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A Response to The Materialists’ “Possible Possum” Gambit

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Frequent commenter Popperian often employs the “Possible Possum Gambit.” Here’s how he does it:

Barry:  An effect cannot be brought about by a cause that is incapable of producing the effect.  A pile of bricks can “cause” some things if they are organized in a particular way, a house for instance.  But a pile of bricks is incapable of causing a mental image of an imaginary unicorn.  Why?  It should be obvious, but I will spell it out.  A pile of bricks is in a different ontological category from a mental image of an imaginary unicorn.  Therefore, we can rule out a priori “pile of bricks” as a possible cause of “imaginary unicorn.”

Similarly, the physical chemicals in the brain are incapable of producing the mental images in the mind.  There is a vast, unbridgeable ontological gulf between physical things and mental things.  Therefore, we can rule out, in principle and a priori “chemicals” as a cause of “thoughts.”

Popperian invariable yells “False!  You’ve committed inductivism.”  Before we show why Popperian is wrong, let’s get clear what he is talking about.  Wikipedia describes the issue as follows:

Generalizing about the properties of a class of objects based on some number of observations of particular instances of that class (for example, the inference that “all swans we have seen are white, and therefore all swans are white”, before the discovery of black swans)

So why is Popperian wrong?  Simple, it is not inductivism to assert that things in one ontological category cannot produce effects in another ontological category.  For example, the number “seven” cannot cause the smell of roses.  The color “orange” cannot cause “pi to fifteen digits.”

And if Popperian were to yell, “False! You are committing inductivism,” we would think he is a loon.  This is not the same thing as the black swan error, because we are not inferring a universal principal based upon necessarily limited empirical observations.  Instead, our conclusion is grounded in a more fundamental metaphysical foundation:  logical possibility (or impossibility as the case may be).  In no coherent universe does “seven” cause “smell of roses.”  Therefore, this, like all logically impossible statements, can be ruled out on an a priori basis.

But, Popperian, continues, you don’t know that chemicals cannot cause thoughts.  It’s possible that they do.  This is where Popperian gets “Possible Possum” syndrome.  You remember Possible Possum from the old Deputy Dawg cartoons right?  His catch phrase was “It’s poss-i-bool; it’s poss-i-bool.”  See here.

Well Popperian, that’s not how we do science or metaphysics.  If I say we can rule out a priori “pile of bricks” as a possible cause of “imaginary unicorn” because it is logically impossible for a pile of bricks to cause an imaginary unicorn, it is absurd to stamp your foot and say “You’ve committed the error of inductivism, because it’s poss-i-bool; it’s poss-i-bool!”

Bare, unsupported claims of possibility will not defeat my a priori claim.  You are the one asserting possibility, so it is your burden to demonstrate possibility by outlining a plausible mechanism for how a pile of bricks could cause an imaginary unicorn.  And if you can’t even begin to do so, my claim is unrefuted.

The same goes with my claim that we can exclude “chemicals” on an a priori basis as being a cause of “mental images.”  Again, the bare assertion “it’s poss-i-bool; it’s poss-i-bool” gets you nowhere.  If you say it’s possible, then show us; until then my claim stands unrefuted.

