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A Simple Argument For Intelligent Design

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When I come across a new idea, I like to see if there are any relatively simple and obvious arguments that can be levied for or against it.  When I first came across ID, this is the simple argument I used that validated it – IMO – as a real phenomenon and a valid scientific concept.

Simply put, I know intelligent design exists – humans (at least, if not other animals) employ it.  I use it directly.   I know that intelligent design as humans employ it can (but not always) generate phenomena that are easily discernible as products of intelligent design.  Anyone who argues that a battleship’s combination of directed specificity and/or complexity is not discernible from the complexity found in the materials after an avalanche is either committing intellectual dishonesty or willful self-delusion – even if the avalanche was deliberately caused, and even if the rocks were afterward deliberately rearranged to maintain their haphazard distribution.

Some have argued that we only “recognize” human design, and that such recognition may not translate to the intelligent design of non-human intelligence.  The easy answer to that is that first, we do not always recognize the product of human design. In fact, we often design things to have a natural appearance. That we may not recognize all intelligent design is a given and simply skirts the issue of that which we can recognize.

Second, it is again either delusion or dishonesty to ignore a simple hypothetical exercise: in some cases, were we to find certain kinds of objects/phenomena [edited for clarity] on distant,  uninhabited and otherwise desolate planets, would we be able to infer that such  were most likely specifically designed by intelligent creatures of some sort for some purpose?

Again, the obvious answer to this except in cases of delusion or or dishonesty is “yes”.   Then the question becomes: without a scientifically valid means of making such a determination, how would one be made? Intuition? Common sense? Is the recognizable difference between such artifacts and those that appear to be natural not a quantifiable commodity? If not, how do we go about making the case that something we find on such a planet is not a naturally-occurring phenomena, especially in cases that are not so obvious?  There must be some scientifically-acceptable means of making such a determination – after all, resources committed to research depend upon a proper categorical determination; it would quite wasteful attempting to explain a derelict alien spacecraft in terms of natural processes – time and money better spent trying to reverse engineer the design for practical use and attempting to discern the purpose of its features.

Thus, after we make the determination that said object/phenomenon is the product of intelligent design, our investigatory heuristic is different from what it would be were we to assume the artifact is not intelligently designed.  A scientific, categorical distinction is obviously important in future research.

The idea that there is no discernible or quantifiable difference between some products of ID and what nature produces without it, or that such a determination is irrelevant, is absurd. One might argue that the method by which ID proponents make the differential evaluation between natural and product of ID (FSCI, dFSCI, Irreducible Complexity, Semiotic System) is incorrect or insufficient, but one can hardly argue such a difference doesn’t exist or is not quantifiable in some way, nor can they argue that it makes no difference to the investigation.  One can hardly argue, IMO, that those attempts to scientifically describe that difference are unreasonable, because they obviously point at least in spirit to that which obviously marks the difference.  IMO, the argument cannot be against ID in spirit, but rather only about the best way to scientifically account for the obvious difference between some cases of ID and otherwise naturally-occurring phenomena, whether or not that “best accounting” indicts some phenomena as “product of design” that many would prefer not to be the case.

The only intellectually honest position is to admit ID exists; that there is some way to describe the differential in a scientific sense to make useful categorical distinctions (as “best explanation”), and then to accept without ideological preference when that differential is used to make such a determination.  If the best explanation for biological life is that it was intelligently designed, then so be it; this should be of no more concern to any true scientist than if a determination is made that some object found on a distant planet was intelligently designed, or if a feature on Mars is best explained as the product of water erosion.  To categorically deny ID as a valid, scientific explanatory category (arrowheads?  geometric patterns found via Google Earth? battleships? crop circles? space shuttle? potential alien artifacts?) is ideological absurdity.

Comments
WJM: At this point, pardon my doubts, but I doubt that G is doing more than skimming the thread and scooping up hooks to reiterate his own long since addressed and corrected, past dump by date assertions. This is like ever so many before him who we could name, and what it goes to is letting the astute onlooker see that the reason someone acts like this, is that they have no really sound answer on the merits of observational fact and cogent analysis relative to such. As to the tired old no quantification of design detection game, above we saw a LIVE case, using a metric that is rooted in the underlying analysis of specific and specified zones in a much larger config space and the search resources to go looking for the needle in the haystack by blind mechanisms tracing to chance and necessity. G simply brushed it aside, not because he has a real answer but because it was in his way of drumming on his favourite rhetorical drums. In short, all of this is a grand exercise in irrelevancy by way of distraction. Sadly, with a bit of contempt laced atmosphere poisoning and well poisoning tossed in. Worse, when we have paused and looked at the taxonomy he has suggested and championed, we see that it is tendentious and insidiously poisonous. However, the danger is, we are going up against a largely successful but deceitful smear ("ID is Creationism in a cheap tuxedo . . . "), so many people will be taken in by it. Regardless of the actual evident facts. My conclusion on that one, is that those who create or sustain or support smears and false narratives like that, are responsible for the damage they do by such means. And sooner or later, there will be a day of reckoning. The key matter is plain. There is obviously a major difference between a pile of ore-rocks and a battleship, above and beyond the already intelligently designed counterflow processing required to generate the alloys etc required and to process them into sheets of armour, or gun tubes etc. (Do yo want to go down the lines of the wire wound gun favoured by the British for large guns up to the end of the WW I era? Cordite vs single base powder? Lyddite vs TNT? The fatal difference that made at Jutland when multiplied by careless powder handling in the interests of firing shells as fast as possible?) Even more obviously, Battleships are built in accordance with carefully calculated and drawn designs, which also require a technological evolution of "eating your mistakes." (That is why something like Warspite was in a different league