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A quick question for Dr. Liddle and other skeptics

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Over at The Skeptical Zone, Dr. Elizabeth Liddle has written a thought-provoking post, which poses an interesting ethical conundrum about the morality of creating sentient beings.

Dr. Liddle’s post was titled, Getting some stuff off my chest…., and its tone was remarkably conciliatory, as the following extracts reveal:

I don’t think that science has disproven, nor even suggests, that it is unlikely that an Intelligent Designer was responsible for the world, and intended it to come into existence.

I don’t think that science has, nor even can, prove that divine and/or miraculous intervention is impossible.

I think the world has properties that make it perfectly possible for an Intelligent Deity to “reach in” and tweak things to her liking – and that even if it didn’t, it would still be perfectly possible, given Omnipotence, just as a computer programmer can reach in and tweak the Matrix.

I don’t think that science falsifies the idea of an omnipotent, omniscient deity – at all.

Apparently, Dr. Liddle’s main reason for disbelieving in an “external disembodied intelligent and volitional deity” is a philosophical rather than a scientific one: she is “no longer persuaded that either intelligence or volition are possible in the absence of a material substrate.” Fair enough; but Dr. Liddle should tell us what she means by the word “material.” Does she mean: (a) composed of visible and/or tangible “stuff”; (b) having some (non-zero) quantity of mass-energy; (c) spatially extended, and inside our universe; (d) spatially extended, and inside some universe; (e) composed of parts; (f) behaving in accordance with the laws of Nature; or (g) behaving in accordance with some invariant set of mathematical laws? What is Dr. Liddle’s definition of “matter,” and why does Dr. Liddle believe that an intelligent being has to conform to that definition?

But the most interesting part of her post came in two paragraphs where she made it clear that while she regarded the notion of an omnipotent, omniscient deity as quite compatible with science, it was ludicrous to suggest that this deity might also be omnibenevolent:

I do think that the world is such that IF there is an omnipotent, omniscient deity, EITHER that deity does not have human welfare as a high priority OR she has very different ideas about what constitutes human welfare from the ones that most people hold (and as are exemplified, for example, in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights), OR she has deliberately chosen to let the laws of her created world play out according to her ordained rules, regardless of the effects of those laws on the welfare of human beings, perhaps trusting that we would value a comprehensible world more than one with major causal glitches. In my case, her trust was well-placed…

I don’t think that it follows that, were we to find incontrovertible evidence of a Intelligent Creator (for instance, an unambiguous message in English configured in a nebula in some remote region of space, or on the DNA of an ant encased in amber millions of years ago) that that would mandate us in any way to worship that designer. On the basis of her human rights record I’d be more inclined to summon her to The Hague.

This is a little inconsistent. On the one hand, Dr. Liddle declares that she values “a comprehensible world” with no “causal glitches”; but at the same time, Dr. Liddle wishes that the Intelligent Creator, if she exists, would do more to promote human rights and alleviate suffering.

At any rate, here is the question I would like to ask Dr. Liddle. Suppose you were the Intelligent Creator of a world containing life. Suppose also that you have decided that your world should contain no “causal glitches” whatsoever: miraculous interventions are out of the question. Suppose, finally, that the laws of your world happen to dictate that any sentient beings in it will suffer and die, and suppose, also, that death in your world is absolutely final, with no hereafter. That goes for sapient beings as well: in your world, you only get one innings.

The life-forms that currently exist in your world include not only micro-organisms, but also complex animals, rather like our insects, which are capable of a rich variety of behavioral feats, but lack any kind of phenomenal consciousness: they react to environmental stimuli in a very sophisticated manner, but for them, there is no subjective feeling of “what it is like” to experience those stimuli. So far, everything is unfolding in accordance with your pre-ordained program.

Here’s my question for Dr. Liddle, and for skeptical readers. Given the above constraints, would you regard it as immoral to be the author of a program that eventually resulted in the appearance of:

(a) sentient beings capable of feeling pain, but with no self-awareness whatsoever;
(b) sentient beings with some rudimentary self-awareness;
(c) sapient beings capable of reasoning and language, as well as a rich sense of self-awareness?

