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A Materialist Gets It (Almost)

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A recent exchange with Allan Keith illustrates how materialists have allowed their intellect to become literally enslaved to their metaphysical commitments.  Allan proves one can understand the logic fully and even accept the logic.  And then turn right around and deny the conclusions compelled by the logic.  Let’s see how:

We will pick up the exchange where Allan has admitted that we have countless trillions of examples of functional complexity, semiosis and irreducible complexity caused by humans.

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Barry:

You admit that we have countless trillions of examples of functional complexity, semiosis and irreducible complexity from humans. So far so good.

What is it about humans that enables them to cause those things Allan? Intelligence.

So now we have countless trillions of examples of functional complexity, semiosis and irreducible complexity from humans on account of their intelligence.

We have observed exactly ZERO instances of any other cause accounting for functional complexity, semiosis and irreducible complexity.

Put it together Allan. Human intelligence is the only certainly known source of functional complexity, semiosis and irreducible complexity.

Therefore, when we see functional complexity, semiosis and irreducible complexity whose origins we do not know, we have a choice:

1 Attribute it to the only cause known with certainty to produce it, i.e. intelligence.
2 Attribute it to causes that have never been observed producing it.

Answer 1 is obviously best.

Allan responds:

Option 1 does not follow from your logic. The logical option 1 would be:  Attribute it to the only cause known with certainty to produce it, i.e. Human intelligence.

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I understand Allan’s metaphysical commitments prevent him from following the logic beyond a certain point, but his response is still very sad.  I wonder if he ever gets tired of wearing those blinkers.

What is wrong with Allan’s reply?  It steadfastly ignores the glaringly obvious fact that intelligence (not the more narrow “human intelligence”) is the causal factor.

In other words, the thing about humans that makes them a special case is not that they are a member of the Animalia kingdom, or the Chordata phylum, or the Mammalia class, or the Primate order, or the Homo genus or the Homo sapiens species.  The thing that distinguishes humans is reflected in the name of the species.  (“Homo sapiens” means literally “wise man.”) The distinguishing characteristic of the species is intelligence.

It is that characteristic and nothing else that accounts for the ability of Homo sapiens to cause functional complexity, semiosis and irreducible complexity.*

Now it is certainly true that the species Homo sapiens is the only species of which we have observational evidence that it causes functional complexity, semiosis and irreducible complexity.  Allan seems to believe that fact compels the conclusion that we can infer only “human design” from an observed instance of functional complexity, semiosis and irreducible complexity.

Nonsense.  Not even Allan’s fellow materialists agree with him:

BEN STEIN: What do you think is the possibility that Intelligent Design might turn out to be the answer to some issues in genetics or in Darwinian evolution.

DAWKINS: Well, it could come about in the following way. It could be that at some earlier time, somewhere in the universe, a civilization evolved, probably by some kind of Darwinian means, probably to a very high level of technology, and designed a form of life that they seeded onto perhaps this planet. Um, now that is a possibility, and an intriguing possibility. And I suppose it’s possible that you might find evidence for that if you look at the details of biochemistry, molecular biology, you might find a signature of some sort of designer. . . . And that Designer could well be a higher intelligence from elsewhere in the universe.  But that higher intelligence would itself have had to have come about by some explicable, or ultimately explicable process. It couldn’t have just jumped into existence spontaneously. That’s the point

Dawkins understands, as Allan apparently does not, that it is the intelligence, not its instantiation in any particular species, that is important when it comes to inferring design.

UPDATE:

To his credit, Allan now admits the obvious:

Design inference is based almost solely on a comparison to human design. This can certainly be used to infer design in biology . . .

But he cannot resist adding an unwarranted disclaimer:

. . . but with only one known source of intelligence as a frame of reference, the inference is weak. That is statistical reality speaking, not me. But even a weak inference can strengthen support for ID if there were other avenues of examination that support ID.