from Viribus Unitis or Dreadnought herself [essentially obsolete by 1916 . . . didn't even fight at Jutland], and these were both well beyond Texas or Majestic, or going back even further, Warrior. And again, that is why Tirpitz, or a KGV, or Iowa or Yamato were again well beyond ships of the WW I era, even those of the famous 5th battle Squadron such as Warspite. And I need not speak about the fatal compromises of the British battlecruisers Invincible et al by contrast with say Derfflinger or Lutzow [three lost to sudden explosions at Jutland], though it is obvious that the fast battleships of WW II picked up on the idea of adding speed to protection and heavy guns.) The very existence of those drawings with the calculations behind them, points to how we can reduce such to structured and linked strings of stored information using AutoCAD or the like. That can give us at least a reasonable order of magnitude estimate on the information content in the careful organisation required to make a functional battleship. (I hardly need to highlight the sort of configurational constraints that had to be met for the ship to work and be successful as a fleet weapons platform in the face of 11" or 12" shellfire and up, at the equivalent of a Jutland. Let's just say, that -- though innovative in some ways -- the Austrian ships were marginal, as the loss of St Istvan showed.) Of course, such drawings can also be worked up from observing and drawing from the actual object, as is a common exercise for architecture or engineering students. Or, in archaeology. And again, the sampling theory, needle in the haystack result still obtains, if you want quantification. Once you are reasonably beyond 500 functionally specific bits, you have something that is maximally unlikely to have come about by the atomic resources of our solar system running at 10^14 ops per second [fast chem rxn rate], to have found by a blind chance and mechanical necessity search procedure. And by maximally unlikely, I mean, the equivalent of tasking a one straw sized sample from a cubical haystack 1,000 light years on the side, about the thickness of our galaxy. If such were superposed on our galactic neighbourhood, there would be thousands of stars in it, but there would be so much otherwise empty space filled with notional straw, that he overwhelming sampling theory result is that such a blind sample would with all but certainty pick straw and nothing else. That is why there is nothing exotic int eh log reduced expression: Chi_500 = I*S - 500, bits beyond the solar system threshold. If it goes positive on a reasonable estimate for the specific info content of an object, we can be reasonably assured that that object was produced by the only observed process that produces FSCO/I: design. Of course, that indicates that the living cell is designed and major body plans are designed. Which as we all know, is verboten in certain quarters. Tough luck. Until and unless, such can show us that nature acting freely and blindly by mechanical necessity and chance processes can and does spontaneously generate FSCO/I we have every epistemic right to accept that the best causal explanation for entities or aspects of objects exhibiting FSCO/I, is design. That, in one form or another has been on the table for years, many years. Indeed, if we count all the way back to Wicken and Orgel, 30 - 40 years. A full generation. After all that time, what the objectors have is rhetoric (as we have seen yet again in this thread), not observed cases, and in the pivotal case of OOL, the matter is far worse today than 40 years ago. That tells us that we are on to something, and that it is revolutionary in implications in the teeth of a science, education and culture elite establishment dominated by a priori materialism and its fellow travellers. To which, as one whose spiritual heritage goes back to the heirs of the man who said unless he could be convinced by direct evidence and cogent reason, he stood where he stood and could do no other but stand on his convictions and the evidence and reasoning that had led him there, that is fine by me. Let today's Diets scheme and scream as they will, in the end, absent ability to actually show us good observational reason for their claims, they will plainly lose. Lose in a way that is not going to look good in the history books to be written, when the current mess is sorted out. (Like how I am seeing the way the Eastern Roman Empire collapsed from 1071 on, through rash and even treacherous battle field tactics in the teeth of centuries of counsel and training otherwise, multiplied by a decade of in-fighting that let the Turkish hordes devastate central Anatolia. They just were never the same again after that decade. My take home lesson, is that you can make nonsense sound good and gain political success with it all you want, one day, there comes a day of reckoning, and too often that is going to be a battlefield. The deadly British battlecruiser failure and the related failure of British shells at Jutland comes to mind as a more recent example, as well as the dreadful first day on the Somme, so also the horror Petain faced -- having warned and been sidelined for it -- of paying a devastating price in blood to hold the line, marching men to near certain death by the tens of thousands, in payment for blunders made by others; but having to simply let his heart lurch as he stood by the road watching the young men of 1916 march to the front at Verdun to hold the Kaiser off fr the sake of France, at the price of rivers of blood. All, in that fateful year, 1916. And, I do not envy his fate in old age, of having to come out of retirement to lead a rump French state under the German thumb, because the next time around, they could not hold the line against the Panzers. When will we wake up to our own follies? [Pardon, let me get back to this specific -- though connected -- matter. We need to wake up and understand that playing politics and rhetoric games with serious matters with sobering potential consequences is not good enough, not by a long, long, long shot. And yet, there are ever so many examples of the march of folly in history.]) On the track record of these 40 years since Orgel, they aren't even close. Let us state the obvious, regardless of who wants to deny it and play rhetorical games to evade the obvious facts. A battleship is plainly distinct from a pile of ore rocks, just as if we sere to find a space version sitting under a pile of rocks on Mars, or one shot through but in the process of von Neumann self replication when so destroyed in the asteroid belt, we would have excellent reason to reach one and the same conclusion. The difference between a battleship and a pile of rocks is plainly -- on abundant empirical evidence, and analysis to back it up -- design. And if we cannot face something as obvious as that, something is wrong. Deeply, terribly wrong. KFkairosfocus
January 27, 2013
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Gregory:
I’ll tell you why: because small-id theorists, i.e. the *real* design theorists, predominantly (with experience from several hundreds during my presentation at a small-id major international event) don’t want anything to do with the ideological and political movement of Big-ID that is quite obviously focused on OoL, OoBI, (neo-)Darwinism, and plainly *not* on human-made things.
Since it is you and your crowd that want nothing to do with us, why are you blaming us, lol?Mung
January 27, 2013
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Gregory:
Iow, we know we can study human beings as small-d ‘designers.’