Putting it another way, would it be better for an Intelligent Creator not to create a world of sentient (and/or self-aware and/or sapient) beings, than to create a world in which sentient / self-aware / sapient beings existed, but where all of these beings would undergo suffering (and where some of them would undergo a considerable degree of suffering), caused by the inexorable operation of the laws of Nature in that world? Or putting it as baldly as possible: if you were the Creator, would you deny us all the gift of existence, on the grounds that it would be immoral to create beings like us?

If your answer is that it would be immoral to create beings like us, then I would ask you to set out, as clearly as possible, the ethical principle which would be violated by the creation of beings like us.

And if it’s not the existence of suffering per se that you object to, but the degree of suffering, where do you draw the line, and why?

Over to you, Dr. Liddle…

Comments
Andre:
If Jesus is God and God himself quote the bible then everything in it is true.
Yet, even granting the Bible is the "Word of God" in a broad sense, we also have to be practical. The Bible was written down by humans, living at various times, within various cultures and viewpoints, with imperfect language which in turn has been translated by other fallible humans into other imperfect languages, often based on second- or third-hand stories handed down for generations, and which was then eventually edited or collected into a particular volume, and even some Bibles have more books than others (see the traditional Catholic Bible for instance; and there are other missing books referenced in the Bible text). And then the whole thing is subject to interpretation . . . Don't get me wrong. The Bible is a remarkable work and is probably the most important book ever written. But it doesn't follow -- either from the book itself or our understanding of how the book came to be -- that whatever current English version we happen to be reading is an absolutely inerrant text, with each jot and tittle laid down with precision by God himself. Anyway, I'm not necessarily assuming you were going that far, but your comment reminded me of this. /soapboxEric Anderson
January 21, 2014
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Tamaras Thank you for clarifying, I have read of many people recounting previous lives, but truthfully the concept of reincarnation, over and over and over again does not seem to be anything the Bible teaches, now before you ask why I find it authoritive; I'll state my reasons why its the ultimate source. If Jesus is God and God himself quote the bible then everything in it is true If Jesus is not God and quotes the book then nothing in the book can be true as you know something can not be both false and true at the same time. The book does not speak about Karma nor reincarnation on earthAndre
January 21, 2014
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tamaras Karma is not true, here is why, good things happen to bad people and bad things happen to good people.
Whether or not karma is an existent force, Tarmaras makes a good point. Dr. Liddle lays down a blanket statement concerning God, not distilling her argument to one specific theological position. In this framework, Tarmaras makes an argument within the framework of a God, and the force of karma, existing. In Tarmaras argument, Dr. Liddle's concept of unjust suffering is completely destabilized. One common thread I've noticed in atheist arguments, is one of egocentric narcissism. They want God to only exist in their idea of what God SHOULD be, instead of what God IS. They want a wish granter. They don't want work, or faith, or struggle, because if God really were good they'd not have to endure anything. This is a strangely narrow view of a creator. I also find it very elucidating when I juxtapose Dr. Liddle's statment that even if this God exists, it is not one she finds worthy of worship, and the statement that all souls who go to Hell, walk through the gates voluntarily.TSErik
January 21, 2014
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Andre, I see where you're coming from. However, your point would be true if the concept of karma was not also tied with the concept of reincarnation and living multiple lives. In this context, a soul who has good karma from a previous existence can make new choices in this life. The choices could also include squandering all the good karma and making very bad karma in the process (hence, being seen as a bad person in this life). From this perspective our perception of how good or bad a person is depends on our observations from this life, however we don't know what their "baggage" they come with from previous lives. Thus we consider a person to be "good" if we have observed them doing good karma and bad if we have observed them doing bad karma. But the doing of the karma and the receiving of the karmic result are not necessarily simultaneous, nor even perfectly consecutive. Actually, the universal arrangement (according to Vedantic karma theory for instance) is that some of the karma is delayed for the next life.tarmaras
January 21, 2014
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Seeing that it has been determined that Lizzie and the other alleged "skeptics" are nothing of the kind- meaning they live a life of self-deception, what makes anyone think that they will answer VJT honestly? Remember Lizzie and her ilk think that a genetic algorithm, which utilizes a goal-oriented targeted search, mimics darwinian evolution whicxh isn't even a search and doesn't have any goals. THAT is how self-deluded they are. So why even bother?Joe
