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A Materialist Gets It (Almost)

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A recent exchange with Allan Keith illustrates how materialists have allowed their intellect to become literally enslaved to their metaphysical commitments.  Allan proves one can understand the logic fully and even accept the logic.  And then turn right around and deny the conclusions compelled by the logic.  Let’s see how:

We will pick up the exchange where Allan has admitted that we have countless trillions of examples of functional complexity, semiosis and irreducible complexity caused by humans.

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Barry:

You admit that we have countless trillions of examples of functional complexity, semiosis and irreducible complexity from humans. So far so good.

What is it about humans that enables them to cause those things Allan? Intelligence.

So now we have countless trillions of examples of functional complexity, semiosis and irreducible complexity from humans on account of their intelligence.

We have observed exactly ZERO instances of any other cause accounting for functional complexity, semiosis and irreducible complexity.

Put it together Allan. Human intelligence is the only certainly known source of functional complexity, semiosis and irreducible complexity.

Therefore, when we see functional complexity, semiosis and irreducible complexity whose origins we do not know, we have a choice:

1 Attribute it to the only cause known with certainty to produce it, i.e. intelligence.
2 Attribute it to causes that have never been observed producing it.

Answer 1 is obviously best.

Allan responds:

Option 1 does not follow from your logic. The logical option 1 would be:  Attribute it to the only cause known with certainty to produce it, i.e. Human intelligence.

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I understand Allan’s metaphysical commitments prevent him from following the logic beyond a certain point, but his response is still very sad.  I wonder if he ever gets tired of wearing those blinkers.

What is wrong with Allan’s reply?  It steadfastly ignores the glaringly obvious fact that intelligence (not the more narrow “human intelligence”) is the causal factor.

In other words, the thing about humans that makes them a special case is not that they are a member of the Animalia kingdom, or the Chordata phylum, or the Mammalia class, or the Primate order, or the Homo genus or the Homo sapiens species.  The thing that distinguishes humans is reflected in the name of the species.  (“Homo sapiens” means literally “wise man.”) The distinguishing characteristic of the species is intelligence.

It is that characteristic and nothing else that accounts for the ability of Homo sapiens to cause functional complexity, semiosis and irreducible complexity.*

Now it is certainly true that the species Homo sapiens is the only species of which we have observational evidence that it causes functional complexity, semiosis and irreducible complexity.  Allan seems to believe that fact compels the conclusion that we can infer only “human design” from an observed instance of functional complexity, semiosis and irreducible complexity.

Nonsense.  Not even Allan’s fellow materialists agree with him:

BEN STEIN: What do you think is the possibility that Intelligent Design might turn out to be the answer to some issues in genetics or in Darwinian evolution.

DAWKINS: Well, it could come about in the following way. It could be that at some earlier time, somewhere in the universe, a civilization evolved, probably by some kind of Darwinian means, probably to a very high level of technology, and designed a form of life that they seeded onto perhaps this planet. Um, now that is a possibility, and an intriguing possibility. And I suppose it’s possible that you might find evidence for that if you look at the details of biochemistry, molecular biology, you might find a signature of some sort of designer. . . . And that Designer could well be a higher intelligence from elsewhere in the universe.  But that higher intelligence would itself have had to have come about by some explicable, or ultimately explicable process. It couldn’t have just jumped into existence spontaneously. That’s the point

Dawkins understands, as Allan apparently does not, that it is the intelligence, not its instantiation in any particular species, that is important when it comes to inferring design.

UPDATE:

To his credit, Allan now admits the obvious:

Design inference is based almost solely on a comparison to human design. This can certainly be used to infer design in biology . . .

But he cannot resist adding an unwarranted disclaimer:

. . . but with only one known source of intelligence as a frame of reference, the inference is weak. That is statistical reality speaking, not me. But even a weak inference can strengthen support for ID if there were other avenues of examination that support ID.

Why does Allan consider the inference weak?  Because his metaphysical commitments, not logic, compel that conclusion.  Again, here is the logic:

  1. Object X exhibits functional complexity, semiosis and irreducible complexity.
  2. The ONLY KNOWN CAUSE of functional complexity, semiosis and irreducible complexity is design by an intelligent agent.
  3. Inferring to best explanation, the only known cause of functional complexity, semiosis and irreducible complexity (i.e., intelligent design) is the cause of the functional complexity, semiosis or  irreducible complexity in Object X.