Why does Allan consider the inference weak?  Because his metaphysical commitments, not logic, compel that conclusion.  Again, here is the logic:

  1. Object X exhibits functional complexity, semiosis and irreducible complexity.
  2. The ONLY KNOWN CAUSE of functional complexity, semiosis and irreducible complexity is design by an intelligent agent.
  3. Inferring to best explanation, the only known cause of functional complexity, semiosis and irreducible complexity (i.e., intelligent design) is the cause of the functional complexity, semiosis or  irreducible complexity in Object X.

Allan insists the inference is “weak,” even though he admits the inference as to cause is to the only known cause of the phenomenon.  Why?  Statistics.  Nonsense.  It is not a statistical analysis.  It is a logical analysis.

 

 

 

_____________

*Let’s not get bogged down with beavers and bees.  The international space station is obviously different in kind and not merely degree from a beaver dam.  Anyone who denies this disqualifies themselves from being considered serious.

 

Comments
AK, it is those with knowledge of info and cybernetic systems who understand what it takes to get one to work. As this is about a pre life context, Chemistry, Thermodynamics and Physics are also relevant. James Tour, molecule builder (including the famous nanocar) has weighed in on the challenge, you may find this discussion here at UD illuminating. KF PS: JVL, if one has not shown causal adequacy of a claimed causal factor then one is simply speculating. There is just one observationally known adequate cause of codes, text that functions algorithmically and associated execution machinery. That observation is no accident, given the config space needle in haystack search challenge. This more than warrants an inference on tested, reliable sign to that cause, intelligently directed configuration.kairosfocus
March 25, 2018
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JVL: A self-replicating molecule as a starting place for OOL is a complete dead end. The work by leading researchers like Joyce, Lincoln and others does not support such a scenario (despite their catchy paper titles and news headlines), and the RNA-world approach generally has come to naught. If you are sincerely interested in the issue (as opposed to some commentators who are just regurgitating the latest OOL news report they read), let me know and I'll take a few minutes to point you to a few additional things on this site to read. Regards,Eric Anderson
March 25, 2018
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Alan Keith:
If you can make a strong inference to design, supported with compelling evidence from multiple other disciplines, you will win a Nobel.
Unfortunately you aren't anyone who can make such a proclamation. Also I notice that no one has ever won a Nobel for advances from blind watchmaker evolution, or for making a strong case for "it all just happened, man". The strong inference to design, supported with compelling evidence from multiple other disciplines, has been made. What are the alternatives and how can we test them?ET
March 25, 2018
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JVL@ Venema’s nylonase story has been thoroughly debunked by Ann Gauger in a series of articles. Venema does not know what he is talking about. This one made me laugh:
Venema: Nylonase is chock full of protein folds— exactly the sort of folds Meyer claims must be the result of design because evolution could not have produced them even with all the time since the origin of life.
“Chock full of protein folds”? Surely, nylonase has only one single fold .... Ann Gauger:
Unfortunately, Venema doesn’t have the story straight. Nylonase has a particular fold, a particular three-dimensional, stable shape. Most proteins have a distinct fold — there are several thousand kinds of folds known so far, each with a distinct topology and structure. Folds are typically made up of small secondary structures called alpha helices and beta strands, which help to assemble the tertiary structure — the fold as a whole. Venema seems unclear about what a protein fold is, and the distinction between secondary and tertiary structures. Nylonase is not “chock full of folds.” No structural biologist would describe nylonase as “chock full of protein folds.” Indeed, no protein is “chock full of folds.” Perhaps Venema was referring to the smaller units of secondary structure I mentioned above, the alpha helices or beta strands. But it would appear he doesn’t know what a protein fold is.
Origenes
March 25, 2018
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JVL:
It seems apparent that unguided processes have not been eliminated from consideration.
It seems quote apparent that unguided processes have clearly been eliminated from consideration. There isn't even any testable hypotheses
I think that objection has been dealt with quite well already.
Where? Not in peer-review
I’m afraid the evidence and research suggest otherwise. An RNA-world is looking more and more plausible.
