:  Attribute it to the only cause known with certainty to produce it, i.e. Human intelligence.

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I understand Allan’s metaphysical commitments prevent him from following the logic beyond a certain point, but his response is still very sad.  I wonder if he ever gets tired of wearing those blinkers.

What is wrong with Allan’s reply?  It steadfastly ignores the glaringly obvious fact that intelligence (not the more narrow “human intelligence”) is the causal factor.

In other words, the thing about humans that makes them a special case is not that they are a member of the Animalia kingdom, or the Chordata phylum, or the Mammalia class, or the Primate order, or the Homo genus or the Homo sapiens species.  The thing that distinguishes humans is reflected in the name of the species.  (“Homo sapiens” means literally “wise man.”) The distinguishing characteristic of the species is intelligence.

It is that characteristic and nothing else that accounts for the ability of Homo sapiens to cause functional complexity, semiosis and irreducible complexity.*

Now it is certainly true that the species Homo sapiens is the only species of which we have observational evidence that it causes functional complexity, semiosis and irreducible complexity.  Allan seems to believe that fact compels the conclusion that we can infer only “human design” from an observed instance of functional complexity, semiosis and irreducible complexity.

Nonsense.  Not even Allan’s fellow materialists agree with him:

BEN STEIN: What do you think is the possibility that Intelligent Design might turn out to be the answer to some issues in genetics or in Darwinian evolution.

DAWKINS: Well, it could come about in the following way. It could be that at some earlier time, somewhere in the universe, a civilization evolved, probably by some kind of Darwinian means, probably to a very high level of technology, and designed a form of life that they seeded onto perhaps this planet. Um, now that is a possibility, and an intriguing possibility. And I suppose it’s possible that you might find evidence for that if you look at the details of biochemistry, molecular biology, you might find a signature of some sort of designer. . . . And that Designer could well be a higher intelligence from elsewhere in the universe.  But that higher intelligence would itself have had to have come about by some explicable, or ultimately explicable process. It couldn’t have just jumped into existence spontaneously. That’s the point

Dawkins understands, as Allan apparently does not, that it is the intelligence, not its instantiation in any particular species, that is important when it comes to inferring design.

UPDATE:

To his credit, Allan now admits the obvious:

Design inference is based almost solely on a comparison to human design. This can certainly be used to infer design in biology . . .

But he cannot resist adding an unwarranted disclaimer:

. . . but with only one known source of intelligence as a frame of reference, the inference is weak. That is statistical reality speaking, not me. But even a weak inference can strengthen support for ID if there were other avenues of examination that support ID.

Why does Allan consider the inference weak?  Because his metaphysical commitments, not logic, compel that conclusion.  Again, here is the logic:

  1. Object X exhibits functional complexity, semiosis and irreducible complexity.
  2. The ONLY KNOWN CAUSE of functional complexity, semiosis and irreducible complexity is design by an intelligent agent.
  3. Inferring to best explanation, the only known cause of functional complexity, semiosis and irreducible complexity (i.e., intelligent design) is the cause of the functional complexity, semiosis or  irreducible complexity in Object X.

Allan insists the inference is “weak,” even though he admits the inference as to cause is to the only known cause of the phenomenon.  Why?  Statistics.  Nonsense.  It is not a statistical analysis.  It is a logical analysis.

 

 

 

_____________

*Let’s not get bogged down with beavers and bees.  The international space station is obviously different in kind and not merely degree from a beaver dam.  Anyone who denies this disqualifies themselves from being considered serious.

