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A Simple Argument For Intelligent Design

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When I come across a new idea, I like to see if there are any relatively simple and obvious arguments that can be levied for or against it.  When I first came across ID, this is the simple argument I used that validated it – IMO – as a real phenomenon and a valid scientific concept.

Simply put, I know intelligent design exists – humans (at least, if not other animals) employ it.  I use it directly.   I know that intelligent design as humans employ it can (but not always) generate phenomena that are easily discernible as products of intelligent design.  Anyone who argues that a battleship’s combination of directed specificity and/or complexity is not discernible from the complexity found in the materials after an avalanche is either committing intellectual dishonesty or willful self-delusion – even if the avalanche was deliberately caused, and even if the rocks were afterward deliberately rearranged to maintain their haphazard distribution.

Some have argued that we only “recognize” human design, and that such recognition may not translate to the intelligent design of non-human intelligence.  The easy answer to that is that first, we do not always recognize the product of human design. In fact, we often design things to have a natural appearance. That we may not recognize all intelligent design is a given and simply skirts the issue of that which we can recognize.

Second, it is again either delusion or dishonesty to ignore a simple hypothetical exercise: in some cases, were we to find certain kinds of objects/phenomena [edited for clarity] on distant,  uninhabited and otherwise desolate planets, would we be able to infer that such  were most likely specifically designed by intelligent creatures of some sort for some purpose?

Again, the obvious answer to this except in cases of delusion or or dishonesty is “yes”.   Then the question becomes: without a scientifically valid means of making such a determination, how would one be made? Intuition? Common sense? Is the recognizable difference between such artifacts and those that appear to be natural not a quantifiable commodity? If not, how do we go about making the case that something we find on such a planet is not a naturally-occurring phenomena, especially in cases that are not so obvious?  There must be some scientifically-acceptable means of making such a determination – after all, resources committed to research depend upon a proper categorical determination; it would quite wasteful attempting to explain a derelict alien spacecraft in terms of natural processes – time and money better spent trying to reverse engineer the design for practical use and attempting to discern the purpose of its features.

Thus, after we make the determination that said object/phenomenon is the product of intelligent design, our investigatory heuristic is different from what it would be were we to assume the artifact is not intelligently designed.  A scientific, categorical distinction is obviously important in future research.

The idea that there is no discernible or quantifiable difference between some products of ID and what nature produces without it, or that such a determination is irrelevant, is absurd. One might argue that the method by which ID proponents make the differential evaluation between natural and product of ID (FSCI, dFSCI, Irreducible Complexity, Semiotic System) is incorrect or insufficient, but one can hardly argue such a difference doesn’t exist or is not quantifiable in some way, nor can they argue that it makes no difference to the investigation.  One can hardly argue, IMO, that those attempts to scientifically describe that difference are unreasonable, because they obviously point at least in spirit to that which obviously marks the difference.  IMO, the argument cannot be against ID in spirit, but rather only about the best way to scientifically account for the obvious difference between some cases of ID and otherwise naturally-occurring phenomena, whether or not that “best accounting” indicts some phenomena as “product of design” that many would prefer not to be the case.

The only intellectually honest position is to admit ID exists; that there is some way to describe the differential in a scientific sense to make useful categorical distinctions (as “best explanation”), and then to accept without ideological preference when that differential is used to make such a determination.  If the best explanation for biological life is that it was intelligently designed, then so be it; this should be of no more concern to any true scientist than if a determination is made that some object found on a distant planet was intelligently designed, or if a feature on Mars is best explained as the product of water erosion.  To categorically deny ID as a valid, scientific explanatory category (arrowheads?  geometric patterns found via Google Earth? battleships? crop circles? space shuttle? potential alien artifacts?) is ideological absurdity.

