Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

A short post on fixation

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

In a recent post, Professor Larry Moran accused me of shifting the goalposts, in order to avoid a discussion about whether evolution could account for the fixation of 22.4 million mutations in the human lineage, since we broke away from the chimps, five million years ago. Not being one to run away from a controversy, I’ve decided to make this question the topic of today’s post.

I’d like to begin by defining the neutral theory of evolution:

“This neutral theory claims that the overwhelming majority of evolutionary changes at the molecular level are not caused by selection acting on advantageous mutants, but by random fixation of selectively neutral or very nearly neutral mutants through the cumulative effect of sampling drift (due to finite population number) under continued input of new mutations.”
(Motoo Kimura, “The neutral theory of molecular evolution: A review of recent evidence,” Japanese Journal of Genetics 66, 367–386 (1991)).

And here’s a handy definition of the term “genetic fixation”:

1. the increase of the frequency of a gene by genetic drift until no other allele is preserved in a specific finite population.
(Stedman’s Medical Dictionary. Copyright 2006 Lippincott Williams & Wilkins.)

“Evidence, please!”

In a previous post, I asked for some experimental evidence to back up Professor Moran’s claim that 22.4 million nearly neutral alleles could have become fixed in the human genome during the last five million years. Were there any other organisms – bacteria, for instance – exhibiting the fixation rate predicted by evolutionary theory for neutral alleles?

Professor Moran kindly provided an example, in his response to my post:

Fortunately for Torley, there are a number of papers that answer his question. The one that I talk about in class is from Richard Lenski’s long-term evolution experiment. Recall that mutation rates are about 10^-10 per generation. If the fixation rate of neutral alleles was equal to the mutation rate then (as predicted by population genetics) then this should be observable in the experiment run by Lenski (now 60,000 generations).

The result is just what you expect. The total number of neutral allele fixations is 35 in the bacterial cultures and this correspond to a mutation rate of 0.9 × 10^-10 or only slightly lower than what is predicted. There are lots of references in the paper and lots of other papers in the literature.

Wielgoss, S., Barrick, J. E., Tenaillon, O., Cruveiller, S., Chane-Woon-Ming, B., Médigue, C., Lenski, R. E. and D. Schneider (2011) Mutation rate inferred from synonymous substitutions in a long-term evolution experiment with Escherichia coli. G3: Genes, Genomes, Genetics 1, 183-186. [doi: 10.1534/g3.111.000406]

The 12 evolving E. coli populations in Richard Lenski’s long term evolution experiment, on June 25, 2008. Image courtesy of Wikipedia.

Initially, I was very impressed with Lenski’s paper, and I was inclined to think that Professor Moran had proved his point. Scientia locuta est, causa finita est. Or so I thought.

A skeptical biochemist

It was then that I was contacted by a scientist who wrote to me, arguing that the fixation of 22.4 million mutations in the human lineage during the last five million years by a combination of selection and genetic drift was impossible and nonsensical for any population of organisms, especially when we consider the pattern of fixation. Strong words! Who was this mysterious scientist? Readers might be surprised to learn that he’s a biochemist with a very impressive track record named Branko Kozulic, whom I introduced to readers in a previous post, titled, The Edge of Evolution? A short summary of his career achievements is available here. Dr. Kozulic also serves on the editorial board of the Intelligent Design journal Bio-Complexity.

By now I was intrigued. Here was a prominent biochemist disagreeing with the arguments of another prominent biochemist! (Larry Moran is a Professor of Biochemistry at the University of Toronto.) Who was right? I decided to investigate the matter further.

There are three different mutation rates

Dr. Kozulic pointed out that we need to distinguish between three different mutation rates:

(a) the number of mutations per base pair per generation, which is indeed roughly constant across all organisms; and

(b) the number of mutations per individual per generation, which varies widely between different kinds of organisms, for reasons that I’ll discuss below; and

(c) the total number of mutations entering the population per generation, which is equal to “the number of gametes produced each generation, 2N, times the probability of a mutation in any one of them, u.” (John Gillespie, Population Genetics: A Concise Guide, Johns Hopkins University Press, 2004, pp. 32-33.)

Professor Moran does make this distinction in some of his posts – for example, this one, where he states that there is “one mutation in every 10 billion base pairs that are replicated,” and then goes on to say that there are “133 new mutations in every zygote.”