Allan insists the inference is “weak,” even though he admits the inference as to cause is to the only known cause of the phenomenon.  Why?  Statistics.  Nonsense.  It is not a statistical analysis.  It is a logical analysis.

 

 

 

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*Let’s not get bogged down with beavers and bees.  The international space station is obviously different in kind and not merely degree from a beaver dam.  Anyone who denies this disqualifies themselves from being considered serious.

 

Comments
ET Even Larry Moran says the genetic code is a real code just like Morse code. I willing to consider that Larry Moran might be wrong. Everybody makes mistakes. More likely he was unaware of the strict definition of code. It's kind of like 'natural selection'. Not the best choice of words but most people know what it means. And JVL cannot say I'm not doing the research. I don't know how far they've gotten. When data and results are still being collected it's best to wait and see.JVL
March 26, 2018
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Even Larry Moran says the genetic code is a real code just like Morse code. Testable hypotheses- what are the testable hypotheses for blind and mindless processes producing the genetic code? If JVL cannot say then that exposes the bankrupt nature of his “arguments”. And JVL cannot sayET
March 26, 2018
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EugeneS Ok, he does not contradict himself then. However, it is very, very clear to me that he is wrong ???? Because . . . What if it isn't really a code? It's not becoming more and more of a possibility. When people point me to evidence for the claim (pre-biotic or biological) ‘evolution did it’ they typically refer me to carefully designed and controlled experiments. I have grown tired of looking into the literature. In well written papers there are no universal claims and the authors are being very honest and modest. For this reason, they are not that interesting, ok, they did this and that, and? In poorly written papers or propaganda books like ones by Dawkins, there is no actual science content, just grand claims. The amount of incompetence in such sources is so large that you feel you are wasting your time reading them. That's the way science works though. Not via books written for general readers. When you actually get to the details all of these universal claims somehow shrink into locality and insignificance. Guided search (rarely in vivo and more often just in silico!) is presented as random walk in a configuration space. Pathetic… Research happens one nibble or bite at a time. The whole meal might not be ready for a while. But it's exciting to see some promising work being done.JVL
March 26, 2018
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JVL "He makes that very, very clear." Ok, he does not contradict himself then. However, it is very, very clear to me that he is wrong :) "And that’s what the research seems to be saying. The ‘code’ has some basis in chemistry." When people point me to evidence for the claim that 'pre-biotic or biological evolution did it' they typically refer me to carefully designed and controlled experiments. I have grown tired of this. In well written papers, there are no universal claims and the authors are being very honest and modest. They safeguard their contributions by carefully posed questions. For this reason, they are not that interesting, ok, they did this and that, and? In poorly written papers or propaganda books like ones by Dawkins, there is no actual science content, just grand claims. The amount of incompetence in such sources is so large that you feel you are wasting your time reading them. I have posted here an OP about one such paper a long time ago. https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/selensky-shallit-koza-vs-artificial-life-simulations/ When you actually get to the details all of these universal claims somehow shrink into locality and insignificance. Guided search (rarely in vivo and more often just in silico!) is presented as random walk in a configuration space. Pathetic...Eugene S
March 26, 2018
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ET "Sheer dumb luck and contingent serendipity" Incidentally, yesterday I watched an old discussion between Lennox and Dawkins about "The God Delusion". Strikingly, what Dawkins put forward as 'explanations' was all based on sheer dumb luck and contingent serendipity. This is science by his standards. By current scientific problems he means anywhere where they don't have even a just-so story. "Who designed the designer?" is the most popular hit of this 'philosopher'. I guess Dawkins is sure that the outspoken stupidity of this 'argument' can debunk the whole of religious thought, no less ;)Eugene S
March 26, 2018
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EugeneS If this is all chemistry, which is in a nutshell what you are saying, you are contradicting yourself. One of Dr Venema's point: if it all comes down to pure chemistry and evolution via unguided processes then it's not a code. It's just called that. He makes that very, very clear. And that's what the research seems to be saying. The 'code' has some basis in chemistry. ET Testable hypotheses- what are the testable hypotheses for blind and mindless processes producing the genetic code? If JVL cannot say then that exposes the bankrupt nature of his “arguments”. I'm not the one doing the research and making the arguments but, if it's possible that the genetic code arose via chemistry and some modifications then that's pretty blind and mindless. I'm just pointing out ongoing research and some of its possible implications. I understand being skeptical and I'm not saying it's game over. But these are promising and ongoing areas of research. I will not guess where it will all end up. I would expect it to continue a bit further at least. I am going to be open minded and wait and see what happens. I realise that I may be waiting a while yet but I don't see the point of prejudicing myself against the eventual outcome.JVL