I thought small i small d intelligent design meant GODDIDIT!Mung
January 27, 2013
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Gregory:
So why doesn’t the IDM dedicate the lion’s share of its resources to studying ‘designing’ processes by known designers in the present (and future) tense?
Why would it need to be the lion's share? And, if it is as you say that others are already doing this work, why should the DI waste resources doing what is already being done?
Folks, it doesn’t take a rocket scientist, brain surgeon or cognitive studies/philosophy of mind major to recognise that human beings can be studied in their/our ‘design processes.’
As I've said in the past, this is a point at which I actually agree with Gregory. We can study design and designers and I think it could be good to incorporate more from the literature on design. And yes, Gregory, I have books on this very thing, e.g., How Designers Think: The Design Process Demystified But given Gregory's view that we cannot make inferences based on what we find studying human designers, what would be the point???
... the IDM’s claim, as demonstrated by Dembski, Behe, Meyer, Nelson, Wells, et al. that ID theory *cannot* in principle study ‘designers/Designers’ is simply false.
Or you're lying. Again.Mung
January 27, 2013
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I should really have specified that this capacity for (literally in Hawking's case, here) infinite folly, on the part of the most distinguished intellectuals, is always allied to a deficit of divine grace in terms of wisdom.Axel
January 27, 2013
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First, not a single DI fellow is an anthropologist, sociologist or psychologist, the three main fields that study ‘human intelligence.’
So? Neither is Adrian Bejan.Mung
January 27, 2013
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Timaeus, for what it's worth, Greg can't use Dawkins Defence against debating with Christian 'attack-dogs', such as William Lane Craig, so he likewise feels inordinately threatened by the arguments also actually speaking to the issues, on this forum - hence the animus. However, you should bear in mind that a man with a brilliant intelligence, such as Stephen Hawking, can simultaneously be a total - and I mean, 'total' - idiot, as described in the quote from a BA post on another thread: 'BRUCE GORDON: Hawking’s irrational arguments – October 2010 Excerpt: What is worse, multiplying without limit the opportunities for any event to happen in the context of a multiverse – where it is alleged that anything can spontaneously jump into existence without cause – produces a situation in which no absurdity is beyond the pale. For instance, we find multiverse cosmologists debating the “Boltzmann Brain” problem: In the most “reasonable” models for a multiverse, it is immeasurably more likely that our consciousness is associated with a brain that has spontaneously fluctuated into existence in the quantum vacuum than it is that we have parents and exist in an orderly universe with a 13.7 billion-year history. This is absurd. The multiverse hypothesis is therefore falsified because it renders false what we know to be true about ourselves. Clearly, embracing the multiverse idea entails a nihilistic irrationality that destroys the very possibility of science.' So, Timaeus, never be surprised at the depth of the folly the intelligentsia's finest can plumb - never mind poor, old Greg. As regards Greg and his fellow Estabishment myrmidons, 'do not look for figs to grow on thorns'.Axel
January 27, 2013
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Mung: I would like to propose a third category, BIG I BIG D INTELLIGENT DESIGN! Gregory: Go ahead then, Mung. By all means do so. Great idea!
ok, but first some ground rules. BIG I BIG D INTELLIGENT DESIGN is what you call small i small d intelligent design. It starts with the idea of God as Creator. (Most people would just us the word Creationism. I don't know what wrong with these people. Why they have taken on the mantle of intelligent design. No doubt an interesting sociological study in it's own right.) So you'll need to start using he terms appropriate to what is meant, and have all your colleagues, such as Gingerich, get on board as well. Then we can all fight it out over who gets to use small i small d intelligent design and what it means. Yes, Gregory, I am laying it all on the feet of those who have decided, for whatever reason, to use "intelligent design" to describe their view when previously they would never have thought to do so. For money, perhaps? The latest fad, and all that?)Mung
January 27, 2013
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I looked up Gregory’s links to Bejan.
I bought his book. I hope I don't regret it, but I probably will, lol.Mung
January 27, 2013
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KF Bejan's "law", then... apologies for consistent typo above. "Bejam" was a UK frozen food retailer... Bejan's law only applies to human design by downplaying the one thing that we know from experience to be vital for it, that is human foresight, purpose and planning. To say one disagrees with him on that particular human aspect, but agrees when he applies exactly the same arguments to "natural" design (in this case meaning the complexities of living things to which design arguments a have always been applied, as opposed to river deltas etc to which they have not, historically) is a merely a statement of personal prejudice, and not an argument. If human deliberation is invisible to his theory, he's hardly going to see an invisible designer, but has nothing to say that will exclude one.Jon Garvey
January 27, 2013
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And if that’s true, then the IDM’s claim, as demonstrated by Dembski, Behe, Meyer, Nelson, Wells, et al. that ID theory *cannot* in principle study ‘designers/Designers’ is simply false.