Which mutation rate is the fixation rate equal to?

In the passage cited above, Professor Moran referred to Lenski’s long term evolution experiment:

If the fixation rate of neutral alleles was equal to the mutation rate then (as predicted by population genetics) then this should be observable in the experiment run by Lenski (now 60,000 generations).

Did you notice the reference to “the mutation rate”? As we saw above, there are three mutation rates. In chapter two of his book, Population Genetics: A Concise Guide (Johns Hopkins University Press, Baltimore, second edition, 2004), which I’ve been recently perusing, evolutionary biologist John Gillespie repeatedly refers to the mutation rate for a given locus. And in population genetics, altering the numerical relationship between the mutation rate and the (effective) population size can lead to dramatically different results. For example Gillespie, in the textbook referred to above, writes:

If 1/u << N, the time scale of mutation is much less than drift, leading to a population with many unique alleles. If N << 1/u, the time scale of drift is shorter, leading to a population devoid of variation. (2004, p. 31)

Professor Moran is kindly requested to state whether he agrees with this statement, and if not, to provide some references to support his views.

Fixation in human beings: five orders of magnitude faster than in Lenski’s bacteria!

In the passage cited above, Professor Moran referred to Lenski’s results with E. coli bacteria: a mere 35 fixations after 60,000 generations. That’s about 0.0006 fixation events per generation, for the population as a whole.

By contrast, the fixation rate which Professor Moran claims for human beings (130 per generation) was 200,000 times faster than the rate which Lenski observed for his bacteria. That’s a difference of over five orders of magnitude! This difference in fixation rates requires an explanation. Do we agree on this point, Professor Moran?

Finding the cause that explains the pattern

Now, clearly something was responsible for producing the 22.4 million neutral alleles that distinguish the human lineage from that of chimpanzees. Nobody disputes that. What Dr. Kozulic rejects is the idea that all these mutations could have been fixed by any undirected process (e.g. random mutations plus natural selection, or plus genetic drift), within the time available, especially when we consider the pattern of fixed mutations.

I’d now invite readers to have a look at an article by Rasmus Nielsen et al., titled, A Scan for Positively Selected Genes in the Genomes of Humans and Chimpanzees (PLoS Biology, 3(6): e170. doi:10.1371/journal.pbio.0030170, published May 3, 2005). In particular, I’d like readers to check out Figure 1, showing the distributions of nonsynonymous and synonymous nucleotide differences among genes, for the chimpanzee sequence.

What the figure shows is that multiple mutations (up to 21) have become fixed in thousands of different proteins, within the relatively short span of five million years.

In short: it is the pattern of fixation which neither the theory of neutral evolution nor the neo-Darwinian theory of natural selection, nor any combination of the two, can adequately explain. Until Professor Moran comes up with an explanation of his own, and some research to back it up, the ball is squarely in his court.

Over to you, Professor Moran.