Comments
bFast: Altruistic meaning is the antithesis of Darwinian evolution. That is incorrect. Altruism can be a powerful evolutionary force. A common example is eusocial insects. bFast: Familial altruism makes some sense, but interspecies altruism sufficiently strong as to remove a person’s genes from the pool is by no means unheard of. Not all aspects of altruism need be beneficial to reproduction for it to persist in a population, as long as the benefits outweigh the detriments. Box: You keep telling me that materialism assumes purpose No. Most forms of physicalism are consistent with purpose, such as the desire of an organism to feed. Box: What I’m interested in is grounding purpose / teleology by materialism. Desire isn't grounded in your notions of logic or philosophy. bornagain77: For instance, when pressed for evidence for your neo-Darwinian claims that unguided material processes can produce all the unfathomed integrated complexity we see in life on earth, you misrepresented Lenski’s e-coli adaption of citrate to an oxygenic environment as a prime example of the supposed ‘unlimited’ power of Darwinian processes to build up such unfathomed integrated complexity we see in life. We didn't use the terms "neo-darwinian", "prime example", or "unlimited". Indeed, evolution is quite limited. StephenB: Translation: I will not answer your question. We did answer the question, even providing a link to that answer.Zachriel
August 20, 2015
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Barry Arrington: "My question to you: When the Nucatola says “they want to break even,” what are they selling that they want to break even on? Zach: "Our answer will be found on the other thread." Translation: I will not answer your question.StephenB
August 20, 2015
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Zach states: "Actually, we object to misrepresentation or unsupported claims." Which is yet another lie on your part since you continually misrepresent the exceeding trivial results witnessed for unguided material processes to make completely unsupported, and grandiose, claims for neo-Darwinian evolution. You sir, (at least on UD), are the reigning king of misrepresentation and unsupported claims. For instance, when pressed for evidence for your neo-Darwinian claims that unguided material processes can produce all the unfathomed integrated complexity we see in life on earth, you misrepresented Lenski's e-coli adaption of citrate to an oxygenic environment as a prime example of the supposed 'unlimited' power of Darwinian processes to build up such unfathomed integrated complexity we see in life. As if that trivial adaptation goes even one inch towards explaining how the human brain, which is far more complex than the entire internet combined, can possibly be put together by unguided material processes. Such trivial examples as citrate adaptation and the grandiose claims you make against those trivial examples should be the very definition of unsupported claims we see in dictionaries. notes:
Human brain has more switches than all computers on Earth - November 2010 Excerpt: They found that the brain's complexity is beyond anything they'd imagined, almost to the point of being beyond belief, says Stephen Smith, a professor of molecular and cellular physiology and senior author of the paper describing the study: ...One synapse, by itself, is more like a microprocessor--with both memory-storage and information-processing elements--than a mere on/off switch. In fact, one synapse may contain on the order of 1,000 molecular-scale switches. A single human brain has more switches than all the computers and routers and Internet connections on Earth. http://news.cnet.com/8301-27083_3-20023112-247.html The Half-Truths of Materialist Evolution - DONALD DeMARCO - 02/06/2015 Excerpt: but I would like to direct attention to the unsupportable notion that the human brain, to focus on a single phenomenon, could possibly have evolved by sheer chance. One of the great stumbling blocks for Darwin and other chance evolutionists is explaining how a multitude of factors simultaneously coalesce to form a unified, functioning system. The human brain could not have evolved as a result of the addition of one factor at a time. Its unity and phantasmagorical complexity defies any explanation that relies on pure chance. It would be an underestimation of the first magnitude to say that today’s neurophysiologists know more about the structure and workings of the brain than did Darwin and his associates. Scientists in the field of brain research now inform us that a single human brain contains more molecular-scale switches than all the computers, routers and Internet connections on the entire planet! According to Stephen Smith, a professor of molecular and cellular physiology at the Stanford University School of Medicine, the brain’s complexity is staggering, beyond anything his team of researchers had ever imagined, almost to the point of being beyond belief. In the cerebral cortex alone, each neuron has between 1,000 to 10,000 synapses that result, roughly, in a total of 125 trillion synapses, which is about how many stars fill 1,500 Milky Way galaxies! A single synapse may contain 1,000 molecular-scale switches. A synapse, simply stated, is the