I'd like to see the quotes that indicate this. Whether or not anyone in any field that would be associated with examining different aspects of the capacity of humans to intelligently designe "would have anything to do with" "the IDM", as you put it, or intelligent design theory in general, is irrelevant. ID is a seriously controversial and divisive political and ideological hot potato, where people can risk careers simply by supporting it. Where SETI is obviously and patently trying to detect intelligently designed signals, they rejected that idea and tried to deny it when someone in the design community brought it up. The major ID proponents have used forensics, cryptography, SETI, the movie "Contact", machines, mousetraps, factories, 747s, search programs/algorithms, binary code, language, etc. as examples of their particular ID theoretical meethodology. Those are all human-made and examples of human ID, extrapolated via an attempt to formulate a rigorous method. That anthropologists, or cryptographers, or SETI, or forensic investigators either do not consider what they are doing to be ID detection, or wouldn't have anything to do with ID, is irrelevant. Most of the well-known ID authors have pointed to those very things as examples of ID detection in action. I don't really understand where you think irreducible complexity, FSCI/O, explanatory filter, etc. comes from other than by examining human ID artifacts and drawing up general and rigorous methods of differentiating those things from nature. Whether or not Behe, Dembski, Meyer, et al are good at or qualified to make quantifiable distinctions between what human ID produces (in some cases) and what nature produces is irrelevant to whether or not it is a sound principle for scientific investigation. However, all of that is really beside the point; you're not arguing against me or my points in the OP; you're apparently treating me as if I'm the surrogate for some other argument that may or may not have been intended by other ID proponents. I also don't understand why you insist on framing your argument in terms of what Meyer, Behe, et al have said, or have not said; or in terms of how controversial ID is, or how many other fields "would have anything to do with" ID. What differnence does any of that make to the soundness of my argument in the O.P.? Even if you are making the counter-claim to my OP's point (that human to non-human ID detection is a scientifically valid proposal), nothing you write here about who has done what, how good they are at it, what their motives are, what their beliefs are, what their credentials are, what they have said or how different aspects of the issue are classified makes any difference whatsoever. Either detecting non-human ID product (based on examining human ID product) is, in principle, a scientifically valid enterprise (whether or not anyone at present has a means to do so), or it is not. I've made a case based on principle, using obvious examples, extrapolated via a hypothetical alien "artifact" scenario that not only is it a valid scientific enterprise, but also potentially a practical one, and I've made the case that it is ideological intransigence that attempts to stymie acceptance of this basic concept as scientific. This is my argument - not Behe's or Dembski's or Meyer's. Whether or not I have the credentials or ability to do the science myself, or whether anyone else is willing, or whether or not any papers have been published on the topic is, again, irrelevant to my argument here. Unless it is your position that ID is simply unavailable to scientific quantification, or that there is some principle that disallows us from scientifically recognizing it in non-human alien objects, or some reason why human ID to non-human ID cannot be a valid extrapolation, then I don't see you supplying anything here that actually has to do with the O.P. (which you are apparently treating as if it is a surrogate post of other ID proponents about some larger political/philosphical/religious views.) You have apparently assumed that I'm making an argument that I am not making. You've imposed an framework here that has nothing whatsoever to do with my argument about ID as I intended it. Perhaps when some people simply write the letters "ID" or "id", to you, that necessarily indicates all of the stuff you've been inserting into this thread; but your inference is mistaken. Perhaps if you read the O.P. again, as if I'm not the surrogate of some ID movement continuing someone else's arguement, you can get a better idea of the argument I've actually presented here.William J Murray
January 27, 2013
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Particularly great points in 345, Joe. '1- It should be noted that the “natural scientists” acnnot support their own claims- so their rejection of Big ID means NOTHING as the way to the Big ID infernece is through theor lame position. Heck they can’t even produce a testable hypothesis for their materialistic position. They have absolutely nothing. 2- What is small id? 3- Is there a theory of archaeology? 4- Is there a theory of forensic science?' I see he's rabbiting on about Abraham again. Is no-one sacred?Axel
January 27, 2013
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“There simply is no Big-ID theory of human-made things!” Not a single soul has commented about it in this thread – that should tell you something.
Semiosis. #119, #171, #204Upright BiPed
January 27, 2013
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Gregory:
All you are saying about Big ID theory, if that is the case, is that it is an EXTENSION of (the vocabulary of) ‘human ID’ (which, as I have stated above, is simply jargon) to non-human-made things. That is not a valid ‘methodology;’ it leaps a gap of communicative faith.
What complete CRAP- Cause and effect relationships, Gregory. By understanding what humans and other organisms can do within nature it adds to our knowledge of cause and effect relationships. So when we observe something that nature, operating freely could not have produced and we know there weren't any humans around to do it, we do NOT then say that nature did it. We infer some agency other than a human did. Nature doesn't miraculously get designing powers just because humans were not around. IOW Gregory, I would never let you lead an investigation- not if I am around anyway.Joe
January 27, 2013
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Gregory:
‘Big-ID’ theory refers to the Discovery Institute’s approach, as the institution at the heart of an American social-political-educational-religious-cultural movement, which promotes the idea that ‘design/Design’ can be (and even has been!) proven ‘in nature’ by natural scientific methods. This claim is promoted by the ‘intelligent design/Intelligent Design’ movement (IDM, or Big-ID community), though most natural scientists, including both theists and non-theists, have rejected Big-ID theory as unscientific. Here one has to use both not-capitalized and capitalized forms of id/ID for the sake of clarity in communication because the IDM uses both variants whenever they believe it suits them.