Comments
Thanks KF. What you have posted above is where my thinking on this matter firmly lays and the reason why I can't seem to find any weight in Gregory's arguments about 'Big-ID' vs 'small-id'. What I had hoped to do was at least try and understand why he makes such a 'Big-Deal' about it when it's obvious to me, and nearly everone else on here, that it's not. It's a very 'small-deal', if at all even something worth discussing. It's like I said in a previous post I think the best thing he could do is discuss with KN privately (if KN is honestly interested in it? As he seems to think.), and then hopefully he can move on in regards to the other discussions being held on UD. End of.PeterJ
February 10, 2013
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G (and PJ): Please, rework in light of inductive logic, and particularly that of inference to best explanation on tested, found reliable signs. In any case, I will note for record, again: 1 --> Yes, we can find objects that credibly exhibit traces of the remote past of origins, a far or deep past that we cannot DIRECTLY observe to know by that, the actual deep past as empirical fact. 2 --> However, this is not unique to this case, there are many objects, such as astronomical ones, that we study be observing traces, e,g. light from the sun and remote stars. 4 --> In this general context, Newton put forth his well known rules of reasoning c 1688 -- 1704, and it is the context in which, generally, we infer through cause-effect reasoning and characteristic consequences of particular causes. Such can be identified as signs. 5 --> We then provisionally but confidently infer on signs, per like causes like. For simple example, we see that certain elements, when hot enough, give off certain spectral lines, and that when white light passes through layers of such, there are absorption lines in the relevant positions. From these, we examine the spectra of stars and infer composition from Fraunhoffer lines. (Sometimes this has led to interesting results, e,g. discovery of Helium as causing unexpected lines in the sun's spectrum.) 6 --> This basic pattern is commonly applied to origins of life and of forms, though this is often marred by a want of observational evidence that certain claimed causes are adequate to claimed effects, especially on OOL and OO body plans. Johnson, whom you deride, has aptly pointed out the injection of an ideological materialist a priori, in the guise of mere "reasonable" methodological constraints. Lewontin's case is most notorious and explicit, but cf here on for much more. 7 --> In the case of functionally specific, complex information and irreducible complexity, these are commonly observed phenomena. In comparing causes dominated by mechanical necessity manifest in lawlike regularities like F = m*a, chance processes yielding statistical variability, and design as known causal factors, it is seen first that necessity does not explain high contingency under similar initial conditions. Indeed, that lack is the sign of a law at work. 8 --> Similarly, high contingency tracing to blind chance, per the results of sampling theory, is at a loss to explain results coming from specific and separately describable UN-representative zones in the field of possibilities. That is, a sample that is necessarily a small grab of a very large space, we can only expect to reflect the BULK of the possibilities. This is how, for instance, we infer to the general pattern of the blood from a small sample. 9 --> We can also show that where we have specific function depending on many well matched, properly arranged and interfaced parts, the zone of functional configs will be a very small fraction of the space of possibilities for the parts. Not only do tornadoes predictably fail to assemble 747's from junkyard parts, but they will fail to do so for something so deceptively simple as a moving coil meter based indicating instrument in its cockpit. 10 --> This is the context in which on empirical and analytical grounds -- once ideological blinkers are removed -- it is clear that functionally specific, complex organisation and/or associated information [FSCO/I] are a strong sign of design as best causal explanation. 11 --> To set a conservative threshold for sufficient complexity, note that 500 bits of explicit or implied information implies 3.27*10^150 possibilities. The 10^57 atoms of our solar system, on its conventionally estimated age, if used to search at one search per 10^-14 s [comparable to the fastest chemical reaction rates] would only be able to sample what we can compare as taking a one straw sized sample to a cubical hay bale as thick as our galaxy, about 1,000 light years. (Light from that far away reaching us now, set out sometime about the time of the Norman Conquest of England.) 12 --> So, we have strong reason indeed to accept that if Chi_500 is at least 1, the object with that much specific info in it, was designed: Chi_500 = I*S - 500, bits beyond the solar system threshold. Now, this has been repeatedly explained to you. Equally repeatedly you have not been able to respond on merits but have ducked, dodged, sought to obfuscate, distract and revert to favourite talking points, not to mention personalities. OAnd BTW, as you did not acknowledge recently when corrected, BITS are a fairly standard info metric.) Please, do better. KFkairosfocus
February 9, 2013
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Gregory Likewise, small-id, though no one that I am aware of calls it that, iow, ‘design theory’ that deals with human designers and designs does what Big-ID theory fails to do; it deals with ‘design processes.’ It can study the who, when, where, how, and sometimes even the why. It is beyond the simply ‘what’ or ‘that’ question that Big-ID tries to bank on. But what if the study of the who, when, where, how, and sometimes even the why, is not going to lead to an explanation ... then what? I think this is possibly where I'm having a little difficulty.PeterJ