place where a nerve impulse passes from one nerve cell to another. Phantasmagorical as this level of unified complexity is, it places us merely at the doorway of the brain’s even deeper mind-boggling organization. Glial cells in the brain assist in neuron speed. These cells outnumber neurons 10 times over, with 860 billion cells. All of this activity is monitored by microglia cells that not only clean up damaged cells but also prune dendrites, forming part of the learning process. The cortex alone contains 100,000 miles of myelin-covered, insulated nerve fibers. The process of mapping the brain would indeed be time-consuming. It would entail identifying every synaptic neuron. If it took a mere second to identify each neuron, it would require four billion years to complete the project. http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/the-half-truths-of-materialist-evolution/ "Complexity Brake" Defies Evolution - August 8, 2012 Excerpt: Consider a neuronal synapse -- the presynaptic terminal has an estimated 1000 distinct proteins. Fully analyzing their possible interactions would take about 2000 years. Or consider the task of fully characterizing the visual cortex of the mouse -- about 2 million neurons. Under the extreme assumption that the neurons in these systems can all interact with each other, analyzing the various combinations will take about 10 million years..., even though it is assumed that the underlying technology speeds up by an order of magnitude each year. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/08/complexity_brak062961.html Component placement optimization in the brain – 1994 As he comments [106], “To current limits of accuracy … the actual placement appears to be the best of all possible layouts; this constitutes strong evidence of perfect optimization.,, among about 40,000,000 alternative layout orderings, the actual ganglion placement in fact requires the least total connection length. http://www.jneurosci.org/content/14/4/2418.abstract The Puzzling Role Of Biophotons In The Brain - Dec. 17, 2010 Excerpt: In recent years, a growing body of evidence shows that photons play an important role in the basic functioning of cells. Most of this evidence comes from turning the lights off and counting the number of photons that cells produce. It turns out, much to many people’s surprise, that many cells, perhaps even most, emit light as they work. In fact, it looks very much as if many cells use light to communicate. There’s certainly evidence that bacteria, plants and even kidney cells communicate in this way. Various groups have even shown that rats brains are literally alight thanks to the photons produced by neurons as they work.,,, ,,, earlier this year, one group showed that spinal neurons in rats can actually conduct light. ,, Rahnama and co point out that neurons contain many light sensitive molecules, such as porphyrin rings, flavinic, pyridinic rings, lipid chromophores and aromatic amino acids. In particular, mitochondria, the machines inside cells which produce energy, contain several prominent chromophores. The presence of light sensitive molecules makes it hard to imagine how they might not be not influenced by biophotons.,,, They go on to suggest that the light channelled by microtubules can help to co-ordinate activities in different parts of the brain. It’s certainly true that electrical activity in the brain is synchronised over distances that cannot be easily explained. Electrical signals travel too slowly to do this job, so something else must be at work.,,, (So) It’s a big jump to assume that photons do this job. http://www.technologyreview.com/view/422069/the-puzzling-role-of-biophotons-in-the-brain/ ,,, zero time lag neuronal synchrony despite long conduction delays - 2008 Excerpt: Multielectrode recordings have revealed zero time lag synchronization among remote cerebral cortical areas. However, the axonal conduction delays among such distant regions can amount to several tens of milliseconds. It is still unclear which mechanism is giving rise to isochronous discharge of widely distributed neurons, despite such latencies,,, Remarkably, synchrony of neuronal activity is not limited to short-range interactions within a cortical patch. Interareal synchronization across cortical regions including interhemispheric areas has been observed in several tasks (7, 9, 11–14).,,, Beyond its functional relevance, the zero time lag synchrony among such distant neuronal ensembles must be established by mechanisms that are able to compensate for the delays involved in the neuronal communication. Latencies in conducting nerve impulses down axonal processes can amount to delays of several tens of milliseconds between the generation of a spike in a presynaptic cell and the elicitation of a postsynaptic potential (16). The question is how, despite such temporal delays, the reciprocal interactions between two brain regions can lead to the associated neural populations to fire in unison (i.e. zero time lag).,,, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2575223/
bornagain77
August 20, 2015
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Zach: Most views of materialism (physicalism) allow for purpose in organisms. In humans, purpose is considered a property of the brain.