January 21, 2014
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tamaras Karma is not true, here is why, good things happen to bad people and bad things happen to good people.Andre
January 21, 2014
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If we believe that we are the body and that we didn't exist before the body and we won't exist after the dissolution of the body then we can of course we can speak of the divine injustice. Hence a two-year-old is really a two-year-old and his or her suffering is unjustifiable. But what if the two-year old is not, ultimately, a two-year old, but a soul who has lived countless lives before this one and could possibly live countless more after being ejected from this body? What if there was subtle law, the Law of Karma, which governs the interactions between conscious selves across multiple lives and which is perfectly just. Anything you cause at the level of another's consciousness returns to you so that "you know how it feels" -- furthering your capacity for empathy, and teaching you valuable lessons stored at the level of the subtle mind (which travels with you across lives). Sort of like the Christian "live by the sword, die by the sword" but within a framework of multiple lives. What would Dr. Liddle think of this novel theological context, in terms of divine justice?tarmaras
January 21, 2014
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I have said this before and will do so again, The world was never intended to be be perfect but it laid the foundation for Him that saved us.It was through pain and suffering that God revealed His Glory to us. This is not some deep Christian mystery or profound question. I hope you're reading this Dr Liddle.....Andre
January 21, 2014
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God did create us all with a free will to reject him or seek him, and Christ said in the bible "seek and you will find, knock and the door will be opened to you" This is very easy to understand. Christ is saying if you are really seeking him with all of your heart you will find him. There are many evidences that lead to God. Is there 100% proof? No , for a few reasons. If there was 100% proof there would be no room for faith. We dont have 100% proof that the last 5 minutes was really an illusion but we reasonably believe that it did happen. So there is enough evidence for God for people that truly want to find him but if you dont want to seek him at all, no evidence will ever convince you. Other evidences are things like veridical nde's that show comelling evidence that teh soul is seperate from the brain and can live outside of the brain. Veridical meaning that they are nde's that have been verified by sources outside of the nde experiencer, but you will always find pseudo skeptics that will deny these evidences by setting the scientific bar to an unattainable position. To find God you must start with an open heart.wallstreeter43
January 20, 2014
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If one at least considers that God suffered according to the Christian belief, then, the problem of evil and how it relates to God should make one to think a bit. But I guess some people even fail to see this. This gives support to the following comment:
Those who believe God exists are hopeful that one day they will come to know Him in some measure, while those who insist there is no God are confident they already have a perfect knowledge of Him.
seventrees
January 20, 2014
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Greetings Eric, worshiping in spirit and truth goes in hand with what you said about acknowledging him (your comment at 23). Jerry at 26: Didn't Job want to bring God to court? Anyway, as I know, Job recognized his ignorance. Eric at 33:
Those who believe God exists are hopeful that one day they will come to know Him in some measure, while those who insist there is no God are confident they already have a perfect knowledge of Him.
It is said knowledge of the Lord is insight. Of course, some will deny this. Oh well! Let us see.seventrees
January 20, 2014
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Querius @42, LOL. :-DMapou
January 20, 2014
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selvaRajan @ 39 noted
Every religion has their own concept of God . . . (snip) . . . what you think is God is God and what you think He is capable of is His capability
I have an image in my mind of your appearance: a dark-haired young man with a neatly-clipped moustache. However, Mapou, an imaginative self-described rebel quite possibly thinks of you as a heavy-set older woman, also with a moustache. So, just as Schroedinger's cat is trapped forever between life and death, so you too are also forever held prisoner by our conceptions of you! As you pointed out, what we think of you is you, which makes you a young, androgynous, heavy-set person with a moustache named "Adam." It's a pity, really . . . ;-) -QQuerius
January 20, 2014
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It seems to be mandatory among atheists that they must present their arguments as if they had been neither presented nor rebutted at any point since the dawn of time. I have even read them claiming to have come up with some new disproof of God's existence, and then when reading this novel disproof find only arguments that Aquinas would have regarded as ancient. But as I've said here before, the only verifiable contribution that atheists have made to the field of theology is to prove that atheists make very poor theologians.EvilSnack
January 20, 2014