1- It should be noted that the "natural scientists" acnnot support their own claims- so their rejection of Big ID means NOTHING as the way to the Big ID infernece is through theor lame position. Heck they can't even produce a testable hypothesis for their materialistic position. They have absolutely nothing. 2- What is small id? 3- Is there a theory of archaeology? 4- Is there a theory of forensic science?Joe
January 27, 2013
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F/N: It is evident that G has not seriously interacted with the way that we seek to explain traces from the past by accounting for causes of similar effects through investigating currently observable phenomena and identifying reliable, observable signs that are parallel, leading to inferences to best explanation. This has been pointed out many times, but the triumphalistic remarks we again see show us that G has not seriously interacted with the question how can we make a scientific reconstruction of a past we did not see and have no records of that are generally recognised. Where, in the case of phenomena such as digital code string data structures in DNA that work algorithmically, the accessible comparisons are cases of digital string data structures that are functionally specific, which turn out to be designed by skilled, knowledgeable programmers. And where, per the needle in the haystack or monkeys at keyboards exercise, we know that blind chance and mechanical necessity would be maximally unlikely to hit on functional configs within the atomic resources and time credibly available. Sad, really. Later, really got to go now. KFkairosfocus
January 27, 2013
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OOPS: contrast and earlier ambiguity was meant. KFkairosfocus
January 27, 2013
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F/N: Just to pick one point, the comparison of a lung with a river delta, our own MH has commented:
what about the differences between river deltas and lungs? River deltas form due to the deposition of sediment. The sedimentation is what causes the delta to form by either diverting the original flow or by the formation of new channels during flooding. Over time, the delta grows larger and can eventually completely relocate, as the Mississippi delta has done several times throughout its history. But it must be noted that the branching associated with a river delta is simply the result of the sediment losing energy, falling out of the flow and building up to the point that the river is forced to branch. This is due to pure physicality, and is contingent on whether or not the sediment blocks the flow. All that is required for there to be a river is water + gravity + any landscape. And even if the river becomes completely blocked, it still ‘flows up’ until it finds a spot to flow back down again. The river is going to flow so long as there is a constant infeed of water, with or without the sediment. If a delta does form, it is true that the delta morphs over time, but so what? The sediment is not part of the flow per se; it only either travels with the flow, or redirects the flow after it has been deposited. Further, the fact that there is a flow at all is not dependant on the sediment. The formation of the delta is simply the work performed by the flow. The channels are carved and the sediments are picked up and deposited by the flow. The river will flow whether it carves out channels or not, and if it does carve channels, it will flow whether the channels morph or not. And if the flow stops (or ‘dies’), it is because the water was turned off, which has nothing to do with anything other than the water having been turned off. Now what about lungs? Lung formation is highly conserved, in that the branching of both the air passages and the blood passages are the same for all individuals, at least up to a point. This includes number of branches, length of the branches, angle of branching, etc. I am not a doctor, so I don’t know to what degree this branching is conserved (i.e. when does the branching become unique for each person, if ever), but even if the number of clusters of alveoli is not conserved, the lung must still maintain a certain shape, for the size, shape and number of lobes are conserved as well. River deltas are not like this, for they are formed by the random deposition of silt, hence their random branching and shifting. Lung formation is algorithmic, following a set of rules (e.g. grow until this long, then divide in two at these angles, grow until this long, then divide in two at these angles, do until this length or volume is achieved, terminate with alveoli). Lung growth is algorithmic, not random like the formation of river deltas. After the lung structures have been formed, the flow of the fluids can then ensue. But it must be noted that the fluid flow begins only after the passages (i.e. channels: bronchi, arteries, etc.), are already formed. The passage formation is independent and prior to the fluid flow through the passages or channels. Rivers form the channels in which the rivers flow, and the river basin or delta forms subsequent to the flow of water; but because the lungs form before the flow of air and blood even begins, something else entirely other than said flow has obviously caused the growth and development of the lungs. So with the lungs we actually have two distinct flows. The first is a flow of materials during the process of lung development, in that the air and blood passages must be manufactured, and are built on and bifurcate from the previously built bronchi and arteries. But it is only after these passage ways have been constructed that the secondary flow of air and blood can happen at all. The first flow of materials is controlled by a set of instructions, and the second flow of fluids is controlled and directed by the structures built by the first flow. Rivers and river deltas are not like this at all. In light of this, it should be painfully obvious that Bejan has completely ignored the ways in which these structures are built, which are so fundamentally disparate that I don’t understand why he conflates the two, other than in an effort to sell his constructal theory to the uninitiated.
We see the same issue again of the contract between nature acting freely and design, real design. All right, gotta go now. KFkairosfocus
January 27, 2013
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(cont’d) “They use the at-hand example – human ID – to generate their proposed evaluatory methodologies for making cases about potential non-human ID.” – W.J. Murray All you are saying about Big ID theory, if that is the case, is that it is an EXTENSION of (the vocabulary of) ‘human ID’ (which, as I have stated above, is simply jargon) to non-human-made things. That is not a valid ‘methodology;’ it leaps a gap of communicative faith. Origins of Life were unarguably *not* 'human-made'! You couldn’t get that fantastic claim published in a peer-reviewed journal of serious scholars in your lifetime. People simply wouldn’t (and shouldn't) believe it. If there were a ‘human ID’ expert among Big-ID leadership, who would it be? Johnson, Dembski, Behe, Meyer, Nelson, Wells – none of these folks qualify. None of them has dedicated their lives to the study of human-made things. Sorry if the facts don’t support your current perspective. I’m just following the evidence where it leads. That takes us to flip-flopping ‘Timaeus,’ who wrote: “On the question of the study of “design” and “designed things” in human affairs, I have absolutely nothing against research on the subject by sociologists, anthropologists, and others. It is perfectly appropriate to study human “designing,” as it is appropriate to study human music-making and war-making and all human things.” This ‘absolutely nothing against’ drivel from Timaeus is rhetorical lip-service with nothing substantial behind it. If “sociologists, anthropologists, and