No, you are just gullible and hopefulET
March 25, 2018
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ET,
Again I see you have a problem with us using our KNOWLEDGE to make scientific inferences.
Why would that bother me? If you can make a strong inference to design, supported with compelling evidence from multiple other disciplines, you will win a Nobel. I will congratulate you.Allan Keith
March 25, 2018
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JVL:
Yes but if people disagree with your design inference then you should. . . . well, I would if it were me . . . look for supporting evidence aside from the contested design.
1- The people who disagree don't have a viable alternative 2- Intelligent Design has evidence in biology- plenty there- and from other scientific venues as well. And again those who disagree don't have any viable alternatives- things just happen isn't an alternativeET
March 25, 2018
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ET Intelligent Design has clearly defined terms that can be checked against what we observe in biology. What this means is if we observe something that matches the defined terms and stochastic processes have been eliminated, meaning Newton’s four rules of scientific reasoning have been followed, the design inference is warranted. It seems apparent that unguided processes have not been eliminated from consideration. The quotes I've been giving are from a lengthy series of posts that address many concerns promoted here. I only wish I'd found the posts before. To understand what is at stake you need to account for the parts. In the case of a bacterial flagellum you need anywhere from a few residues to thousands, which means you need more than just the genes. You need to have each gene expressed correctly to provide the proper amounts of ach residue. You need this to happen in a timely manner. You need get all of the parts in the same location without cross-reacting with something else along the way. Then you need to properly configure it. The assembly instructions alone are IC. And then to top it off you need a command and control center for this newly evolved appendage or else it is useless, or worse, fatal for its owner. And al of this under the constraints of reality: waiting for two mutations. I think that objection has been dealt with quite well already. Nothing of what biologos says supports evolution by means of blind and mindless processes. And there isn’t any evidence for a RNA world, just a need. Also Spiegelman’s Monster is still an observed barrier for molecular replicators. I'm afraid the evidence and research suggest otherwise. An RNA-world is looking more and more plausible. tribune7 Design is a phenomenon. It exists in nature. Books, computers, sentences, airplanes all exists in nature. Because design is part of nature it can be addressed by the scientific method. It can be quantified and measured. I'm not sure about the last bit but okay. KF (and Dembski) make arguments based on information theory. To me that’s powerful and persuasive. I can see you feel that way. So if this method (or others) can be conclusively applied to one part of nature it can be applied to all. If you think the method is wrong or flawed that’s fine. You’re allowed and should be respected for disagreement, and encouraged to point out the flaws. OTOH, you can’t dismiss these claims by accepting them for one part of nature but not another. OK, you can dismiss it but if you do you are rejecting science and reason. I think it has not been shown that unguided processes are incapable of producing the myriad of life forms we observe. In fact, it sounds to me like it's getting clearer and clearer that they certainly could do that. You should read the entire series of posts I've been quoting from. It's lovely stuff, very clear and well written. If unguided natural processes are being shown to be more and more 'powerful' then the design inference gets weaker and weaker. We may never fill in all the gaps in knowledge but it looks to me that the ledge upon which design inference stands is getting smaller and smaller.JVL
March 25, 2018
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Allan Keith:
Every new idea had to fight for its place at the table by supporting it with compelling hypotheses, testing, evidence, observations. Evolution wasn’t just ‘welcomed’. The theory had to earn its respect. ID has not done this. And until it proposes mechanisms, and tests them, it never will.
Umm, evolution by means of natural selection, drift and other blind and mindless processes can't even be tested. It has never been shown to be the designer mimic Darwin hoped for. ID has a scientifically testable methodology and it pertains to the DESIGN. We don't even ask about the "how" until AFTER design is detected. That said, design is a mechanism. Evolution by means of intelligent design is a mechanism used by genetic algorithms. Built-in responses to environmental cues is a mechanism proposed by Dr. Spetner in 1997 and confirmed by epigenetics. ID's "mechanism" is for detecting intelligent design. Evolutionism is the mechanistic theory, not ID. Evolutionism claims there is a step-by-step process for producing the biodiversity we observe, not ID. ID does not make the same claims evolutionism does so it's sort of stupid to ask it to defend something it doesn't claim.ET