Comments
wd400 You say you can't understand the point I am making. You say I am making a "wierd" argument. Let me simplify: I want to know if, and how, either NGD or NS can explain macroevolution. In the case of chimps and humans, you have 'almost' conceded that most of the changes come from regulatory networks. So, then, the basic question is: how does either NGD or NS explain these changes. But you are also basically saying/admitting that 'drift' cannot explain the changes to regulator networks and such. That leaves NS. So, how do you see this happening? If you can lay out a rather plausible scenario, then I'm ready to see things differently. So, as they say, "the ball is on your side of the net."PaV
April 13, 2014
April
04
Apr
13
13
2014
07:31 AM
7
07
31
AM
PDT
wd400: It's very clear, however, that you're not being forthcoming. You insist on being drawn out. The fact is is that if you could demonstrate how these regulatory mechanisms could be built up by NGD---which you did not say could build up such mechanisms(but, of course, this is obvious, and so, of course, you're not going to go down that path)---you would have done so by now. You really have no way of plausibly demonstrating how NS could build up such a mechanism because NS imposes its own kind of constraints, and so does not show a way these mechanisms could be built up (because, of course, you would have shown this to the whole world by now) I suppose you will now take Larry Moran's route and say that it is NOT enough to simply poke holes in population genetics, a positive theory MUST be demonstrated. I’m being honest when I say it’s very hard to extract any point from your comments. I'm sure this is true. Why? Because the plain import of my comments contradicts your personal viewpoint, and you neither care to look at this or to acknowledge it. It's quite simple, isn't it?PaV
April 12, 2014
April
04
Apr
12
12
2014
07:06 AM
7
07
06
AM
PDT
(clearly I mean 'never acted in bad faith' above)wd400
April 11, 2014
April
04
Apr
11
11
2014
06:24 PM
6
06
24
PM
PDT
So, it appears I reached the right conclusion. You were hoping, I suppose, that I would somehow stumble Actually, I don't think evolutionary biology is a game in which one can score points. I've acted in bad faith ('hope you'd stumble') I'm being honest when I say it's very hard to extract any point from your comments. For instance, I have no idea where you think I've claimed drift is responsible for establishing new regulatory networks? Have you read the OP(s) or my posts, or just flown off on your own tangents? The posts are abuot accounting for the observed genetic differences between humans and chimps, the neutral theory explains the majority of those differences. THat's all.wd400
April 11, 2014
April
04
Apr
11
11
2014
06:20 PM
6
06
20
PM
PDT
So, it appears I reached the right conclusion. You were hoping, I suppose, that I would somehow stumble. Well, now that we know that proteins can't do the job, and that regulatory mechanisms must be invoked, we begin to enter, little bit by little bit, the land of Irreducible Complexity, because now DNA sequences must do more than just code for relatively stable molecules, but must 'integrate' various levels of functionality in some kind of feedback loop, or, more to the point (and a pointer to IC), series of feedback loops. Just how do you propose that NGD can accomplish this?PaV
April 11, 2014
April
04
Apr
11
11
2014
06:10 PM
6
06
10
PM
PDT
So why didn’t you say that in the first place???? Because I had no idea you were making such a weird argument. If you are saying something like "If you only look at protein coding genes, you expect x mutations per gene, x is not enough (because I say so) so there just aren't enough mutations" then I'd say why only look at protein coding genes. BTW, I failed to include the link to the 40year olf paper by King and Wilson in my earlier comment: http://www.sciencemag.org/content/188/4184/107.extractwd400
April 11, 2014
April
04
Apr
11
11
2014
05:48 PM
5
05
48
PM
PDT
wd400: I honestly have no idea what point you were trying to make. THe latest seems to be that changes in protein coding genes aren’t, by themselves, enough to explain differences between humans and chimps. Evolutionary biologists have known this for 40 years so I can’t imagine the point you are groping for. So, when you can't refute numbers, and you can't refute logic, you then say: "Oh, we've known that for 40 years." So why didn't you say that in the first place???? Why were you asking me about you 'already knew'? Is it because you want to run and hide---hide from the deficiencies of neutral theory and the whole neo-Darwinian/Darwinian project altogether? I suspect the next thing you'll want to say is: let's talk about Hox genes and evo-devo. If not that, then we'll start talking about how NS comes along and saves the day.PaV
April 11, 2014
April
04
Apr
11
11
2014
05:18 PM
5
05
18
PM
PDT
I didn’t say that, did I? I honestly have no idea what point you were trying to make. THe latest seems to be that changes in protein coding genes aren't, by themselves, enough to explain differences between humans and chimps. Evolutionary biologists have known this for 40 years so I can't imagine the point you are groping for.wd400