February 9, 2013
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O.k. I'll try patience, even though much was already written in the link that you read. small-id or lower case id is a response to Big-ID or upper case ID. Gingerich 2006, et al. Did you read his words? People would see no need to speak of 'small-id' if it weren't for the Big-ID movement which they oppose, for a variety of reason. This is a 'big deal' because it does to Big-ID theory what grandaddy P. Johnson tried to do to (neo-)Darwinian evolution with his Wedge. You're familiar with his Wedge approach, right? Big-ID vs. small-id distinguishes both those who think a 'designer/Designer' can be 'natural scientifically' proven/inferred from those who think it can't as well as those think designers/Designers can actually be studied from those who don't. As a person who studies human beings on a daily basis, it is an insult to intelligence for Big-ID people who are focussed on origins of life, biological origins, and sometimes human origins, to try to tell me they are using small-d (without needing the term 'intelligence') for 'design theory' in their hypotheses. They are simply trying to communicatively trick people in the rare times that they attempt such a manoeuvre, i.e. that Big-ID theory is relevant in small-id domains. Big-ID theory outright refuses *any* study of Designers (whether aliens or gods/Gods). They insist that Big-ID is *not* a theory that addresses (a) 'designer(s)/Designer(s),' only that it IMPLIES (a) 'designer(s)/Designer(s)' Thus, Big-ID is implicationistic - put that in your dictionary if you hadn't heard it before. small-id, otoh, is accepted by all Abrahamic religious believers on faith that the universe is Created (Big-C meaning by a divinity) and that no 'natural scientific' evidence can/need 'prove/infer' that. Likewise, small-id, though no one that I am aware of calls it that, iow, 'design theory' that deals with human designers and designs does what Big-ID theory fails to do; it deals with 'design processes.' It can study the who, when, where, how, and sometimes even the why. It is beyond the simply 'what' or 'that' question that Big-ID tries to bank on. "Look, that artefact *is* designed," said the Big-ID theorist to the 7 yr-old. "Yeah, so what, I already knew that." - 7 yr-old Do you think Big-ID counts as a 'natural science' of human-made things, like the socio-biologists once thought in their reductionistic, materialistic, disenchanting worldview? No, probably not. So the 'big deal' you speak of is when Big-IDists, meaning Intelligent Design Movement proponents/advocates/PR persons, etc. try to conflate the two or waffle between the two distinct meanings for purely promotional purposes. Now that anti-Big-ID folks have seen the waffling, calls for more clear communication are in order. If the IDM and folk at UD and the DI purposely wish to continue to flip-flop, their bluff will be called. If they understand this, then communicative progress can be made. Take a stand; one way or another, but not both. Several brave and/or religiously apologetic persons here have already made their stand. What about you, PeterJ?Gregory
February 9, 2013
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Gregory. Please excuse my lateness, I'm just trying to figure out why this is such a bid deal. 'I wrote clearly in #403: “Big-ID is a theory about biological information, origins of life, and sometimes human origins.”' Okay. And this is clearly different from 'small-id' because ... ? (just a little more patience required Gregory, and I'll hopefully be there)PeterJ
February 9, 2013
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PeterJ, You've come late to the party. My patience will likely be short. The 'natural science-alone' topic is worth discussing. Do you think ID is a 'natural science-alone' theory? Or do you think ID is a science, philosophy, theology/worldview conversation? Or both? I wrote clearly in #403: "Big-ID is a theory about biological information, origins of life, and sometimes human origins." Feigning 'not worth discussing' is not far away from feigning ignorance and irrelevance. I have labelled Big-ID theory a category error for artefacts. If you deem that 'not worth discussing' then I'll likely deem you 'not worth responding to,' and no harm done.Gregory
February 9, 2013
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Gregory, Not that I want to make a big thing about this, but I took the liverty to copy this from your blog post and wondered if you would explain something to me. 'For me and Gingerich and others, the term ‘small-id’ refers to the idea that “God-did-it,” but that we don’t know exactly how and ‘science-alone’ cannot prove it one way or another. This is accepted by a vast majority of TEers and ECers. Indeed, it is the basic Muslim, Christian, Jewish and Baha’i view of the Creation of the Universe. 'Big-ID otoh refers to Discovery Institute as heart of a Movement as well as the view that ‘design/Design’ can be (and even has been!) proven by natural scientific methods, which is promoted by the intelligent design/Intelligent Design movement (or community). Here one has to use both not-capitalized and capitalized forms of id/ID because the IDM or Big-ID community uses both variants whenever they believe it suits them.' What in the above statement is worth discussing? Other than what, IMO, (in the second paragraph) appears to be confusion on your part. Thanks.PeterJ
February 9, 2013
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small-id - God did it. Except when God didn't do it. Everything is designed. Except when it isn't. Observation of the natural world gives evidence of God, unless done "natural scientifically."Mung
February 9, 2013
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Gregory:
If you are an IDist and/or creationist, however, I’m doubtful you will expend the effort.