Somewhere in a purposeless universe, a amalgamate of matter caught up in a purposeless process — blind unguided purposeless evolution — becomes purposeful? Tell me, what is this purpose in materialistic terms? How does materialism ground it? You keep telling me that materialism assumes purpose, or that things are simply considered to have purpose. We all know that. What I'm interested in is grounding purpose / teleology by materialism.Box
August 20, 2015
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Zachriel (34), "Altruism is not the only way to find meaning." No its not. It is, however, the most potent. The call to altruism is sufficiently strong that it allows people to suicide to attain it. Altruistic meaning is the antithesis of Darwinian evolution. Familial altruism makes some sense, but interspecies altruism sufficiently strong as to remove a person's genes from the pool is by no means unheard of. From a Darwinian perspective, altruism should not even be on the list of sources of meaning -- with the possible exception of familial altruism.bFast
August 20, 2015
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Goodusername: Ingest certain chemicals that affect the physical chemicals of the brain and you’ll see lots unicorns and not just black swans but purple and yellow ones. If you are referring to the class of chemicals I think you are, this is what might happen in recreational or an otherwise irresponsible choice of setting and mindset. At any rate what the experiencer is "seeing" is in the imagination and known to them to be the imagination in these cases. In the correct set and setting what the experiencer may finally be seeing are realms leading to God and known not to be figments of the imagination. This is the purpose for these substances in the first place which brings us back around to the teleological connection.groovamos
August 20, 2015
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Box: You keep offering arguments against materialism. Most views of materialism (physicalism) allow for purpose in organisms. In humans, purpose is considered a property of the brain. Why do you find this problematic?Zachriel
August 20, 2015
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Zach: But a child with a bat has a purpose. So there!
We are in perfect agreement. Way to go Zach! You keep offering arguments against materialism. It makes sense since, as you state in #28, you are not a materialist.Box
August 20, 2015
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Box: So matter, energy and evolution are all without teleology (purpose). But a child with a baseball bat has a purpose. So there!Zachriel
August 20, 2015
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Evolution Is Purposeless and Unguided—Deal with It! Many prominent scientists get it right when they say that evolution is purposeless and unguided. The same is true for plate tectonics, supernovas, radioactive decay, and the weather. If you have a problem with this, read Jerry Coyne at What’s the problem with unguided evolution? and take it up with him. I'm tired of trying to convince theists and accommodationists of something that's as plain as the nose on your face.
Not to beat a dead horse (I think it’s still alive), but I vehemently oppose those evolutionists and accommodationists who won’t affirm that evolution is unguided and purposeless (in the sense of not being directed by a higher intelligence or teleological force). For to the best of our knowledge evolution, like all natural processes, is purposeless and unguided. After all, scientists have no problem saying that the melting of glaciers, the movement of tectonic plates, or the decay of atoms are processes that are unguided and purposeless.
[Larry Moran]
1. Okay! So matter, energy and evolution are all without teleology (purpose). Great! 2. Reason however cannot exist without teleology — e.g. science aims at truth. 3. Materialism cannot ground reason (1&2). 4. Reason exists! Materialism is falseBox
August 20, 2015
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Barry Arrington: My question to you: When the Nucatola says “they want to break even,” what are they selling that they want to break even on? Our answer will be found on the other thread. https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/remedial-logic-for-materialists/#comment-576797Zachriel
August 20, 2015
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Zachriel, In the other thread you posted this quote:
“I think for affiliates, at the end of the day, they’re a nonprofit, they just don’t want to — they want to break even. And if they can do a little better than break even, and do so in a way that seems reasonable, they’re happy to do that,” Nucatola says. But immediately after this statement, Nucatola goes on to say: “Really their bottom line is, they want to break even. Every penny they save is just pennies they give to another patient. To provide a service the patient wouldn’t get.” Planned Parenthood told us that she may have been referring to more general operations of the clinics. http://www.factcheck.org/2015/.....ood-video/
My question to you: When the Nucatola says "they want to break even," what are they selling that they want to break even on?Barry Arrington
August 20, 2015
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bornagain77: the fact is that you defend materialism and/or naturalism tooth and nail day in and day out. Actually, we object to misrepresentation or unsupported claims.Zachriel
August 20, 2015
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bFast: It seems clear to those who analyse our sense of meaning scientifically, that the best way to develop a sense of meaning is through altruism. Altruism is not the only way to find meaning. People find meaning in many different facets of their lives, often through their love of others, but also through love of the creative process, or love of the familiar.Zachriel
August 20, 2015
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You are not a ‘we’ and the fact is that you defend materialism and/or naturalism tooth and nail day in and day out.