April 11, 2014
April
04
Apr
11
11
2014
04:05 PM
4
04
05
PM
PDT
PaV: You are obviously right. The general tendency, in speciation, is that protein effectors appear in great abundance at the beginning (in LUCA), and then they continue to appear, but at a constantly slowing rate. In mammals and primates, the appearance of new protein families is extremely reduced. On the contrary, the differences between species at higher levels are mainly regulatory, and the role of "non translated" DNA becomes increasingly more important. To suggest that the huge differences between chimp and humans can be explained by a few mutations, most of which should be neutral, is real folly.gpuccio
April 11, 2014
April
04
Apr
11
11
2014
03:36 PM
3
03
36
PM
PDT
In my last post I intended to add the following: "IDists have been saying this for years." Here's something from today's Phys.org website.
Planaria deploy an ancient gene expression program in the course of organ regeneration Researchers knew previously that during embryogenesis FoxA initiates formation of endoderm-derived organs in species as diverse as mouse and roundworms. The new work suggests that regenerating tissues exploit those evolutionarily ancient gene expression pathways. "Engulfing food is one thing that defines an animal," says Sánchez Alvarado. "This means that organisms from humans to flatworms use a common toolbox to build a digestive system, one that has been shared since animals became multicellular." Read more at: http://phys.org/news/2014-04-planaria-deploy-ancient-gene-regeneration.html I, personally, have been saying for the last ten years that 'genes' (proteins, basically) are nothing more than a "common toolbox" for animals, and that what changes the basic shape/morphology of various animals is the "blueprint" (=bauplan) of the organism, and that this would be FOUND to be present in what is termed now (then) as "junk-DNA". I have been vindicated many times over since then. And, to ID's credit, and to the shame (if they were capable of admitting they were wrong) of Darwinists. Oh, and BTW, " . . evolutionarily ancient gene expression pathways." Just think: half a billion years of "neutral genetic drift", and the pathways remain the same. Again, the principal function of NS is to "get rid" of defects, not to bring about innovation.
PaV
April 11, 2014
April
04
Apr
11
11
2014
03:33 PM
3
03
33
PM
PDT
wd400: I’m just trying to understand – are you claiming the genetic differences between humans and chimps are insufficient to explain other differences between those species? I didn't say that, did I? Because, the obvious riposte is that "obviously chimps are different from humans, and how can you explain that difference except that their DNA are different." What is clear from these numbers is that the difference between chimp and human proteins is so minuscule that to account for the differences between chimps and humans on the basis of these differences alone---remember! we're talking about the 'coding region' of the genome---is preposterous. Hence, the obvious conclusions are: most, if not all, of the differences between chimps and humans result from changes in the 'non-coding' regions of the genome, and changes to the gametes themselves, i.e., a change in the make-up of the basic cell-type for chimps and humans.PaV
April 11, 2014
April
04
Apr
11
11
2014
03:23 PM
3
03
23
PM
PDT
I'm just trying to understand - are you claiming the genetic differences between humans and chimps are insufficient to explain other differences between those species?wd400
April 9, 2014
April
04
Apr
9
09
2014
04:39 PM
4
04
39
PM
PDT
wd400: Remember, this is the obvserved differnce between humans can chimps. Are you really claiming the observed genetic differences aren’t enough? Surely, you jest.PaV
April 9, 2014
April
04
Apr
9
09
2014
04:31 PM
4
04
31
PM
PDT
wd400: As I have already posted , I would have never dreamed that the per base mutation rate for bacteria would be two orders of magnitude lower than for most mammals and eukaryotes. But, that seems to be the case. And, yes, with large population sizes, they can afford to have this lower rate. I was always given the impression that they had both: larger population sizes, and a higher mutation rate. That might be why vjtorley used a 10^-8 figure instead of 10^-10. And, yes, the bacterial genome is two orders of magnitude smaller than mammalian genomes, so that, taken together, that's four orders of magnitude, giving you 20 mutations instead of 20,000. Point conceded. vjtorley is just now getting up to speed on population genetics. And Dr. Kazulic might not be that familiar with it as well. But, conceding the point, the problem that remains is no longer that there are way too few mutations compared to what should be expected; rather, the problem is that there are simply way 'too few' mutations, period. To think that one a.a. difference per 300-350 a.a. long protein is, on average, capable of explaining the differences between chimps and humans seems to me to be intellectually dishonest. I know that is a strong statement; but I think it is clearly correct. If biology is teaching us anything these days, it is that the 'coding' portion of the genome is much less important in development than the supposed 'non-coding'. Now, the nc portions being, on average, longer than the coding portions, one might expect more than one mutation on average. However, we find that a lot of the nc portions of the genome are 'highly conserved.' In sum, then, we have a Darwinian 'double-whammy' here.PaV