March 25, 2018
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JVL:
And, as I mentioned later, Futuyma also has a list of five sub-theories that make up the whole theory of evolution.
And yet without the actual scientific theory of evolution to check he could be just making it all up. I bet he equivocates throughout the book- equivocating "evolution" with "evolution by means of blind and mindless processes".ET
March 25, 2018
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If de novo protein-coding genes such as nylonase can come into being from scratch...
It didn't come from scratch. And there isn't any evidence it was via a copying error or mistake- no evidence for the blind watchmakerET
March 25, 2018
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Allan Keith:
To supplant evolution as the best explanation,...
Intelligent Design is not anti-evolution. And blind watchmaker evolution is the best explanation for genetic diseases and deformities but that's it. Again I see you have a problem with us using our KNOWLEDGE to make scientific inferences. Who cares how many references points you have- you have to use what you do have. Mother nature doesn't get magical abilities just because we have only one or a few reference points. Mother nature doesn't get any magical abilities just because we don't know who else could have done it. And it still remains that any given design inference can be falsified just by showing mother nature is capable of producing the event/ structure/ object in question.ET
March 25, 2018
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It's a really good resource:
For Meyer, new protein folds are beyond the reach of evolution, he argues, because they are too rare for chance events to produce: … experiments establishing the extreme rarity of protein folds in sequence space also show why random changes to existing genes inevitably efface or destroy function before they generate fundamentally new folds or functions … If only one out of every 1077 of the alternate sequences are functional, an evolving gene will inevitably wander down an evolutionary dead-end long before it can ever become a gene capable of producing a new protein fold. The extreme rarity of protein folds also entails their functional isolation from each other in sequence space. (Darwin’s Doubt, page 207) Of course, we have already seen that Meyer is mistaken here as well. If de novo protein-coding genes such as nylonase can come into being from scratch, as it were, then it is demonstrably the case that new protein folds can be formed by evolutionary mechanisms without difficulty. Nylonase is filled with stable protein folds, as you would expect since it is a functional enzyme. Moreover, its folds have now been extensively characterized at the molecular level, and, not surprisingly, they contain alpha helices and beta sheets. So, if Meyer had understood de novo gene formation—as we have seen, he mistakenly thought it was an unexplained process—he would have known that new protein folds could indeed be easily developed by evolutionary processes.
JVL
March 25, 2018
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JVL- Nothing of what biologos says supports evolution by means of blind and mindless processes. And there isn't any evidence for a RNA world, just a need. Also Spiegelman's Monster is still an observed barrier for molecular replicators.ET
March 25, 2018
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JVL Design is a phenomenon. It exists in nature. Books, computers, sentences, airplanes all exists in nature. Because design is part of nature it can be addressed by the scientific method. It can be quantified and measured. KF (and Dembski) make arguments based on information theory. To me that's powerful and persuasive. So if this method (or others) can be conclusively applied to one part of nature it can be applied to all. If you think the method is wrong or flawed that's fine. You're allowed and should be respected for disagreement, and encouraged to point out the flaws. OTOH, you can't dismiss these claims by accepting them for one part of nature but not another. OK, you can dismiss it but if you do you are rejecting science and reason.tribune7
March 25, 2018
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Intelligent Design has clearly defined terms that can be checked against what we observe in biology. What this means is if we observe something that matches the defined terms and stochastic processes have been eliminated, meaning Newton’s four rules of scientific reasoning have been followed, the design inference is warranted.