March 26, 2018
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EricMH @tribune7 @ 174, how do you know it takes intelligence to generate specified complexity? The more appropriate question is "How do you know if something is designed?" Still, how do we know it takes intelligence to generate specified complexity? There are three ways something can occur: Law, chance and design. Can something with CSI occur by law or chance? What?tribune7
March 26, 2018
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JVL "RNA molecules that act as as a ribozyme, or RNA enzyme." The key giveaway words here are "act as". In order to "act as", there must be a proper context established in the first place, that would allow for the role to be acted and interpreted by the rest of the system. This context is necessarily of formal nature. It is a protocol. RNA world hypothesis does not solve anything. Arguably, it even makes things worse. It is question begging. There is no way bottom up. At least nobody has come up with anything remotely convincing. "at the time when translation emerged" Ok, how? I keep encountering this magic word 'emerge' but every time its meaning escapes me. As Dawkins rightly pointed out in his famous agreement with intelligent design, it could not just 'pop into existence', could it? At the point of this putative translation emergence, there must already be a protocol according to which an establishment of the genetic many-to-one code occurred. By definition, code assumes physico-chemical arbitrariness. Like I said, nucleotide polymerization has almost no bias at all. If there was bias, there would be no code in the true sense. Code is called code because it specifies from among physical alternatives. If this is all chemistry, which is in a nutshell what you are saying, you are contradicting yourself.Eugene S
March 26, 2018
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Testable hypotheses- what are the testable hypotheses for blind and mindless processes producing the genetic code? If JVL cannot say then that exposes the bankrupt nature of his "arguments".ET
March 26, 2018
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Sheer dumb luck and contingent serendipity are not scientific mechanisms and those are all unguided/ blind watchmaker evolution has.ET
March 26, 2018
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JVL:
The work cited by Dr Venema in his series of posts shows that plausible mechanisms and pathways are being discovered.
That is your unscientific opinion.ET
March 26, 2018
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JVL:
Shall we wait a few years and see?
Wait as long as you want to. Right now all you have are promissory notes and no science.ET
March 26, 2018
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JVL:
Not knowing a way it could have arisen naturally is not the same as being sure it did not arise naturally.
Science doesn't do arguments from ignorance and that is all you have. Science can only allow so much luck and luck is all that you have.
Besides, are you going to stake you whole claim on a few narrowing ledges of things that couldn’t possibly have arisen by natural causes?
LoL! My ledges are as narrow as the universe. And yes, Stonehenge could not have possible arisen via natural processes. And Stonehenge is very, very, very simple compared with biology and biological systemsET
March 26, 2018
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ET You can’t even get to the part where the genetic code was allegedly just chemicals Shall we wait a few years and see? I'm opened minded.JVL
March 26, 2018
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ET Yes, JVL, you are gullible and hopeful. Maybe someday you will understand how science works. You need a mechanism- something besides “it just happened” The work cited by Dr Venema in his series of posts shows that plausible mechanisms and pathways are being discovered. Plausible. And since more work is bing done adding to that knowledge . . . . I don't know how far it will or can go but I wouldn't like to bet on it hitting a stop anytime soon.JVL
March 26, 2018
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As for replicating molecules- so far they have all been intelligently designed. And even given that nothing new evolved and Spiegelman's Monster remained unscathed. You can't even get to the part where the genetic code was allegedly just chemicalsET
March 26, 2018
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ET Evidence for Intelligent Design in the details of ATP synthase- the external tether: Take a look at the architecture and subunit composition of ATP synthase. Notice the external tethering that has nothing to do with the function of either subunit but without it there isn’t any ATP synthase. And it has to be the proper length. Details. Sometimes the devil is in the and sometimes the design inference is confirmed by them. A different topic but . . . Not knowing a way it could have arisen naturally is not the same as being sure it did not arise naturally. It's an exciting time to be alive; the depth of knowledge science is gaining into what once seemed impenetrably complex biological structures is amazing. Besides, are you going to stake you whole claim on a few narrowing ledges of things that couldn't possibly have arisen by natural causes?JVL
March 26, 2018
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Yes, JVL, you are gullible and hopeful. Maybe someday you will understand how science works. You need a mechanism- something besides "it just happened"ET
March 26, 2018