April 9, 2014
April
04
Apr
9
09
2014
04:29 PM
4
04
29
PM
PDT
Half of this is ONE a.a. difference in a gene that is 300 a.a.s long. Remember, this is the obvserved differnce between humans can chimps. Are you really claiming the observed genetic differences aren't enough?wd400
April 9, 2014
April
04
Apr
9
09
2014
04:22 PM
4
04
22
PM
PDT
wd400: I’m sorry, your problem is now that the obverved genetic differences between humans and chimps can’t be sufficient to explain other differences between these species? Here's this from my first post up above:
Half of this is ONE a.a. difference in a gene that is 300 a.a.s long. Can you really say that this is the cause of the chimp/human divide? Is this really the source of the macroevolution that occurred? I simply can’t take these numbers seriously. NS explains “stasis”; it doesn’t explain “macroevolution.” And purely NGD, as gpuccio points out, really doesn’t ‘explain’ much at all. This is why ID and UD exist.
It's been my complaint for about ten years---not just 'now.' You don’t just deny evolutionary biology but also genetics? You've got it entirely wrong. What I'm demonstrating---not just saying---is that EITHER one is forced to deny evolutionary biology, OR, one is forced to deny population genetics. You can't have it both ways. The numbers don't add up---plain and simple.PaV
April 9, 2014
April
04
Apr
9
09
2014
04:13 PM
4
04
13
PM
PDT
I have to say, I find it extradonary that neither VJ Torley, nor any of his fellow travellers have acknowledged the errors that form the basis of this post. Is it that hard to say you, and I guess Dr. Kozulic, are wrong about this?wd400
April 8, 2014
April
04
Apr
8
08
2014
01:02 PM
1
01
02
PM
PDT
(with foes like these...)wd400
April 7, 2014
April
04
Apr
7
07
2014
03:22 PM
3
03
22
PM
PDT
I'm sorry, your problem is now that the obverved genetic differences between humans and chimps can't be sufficient to explain other differences between these species? You don't just deny evolutionary biology but also genetics?wd400
April 7, 2014
April
04
Apr
7
07
2014
03:22 PM
3
03
22
PM
PDT
wd400: There are many ways to test for positive natural selection from genetic data. Instead of writing the ALL CAPS rants about what you think you know, you should learn some population genetics. Are you saying then, that having 'identified' these 'changes' that are attributed to NS that the total number of differences between present day humans and its MCRA is more than 3 b.p.s? I don't see how you can come up with "more" differences that a comparison of genomes gives you. All you can do, as I suggested above, is to come up with some proportion of the already determined differences are due to NGD and how much to NS. But, again, this adds nothing to the differences shown by genome comparisons. So, with NS adding nothing to the total amount of differences with lineages, using a smaller b.p. count for an average protein, and also taking into account synonymous changes of b.p.s, we end up with all of this amounting to but a "single" amino acid change per gene among the two lineages. This extremely small amount of change cannot possibly account for the differences between chimps and humans. Again, you have not disputed the numbers. If you, then, don't dispute the numbers, you must then explain how this value of a single a.a. difference per gene between chimp and human lineages could possibly explain the human/chimp divide. Lacking this explanation, it seems to me that you only end up with lots of equations, but no conclusions. Sorry, but the onus is upon you. If Darwinism/evolutionary biology is to be believed, then credible numbers have to be given. And, if the numbers are not convincing, which they are not, then the underlying understanding of macroevolution should be rejected. As to population genetics, I've read my share, and forgotten a lot of it. I don't work with it every day, or teach it. But I have accessed and own my share of population genetics texts. And I look at their equations, and I look at their numbers, and none of it adds up. If it did, then I would be an evolutionary biologist ally. But it doesn't, so I'm a foe.PaV
April 7, 2014
April
04
Apr
7
07
2014
02:56 PM
2
02
56
PM
PDT
There are many ways to test for positive natural selection from genetic data. Instead of writing the ALL CAPS rants about what you think you know, you should learn some population genetics.wd400
April 7, 2014
April
04
Apr
7
07
2014
01:50 PM
1
01
50
PM
PDT