 

Comments
Barry @ 32 - My reaction would be "oh, that's interesting and worth investigating further". From what you describe, I couldn't rule out intelligent design, but I'm not sure I could rule out other things either.Bob O'H
March 23, 2018
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Eric, What is wrong with "if X is the only known cause of Y, then an instance of Y is evidence of X." No math required. Just good old fashioned logic. Also, your response reminds me of the A-Mats who say "if you cannot tell me exactly how many bits of information are in a given instance of claimed complex specified information, then you have no right to claim CSI is present." That statement is just this side of insane, but they push it anyway. How is what you are saying different? And yes, I do in fact deny your assertion that for something to qualify as scientific it must be modeled mathematically. Barry Arrington
March 23, 2018
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Yes, we observe what humans can do. Yes, we observe what other animals can do. And yes, we observe what nature, together with time, can do. We have knowledge of cause and effect relationships. We use that knowledge to help us determine the cause of whatever it is we are investigating. And if we follow Newton's four rules of scientific reasoning we should be able to come to a knowledgeable inference. We accept the fact that like all scientific inferences future knowledge may upset it. But whatever the science of tomorrow may or may not uncover is of no consequence today.ET
March 23, 2018
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A few thoughts for the irrational atheists posting here: The Discoveries of Modern Science Have Rendered Contemporary Atheism Irrational Yet there are those still willing to take contemporary atheism seriously, mostly those who are more committed to being accepted by atheistic academia than they are to promulgating rational truth. For the fact is that modern science now has very well corroborated evidence that the natural universe (time, space, matter, and energy) had a beginning. That fact making it irrational to take the very unscientific position that things popped into existence uncaused, from true nothingness (nothingness in terms of the absence of time, space, matter, and energy), the rational person concludes that the natural universe must have been caused by a reality that transcends the natural, that is, by a supernatural reality that transcends time, space, matter and energy. Modern science now knows that even the simplest reproducing, single-celled life form consists of ultra-sophisticated, digital-information- based nanotechnology the functional complexity of which is light years beyond anything modern science knows how to build from scratch. It would be far easier to explain how a laptop computer might come about mindlessly and accidentally than to come up with a plausible explanation of how such beyond-our-own nanotechnology might have been produced that way. The computer you use everyday is crude technology compared to that of a living organism. Can your computer replicate itself, or even a simpler version of itself, using available resources? Can it build and install new parts for itself? Single-celled, reproducing life forms do all that and more utilizing digitally stored assembly instructions. Technology, by definition, is the result of the application of knowledge for a purpose. That is why technology never comes about mindlessly and accidentally. It is utterly obvious that life is technology that is astoundingly superior to our own, and therefore it must be the result of the application of knowledge (tremendously superior to our own) for a purpose. Denying this is like claiming that self-replicating robotic equipment might come about mindlessly and accidentally. It is irrational. More Certain Than Gravity There are individuals who, because they are extremely naive about what it takes to develop software, could be convinced that a given suite of functionally complex applications running on a computer actually came about mindlessly and accidentally. But there are very, very few individuals who would believe, in addition to that, that the computer itself came about mindlessly and accidentally. Yet that is basically what contemporary atheism is asking the world to believe. Life is a suite of complex applications running in an environment that was far more unlikely to be arrived at mindlessly and accidentally than were the computer and operating system required by any functionally complex software. Just how unlikely was it that the Big Bang would produce an environment where life was a possibility? Renowned physicist/mathematician Roger Penrose (Stephen Hawking and Penrose have co-authored books on physics), in his book The Road to Reality: A Complete Guide to the Laws of the Universe, calculates that the odds of the Big Bang mindlessly and accidentally producing a universe where life was a possibility were one in 10^10^123. The double exponent makes that number so large that one can have far more certainty that the universe was not a mindless accident than one can have that the laws of physics will continue to apply consistently to nature. So except, I suppose, for those who have all their possessions tied down just in case gravity stops working, it is now apparent that it is simply irrational to conclude that the universe and the living things within it are mindless accidents. Thus, God, in his perfect providence, has mocked the arrogant and darkened minds of the so-called Enlightenment with the results of militantly atheistic science’s own discoveries. It is too bad so few in academia seem to have noticed this, or worse, find it easier to deny the truth than to point out the irrationality of the atheistic establishment.harry