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selvaRajan:
Everyone is arguing based on their own perception of God and since there is no consensus on form of God, it is fair to say – ‘what you think is God is God and what you think He is capable of is His capability’.
In my opinion, Christians and Jews should know exactly what God looks like. The book of Genesis tells us: The Elohim created the Adam (humans) in their image; male and female (masculine and feminine, not men and women) they created them. I interpret this to mean that, in the beginning, both the Elohim and the Adam (the humans) were androgynous creatures and looked like each other. The main difference is that humans are made of the dust of the earth whereas the Elohim are made of something else. The androgynous humans were eventually split into males and females. Are the Elohim still androgynous? I don't know although I suspect not. OK, I admit I have a different understanding of Genesis than most Christians but I can't help it. I'm a rebel and a heretic by nature. LOL.Mapou
January 20, 2014
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Every religion has their own concept of God. Some religions view God's emissary as God, in some God has no form, in some there are hundreds of God - some Gods are female. Dr. Liddle has her own God (in her perception God is female). You have your own God. When we can't divine the form of God , how can we know whether He can create a sentient or sapient being ? Everyone is arguing based on their own perception of God and since there is no consensus on form of God, it is fair to say - 'what you think is God is God and what you think He is capable of is His capability'.selvaRajan
January 20, 2014
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different people discussion different metaphysical
Should read: "...different people discussing..."TSErik
January 20, 2014
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christians have all turned on themselves, arguing about god. I think you had better master the basics of your own beliefs before criticizing the heathens.
Are you so ignorant as to equate different people discussion different metaphysical views within a theological framework as a failing of belief in God in general? If so, Darwinism has failed time and time again for decades upon decades. As to JLA: Your tired and cliche, torn from Reddit, arguments only show how limited your mental faculties are. Stating there is no evidence for God is question begging as one assumes existence and life itself are not evidence for a creator. Your pathetically plebeian pixie retort is a sad paraphrase of Russel's Teapot which has been logically refuted over and over. This existence appears designed, therefore it stands to reason there would be a designer. And it is here that ID theory picks up.TSErik
January 20, 2014
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is the problem with infinity: compared to infinity, everything is both finite and infinite at the same time.
I think what you may have meant to say is that compared to infinity everything is both finite and infinitely small, which makes infinity nonsense. (And I agree.) The practical reality is, physicists (those guys who actually try to figure out and explain how spacetime works) hate infinity. If a equation reduces to infinity, it's nonsense. This is what happens when they try to harmonize the equations of gravity with the equations of quantum mechanics. The only thing they can do with infinity when one appears in an equation is to attempt to cancel it out with another infinity. If you can't do this, you have nonsense on your hands.CentralScrutinizer
January 20, 2014
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EL's post seems like an expanded way of saying, "Even if there is a Creator, it's mean and I certainly don't owe it anything." Given the tone of her piece, which exhibits a measure of humility that I would not typically associate with TSZ, I have only a few mild criticisms to offer. First, there is a very nebulous quality to atheistic critiques of God's morality. In Liddle's case, she obviously is measuring her hypothetical God against some standard of conduct. But what exactly is this standard of conduct, and why should God (or anyone else, for that matter) consider it authoritative? What if Liddle's perception of what God ought to do is simply wrong? Even if we grant for the sake of discussion some agreed upon standard of good and bad, does it make sense to hold God culpable for the actions morally autonomous beings? Second, Liddle's critique of God's morality assumes, but hardly demonstrates, that there isn't some context that might provide justification for the existence of suffering. This is crucial, because a great many actions (or inactions) can be made to appear cruel if removed from their larger context. As a hypothetical, imagine the feelings of a very young child (say, 4 or 5) who contracts some serious illness and must undergo hospitalization and subsequent surgery. The child lacks understanding of its precarious situation and is frightened by the environment - garishly lit rooms filled with noisy machinery and strangers with masked faces. Moreover, the strangers hurt the child, jabbing it with needles and cutting it. The child spends long periods of time away from its parents and feels abandoned. Understandably, the child feels fearful, experiences pain and loneliness, and even blames its parents for its distress. But do such feelings, natural though they may be, really provide adequate warrant for indicting the parents as cruel and uncaring?Optimus
January 20, 2014