Maybe they're not naturalists, either.Daniel King
August 20, 2015
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Zachriel, "It would seem most materialists would reject the universe being teleological, but that doesn’t mean they necessarily reject parochial purpose, such as a child trying to hit a home run." Hmmm, there is a whole line of study in psychology on "meaning". It seems clear to those who analyse our sense of meaning scientifically, that the best way to develop a sense of meaning is through altruism. In an evolutionary world, how the heck? Meaning doesn't come from the home run, it comes from self-sacrifice.bFast
August 20, 2015
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'We’re not materialist' You are not a 'we' and the fact is that you defend materialism and/or naturalism tooth and nail day in and day out. So your denial makes 'you', a real person and not an illusion, a liar.bornagain77
August 20, 2015
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Zach:
Box: Now what you need to understand is that observing teleology in a universe that is supposed to be non-teleological — according to materialism — doesn’t help materialism.
It doesn’t hurt it either.
It doesn't hurt to be contradicted by what is observed?
Zach: For most materialists, purpose is considered a parochial function of the organism.
At issue is the inability to ground that. BTW at the same time most materialists insist that the evolution of life proceeds purposeless and unguided. Baseless assumptions and self-contradictory statements don't count as valid counter-arguments.Box
August 20, 2015
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Box: Your argument at 10:
It is impossible for materialism to ground reason: 1. If materialism is true then the universe, and everything in it, is without teleology (purpose). [--> purpose is inherent to reason as is intensionality] 2. Reason cannot exist without teleology; e.g. science is aimed at truth. [--> inter alia!!!] 3. Materialism cannot ground reason (1 & 2). [--> If materialism, then, not-reason . . . not even computation as computing in the end depends on reason to create it] 4. Reason [--> manifestly, undeniably, self-evidently!] exists. conclusion: Materialism is false
. . . is on target. Not that that will budge those sufficiently determined to reject it. KFkairosfocus
August 20, 2015
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bornagain77: contrary to what you, a person, desperately want to believe, materialism, your philosophy, is one of the most inconsistent philosophies imaginable. We're not materialist, but don't think that how you misrepresent materialism is a persuasive argument.Zachriel
August 20, 2015
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If hydrogen and oxygen show purpose when combining to form water - or water itself shows purpose (ordered to specific, purposeful outcomes like nourishing and sustaining life), then that's a teleological universe.Silver Asiatic
August 20, 2015
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Zach, contrary to what you, a person, desperately want to believe, materialism, your philosophy, is one of the most inconsistent philosophies imaginable. Besides the fact that materialism is empirically falsified by quantum mechanics,
"[while a number of philosophical ideas] may be logically consistent with present quantum mechanics, ...materialism is not." Eugene Wigner Quantum Physics Debunks Materialism - video playlist https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=PL1mr9ZTZb3TViAqtowpvZy5PZpn-MoSK_&v=4C5pq7W5yRM Why Quantum Theory Does Not Support Materialism - By Bruce L Gordon: Excerpt: Because quantum theory is thought to provide the bedrock for our scientific understanding of physical reality, it is to this theory that the materialist inevitably appeals in support of his worldview. But having fled to science in search of a safe haven for his doctrines, the materialist instead finds that quantum theory in fact dissolves and defeats his materialist understanding of the world.,, The underlying problem is this: there are correlations in nature that require a causal explanation but for which no physical explanation is in principle possible. Furthermore, the nonlocalizability of field quanta entails that these entities, whatever they are, fail the criterion of material individuality. So, paradoxically and ironically, the most fundamental constituents and relations of the material world cannot, in principle, be understood in terms of material substances. Since there must be some explanation for these things, the correct explanation will have to be one which is non-physical - and this is plainly incompatible with any and all varieties of materialism. http://www.4truth.net/fourtruthpbscience.aspx?pageid=8589952939