March 23, 2018
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@BA & GP, the issue is that science mathematical models can only describe the R hypothesis, or a gap. There is no model of I, beside just saying intelligence did it. So, insofar as modern science is driven by mathematical modeling, this is effectively the same as saying Pr{I} = 0, and so Pr{E,I} = 0. Thus, P{R}, no matter how small, as long as it is non-zero, is seen as the only viable route for current scientific discourse. Of course, you can object to mathematical model driven science, and its dictation of our worldview, but the other side will say, "Mathematical modeling is precisely what has lead to the glories of the modern world. Do you want to drag us back to the dark ages?" This is the same reason Francis Bacon initially rejected final causality from scientific explanations, since philosophical speculation about final causality seemed so ineffective in his day. He kept formal causality, which is the mathematical modeling approach we have today. So, if we are really serious about ID being science, and not speculative philosophy, we need a mathematical model of I. Something that shows Francis Bacon was wrong in his rejection of teleological explanations.EricMH
March 23, 2018
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I concede (A) that it’s possible there is some unknown natural cause x that could account for the origin of life. However, (B) it’s also logically possible that there is some unknown intelligent cause y that could account for the origin of life. Logically there is no difference between A and B (both are logically possible) since we do not know how life originated. However, if we scratch beneath the surface we discover that 'B some unknown intelligent cause' has more explanatory scope and power than A (that natural causes are sufficient) for the unique features which we find in every living cell. Even well-known atheists agree that living things have the appearance of design. For example, notice that all of the following quotes are from men who believe that evolution is a mindless and purposeless process. (ht: BA77)
“This appearance of purposefulness is pervasive in nature…. Accounting for this apparent purposefulness is a basic problem for any system of philosophy or of science.” George Gaylord Simpson – “The Problem of Plan and Purpose in Nature” – 1947 “…living organisms “appear to have been carefully and artfully designed” Richard C. Lewontin – Adaptation,” Scientific American, and Scientific American book ‘Evolution’ (September 1978) “Biologists must constantly keep in mind that what they see was not designed, but rather evolved.” Francis Crick – What Mad Pursuit – p. 138 (1990) “Organisms appear as if they had been designed to perform in an astonishingly efficient way, and the human mind therefore finds it hard to accept that there need be no Designer to achieve this” Francis Crick – What Mad Pursuit – p. 30 “Biology is the study of complicated things that give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose.” Richard Dawkins – The Blind Watchmaker (1996) p.1
If something appears to be designed isn’t it logically possible it really could be designed? The main premise then for an argument for design then can be stated very simply: If it looks designed, it really could be designed. However, again, when we look more deeply we find that there are some thing in living systems which are explained better by design than dysteleological natural processes.john_a_designer
March 23, 2018
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BA @ 19: "The best explanation remains the single known cause." This statement is true and should be uncontroversial, but even logic is undermined in a post-modern world.Truth Will Set You Free
March 23, 2018
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Allan Keith:
The argument is about inference based on comparison to human design.
Sometimes. And so what? It is called knowledge of cause and effect relationships. Outside of biology just look at the earth/ moon system. And think of how many just-so cosmic collisions would have had to have happened to get it the way it is. If the earth didn't rotate we wouldn't have a magnetic field and the atmospheric gasses wouldn't get mixed. No life. No axis of rotation stabilizing moon and again no life. If the moon has too much mass the tides would be severe.