wd400: Accepting that neutral theory explains most among-genome differenes doesn’t requires us to ditch natural selection for some differences. I don’t know why you find this concept so difficult to grasp, but I’m really not interested in repeating my self again. You can repeat this statement as often as you like---a million times---and, yet, it has absolutely NO explanatory power. It explains nothing---except your "belief" in "evolution" via discrete, material changes. If NGD, on its own, can only produce ONE a.a. change per 'gene' over 5 million years, then, what has NS done? Or, put it another way, if you ascribe the "difference" between 'chimp' genes and 'human' genes as being due to NGD, then how did NS affect anything except to keep the NS/SN ratio of a.a. substitutions below 3:1? Tell me, if NS IS WORKING on mutations, then they have to be the same mutations that constitute NGD. There aren't two separate sets of mutations: one for NGD, and one for NS. When you compare genomes, you're looking for a.a. differences, right? Well, which ones were "changed" because of NGD, and which ones from NS? Can you tell me that? Of course you can't. You simply say: "Just because NGD give us the differences between lineages, doesn't mean that NS isn't working." OK. What is it telling us? You say that NGD explains MOST AMONG-GENOME differences. OK. Then that means that the average 1 a.a. difference between chimps and humans may or may not be due to NGD. This statement only has merit if there are MORE differences between lineages than NGD would predict, because in that case it would be very simple to assume that NS has brought about the excess. In the meantime, you satisfy yourself in saying that "somewhere in all of those changes---minuscule as they are--NS was at work." It doesn't satisfy me. Sorry. You'll have to do better. In the end your left saying this: when we examine chimp and human lineages, we find that the COMBINATION of NGD and NS gives us---after 5 MILLION YEARS OF PUTATIVE EVOLUTION!!!----an average of 1 a.a. difference in a protein consisting of 300 a.a.s. Really? Should I take this seriously? Why? Just because you say that "neutral drift" doesn't preclude NS, isn't enough to make a logical case for how these mechanisms could POSSIBLY work. Wave your hands all you want, I'm simply not impressed. P.S. I noticed you didn't attack my numbers. So, I guess, you're going to have to live with them.PaV
April 7, 2014
April
04
Apr
7
07
2014
01:40 PM
1
01
40
PM
PDT
Gordon Davisson: Thank you for your very interesting post. You are essentially right, I am interested in functional complexity, not in how many neutral mutations may have happened or not happened. As you may know, I have a definite definition of functional information, which is essentially the same as Durston's fits. I believe that all the definitions you refer to are essentially slightly different ways to refer to the same concept: how much information is necessary to implement a function. I am preparing a post about the concept of functional information. The case of Lenski is rather clear. Putting existing elements together in new combinations is certainly new functional information, but it is not necessarily complex. Reactivating a function which is already in the genome can require only a few bits of variation, and that is not a complex transition. That's what happened in the Lenski case. On the contrary, generating a new functional protein superfamily is certainly a complex transition, That's where dFSCI can be safely measured, as Durston has shown. Regarding humans and chimps, the problem is simple: they are very different, phenotipically and functionally. We still don't understand what genomic differences may be responsible for that, be them at the protein gene level or, more likely, at the regulatory level. As soon as we understand well what the sequence differences are that are responsible, at least in part, for the functional acquisitions, we will be able to measure the functional complexity of the transition. I am rather confident that it will be very high. However, the simple concept is that a complex functional transition cannot be explained by neutral variation. As I have tried to argue, neutral variation is irrelevant from that point of view. NS can't do the trick either, but for other reasons. But that's another story...gpuccio
April 7, 2014
April
04
Apr
7
07
2014
01:24 PM
1
01
24
PM
PDT
PaV, I've said this to you approximately a hundred times, this will be the last one: Accepting that neutral theory explains most among-genome differenes doesn't requires us to ditch natural selectoin for some differences. I don't know why you find this concept so difficult to grasp, but I'm really not interested in repeating my self again. but I must say that it is really odd to think that the figure for the bacterial mutation rate is two orders of magnitude less than that of mammals when all one hears is the great mutational prowess of bacteria, and how they so quickly can develop resistance to drugs. In culuture, you have about 1 billion E. coli cells (with their ~5 million bp genome) per mL. You are not going to spend a lot of time wiating for mutations, even with a low mutation rate.wd400
April 7, 2014
April
04
Apr
7
07
2014
11:04 AM
11
11
04
AM
PDT
wd400:
But, given that we know the human mutation rate (mu) is around 1E-8 per base, and the average length of a protein coding gene in human genome is ~1200 bp (with much variance). Under neutrality we’d expect 1E-8 * 1200 bp * 240,000 gen * 2 lineages = ~6 difference per gene. In fact we see on average substantially fewer differences per gene (though some have more, that’s the distribution gene size and poisson distribution for you). That effect is the result of natural selection, since these are genic sequences and we expect mutations that change amino acids to be selected against. And lo, the paper actually breaks the mutations down into those that change the amino acid in question (non-synonmous mutations) and those that don’t. Since ~1/4 of possible nucleotide mutations are synonynous you’d expect the same 3:1 ratio in differences between human chimps in the absence of selection. In fact, more than half of the observed differences are synonymous, the effect of non-synonymous mutations being removed by selection.
First of all, in your calculations you’re using “two lineages”. That’s because NGD is occurring BOTH in chimps and in humans as time moves forward. As far as “human evolution” is concerned, however, what happens in “chimps” after they split off from one another is completely unimportant and unrelated to 'human evolution.' This means that as far as “human evolution” is concerned, we see 3 differences per gene from the MRCA. Maybe you dispute this, but I don’t see any other way of viewing the numbers. Secondly, when you say this: “since these are genic sequences and we expect mutations that change amino acids to be selected against,” we’re seeing the real function of NS in all of this: to ELIMINATE non-synonymous mutations; i.e., when a non-neutral mutation occurs, it is effectively eliminated. IOW, we haven’t seen “positive selection” yet. Everything is EITHER ‘neutral’, or “deleterious” and hence removed. As you say in the next paragraph: this lowered 3:1 ratio is “the effect of non-synonymous mutations being removed by selection.” Based on your numbers then, we have 3 differences per gene having occurred since the lineages split, with one-half of these differences being “synonymous.” That is, in almost 5 million years of “neutral drift with NS”, the human genome has acquired 1.5 differences per gene. The size of the average gene you give as 1200bp. If we assume a smaller average gene size of 300 a.a., then the average difference becomes 3 * 3/4 = 2.125. Half of this is ONE a.a. difference in a gene that is 300 a.a.s long. Can you really say that this is the cause of the chimp/human divide? Is this really the source of the macroevolution that occurred? I simply can't take these numbers seriously. NS explains "stasis"; it doesn't explain "macroevolution." And purely NGD, as gpuccio points out, really doesn't 'explain' much at all. This is why ID and UD exist. As to the bacterial calculations, it is known that the mutation rate of bacteria can become 1,000 greater than normal. Apparently there is controversy over SIM (stress-induced mutagenesis), but I must say that it is really odd to think that the figure for the bacterial mutation rate is two orders of magnitude less than that of mammals when all one hears is the great mutational prowess of bacteria, and how they so quickly can develop resistance to drugs.PaV
April 7, 2014
April
04
Apr
7
07
2014
10:32 AM
10
10
32
AM
PDT
VJTorley, I would attack neutral theory from a different angle instead of fixation. There has been too much internet fixation on gene fixation! If I get around to it I may post, but briefly, neutral theory will grate against polyconstrained DNA. Neutral theory is a frienemy of ID. It's not all bad, and some of it is very good, dare I say, over-the-top good. Neutral theory emerged out of the realization that Natural Selection cannot influence most of the genome for construction as a matter of principle. i.e. You can't select individually for 4 giga base pairs when you only have a population of 10,000 individuals. Impossible, there is too much selection interference. I don't believe fixation is a major flaw in neutral theory, the flaws are: 1. construction of polyconstrained or IC features 2. maintenance of conserved regions The major points in favor of neutral theory: 1. it describes selection's absence in the present and past (but absence of selection doesn't mean random walks can make designs, in fact neutral theorists like Nei would likely argue the illusion design is an accident of our perception, that we're just mistaken like seeing faces in the clouds!) 2. it demonstrates via math that selection as a matter of principle is mostly absent from the genome and morphological features except for vital functions 3. it restates Haldane's dilemma in an alternative way 4. it shows protein polymorphism is not explained by selection and heterozygous advantage is too costly to be a common mechanism of maintaining competing alleles in a populationscordova
April 7, 2014
April
04
Apr
7
07
2014
10:24 AM
10
10
24
AM
PDT
gpuccio:
Random genetic drift is totally irrelevant to our problem of how functional information arises, because it is a random process that bears no relationship to function, and does not modify the probabilistic resources of the system