besides being empirically falsified, your philosophy also denies that you really exist as a real person. Yet, the fact that you really exist as a real person is the most sure thing you can possibly know about reality:
David Chalmers on Consciousness (Philosophical Zombies and the Hard Problem) – video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NK1Yo6VbRoo
a few more notes:
"that “You”, your joys and your sorrows, your memories and your ambitions, your sense of personal identity and free will, are in fact no more than the behaviour of a vast assembly of nerve cells and their associated molecules. As Lewis Carroll’s Alice might have phrased: “You’re nothing but a pack of neurons.” This hypothesis is so alien to the ideas of most people today that it can truly be called astonishing.” Francis Crick - "The Astonishing Hypothesis" 1994 “We have so much confidence in our materialist assumptions (which are assumptions, not facts) that something like free will is denied in principle. Maybe it doesn’t exist, but I don’t really know that. Either way, it doesn’t matter because if free will and consciousness are just an illusion, they are the most seamless illusions ever created. Film maker James Cameron wishes he had special effects that good.” Matthew D. Lieberman – neuroscientist – materialist – UCLA professor "What you’re doing is simply instantiating a self: the program run by your neurons which you feel is “you.”" Jerry Coyne https://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2015/04/04/eagleton-on-baggini-on-free-will/ The Confidence of Jerry Coyne - Ross Douthat - January 6, 2014 Excerpt: then halfway through this peroration, we have as an aside the confession that yes, okay, it’s quite possible given materialist premises that “our sense of self is a neuronal illusion.” At which point the entire edifice suddenly looks terribly wobbly — because who, exactly, is doing all of this forging and shaping and purpose-creating if Jerry Coyne, as I understand him (and I assume he understands himself) quite possibly does not actually exist at all? The theme of his argument is the crucial importance of human agency under eliminative materialism, but if under materialist premises the actual agent is quite possibly a fiction, then who exactly is this I who “reads” and “learns” and “teaches,” and why in the universe’s name should my illusory self believe Coyne’s bold proclamation that his illusory self’s purposes are somehow “real” and worthy of devotion and pursuit? (Let alone that they’re morally significant:,,) Read more here: http://douthat.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/01/06/the-confidence-of-jerry-coyne/?_r=0 "The neural circuits in our brain manage the beautifully coordinated and smoothly appropriate behavior of our body. They also produce the entrancing introspective illusion that thoughts really are about stuff in the world. This powerful illusion has been with humanity since language kicked in, as we’ll see. It is the source of at least two other profound myths: that we have purposes that give our actions and lives meaning and that there is a person “in there” steering the body, so to speak." [A.Rosenberg, The Atheist's Guide To Reality, Ch.9]
At the 23:33 minute mark of the following video, Richard Dawkins agrees with materialistic philosophers who say that:
"consciousness is an illusion"
A few minutes later Rowan Williams asks Dawkins
”If consciousness is an illusion…what isn’t?”. Dawkins vs. Williams - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWN4cfh1Fac&t=22m57s
Here Dawkins admits that he cannot live consistently within his worldview
Who wrote Richard Dawkins’s new book? – October 28, 2006 Excerpt: Dawkins: What I do know is that what it feels like to me, and I think to all of us, we don't feel determined. We feel like blaming people for what they do or giving people the credit for what they do. We feel like admiring people for what they do.,,, Manzari: But do you personally see that as an inconsistency in your views? Dawkins: I sort of do. Yes. But it is an inconsistency that we sort of have to live with otherwise life would be intolerable. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2006/10/who_wrote_richard_dawkinss_new002783.html