“The same narrow circumstances that allow us to exist also provide us with the best over all conditions for making scientific discoveries.” “The one place that has observers is the one place that also has perfect solar eclipses.” “There is a final, even more bizarre twist. Because of Moon-induced tides, the Moon is gradually receding from Earth at 3.82 centimeters per year. In ten million years will seem noticeably smaller. At the same time, the Sun’s apparent girth has been swelling by six centimeters per year for ages, as is normal in stellar evolution. These two processes, working together, should end total solar eclipses in about 250 million years, a mere 5 percent of the age of the Earth. This relatively small window of opportunity also happens to coincide with the existence of intelligent life. Put another way, the most habitable place in the Solar System yields the best view of solar eclipses just when observers can best appreciate them.”
"The Privileged Planet" extends the design inference beyond biology.ET
March 23, 2018
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JVL:
Not if your design inference is incorrect. Then the whole ID paradigm falls flat.
That holds for all design inferences. However given that materialists don't even know how to test their claims ID's inferences are very safe. If someone can show mother nature can produce a structure like Stonehenge then archaeologists will have a difficult task determining natural formations from artifacts.
Murders leave evidence behind aside from the crime.
Not always. Sometimes there isn't even a body.
Well, some people think there is another credible explanation and they’ve been researching that explanation for 150 years now.
And still nothing. If they had something then ID would be easily falsified and the evolutionists wouldn't have had to lie and bluff their way through the Dover trial. Dispute the design inference all you want. But until you have something more than stuff happens and here we are all you are really doing is whining.ET
March 23, 2018
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Allan and Bob: I here quote WJM's question above.
Regarding cellular machinery: if we landed on a planet in a different star system, and on an otherwise barren planet we found a massive, self-sustaining and self-replicating metallic machine comprised mainly of alloyed materials found nowhere else on the planet other than as a material manufactured by the machine for it’s own duplication and repair, what would be the materialist’s reaction? Further, what if the machine was run by a library of code and a code-processing system? Would they accept the machine as evidence of non-human intelligent design?
How would you answer it?Barry Arrington
March 23, 2018
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JVL doubles down on Cicero’s dictum:
I don’t see any evidence (aside from the disputed designed things) that there were any designers around
Barry Arrington
March 23, 2018
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Bob O'H: Your list: 1. humans 2. an unknown intelligence 3. another unknown cause OK. But the positive argument for design is not only based on the empirical connection between functional complexity and human design. It is also supported by a well defined rationale, which adds credibility to the connection. The rationale is the following: there is a precise reason why a conscious intelligent purposeful agent can overcome the probabilistic barriers that make the generation of complex functional information impossible in non design systems. The reason is that a conscious intelligent purposeful agent can have the two following subjective experiences: a) The experience of understanding meanings b) The experience of having purposes. Those two experiences are the secret. They make it possible to define functions and to apply reasonings to meanings linked to those functions. That's why conscious intelligent purposeful beings can develop machines, software, language, while non design systems cannot. That idea is not a simple assumption: it can be easily derived by a careful observation of how our personal consciouness works when we design objects, and generate new complex functional information. The experiences of meaning and purpose are always central to the process. So, while your list is potentially valid, option number 3 is not supported by any rationale (and, of course, by any empirical observation). Instead, option number 2 is supported by the rationale I have descirbed, and by the observation of the link between conscious experiences and design. So, if option 1 is unlikely, option 2 is by far the best explanation. But, to be precise, it should read as follows: 2) some unknown conscious intelligent purposeful beinggpuccio
March 23, 2018
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Allan, have you let the institutions of science know that they are wasting their time looking for narrow-band radio waves from the stars? I'm sure they be disheartened to know if they detect such a signal, they'd have nothing (given that radio transmitters are only a product of human intelligence). It's probably best to go ahead and face the facts now and get it over with.Upright BiPed
March 23, 2018