IC- A system performing a given basic function is irreducibly complex if it includes a set of well-matched, mutually interacting, non-arbitrarily individuated parts such that each part in the set is indispensable to maintaining the system’s basic, and therefore original, function. The set of these indispensable parts is known as the irreducible core of the system. Page 285 NFL Numerous and Diverse Parts If the irreducible core of an IC system consists of one or only a few parts, there may be no insuperable obstacle to the Darwinian mechanism explaining how that system arose in one fell swoop. But as the number of indispensable well-fitted, mutually interacting,, non-arbitrarily individuated parts increases in number & diversity, there is no possibility of the Darwinian mechanism achieving that system in one fell swoop. Page 287 Minimal Complexity and Function Given an IC system with numerous & diverse parts in its core, the Darwinian mechanism must produce it gradually. But if the system needs to operate at a certain minimal level of function before it can be of any use to the organism & if to achieve that level of function it requires a certain minimal level of complexity already possessed by the irreducible core, the Darwinian mechanism has no functional intermediates to exploit. Page 287
To understand what is at stake you need to account for the parts. In the case of a bacterial flagellum you need anywhere from a few residues to thousands, which means you need more than just the genes. You need to have each gene expressed correctly to provide the proper amounts of ach residue. You need this to happen in a timely manner. You need get all of the parts in the same location without cross-reacting with something else along the way. Then you need to properly configure it. The assembly instructions alone are IC. And then to top it off you need a command and control center for this newly evolved appendage or else it is useless, or worse, fatal for its owner. And al of this under the constraints of reality: waiting for two mutations. A gene duplication needs a new binding site and then who knows how many specific changes to get a new function. Pure fantasy if your mechanism is blind and mindless. Dr Behe responds to IC criticisms:
One last charge must be met: Orr maintains that the theory of intelligent design is not falsifiable. He's wrong. To falsify design theory a scientist need only experimentally demonstrate that a bacterial flagellum, or any other comparably complex system, could arise by natural selection. If that happened I would conclude that neither flagella nor any system of similar or lesser complexity had to have been designed. In short, biochemical design would be neatly disproved.- Dr Behe in 1997
Now compare that to evolution by means of natural selection, drift or any other blind and mindless process.ET
March 25, 2018
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From the next page:
I recall reading Meyer’s argument for an arbitrary code when Signature first came out in 2009, and being surprised by it. The reason for my surprise was simple: in 2009 there was already a detailed body of scientific work that demonstrated exactly what Meyer claimed had never been shown.[1] Though Meyer claimed that “molecular biologists have failed to find any significant chemical interaction between the codons on mRNA (or the anticodons on tRNA) and the amino acids on the acceptor arm of tRNA to which the codons correspond” this was simply not the case. One hypothesis about the origin of the genetic code is that the tRNA system is a later addition to a system that originally used direct chemical interactions between amino acids and codons. In this hypothesis, amino acids would directly bind to their codons on mRNA, and then be joined together by a ribozyme (the ancestor of the present-day ribosome). This hypothesis is called “direct templating”, and it predicts that at least some amino acids will directly bind to their codons (or perhaps anticodons, since the codon/anticodon pairing could possibly flip between the mRNA and the tRNA). So, is there evidence that amino acids can bind directly to their codons or anticodons on mRNA? Meyer’s claim notwithstanding, yes—very much so! Several amino acids do in fact directly bind to their codon (or in some cases, their anticodon), and the evidence for this has been known since the late 1980s in some cases. Our current understanding is that this applies only to a subset of the 20 amino acids found in present-day proteins. In this model, then, the original code used a subset of amino acids in the current code, and assembled proteins directly on mRNA molecules without tRNAs present. Later, tRNAs would be added to the system, allowing for other amino acids—amino acids that cannot directly bind mRNA—to be added to the code. The fact that several amino acids do in fact bind their codons or anticodons is strong evidence that at least part of the code was formed through chemical interactions— and, contra Meyer, is not an arbitrary code. The code we have—or at least for those amino acids for which direct binding was possible—was indeed a chemically favored code. And if it was chemically favored, then it is quite likely that it had a chemical origin, even if we do not yet understand all the details of how it came to be. As such, building an apologetic on the presumed future failings of abiogenesis research, when current research already undercuts one’s thesis, seems to me as problematic for Meyer in 2009 as it did for Edwards in 1696. Do unanswered questions remain? Of course. Should we bank on them never being answered? Or would it be more wise to frame our apologetics on what we know, rather than what we don’t know?[2]