others” *were* to study ‘design’ and ‘designed things’ then they almost surely wouldn’t call it small-id ‘intelligent design’ theory or wish to be associated with the IDM. Regardless of that, Timaeus is simply not qualified in those realms and would be attempting to trick everyone here if he pretended to speak for human-social scientists (who is he supposedly ‘not against,’ but is certainly not ‘for,' based on his 'calm' hostilities!). This is something that you folks may finally wish to come to terms with because it is a reality of the current intellectual landscape (as much as you may personally hate intellectuals for it!). Timaeus has argued with me here in the past that Big-ID theory – iow, what he personally means by ‘ID’ theory speaking from the margins – is focussed on OoL, OoBI and more recently ‘human origins,’ and that it has *nothing* to do with human-made things. He has attempted to mock me for it here, depending for support on the ‘ID community’ to reject any and all anti-IDists, regardless if it means they have to give up on critical thought in the process and to just speak dogmatically, masquerading as 'ID/idists'. But not a single person in the IDM has provided a positive or quantifiable Big-ID theory of human-made things, iow of small-id theory, which likewise is supported by orthodox Abrahamic believers. That’s just a fact. So what choice do you really have other than to emotionally reject my reasonable non-ID observation and hope that someone will come along to deliver Big-ID from obscurity and intellectual expulsion into scholarly legitimacy? You have no choice. Viva la Big-ID revolucion! Gregory p.s. if ‘Axel’ wishes to avoid basic internet etiquette and keeps referring to me by any other name than what is listed at the top of my posts, then I reserve the right to call him something other than what is listed for him or request that he be moderated. He is not chummy with me, I don’t know him, don’t respect his views on the topic of our conversation and he has received no agreement from me to shorten my name. Thanks for your courtesy, UD. p.p.s. if Jon Garvey, Timaeus or others wish to take up Bejan’s ‘design in nature’ position, with which, like them, I also disagree, they are welcome to start a thread here about it at UD. It is long (a least a year or more) overdue! p.p.s. no more time on my schedule to respond to this thread today, (from very cold here) happy Sunday!Gregory
January 27, 2013
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Finally an attempt to answer the main question re: small-id vs. Big-ID!! Thanks to William J. Murray, even though this only serves to blow a hole in the OP’s ‘simple argument’ position. “all theories of intelligent design, such as irreducible complexity, FSCO/I, Dembski’s examination of search algorithms with and without an “oracle”, are all necessarily about human intelligent design first” – W.J. Murray Allx2?!? That’s a provocative claim. Let’s reason together and see if it holds up under scrutiny. First, not a single DI fellow is an anthropologist, sociologist or psychologist, the three main fields that study ‘human intelligence.’ Why do you think that is, W.J. Murray and UD folks? Again, that’s just a fact, following the evidence where it leads. Don’t try to unfairly penalise me for it. And please don’t anyone try to call Dembski a psychologist because he holds a bachelor degree in psychology! Anthropology, sociology and psychology are among the ‘human-social sciences’ what biology, chemistry and physics are among the so-called ‘natural-physical sciences.’ That is, do any of you actually hold to Kuhn’s ‘revolutions’ interpretation of the scholarly disciplines? These are quite difference categories of subjects that are studied in natural-physical and human-social sciences. But you might wish to reject this and to purposefully conflate fundamentally unlike things, e.g. under the banner of ‘historical sciences.’ For merely making this observation, I’ve received derogative, community bullying and simply small-minded inadequate responses here at UD for saying the truth, i.e. that Big-ID is a ‘theory/hypothesis’ focussed on OoL, OoBI and (in more recent times) ‘human origins,’ and that “There simply is no Big-ID theory of human-made things!” Not a single soul has commented about it in this thread – that should tell you something. Now, granting W.J. Murray the benefit of the doubt, i.e. his contention that “all theories of [small-id] intelligent design…are all necessarily about human intelligent design first” (which I frankly doubt is possible to even know if one hasn’t interviewed a few thousand people to discover their widely varying ‘big tent’ views of ‘ID,’ which I’m assuming W.J. Murray hasn’t done) then doesn’t this show beyond a shadow of a doubt that “theories of [small-id] intelligent design” actually *CAN* study purported ‘designers’? Iow, we know we can study human beings as small-d ‘designers.’ So why doesn’t the IDM dedicate the lion’s share of its resources to studying ‘designing’ processes by known designers in the present (and future) tense? Folks, it doesn’t take a rocket scientist, brain surgeon or cognitive studies/philosophy of mind major to recognise that human beings can be studied in their/our ‘design processes.’ And if that’s true, then the IDM’s claim, as demonstrated by Dembski, Behe, Meyer, Nelson, Wells, et al. that ID theory *cannot* in principle study ‘designers/Designers’ is simply false. Second, regarding “how to properly differentiate the obvious cases of human ID from what we can expect to see in the natural world,” why then aren’t extensive case studies of human beings ‘designing’ included in Big-ID literature? Why don’t Big-ID leaders attend small-id conferences and discourse with non-Big-ID ‘design theorists?’ I’ll tell you why: because small-id theorists, i.e. the *real* design theorists, predominantly (with experience from several hundreds during my presentation at a small-id major international event) don’t want anything to do with the ideological and political movement of Big-ID that is quite obviously focussed on OoL, OoBI, (neo-)Darwinism, and plainly *not* on human-made things. Again, Big-ID theory as it is currently framed is a disanthropic theory extraordinaire! This is why my very specific ‘anthropic’ challenge to the IDM is so hard for Big-ID people to swallow or explain. Not only do I support the distinction that esteemed scholar and Christian astronomer Owen Gingerich, along with leaders of the ASA have made, but I go further than that. I use studies of humanity, iow, I include the study of human beings making things to show that Big-ID theory, according to its leaders, is simply is not interested in and (perhaps more clearly to those who would argue they are interested) not personally involved in those actual fields of study. This is simply a fact of history according to what fields the IDM investigates and includes in its writings. As Americans tend to understand, “resistance is futile.” (cont'd)Gregory
January 27, 2013