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JVL: "Well, some people think there is another credible explanation and they’ve been researching that explanation for 150 years now." So, they should be able to put on some active defense of their theory, against the falsifying arguments I have orivided and discussed in my OPs. Would you like to try? "when do you think design was implemented? You haven’t said. I’m not sure what your design hypothesis is actually . . . that it happened? But no when?" Not true. the when is clearly indicated in all my reasonings. For example, I have dedicated a whole OP (and a lot of work) to a quantification of the engineering that took place at the transition to vertebrates. Here it is: The amazing level of engineering in the transition to the vertebrate proteome: a global analysis https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/the-amazing-level-of-engineering-in-the-transition-to-the-vertebrate-proteome-a-global-analysis/ If you read that OP, you will say that I have made an evaluation of the total engineering in relation to the whole human genome which took place during that transition: 1,764,427 bits When did that design take place? In a well defined window of evolutionary time, about 30 million years, approximately between 440 million years ago and 410 million years ago. A rather precise "when".gpuccio
March 23, 2018
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Barry,
Again, the argument is not a statistical one. It not a probabilistic one. It is a logical one. Why is that so hard to grasp Eric?
The argument is about inference based on comparison to human design. When I Google "Inference Testing" all of the hits on the first page include "Statistical" in the title. Anyone can make an inference about anything. But without incorporating statistics or probability, you can't make any statement about the strength of the inference. Given that the inference is based on comparison to a single source of intelligence, there is no way to claim that it is a strong inference. But, again, this does not mean that ID cannot be a strong argument. Just that if you rely solely on the inference from human design, which much of ID is based on, the argument is weak.Allan Keith
March 23, 2018
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gpuccio As there is no other credible explanation for those objects, the scientific approach is to accept design as the best theory. Because design has the explanatory power needed for functional information, and all the rest. To falsify that perfectly viable theory, it’s you who should demonstrate that there were “no designers around”. At present, that’s only the personal belief of some people. Well, some people think there is another credible explanation and they've been researching that explanation for 150 years now. I don't see any evidence (aside from the disputed designed things) that there were any designers around . . . when do you think design was implemented? You haven't said. I'm not sure what your design hypothesis is actually . . . that it happened? But no when? ET It is true and the presence of the intelligent design is evidence there was an intelligent designer around at the time. Not if your design inference is incorrect. Then the whole ID paradigm falls flat. Mung How many murderers stick around and wait for the police to show up? Murders leave evidence behind aside from the crime. Also, we know there are murders/designers around to commit the murder. And if your designers left then . . . where did they go? And when? Look, the design inference is contentious, i.e. the vast majority of working scientists dispute its validity. And because there is no other evidence of any kind of designer being around at the time. . . . when do you claim design was implemented? . . . . it all sounds a bit shaky. You've built the whole ID edifice on design detection without having a clear, useable mathematical method to display. That house is built on sand and not stone. I know about Dr Dembski's 2005 paper and I have yet to see anyone compute some of the terms in that formula. If you want to rest on that you've got to show how it can be used by applying it to examples; showing that it has good, robust results that are unlikely to be false positives or negatives.JVL
March 23, 2018
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It is now widely accepted that there are three distinct approaches to logic: (1) inductive logic, (2) deductive logic and (3) abductive logic. In his 1998 article, A New Design Argument, Charles B. Thaxton argued that when we consider the problem of origins, specifically the origin of life, we have to rely on abductive reasoning or the inference to the best explanation.
Reasoning from experience and linking cause to effect developed over several centuries and became a recognized scientific method of causal inference. It has been a part of science since the Scientific Revolution, which culminated in the great synthesis of Isaac Newton in the seventeenth century. Over the course of the development of modern experimental science, Western culture learned to rely on sensory experience to gain knowledge about natural phenomena. By following experience scientists learned to infer causes from effects, i.e., to work backward from the character of the effects to the cause. A cause is that necessary and sufficient condition that alone can give rise to the occurrence of a given event. And it does not matter if the cause is natural or intelligent. In the words of David Hume, who gave a formal analysis of this approach, "From causes which appear similar we expect similar effects." (Emphasis his.) Later in the same book he added, "the same rule holds, whether the cause assigned be brute unconscious matter, or a rational intelligent being." The inferential