JVL
March 25, 2018
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From https://biologos.org/blogs/dennis-venema-letters-to-the-duchess/biological-information-and-intelligent-design-the-curious-world-of-rna-continued
Those who follow the Intelligent Design literature will know that philosopher and historian of science Stephen Meyer discusses transcription and translation at length in his 2009 book Signature in the Cell. In this book, Meyer attempts to build a case that the “information” we see in living organisms is in fact information in the same sense as a human code or a language. Part of his case involves casting doubt on the RNA world hypothesis, since this hypothesis suggests a material, chemical origin for the genetic code, even if an incomplete one. One of Meyer’s critiques in Signature is that such a hypothesis would have to explain how ribosomes transitioned from using RNA enzymes to using protein ones: Meyer erroneously claims that the enzyme in the ribosome that joins amino acids together is a protein. This is, of course, incorrect, since present-day ribosomes are ribozymes. As we have seen, proponents of the RNA world hypothesis suspected that the ribosome might still be a ribozyme, since its function may have been difficult to transition from an RNA enzyme to a protein one. When, in 2000, the ribosome was definitively shown to be a ribozyme, it was widely seen as a successful prediction for the RNA world position. That Meyer was unaware of this widely-cited and highly-influential work (it would garner the 2009 Nobel Prize in Chemistry, the same year that Meyer’s book appeared) came as quite a surprise to biologists reading Signature, especially given its import for Meyer’s claims.
And the discussion continues . . .JVL
March 25, 2018
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EugeneS In fact, evidence suggests that information translation belongs to a class of phenomena that are correlates of intelligence, and that, based on evidence, inference to design as the best explanation, as far as the origin of information translation systems is concerned, is warranted. I haven't seen that suggestion in the peer reviewed literature, any hints as to where I might find an explanation? Would that be equivalent to gene expression?JVL
March 25, 2018
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JVL "Go for it! I’m convinced your body was murdered" Excellent. Now, I suggest you carefully consider the genetic information translation apparatus as evidence for design. There has already been done a lot of research in this area. In fact, evidence suggests that information translation belongs to a class of phenomena that are correlates of intelligence, and that, based on the evidence, inference to design as the explanation that best fits the data, as far as the origin of information translation systems is concerned, is warranted. Note that we are dealing here with a special kind of explanations, historic ones. As the origin of life is unique in that it occurred in the past and is not routinely observed now, whatever our explanation, it is necessarily hypothetical. I can see no grounds, other than ideological, to deny intelligent design the status of a scientific hypothesis. It is not a science stopper at all. In fact, contemporary science builds on the seminal idea that the universe is, at least partly, intelligible because it was created by God and therefore we, as created in the image of God, are able to reverse-engineer it and understand how it 'works'.EugeneS
March 25, 2018
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Allan Keith Human made codes are linguistic and human made algorithms are mathematical. You are till relying on comparison to a single source to make your inference. As such, it remains a weak inference. Surely you see the need to support this inference through other sources of evidence. The strength of evolution is that it is supported by many sources of evidence, from very different fields. Things like chemistry, population genetics, cladistics, geology, nuclear physics, etc. To supplant evolution as the best explanation, ID will have to find support from these disciplines as well. Not impossible, but unlikely.` Nicely put.JVL
March 25, 2018
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Kairosfocus,
AK, actually, the most relevant expertise is with those who understand information systems.