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Eric Anderson:
Those who believe God exists are hopeful that one day they will come to know Him in some measure, while those who insist there is no God are confident they already have a perfect knowledge of Him.
Excellent point.Mapou
January 20, 2014
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JLAfan2001 @25:
Oh, and you are the one making the positive claim that god exists so you should provide the evidence.
Actually I haven't made that claim, at least not insofar as it relates to ID, and certainly not on this thread. That there was a creator of initial life and much of what we see in biology is quite clear -- though some of course refuse to consider the evidence. But the question of God is, at some level, separate. What I do take note of in regards to vjtorley's OP, is the hollow arguments that are often used to assert God's non-existence. Arguments about evil or suffering or pain or sorrow or bad design -- you are no doubt quite acquainted with them -- arguments that start with the (often unstated) assertion: If God did exist, He would do X. (Meaning, in most cases, God would do what I think He should do.) And herein lies the irony. Believers in the Biblical word are quite aware of the limitations of their understanding; they acknowledge that God's thoughts are not their thoughts; they make a lifelong effort, however, to follow the scriptural injunction to come to know God as best they can. In contrast, those who are dead set against the possibility of God's existence are quite sure, often arrogantly so, of precisely what God is like, precisely what he would do, precisely how the world would be different . . . if only such a being existed. So we find ourselves with one of the great ironies of the debates about God's existence: Those who believe God exists are hopeful that one day they will come to know Him in some measure, while those who insist there is no God are confident they already have a perfect knowledge of Him.Eric Anderson
January 20, 2014
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I do think that the world is such that IF there is an omnipotent, omniscient deity, EITHER that deity does not have human welfare as a high priority OR she has very different ideas about what constitutes human welfare from the ones that most people hold (and as are exemplified, for example, in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights), OR she has deliberately chosen to let the laws of her created world play out according to her ordained rules, regardless of the effects of those laws on the welfare of human beings, perhaps trusting that we would value a comprehensible world more than one with major causal glitches. In my case, her trust was well-placed…
It does appear that Dr. Liddle is rehashing the problem of evil in this post. Did she solve the problem? No, because she fails to take into account the problem of evil from God's perspective; she myopically only sees what a human can see with limited knowledge. She claims that the deity in question "does not have human welfare as a high priority." Yet she pointedly ignores Jesus's words at Matthew 5:43-45: "YOU heard that it was said, ‘You must love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ ?However, I say to YOU: Continue to love YOUR enemies and to pray for those persecuting YOU; that YOU may prove yourselves sons of YOUR Father who is in the heavens, since he makes his sun rise upon wicked people and good and makes it rain upon righteous people and unrighteous." Then she states that, "or she has very different ideas about what constitutes human welfare..." Well, of course He does, Dr. Liddle. Don't be stupid. God is far more intelligent than you are; He sees "the big picture" whereas you or I can only see a portion of it. When you don't have all the facts, you jump to hasty conclusions. When you jump to hasty conclusions, you develop false reasoning and ideas. I'm going to post several questions with scriptural answers. This is what the Bible states about the problem of evil. 1. How did evil begin? Evil began on earth when Satan told the first lie. Satan was originally a perfect angel, but “he did not stand fast in the truth.” (John 8:44) He developed a desire for worship that rightly belongs only to God. Satan lied to the first woman, Eve, and persuaded her to obey him instead of God. Adam joined Eve in disobeying God. Adam’s decision led to suffering and death.—Read Genesis 3:1-6, 19. When Satan suggested that Eve disobey God, he was starting a rebellion against God’s sovereignty, or position as Most High. The majority of mankind have joined Satan in rejecting God as their Ruler. Thus, Satan has become “the ruler of the world.”—Read John 14:30; 1 John 5:19. ?2. Was God’s creation defective? All of God’s works are perfect. The humans and angels whom God created were capable of obeying God perfectly. (Deuteronomy 32:4, 5) God created us with the freedom to choose between doing good and doing evil. That freedom gives us a way to express love for God.—Read James 1:13-15; 1 John 5:3. ?3. Why has God allowed suffering until now? For a limited time, Jehovah has allowed rebellion against his sovereignty. Why? To show that no effort to rule without him benefits people. (Ecclesiastes 7:29; 8:9) After 6,000 years of human history, the evidence is clear. Human rulers have failed to eliminate war, crime, injustice, or disease.—Read Jeremiah 10:23; Romans 9:17. In contrast to human rulership, God’s rule benefits those who accept it. (Isaiah 48:17, 18) Soon, Jehovah will bring all human government to an end. Only people who choose to be ruled by God will inhabit the earth.