methods we usually learn in school are deductive, i.e., inference from the general to the particular, and inductive, i.e., inference from the particular to the general. There has always been a third method of inference, though not clearly described and formally analyzed until the 1870s, this being abductive, i.e., inference from experience. The method of abductive inference is particularly important in the historical sciences, reasoning backward from phenomena to the cause… The abductive method gives us a way to approach phenomena and be completely open to either natural or intelligent causes. The assignment of causal category depends on the character of the effects. To illustrate the method, suppose we are detectives investigating someone's death. Is this a case of death by natural causes (accident) or death by design (murder or suicide)? We do not know the answer in advance. An important purpose of the investigation is to determine whether this was a case of intelligent cause (murder or suicide) or natural death. We need a method that is open to either possibility. The abductive method of reasoning backward from the effects considers and evaluates various candidate natural and intelligent cause hypotheses, and eliminates those that do not agree with experience. Such openness to the full spectrum of natural and intelligent cause scenarios gives confidence that the abductive inference does yield the best explanation. Despite the above explanation, some people, especially among scientists, suggest that science may not entertain intelligent causes. This notion is certainly mistaken. The abductive inference is very much at home in modern science. Retrospective causal reasoning is routinely used by NASA scientists as they explore the heavens looking for signs of intelligence in their SETI (Search for Extra-Terrestrial Intelligence) program.
http://www.discovery.org/a/137 So called origin science, which Thaxton argues (correctly IMO) did not exist prior to the 18th and 19th Century, does not and cannot rely on inductive inferences. The question of origins rests totally on an unproven metaphysical assumption that “natural causes” alone are sufficient to explain not only the origin of life but the origin of the universe as well as mind and consciousness. However, a metaphysical assumptions cannot be proven “scientifically.” PS See my following post where I quote Thaxton about why the origin of life poses unique challenges for “origin science.” https://uncommondescent.com/origin-of-life/jad-on-self-replicating-machines-and-ool/#comment-654305john_a_designer
March 23, 2018
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if we accept that the only known cause of functional complexity, semiosis and irreducible complexity is design by an intelligent agent
It *is* the only known cause, Bob. Andrewasauber
March 23, 2018
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asauber - I had said that this would be the list if we accept that the only known cause of functional complexity, semiosis and irreducible complexity is design by an intelligent agent.Bob O'H
March 23, 2018
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1. humans 2. an unknown intelligence 3. another unknown cause
Bob, I'm glad you were astute enough to exclude evolution from this list, as it would be silly to include it. Andrewasauber
March 23, 2018
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But the only known cause is human intelligence - we don't know of any other intelligences capable of causing functional complexity, semiosis and irreducible complexity(*)! As a matter of logic, if we accept that the only known cause of functional complexity, semiosis and irreducible complexity is design by an intelligent agent then when we see functional complexity, semiosis or irreducible complexity we have to conclude that the cause was either 1. humans 2. an unknown intelligence 3. another unknown cause So if the best explanation remains the single known cause then we are back to Allan's point. Otherwise we have to invoke an unknown cause, whether it be an unknown intelligence (very Star Trek!) or something else. I think the point is that if you are going to invoke non-human intelligence, then you have to have some other evidence for this intelligence, otherwise you are bootstrapping. (*) actually, I'm not sure this is true, but other intelligences that may be able to use semiosis, e.g. parrots, seem to be only able to do this at a very basic level.Bob O'H
March 23, 2018
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Barry @16
If you admit that the only known cause of functional complexity, semiosis and irreducible complexity is design by an intelligent agent, the presence of an object exhibiting functional complexity, semiosis or irreducible complexity is, itself, proof of design by an intelligent agent. And if we have proof of design by intelligent agent, it follows that we have proof of the presence of an intelligent agent at the time the design was implemented.
Extremely well put, as was your initial post. But it will be to no avail for those who lack the objectivity rational analysis requires. There is an inclination in all of to believe that which we want to be true, rather than what logic demands we believe is true. Atheistic materialists never overcome this inclination, which is why they remain atheistic materialists. Atheism is irrationality that springs from a lack of objectivity. It has always been this way. Fourth century bishop Gregory of Nyssa explained the necessity of the existence of the non-material soul capable of rationality this way:
A Definition of the soul is then given, for the sake of clearness in the succeeding discussion. It is a created, living, intellectual being, with the power, as long as it is provided with organs, of sensuous perception. For “the mind sees,” not the eye. ... The objection that the “organic machine” of the body produces all thought is met by the instance of the water-organ. Such machines, if thought were really an attribute of matter, ought to build themselves spontaneously: whereas they are a direct proof of an invisible thinking power in man.
The water organ is a kind of pipe organ powered by water that was first invented by the ancient Greeks in the 3rd century BC. It was "high-tech" in its time. Today we would say "If thought were really an attribute of matter, computers ought to build themselves spontaneously." A contemporary version of Gregory's argument for the existence of the non-material mind (which it is obvious was required to bring about life's functional complexity, semiosis and irreducible complexity) might go something like this: If you imagine a bright red apple you see one in your mind's eye. If we were able to observe and analyze the electro-chemical activity of your brain right down to the last subatomic particle, we would find no image of an apple. We would find electro-chemical activity that corresponded to your imagining a bright red apple, but no image of one in your physical brain, similar to the way the binary data in a gif file corresponds to an image, but is not the image itself. Yet an image of the apple exists. You see it. Where is that image's physical location? It has none because its existence is non-material. It has always been obvious that there are non-material realities; strict materialism has always been irrational. It is also obvious that intelligence and its ability to perceive reality is not an attribute of matter, but springs from a non-material reality. With this in mind, the truth of your remark is clear:
Allan seems to believe that fact compels the conclusion that we can infer only “human design” from an observed instance of functional complexity, semiosis and irreducible complexity. Nonsense.
Those capable of objectivity will recognize the truth of your remarks.harry
March 23, 2018
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Bob, "Or it could be an unknown cause" Which does not affect the conclusion one whit Bob. The best explanation remains the single known cause.Barry Arrington
March 23, 2018
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08:19 AM
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If you admit that the only known cause of functional complexity, semiosis and irreducible complexity is design by an intelligent agent, the presence of an object exhibiting functional complexity, semiosis or irreducible complexity is, itself, proof of design by an intelligent agent.
Or it could be an unknown cause.Bob O'H
March 23, 2018
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07:44 AM
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But isn't that obvious?Mung
March 23, 2018
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07:38 AM
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JVL proves Cicero's dictum: JVL: Even if it is true that the ONLY KNOWN CAUSE of functional complexity, semiosis and irreducible complexity is design by an intelligent agent, you haven’t shown the presence of an intelligent agent at the time you claim design was implemented. Cicero: There is no statement so absurd that no philosopher will make it. Let me spell it out for JVL. If you admit that the only known cause of functional complexity, semiosis and irreducible complexity is design by an intelligent agent, the presence of an object exhibiting functional complexity, semiosis or irreducible complexity is, itself, proof of design by an intelligent agent. And if we have proof of design by intelligent agent, it follows that we have proof of the presence of an intelligent agent at the time the design was implemented.Barry Arrington
March 23, 2018
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07:15 AM
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JVL:
No designer arounds means there couldn’t have been design.
LoL! How many murderers stick around and wait for the police to show up? Homicide Detective: Well, no murderers here, so this can't have been a murder. Doh!Mung
March 23, 2018
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07:00 AM
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JVL:
Even if that were true (and it’s only a hypothesis) then you haven’t shown the presence of an intelligent agent at the time you claim design was implemented.
It is true and the presence of the intelligent design is evidence there was an intelligent designer around at the time. And it still remains that the anti-ID side has all of the power. They can refute any given design inference just by stepping up and demonstrating non-telic processes can produce what we claim was intelligently designed. Whining about it isn't going to get it done.ET