Why is that? They are not experts in chemistry, biochemistry, organic chemistry, genetics and physics. Their capabilities and limitations. I don’t go to an information system specialist when I have a genetic disease (which I do). I go to a specialist in genetic diseases and how to minimize the symptoms and ultimate outcome. One of her favourite sayings is that, sometimes, evolution sucks.
We have discovered — almost seventy years ago now — that the living cell has in it a code based, digital (4-state characters) algorithmic system in the heart of key life processes.
The discovery of which has led to an exponential explosion in research and discoveries in evolution. Research which, as one of its fundamental assumptions, is that natural selection acts on variation caused by random mutations. Surely if this assumption is as fundamentally wrong as you suggest it is, this research would have run its course long ago.
We know that codes are linguistic and algorithms are mathematical.
Human made codes are linguistic and human made algorithms are mathematical. You are till relying on comparison to a single source to make your inference. As such, it remains a weak inference. Surely you see the need to support this inference through other sources of evidence. The strength of evolution is that it is supported by many sources of evidence, from very different fields. Things like chemistry, population genetics, cladistics, geology, nuclear physics, etc. To supplant evolution as the best explanation, ID will have to find support from these disciplines as well. Not impossible, but unlikely.Allan Keith
March 25, 2018
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Hmm . . . I'm being told I don't have permission to edit my above comment even thought there are still over twelve minutes left of the timer. No big deal I just noticed a formatting error: I mucked up the bold tags around kairosfocus and his comments. I suspect that time had actually run out but the browser didn't reflect that properly. No worries!!JVL
March 25, 2018
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KD Jung We cannot see the designer, our God who made all the world. We can see Him in faith only. I can see you have a deep and abiding faith which gives you great joy and peace. I'm very happy for you. Being a Christian takes effort, it's hard work. Well done!! But I think if the designer is non-coporeal and unable to be examined via research and experimentation then we are no longer doing science. Upright Biped You defend your lack of curiosity and substance with these measured responses that are both meaningless and trivial. Being that we are all experienced social beings here, I wonder why you think that such things are not immediately obvious. Meanwhile, the empirical evidence of design lay on the table in front of you. All you can do is avoid it and tell us again that it doesn’t exist. I'm sorry but I just don't find the arguments I've heard for the existence of design convincing. And I read a lot of counter arguments, including some from theologians such as the former Archbishop of Canterbury. (He was quite well respected during his tenure and frequently appeared on radio and TV programmes.) Add to that the lack of any evidence that a designer was around at . . . . what time did you say? . . . then I think you've got a lot of work yet to do to make your case. Why not? You say no evidence exist, why are not not able to qualify your words with some evidence that you’ve engaged the argument? After all, this is elementary biology 101, and rudimentary logic. Because I'm not familiar with the current stage of research in that particular sub-field. Therefore I'm not going to insult people who know more than I do by wading in with an ill-informed opinion. b>kairosfocus when you can pass the vera causa test, you will have something substantial. So far, nothing on that front. I guess we'll just have to disagree on that point. EugeneS Now, some ID opponents say that the only thing that matters is if the investigation points to a concrete suspect. However, before this happens, we must decide it was not suicide in order for the investigation to proceed. So answering the above questions is of material importance and is not a trivial thing. If you are convinced that design has been detected then I encourage you to do more work along whatever research agenda you may have. Go for it! I'm convinced your body was murdered (based on your description) but I'm not convinced design in nature has been detected. Additionally, while there are clearly other beings around capable of the attacks documented on the body there is no evidence that there has every been any kind of intelligent designer present on the earth until humans showed up. Like I said, I would love to read any research you might do. tribune7 So corpses and defection are needed to determine design, right? Of course not, not required. But they provide evidence of the presence of beings around at the time. There are lots of other kinds of indicators and evidence. For example .. . . . I once worked at an archaeological site in central Washington where we found clear evidence of ancient fire pits and flint-knapping. No bones, no poop, no pottery, no structures. But clearly humans had been there in the past, probably on a migratory route. I have read about a site where an archaeologist was even able to determine the handedness of a flint-knapper based on the spray pattern of the shards. Really lovely work. And we can tell the difference between flint-knapping and natural degradation based on the shape and size and distribution of the shards.JVL