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JG: You are onto something. Bejan is looking at flow patterns -- not designs [his usage of "design" is a bit loose] -- to/from points and "areas." For such flows, a branching tree structure as a flow network is a reasonable pattern to emerge in light of stochastic laws and patterns of access to/resistance to forming a stream. (Remember, if we canalise a river in a concrete channel, it will no more branch out or form oxbows etc, as its flow has been confined by the resistant concrete. and obviously, such a flow pattern is also very possible.) In terms of life forms, of course we see branching patterns in things like blood vessels and lungs. That is a valid use of the principle. What is not valid, would be to then, say -- and I am here addressing a way this stuff can be read with the eye of Darwiniast faith once a tree pattern is spotted (not any particular individual) -- look at a tree of life diagram and imagine that since this shows a branching tree structure and we have a principle that says that flows tend to branch, we have explained the spreading out of life forms into branched complex forms. First, because we have not actually observed such a tree pattern of gradualistic incremental flow and branching from a source to branches and twigs. It is notorious that the actual observed fossil pattern is one of sudden appearances, stasis, disappearance and/or continuity to today's world. A field of grass or bushes, not a tree. The Cambrian case is iconic. Next, we know of a major "flow" constraint that is liable to canalise or outright block a flow of major forms. Namely, the need to provide body plan level genomic (and epigenomic) information and resulting functional organisation. Where, body plans require something like 10 - 100 mn bits of incremental info. In a context where the 10^57 atoms of our solar system are swamped by the search challenge posed by just 500 bits. Without a credible, empirically grounded account of the rise of such increments in info and organisation, we are again looking at just so stories and loose analogies of the sort where Darwin drew a parallel from animal breeding [dominated by Mendelian type inheritance and hard limits] to his hoped for natural selection that would give rise to unlimited variation. similarly, the use of the term evolution is loose and invites all sorts of sloppy analogies and equivocations. And your pointing to the cosmological fine-tuning implications of actually discovering laws of physics with life written into them, is also valid. Now, let us take up a real world case, a paper by Bejan and Lorente, with abstract:
Constructal theory is the view that (i) the generation of images of design (pattern, rhythm) in nature is a phenomenon of physics and (ii) this phenomenon is covered by a principle (the constructal law): ‘for a finite-size flow system to persist in time (to live) it must evolve such that it provides greater and greater access to the currents that flow through it’. This law is about the necessity of design to occur, and about the time direction of the phenomenon: the tape of the design evolution ‘movie’ runs such that existing configurations are replaced by globally easier flowing configurations. The constructal law has two useful sides: the prediction of natural phenomena and the strategic engineering of novel architectures, based on the constructal law, i.e. not by mimicking nature. We show that the emergence of scaling laws in inanimate (geophysical) flow systems is the same phenomenon as the emergence of allometric laws in animate (biological) flow systems. Examples are lung design, animal locomotion, vegetation, river basins, turbulent flow structure, self-lubrication and natural multi-scale porous media. This article outlines the place of the constructal law as a self-standing law in physics, which covers all the ad hoc (and contradictory) statements of optimality such as minimum entropy generation, maximum entropy generation, minimum flow resistance, maximum flow resistance, minimum time, minimum weight, uniform maximum stresses and characteristic organ sizes. Nature is configured to flow and move as a conglomerate of ‘engine and brake’ designs.
Notice what is happening? Yup, this is an attempt to reduce design to an appearance driven by laws of necessity. What is conspicuously missing? An account of the origin of bio-info that bridges the body plan origin gap, starting from the first, OOL. And then by begging the root of the tree of life question, the problem is made to look like hey, we have an answer to why the tree branching pattern of life forms is as it is and converges on certain often appearing patterns: flow physics. Nothing to account for the actual stasis and gaps pattern, or for the need to write complex genetic and regulatory algorithms to account for the forms. See the "no see-um" problem that REAL design is addressing? KF PS: Here is the brief exchange that came up at UD last July.kairosfocus
January 27, 2013
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"For a finite-size system to persist in time (to live), it must evolve in such a way that it provides easier access to the imposed currents that flow through it." Bejam Constructal Law 1996.
The immediate red flag here is that first conditional clause "For a finite system to persist in time..." There ought, of course, be an underlying law of physics that things must persist in time, or otherwise Bejam's law would be better stated, "If a system has persisted in time, then it will have evolved... etc". That explains nothing more in terms of causation than the statement "For a thing not to cool down, it must remain hot." We can, however, test the law using a known example - say a battleship. This is valid since "Because human beings are not separate from but a part of nature, their designs are also governed by the constructal law" (Bejam et al 2007). Let's assume the truth of the "imposed currents flowing through" such a system, though they have been criticised as imprecise by some. Then we may ask what happens if there are two exemplary environmental changes: (a) Fuel grade oil becomes unavailable and (b) shell manufacturers change from imperial to metric measures. Let's suppose that the crew try using the only available fuel, wood. Either the engines will fail, or perhaps the system will suffer catastrophic failure and explode. We also find that the metric shells are marginally bigger than the previous 15" shells, and jam in the breech, again causing either failure of catastrophe. In either case, the ship will sink and cease to be a battleship, or at best rust away on the quayside. The sea-floor is littered with examples of such failure to evolve, so we can conclude that there is no underlying physical law of survival. What, then, does it take to keep the ship "alive" in Bejam's terms? Clearly, modifications to the burners, and reaming out of the gun-barrels. The "currents" of wood (= energy source) and shells will then continue to flow, and the battleship will have "evolved" to survive as a battleship. Now there is clearly one thing missing from this account - the appearance of intelligent design by the ship's architects who assess and institute the modifications. But if Bejam's Constructal Law is actually a fundamental law of physics, as he claims, and applies to humans as well as nature, then the interposition of human intelligent design is an unnecessary multiplication of entities. Arguably it should be excluded by Occam's razor. The battleship evolved because of fundamental physics, not because of some epiphenomenal thing called design. Now clearly, this is equally applicable to nature, and of course particularly to life. We have seen there is apparent design (Bejam's use of "design" without qualification is a little misleading here) in the battleship's evolution, yet without a designer if we accept the truth of Bejam's Law. So why should the same thing not apply to nature, rendering an "intelligent designer" completely superfluous? In this way we have accomplished a universal theory of design without designers. Even so, the reason why Constructal Law is valid in the first place would then have to be explained by reference to fine-tuning, but that's a completely different issue of course.Jon Garvey
January 27, 2013
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Folks: Here is where we see the loading that renders the whole taxonomy tendentious and question-begging, and exercise in rhetoric not reasonable minded objective inquiry:
G, 327: ‘Big-ID’ theory refers to the Discovery Institute’s approach, as the institution at the heart of an American social-political-educational-religious-cultural movement, which promotes the idea that ‘design/Design’ can be (and even has been!) proven ‘in nature’ by natural scientific methods . . .