Then again there are those of us, many of us, who have expended the effort only to find it a waste of time and effort.Mung
February 9, 2013
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PeterJ, Thanks, I got a laugh out of that! :) No, you're not being disrespectful, from what it appears. You're just displaying a lack of familiarity, even yes, lack of knowledge on the topic. That can be remedied if you expend effort to learn what non-IDists actually say. If you are an IDist and/or creationist, however, I'm doubtful you will expend the effort. Top-level scientists and scholars have focussed on the distinction between (lower case) small-id and Big-ID (upper case). It disallows the IDM to communicatively waffle and flip-flop - choose your terms and stick with them and their consequences! But let me guess, you prefer ambiguity and flip-flopping to clarity and precision? Or do you simply know nothing about those scholars and their distinction? As an active scholar (i.e. not just an anonymous blogger) on this particular topic, let me suggest to you that it is very much worth discussing. This is why the IDM has thus far avoided it. Does that make sense to you or will you go on the Big-ID uber alles defensive?Gregory
February 9, 2013
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Where it might really matter,,, Big E small e for macro vs. micro evolution? since Darwinists continually confuse variation within kind as evidence for vertical Evolution.bornagain77
February 9, 2013
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I wonder if there is a "Big R" theory of relativity, and a "little r" theory that is only applicable to humans? Maybe a Big Q and Little Q quantum theory? Big T and little T thermodynamics?William J Murray
February 9, 2013
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Gregory, I don't mean to be in any ways disrespectful here but can you tell me why anyone on here should take the time discussing this topic with you when no one has bothered to discuss it with you on your blog? Look, I may not be a scientist but I can quite easily see why. There really is nothing there worth discussing. I honestly believe you need to let this go and move on. I think it may do you some good.PeterJ
February 9, 2013
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You're welcome, PeterJ. I don't mind. Yes. Just click on my name.Gregory
February 9, 2013
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Gregory, I ran a google search and found this. http://humanextension.wordpress.com/2012/08/20/big-id-and-small-id/ I hope y7ou don't mind me asking but with this be something to do with you?PeterJ
February 9, 2013
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Thanks Gregory, but the link doesn't seem to be working.PeterJ
February 9, 2013
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PeterJ, Thanks for being 'perfectly honest': "I just don’t think many people see it as something worth discussing." Yes, that is a significant problem, whether you admit it or not. Lack of communicative respect or understanding. You may not see it as a problem because you are an IDist and you actually mean to speak for or on behalf of "people inside the IDM". But folks outside of the IDM, non-Big-IDists do see it as 'worth discussing'. See "here for my definitions.Gregory
February 9, 2013
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Lol@Gregory "To those (seemingly in the minority at UD) who refuse to distinguish ‘Big-ID’ and ‘small-id.’" I'll be perfectly honest with you Gregory, I just don't think many people see it as something worth discussing. If you and KN think it is then perhaps the pair of you would be better to email each other privately. You could then both discuss it till the cows come home. Okay, I may regret this, but can you please define for me what both ‘Big-ID’ and ‘small-id.’ are. It would be good to have a refresher on this matter. ThanksPeterJ
February 9, 2013
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To those (seemingly in the minority at UD) who refuse to distinguish ‘Big-ID’ and ‘small-id.’ This thread involved a very simple argument/thesis, which got UD buzzing with all sorts of claims, proclamations, accusations, even character impugning and evidence-based flip-flopping. 402 posts already, one of the busiest UD threads in several months! My main point here is simple and it has been acknowledged already and most succinctly by Kantian Naturalist, who like myself is not a Big-IDist (though probably he doesn't accept small-id, while I do). Here's the way I see it:
1) Is the concept duo of ‘intelligent design’ as used by W.J. Murray in the OP in any way connected with the IDM and its ‘Big-ID theory’ as defined by W. Dembski (founder of this blog), S.C. Meyer, M. Behe, et al. or not? Iow, 2) does it appear that Murray is attempting to make an improper and misleading transfer of language from Big-ID to small-id?