March 23, 2018
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05:23 AM
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EMH, we already know that given the configuration space of even something ogf complexity 500 - 1,000 bits, that on teh gamut of the observed sol system to cosmos, it is maximally implausible that any island of complex function would be found per the needle in haystack search challenge. Try 10^13 - 15 searches per second and 10^57 to 10^80 atoms as observers, for 10^17 s and see how search to space goes to negligible scope. That is, you are appealing to statistical miracle. The reason such is inferred is that it is metaphysically preferred. In fact the logic of being points to a necessary being as world root, and that we are morally governed and responsible, rationally free creatures points not only to intelligence but to moral intelligence as world root, defining the necessary being. Odds of a necessary being on an observed actual world are effectively 1. KFkairosfocus
March 23, 2018
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05:08 AM
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Regarding cellular machinery: if we landed on a planet in a different star system, and on an otherwise barren planet we found a massive, self-sustaining and self-replicating metallic machine comprised mainly of alloyed materials found nowhere else on the planet other than as a material manufactured by the machine for it's own duplication and repair, what would be the materialist's reaction? Further, what if the machine was run by a library of code and a code-processing system? Would they accept the machine as evidence of non-human intelligent design? If they found no archaeological evidence on the planet supporting the idea that an intelligent race of beings at any time in history constructed that machine, would they turn to naturalistic explanations? Would they insist that somehow humans had been there before and left the machine without any other trace of their presence? Or, would they come to the conclusion that an intelligent agency of some sort designed and built the machine, even though they didn't know what that intelligent agency was? Regarding the fine-tuning of the universe: what if we were exploring space in distance areas of the galaxy and came across a habitat floating in space, perfectly balanced to be self-supporting for a rich and diverse spectrum of life. Let's say this habitat is enclosed by some form of unknown energy with no apparent source. Everything in the habitat is finely tuned for the flourishing and preservation of that life. Would the materialist conclude that there must be countless other such habitats floating around, produced by some as yet unknown unintelligent process, each tuned differently and most not capable of supporting life? Or, would they conclude that some intelligent agency must have designed and built the habitat for the purpose of sustaining life? Would they insist other humans must have built it? Would they ever even imagine that a non-human intelligence might be responsible? It's easy to recognize that what is going on with many materialists is nothing more than an ideologically driven aversion to the obviously warranted conclusion of non-human intelligent design in both cases. We're not living in the Middle Ages; non-human intelligence is not a difficult or taboo concept to imagine. One doesn't have to become a Christian and accept Jesus as their personal savior and swallow the Bible on faith (or do something similar with any other religious or spiritual view) in order to simply admit the obvious: it appears that our universe was designed and finely tuned for life, and it appears that life itself is the product of highly advanced intelligent design. One doesn't even have to ideologically commit to that belief simply to admit that, from the best evidence we have now, this is the most logical conclusion. Yet, materialists contort themselves as if they are headed toward some horrible, painful experience simply by admitting this. They do similar such contortions when confronted by the hard problem of consciousness and the problem of subjective morality, when admitting that objective morality must exist, and admitting that consciousness exists beyond the material, commits them to no spiritual or religious doctrine whatsoever. It's just admitting what evidence indicates and what is logically necessary. Why fight it tooth and nail? Why contort, obfuscate, and run from these things? Why deny the obvious and the logical to the point of saying such foolish things like "consciousness is an illusion" or "morality is subjective", when they cannot even act or speak as if such things are true? Materialists: what are you so afraid of? Do you think you are the last line of defense against an oppressive theocracy just waiting for you to agree to these basic premises before they appoint inquisitors? Do you think that if you give an inch, the next thing you know we'll be prepping the military for a global crusade? What is it that drives you to deny evidence and logic, when it doesn't even require you commit to any religious perspective?William J Murray
March 23, 2018
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05:04 AM
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