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ET Nonsense. No one knows if they are plausible And yes I have read Yarus and the follow up papers. They do not apply to biological life They cannot make their case so who cares? They don’t have any science so who cares? Forgive me if I put a certain amount of trust in working, publishing, research scientists who are confirming each other's work and building upon it year after year after year. I'm happy to consider some peer-reviewed published research that suggests otherwise.JVL
March 26, 2018
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Evidence for Intelligent Design in the details of ATP synthase- the external tether: Take a look at the architecture and subunit composition of ATP synthase. Notice the external tethering that has nothing to do with the function of either subunit but without it there isn’t any ATP synthase. And it has to be the proper length. Details. Sometimes the devil is in the and sometimes the design inference is confirmed by them.ET
March 26, 2018
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JVL:
Others, working research biologists, disagree.
They cannot make their case so who cares? They don't have any science so who cares?ET
March 26, 2018
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JVL:
You ask over and over for plausible paths or routes that led to the development of living structures. Researchers are finding them.
Nonsense. No one knows if they are plausible And yes I have read Yarus and the follow up papers. They do not apply to biological lifeET
March 26, 2018
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ET No, you are just gullible and hopeful. And Venema is stretching as his premises do not follow from the evidece Others, working research biologists, disagree.JVL
March 26, 2018
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JVL:
It appears they are heading that way.
You are just gullible and hopeful. They would have a better chance at showing Stonehenge was a natural rock formationET
March 26, 2018
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ET No one has ever demonstrated that Yarus’ work applies to living organisms. We already know that protein formation has to happen in a timely manner and Yarus’ work doesn’t come close. You ask over and over for plausible paths or routes that led to the development of living structures. Researchers are finding them. Have you read Dr Yarus's research? Or the follow-on work done by others?JVL
March 26, 2018
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JVL:
Dr Venema makes a strong case that the genetic ‘code’ could have, at least partially, arisen via natural processes.
No, you are just gullible and hopeful. And Venema is stretching as his premises do not follow from the evideceET
March 26, 2018
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ET If someone could demonstrate that the genetic code arose via blind and mindless processes they would win a Nobel Prize. They would also have a great chance at winning over 10 million dollars. Seeing that no one has won either is evidence no one has ever done so. It appears they are heading that way. No one is saying it's been done yet. But it's looking better and better. Pure chemistry.JVL
March 26, 2018
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No one has ever demonstrated that Yarus' work applies to living organisms. We already know that protein formation has to happen in a timely manner and Yarus' work doesn't come close.ET
March 26, 2018
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ET Already have, you lose. And you cannot make your case Dr Venema makes a strong case that the genetic 'code' could have, at least partially, arisen via natural processes. And he discusses how the initial research is now being built upon by others. Just one excerpt:
Within the folded structure of ribosomes, several amino acids were found in close association with some of their possible anticodons. Note that within a ribosome, the RNA components are not translated—they are untranslated RNA molecules that act as as a ribozyme, or RNA enzyme. The protein components come from different DNA sequences that are transcribed into RNA and then translated into protein before they join the ribosome complex. As such, the RNA components and the protein components of a ribosome are separate pieces—yet these proteins have some amino acids that are attracted to their anticodon sequences within the RNA components. So, even though these attractions are not useful for translation purposes, they are present within the ribosome structure. These results strongly support the hypothesis that interactions between amino acids and anticodons were biologically important at the time when translation emerged—since they are in large measure determining the three-dimensional structure of what is arguably the most important biochemical complex in life as we know it. Moreover, these results give strong experimental support for the idea that the genetic code was shaped by chemical interactions at its origin and is not a chemically arbitrary code. In response to these results, as well as the prior work by Yarus, a third research group has extended this type of analysis to the protein sets of entire organisms—and found that this pattern of correspondences between amino acids and their codons is widespread across whole genomes. This pattern—first identified by the Yarus group—has now been confirmed by the work of many other scientists, and it continues to make successful predictions.
JVL
March 26, 2018
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If someone could demonstrate that the genetic code arose via blind and mindless processes they would win a Nobel Prize. They would also have a great chance at winning over 10 million dollars. Seeing that no one has won either is evidence no one has ever done so.ET
March 26, 2018
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