I (at least mostly) agree that drift is irrelevant to the question of the origin of functional information, but I don't think you can really complain about that here, because it's not the question that was asked. Or at least, it might be what VJTorley meant to ask, but it's not what Larry took the question to be about. If you want an answer about functional information, you must be clear that that is what you are asking about. A big part of the problem is that when someone talks about large-scale (macro) evolution, they might be talking about any of these quite different things: * Large quantities of genetic change. This seems to be what Larry Moran took the question as being about, and if you ask about the 22.4 million mutations in the human lineage this is what you're asking about. Since most genetic change is neutral, any answer that doesn't emphasize neutral evolution is necessarily wrong. * Significant phenotypic changes. In this case, the small fraction of genetic changes that have significant phenotypic effects are what matters, and since they're much more likely to influence reproductive success, selection is much more important here. I think this is what VJTorley originally meant to ask about, but I'm not completely clear... * Reproductive isolation. If you ask about speciation, this is technically what you're asking about. But almost nobody on the antievolution side actually cares much about this, which leads to much miscommunication and frustration... * New genes. Humans do have at least a few novel genes -- "Recent de novo origin of human protein-coding genes" by David G. Knowles and Aoife McLysaght in Genome Research 2009. 19: 1752-1759 identifies three novel human genes, but note that none of them corresponds to much genetic change (they are all closely similar to noncoding regions in chimp etc genenomes), and none has any known phenotypic effect (although one was found to be up-regulated in chronic lymphocytic leukemia). * New functions/information/complexity/etc. If you're interested in something like this (and the rest of your comment suggests you are), you need to be very very clear on exactly what you're asking about, because different people mean different things by them. For example, consider the citrate-using ability that Lenski's bacteria gained. Mike Behe argues that this is not a novel functional element (FCT), because it just put a copy of an existing promoter with a copy of an existing gene. Larry Moran's take on it, though, is that putting existing elements together in a novel combination to get a novel function clearly is a gain of function. And I'd have to agree with him; isn't putting existing elements together in new combinations how most human innovation happens? Even on the ID side, there are a large number of different definitions of functions/information/complexity/etc. There's Dembski's CSI (multiple versions of it), other quite different things called CSI, Behe's FCTs, Kirk Durston's Fits, your dFCSI, kairosfocus' FSCO/I, ... Frankly, for most/all of these, you probably won't get much interest from the evolutionist side. I won't get into why evolutionists don't talk much about these, because it wouldn't be very productive. From the IDist perspective, it's clearly because we're ducking the really important questions; from the evolutionist perspective, it's because we don't really care where you've planted the latest set of goal posts. And then someone will insult someone's mother and it'll turn into a screaming match, and the only thing anyone will learn is what a bunch of jerks everyone on the other side is... I will, however, point out that those on the evolution side are interested in the origin of complexity, just not in the same terms as IDists. Since we're talking about neutral vs. adaptive (selected) evolution, I'll point to PZ Myers article ?EP: Complexity is not usually the product of selection (although note that the headline is misleading -- he's really just arguing that that complexity isn't always the product of selection).Gordon Davisson
April 6, 2014
April
04
Apr
6
06
2014
11:17 PM
11
11
17
PM
PDT
This text sound like is realted to Hardy-Weinberg, and isn't really relevant to this post. Unless you want to explain your question.wd400
April 6, 2014
April
04
Apr
6
06
2014
09:07 PM
9
09
07
PM
PDT
I have a question for wd400 (not intended to exclude others):
Consider in a diploid organism a single locus with just two alleles, A and a. Thus there are three different possible genotypes in the population: AA, Aa and aa. We will make the following assumptions: ... We draw several very important conclusions from this result. First, after one generation the genotype frequencies are completely determined by the initial allele frequencies. - Population Biology: Concepts and Models
Given that this is a post on fixation, what's the difference? What's mutation rate got to do with anything?Mung
April 6, 2014
April
04
Apr
6
06
2014
08:03 PM
8
08
03
PM
PDT
Joe, it must be true. The maths declares it!Mung
April 6, 2014
April
04
Apr
6
06
2014
07:17 PM
7
07
17
PM
PDT
1 2

Leave a Reply