Let’s return to this very basic topic. Answers have so far been wobbly here, like ‘little-big-tent’ inconsistent-wobbly. My clear, direct, non-avoiding answer to the first question is: No. Does anyone at UD wish to disagree? Speak now or your held-tongues will be noted. If you disagree, please provide a real name (not an internet sock puppet) for this living and active ID theorist of human-made things like battleships and link to a published work or site to find this person. If you cannot name a person, I will consider any disagreement empty and invalid (sophistry of the 'you-know-who' variety). W.J. Murray writes: “[Big-]ID [theory] is supposed to be the best explanation for the existence of a battleship.” Right, human beings make battleships. On this point, I agree with W.J. Murray! We can study the small-d 'designers' of battleships, i.e. where, when, who, how and even why. But that’s not 'Intelligent Design' theory because Big-ID is a theory about biological information, origins of life, and sometimes human origins (all in the distant past). Again, would anyone here disagree with this? Battleships are very recently (in terms of ‘big history’) examples of human-made artefacts. It is thus a blatant category error to mistake these themes. I have yet to see a coherent or scholarly explanation for why human-made artefacts vs. non-human-made entities are not properly distinguished in different categories. Only 'universalistic designism/Designism' (cf. Creationism) contends otherwise. Most educated people understand clearly the difference between theoretical and non-theoretical claims. They recognise that there’s no use spending time on individualistic (ID) jargon as if it carries the force of a scientific, cultural, political, religious or social ‘school’ or ‘movement.’ The followers of the IDM simply need to see that they're mimicking, replicating, regurgitation, or reproducing language conceived or imagined by someone else. It is not their independent genius that coined the concept duo 'intelligent design/Intelligent Design,' which they now seek to use as a 'simple argument.' To the second question above, the answer seems also rather straightforward: Yes, Murray is attempting to make an improper and misleading terminological transfer. That’s the main point I wished to express and to inquire if people here thought there was an actual (small-id) ‘intelligent design’ (with those TWO SPECIFIC CONCEPTS used purposefully together) theory/paradigm proposed for human-made things. If you want to face my challenge, then face that. After more than 10 years, a successfully defended master’s thesis (one of a rare few) on the topic and countless hours reading books and articles and sometimes listening to and even occasionally meeting Big-ID leaders (cf. Discovery Institute fellows) and anti-Big-ID scholars, theologians and journalists, this conclusion seems to me to be an example of ‘following the evidence where it leads.’ It seems to be responsible. It seems to display academic integrity. I followed the evidence; there is no (and likely will never be, a specifically called) ‘intelligent design’ theory of human-made things. Respectfully, W.J. Murray should either openly acknowledge this or contend otherwise here in public.Gregory
February 9, 2013
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es58 (and Mung, who also raised this issue, I believe): You make a good point.Eric Anderson
January 29, 2013
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re my posts at 142 and 144 guess I'm just a broken record, because, found the same concept in a post 2 years earlier
es58September 10, 2005 at 10:46 pm Question: If Dawkins has no problem saying that living things “appear designed”, shouldn’t he, as a scientist, be prepared to give a rigorous definition of what design is. He seems to claim simultaneously that there is no valid way of making claims such as irreducible complexity/specificied complexity, yet feels very free to use the term design as he pleases. Why shouldn’t the burden of definition fall on him?
es58
January 29, 2013
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"And we share the same taste in wives, hence the brevity!" My wife doesn't know that I have commented here in the last 2 days so I better quit while I am still alive. Thanks everyone for the kind words. Maybe I will comment some more in the future but haven't read much about ID in the last couple years and don't plan to spend much time on it. If I see that theodicy is being discussed, I will put in my 2 cents since I believe it is a non issue not only for ID but everything else. I believe there is only one evil and everything else is trivial. Thus, the concept is an empty one. But then I never found anyone who could adequately define evil.jerry
January 28, 2013
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Andwe share the same taste in wives, hence the brevity!Alan Fox
January 28, 2013
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Let me add my 2 cents. I too recall Jerry as a commenter from a few years back. I suggest Jerry is a commenter who would pass the Turing test. While I may fundamentally disagree with him on many issues, I don't doubt his humanity, his genuineness.Alan Fox
January 28, 2013
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Jerry, It seems we may have crossed paths years back also. I was much more sympathetic to ID the first couple of years I studied it. So, it seems our trajectories have different stories to tell. In regard to you view that theodicy is a 'non-issue' for ID, it seems the Director of the Centre for Science and Culture, Stephen C. Meyer, one of the IDM's leaders, disagrees with you. Here he agrees with one of the most insightful and broad thinking commentators on the IDM and ID theory, which is Steve Fuller (known for Dover Trial, Expelled film, Nova on ID, most recently in the Hawking vs. Philosophy discussion/debate - I chuckled when Fuller called Hawking 'parasitic' - this could easily be featured at UD). Here's a snipped transcript from the video featured here at UD recently:
“The relationship between theology and science…the kind of science that Steve Meyer’s defending...and there’s hovering in the background; he doesn’t say it explicitly, but I’ll say it explicitly, is that there’s some notion of divine agency…It has a very particular theological provenance.” “Why don’t theistic evolutionist people want to embrace the intelligent design argument?” “if you really get serious about what divine agency is” What eventually you have to do “if you’re going to have this tight integration of science and theology you have to square it with the theology” “If intelligent design just stays at the level of pattern recognition…design detection…that’s not a science, that’s like the first step of a science, that’s the data gathering part of the science…I do think it’s important that the idea of intelligence get put on the table and that there be a clear definition of it.” “Then there’s the nature of the agent that’s instantiating this intelligence.”