March 25, 2018
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JVL If they were clearly drawings and not interpreted random patterns then no, I would not reject them as being designed. So corpses and defection are needed to determine design, right?tribune7
March 25, 2018
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JVL #190 Thank you for your honesty. "I haven't seen evidence [of a designer]" . A body is lying on the ground with traces of 15 knife blows each of which, upon inspection, is considered by forensic experts deadly beyond reasonable doubt. Did the death of the person happen by chance or deliberately? And, further, what kind of intentional event was it, suicide or murder (again beyond reasonable doubt)? Now, some ID opponents say that the only thing that matters is if the investigation points to a concrete suspect. However, before this happens, we must decide it was not suicide in order for the investigation to proceed. So answering the above questions is of material importance and is not a trivial thing.EugeneS
March 25, 2018
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JVL, when you can pass the vera causa test, you will have something substantial. So far, nothing on that front. KFkairosfocus
March 25, 2018
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AK, actually, the most relevant expertise is with those who understand information systems. We have discovered -- almost seventy years ago now -- that the living cell has in it a code based, digital (4-state characters) algorithmic system in the heart of key life processes. That means, present at origin of cell based life and thus the dynamics at work precede biology. Physics, thermodynamics, Chemistry and cybernetics. We know that codes are linguistic and algorithms are mathematical. The search challenge in beyond astronomical configuration spaces implies that blind forces from the first three are not plausible as causal explanations; by overwhelming relative statistical weight such highly specialised clusters of configs would not plausibly appear spontaneously. And indeed, we know from observation just one adequate source of such things: intelligently directed configuration. Until the biologists etc can show empirical, observed warrant for blind forces creating linguistic-mathematical cybernetic, semiotic entities such as we see by blind forces, they are not even in the right ballpark. KFkairosfocus
March 25, 2018
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UB: We know that aminoacyl synthetases are the finite set of complex proteins that establish the genetic code. Their task in the cell is to perform a double-recognition and bind a particular amino acid to a particular tRNA adapter prior to the act of translation. We can all conceive of their significance to the system. They are synthesized from nucleic memory, and it stands to reason that there was once a time in earth’s history that none of the set of aaRS had ever been synthesized from that memory. Here is my question: Regardless of what anyone thinks preceded that time, at the point in earth’s history that the first ever aaRS was successfully synthesized from memory, how many of the other aaRS had to be in place? In response to this question, I am either given no response at all or given a response specifically intended to not answer the question. Can any of our current critics offer an answer? JVL: I can’t, sorry.
Why not? You say no evidence exist, why are not not able to qualify your words with some evidence that you've engaged the argument? After all, this is elementary biology 101, and rudimentary logic.Upright BiPed
March 25, 2018
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UB: So, it appears that even the most elementary problems with your position toward ID (those that are both fundamental and obvious) sail past you without even a quiver of curiosity. That sort of puts your attack on ID into perspective, does it not? JVL: I wasn’t ‘attacking’ ID at all. I’ve offered my opinion but it’s not up to me how you guys proceed.
You defend your lack of curiosity and substance with these measured responses that are both meaningless and trivial. Being that we are all experienced social beings here, I wonder why you think that such things are not immediately obvious. Meanwhile, the empirical evidence of design lay on the table in front of you. All you can do is avoid it and tell us again that it doesn't exist.Upright BiPed
March 25, 2018
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