at 37:51 minute mark of following video, according to the law of identity, it is shown that Richard Dawkins does not exist as a real person: (the unity of Aristotelian Form is also discussed), i.e. ironically, in atheists denying that God really exists, they end up denying that they themselves really exist as a real persons
Atheistic Materialism – Does Richard Dawkins Exist? – video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVCnzq2yTCg&t=37m51s
bornagain77
August 20, 2015
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Box: Now what you need to understand is that observing teleology in a universe that is supposed to be non-teleological — according to materialism — doesn’t help materialism. It doesn't hurt it either. For most materialists, purpose is considered a parochial function of the organism.Zachriel
August 20, 2015
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Zach: People simply observe it. “Look, Dad! I’m going to hit the ball.” Dad pitches the ball. The child swings, and hits the ball.
Sure ppl observe teleology, I agree. Now what you need to understand is that observing teleology in a universe that is supposed to be non-teleological — according to materialism — doesn't help materialism.Box
August 20, 2015
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bornagain77: you need to realize that there is a vast difference between the philosophy of materialism and the people who claim to be materialists. There's some difference. Philosophers tend to confuse themselves a lot. It's hard to be original in philosophy. bornagain77: That materialists, i.e. people, cannot live consistently within the presuppositions of materialism, That's your claim, but materialism is self-consistent, even if you don't find it compelling.Zachriel
August 20, 2015
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Box: It’s not a valid counter-argument to state, as you do: “but most materialists simply assume all that”. People simply observe it. "Look, Dad! I'm going to hit the ball." Dad pitches the ball. The child swings, and hits the ball. https://emmaschildren.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/10198282-happy-father-and-his-son-playing-baseball.jpgZachriel
August 20, 2015
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Zach, You are right. Most materialists assume the existence of purpose, morality, consciousness, reason and so forth. However once in a while it is being pointed out to them that, given materialism, they cannot ground these things. It's not a valid counter-argument to state, as you do: "but most materialists simply assume all that".Box
August 20, 2015
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Zachriel you need to realize that there is a vast difference between the philosophy of materialism and the people who claim to be materialists. That materialists, i.e. people, cannot live consistently within the presuppositions of materialism, i.e. a philosophy, is certainly not proof that the philosophy materialism is true, but it is in fact solid proof that it is false. That such a simple point escapes your grasp does not reflect well on your ability to reason. Such an elementary failure in logic on your part makes me wonder if you are still trying to learn basic stuff, like how to tie your shoes properly.bornagain77
August 20, 2015
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Box: Sometimes materialism seems infinitely malleable and difficult to pin down, Materialism is not a single view, but a multitude of views; hence you can't necessarily pin down materialism, but you should be able to pin down an individual materialist. Box: but materialists seem particularly fond of the concept of a non-teleological universe. It would seem most materialists would reject the universe being teleological, but that doesn't mean they necessarily reject parochial purpose, such as a child trying to hit a home run.Zachriel
August 20, 2015
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Box: 1. If materialism is true then the universe, and everything in it, is without teleology (purpose). Zachriel: The claim was that materialists reject the existence of purpose bornagain77: no the claim is that the philosophy of materialism denies the existence of purpose ... You need to remove the word "no" from that phrase. bornagain77: the claim is that the philosophy of materialism denies the existence of purpose ... Most materialists recognize that a child swinging a bat is purposeful. It's a parochial purpose, that's all. Your precept is false.Zachriel
August 20, 2015
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