“The frustrating thing for me was the lack of time to tell you how much I agree with what you’re saying.” … “I’ve been thinking about this for a week.” – Stephen C. Meyer (47:50) "Dembski and Nelson are both “orthodox biblical Christians, as am I.” “I think that it should be part of the ID movement, it is at least in principle possible that empirical data…could adjudicate these different models of theodicy.” “I’m affirming the basic point you’re making.” – Meyer to Fuller
“Steve Meyer basically said that this is a direction, the thing I was talking about getting into the larger theologically maximalist issues of theodicy is something that the IDM is moving into and will move into more in the future” {“or at least some members of it who have those theological [leanings]” – Meyer} “I don’t want this point to disappear, namely that one might be able to adjudicate between alternative models of theodicy with empirical evidence. Now that is very interesting and boy oh boy is that going to send some people to the hills!” … “I agree with Steve Meyer in that line of thinking that ID move in that kind of direction, that in a sense we revive theodicy as a kind of empirically grounded discipline.” – Steve Fuller
I may come back in a few days to respond to some of the comments in this thread re: small-id and Big-ID, the DI's cancellation of its Humanities and Social Sciences 'Big-ID' summer program, etc. But for now, welcome back to the 'little-big tent' of the IDM, where people can disagree completely with each other and still claim to be part of a single 'community' that believes in 'design in nature,' both/either using classical theological 'design arguments' and/or post-modern quasi-scientific 'design/Design' reasoning.Gregory
January 28, 2013
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Thanks Mung The link took me to some stuff further down more immediately relevant to my project, which is great... notably, that like almost everyone in the early Christian period (ie until after 1500), the state of Creation was considered still to be good, as first made, despite the Fall. Man himself being the exception, of course. The "traditional view" is not traditional at all (but derived from humanism, which is another story). So Gregory Nyzianzus spends most of his oration (after his nod to Paley and ID) pointing out the wisdom of God in creating herbivores and carnivores, in their succession through the cycle of life and death, and so on, concluding that since the wisdom of all this is beyond our comprehension, how much more must be the wisdom of God, the source of it all. Gregory N was one hugely important theologian, both for East and West (or actually one among three - the Cappadocian Fathers; two brothers and a friend. All had a high view of the goodness of creation). Not relevant to this thread (so what else is new?) but very imporatant to the debate, nonetheless.Jon Garvey
January 28, 2013
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"But my wife would kill me if I decided to get involved again."
Just get her involved, and then it won't be a problem. ;) Seriously, I also find that when I start commenting, I tend to accomplish little else. I have to force myself to quit.Chance Ratcliff
January 28, 2013
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I remember reading somewhere, it being suggested that ATP synthase would make a better symbol for ID than the flagellar motor.Chance Ratcliff
January 28, 2013
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Speaking of 2007, lol: https://uncommondescent.com/molecular-animations/molecular-motor-fueled-by-atp-synthase/Mung
January 28, 2013
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"On the question of theodicy, I have never understood why Christians do not accept the doctrine of the fall as the answer to all the problems that followed that event."
For me, it pushes the problem back to why God allowed Man. We have to assume that God was perfectly righteous in speaking creation into existence; and that, even considering eternal states of judgment, creation is still warranted to the point of being necessarily good. Therein lies the problem, for me at least; that creation is still perfectly good when there are souls, who wouldn't otherwise have existed, eternally damned. It's at least a mystery, if not a conundrum.Chance Ratcliff
January 28, 2013
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