—Isaiah 11:9; Read Daniel 2:44. ?4. What does God’s patience allow us to do? Satan claimed that no one would serve Jehovah out of unselfish love. Would you like to disprove that lie? You can! God’s patience allows all of us to show whether we favor rule by God or rule by man. We indicate our choice by the way we live.—Read Job 1:8-12; Proverbs 27:11. ?5. How can we choose God as our Ruler? We can choose God as our Ruler by seeking out and practicing true worship based on God’s Word, the Bible. (John 4:23) We can reject Satan as our ruler by keeping out of politics and war, as Jesus did.—Read John 17:14. Satan uses his power to promote immoral, harmful practices. When we reject such practices, some friends and relatives may ridicule or oppose us. (1 Peter 4:3, 4) So we face a choice. Will we associate with people who love God? Will we obey his wise and loving laws? If we do, we prove that Satan lied when he claimed that under pressure no one would do as God says.—Read 1 Corinthians 6:9, 10; 15:33. God’s love for mankind guarantees that evil and suffering will end. Those who demonstrate that they believe this will enjoy life on earth forever.—Read John 3:16.Barb
January 20, 2014
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RexTugwell:
Eric and Mapou, are you guys Mormons? If you are, we’ve got bigger disagreements than whether God has a body or not.
I don't belong to any church nor do I go to church. I have a deep distrust of organized religion because I believe they all tell lies and half-truths to support their doctrines and retain their flocks. That's the way I see it.Mapou
January 20, 2014
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Nicely put, Eric Anderson@23 and jerry@26. Lizzie's Lament(tm) seems to be that God gave us free will, so why does "she" not prevent people from doing things that cause suffering and pain? (See the definition of free will). Christians, myself included, believe that God's plan is - To rescue as many people from spiritual condemnation and death as are willing to be saved, showing them love, mercy, and the promise of resurrection to eternal life! - To allow the natural and tragic consequences of selfishness, arrogance, self-will, greed, lustful manipulation, and so on, limited by our lifespans. - To demonstrate the peace, joy, wisdom, gentleness, and generosity that blossoms in genuine Christians despite their suffering, and the personal growth that results because of their suffering. - To expose religious phonies and secular hypocrites, and provide assurance that God's justice is slow but inevitable. -QQuerius
January 20, 2014
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irreparably harmed
The only irreparably harm is the lack of salvation. All other so called harms/evils/sufferings/etc. are insignificant.jerry
January 20, 2014
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Hi everyone, Wow, 27 comments already! That's quick. I'm going to throw a lifeline out to Dr. Liddle, which she may or may not choose to grasp. First, an anecdote. I can remember when I was 15, and my English teacher told me that she believed in God but did not believe in immortality: she thought this life was all we had. My initial reaction was that it would be monstrously unjust of God to make us like that. Second, the concept of irreparable harm. A just God might allow sentient / self-aware / sapient beings to suffer, but could a just God allow sentient / self-aware / sapient beings to be irreparably harmed? And how would you measure that? Got to go now.vjtorley
January 20, 2014
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Eric and Mapou, are you guys Mormons? If you are, we've got bigger disagreements than whether God has a body or not.RexTugwell
January 20, 2014
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Dr. Liddle's argument is a silly one especially for Christians because of Christian belief. According to Dr. Liddle, any discomfort in this world would qualify as an affront to human welfare, even a stubbing of one's toe. The stubbing of one's toe compared to the most horrible thing one can imagine happening to a human is much closer to each other than what God offers because both are finite and limited in time. Christians say that this God offers Dr. Liddle and all the persons of this world something greater than all the riches of the world and her response is to summon this God to the Hague because the offer also includes the possibility of stubbing your toe. I would think the creator is interested in much bigger fish than what this world has to offer. That is what Dr. Liddle fails to understand. Her argument is an absurd one. She is floundering. I will again repeat what I think was one of the great lessons of the Book of Job, namely that we are insignificant compare to an infinite God. We are closer to the worm or slug than we are to the infinite God. The slug has a better understanding of our motives than we do of God. The problem with Dr. Liddle is that she is like a slug trying to tell humans how to do it right. It is much more likely that the slug would get it right than we as humans would about God.jerry
January 20, 2014
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Eric I answered it. There is no creator so why bother pretending that there is one? Life is the way it is. No evil, no good, no right, no wrong. Just survival as long as we can. Oh, and you are the one making the positive claim that god exists so you should provide the evidence. If you claim that fairies don't exist, do I have to tell you to prove it?JLAfan2001
January 20, 2014
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