1 --> We are left to two options, neither of which properly fits, and the one that targets Intelligent Design, reflects the "creationism in a cheap tuxedo" false narrative. 2 --> We are then presented with an assertion that is false, a claim of "proof." This sets up a strawman. 3 --> In first correction, Science, of course as an empirical evidence led investigatory and exploratory discipline is inherently incapable of proof [showing something to be so beyond logical doubt, by deduction from generally accepted premises similar to exercises in mathematics], but operates by inductive inference and warrant, in the general context of wider induction that embraces inference to best current and progressive, open-ended explanation. 4 --> Hence, the phenomenon of repeated scientific revolutions, my home discipline, physics, having had two major revolutions in 300 or so years: the one culminating in the Newtonian synthesis, across the 1600's, and the one culminating in the quantum-relativity pattern of thought that dominates to this day. 5 --> Intelligent Design, as a scientific movement [the only form that I have any real interest in as a scientist in my own right], is led by that frame of thought, and is a small but significant research programme pivoting on the issue that we do observe distinct characteristics that trace to different kinds of causal factors. 6 --> In particular, it is observed that in a great many cases of known designs, we see that contrivance is reflected in functionally specific organisation and related information, which may be explicit or implicit. (This is not so in all cases, but it is so in cases that are relevant to the project of detecting design by characteristic signs.) 7 --> On closer inspection, we see that mechanical necessity by contrast produces a pattern of natural regularity with low contingency. That is, under similar initial conditions, predictably, there is a general course of the world in which similar outcomes occur, i.e low contingency natural regularities, expressible in inferred laws of nature such as F = m*a or E = m*c^2, or sin i:sin r = const, etc etc. 8 --> These are to be distinguished in general from the sort of necessary constraints such as 3 + 2 = 5, which must be so in any possible world. That is, at another level, we must be open to the possibility that the particular laws we see may have been different. 9 --> By similar contrast, we see that chance processes produce stochastic patterns that may be modelled on a probability distribution, such as the Gaussian, the Poisson, the Weibull, etc. 10 --> This naturally leads to an inferential filter, intended to identify cases and aspects of objects, phenomena etc that trace to the action of these factors. 11 --> From this, we see that, per inductive investigation on billions of test cases, specified complexity, especially as manifested in function dependent on specific organisation of parts [which may in certain cases reflect irreducible complexity . . . removal or breakdown of any one of a cluster of core parts is sufficient to trigger loss of function], is a reliable sign of design as cause. Where, we can independently directly observe cause or have generally accepted reliable record. 12 --> We also further see that design is not traceable to or locked down to humanness. 13 --> That is, in many cases being human is not sufficient, one must have relevant knowledge, skills and resources as well as motivation and opportunity etc. In other cases, such as beavers, we see designs that trace to agents that are not human, albeit in a limited context. (This leads to the onward issue of a secondary designer, i.e. can something or someone be designed and built with the capacity to design? Hence, R Daneel Olivaw and co, ultimately, if that is so. BTW, arguably, we too are secondary designers.) 14 --> With this set of results in hand, we can then look at naturally occurring cases of FSCO/I, such as the world of life. We see here, reproducing forms based on self-replicating cells driven by metabolic automata coupled to von Neumann kinematic self replicators based on stored digital -- discrete state -- code and associated step by step procedures, i.e. algorithms. Where, digital code is an observable manifestation of language, and algorithms, of functional organisation working by sequenced action towards an end state of the sequence of actions. 15 --> Each of these is a strong sign of design. And indeed, we see that OOL is plainly challenged to provide an empirically well-grounded explanation of the origin of such phenomena from a chemical stew in a pond or the like per relevant thermodynamics and reaction kinetics, etc. 16 --> Indeed, we see in the living cell, and traceable to the earliest forms of cell based life, not only codes and algorithms but execution machines based on integrated, interacting molecular nanotechnology of astonishing sophistication. 17 --> Things that themselves manifest thermodynamic counter-flow [note eh date and the series], and are used in further counter-flow to make the cell work against the strong trend of unconstrained nature -- nature working freely -- to go downhill energetically. 18 --> In short the evidence before our eyes is that we are looking at a world of sophisticated nanotechnology that we are only just beginning to explore. Which points already to the strong candidate to explain such: design. 19 --> Where also, we distinguish evidence that on inference to best explanation leads to the warranted (but revisable on further observed evidence) scientific conclusion of design, from the further question, what or who is/are the relevant designers. 20 --> At this point, we see the pivotal gap in the tendentious definition offered to us above. For, the key point is that the objective evidence implicates design as process, as opposed to identifying any particular designer as specific involved agent. As I have said quite often, on the strength of progress in molecular nanotech to date, in principle, a lab some generations beyond Venter et al could do what we see. Minor scale intelligent design of life forms is an existing fact and in principle, within 100 years, we probably could do the job from scratch, with sufficient funding. 21 --> The relevance of this -- here, I point to vistas of science opening up on the emerging paradigm of design -- is that this could transform development and industry, also empowering solar system colonisation. 22 --> Specifically, we already see efforts to encapsulate a modular Industrial Civ 2.0, per Jakubowski et al and their concept of a global village construction set. Multiply this by the actual creation of a kinematic self replicator and associated general constructor, and we see a way to transform manufacturing and to modularise it based on a stored information DNA package. Mix in sustainable energy sources based on fusion etc, and off we go. If the Bussard drive based on a proposed fusion reactor works out, we are looking at getting to Titan in 74 days. Asteroid belt and heavy mineral asteroids, here we come. 23 --> I bring this to bear, so that we can get a feel for what can be opened up based on what we are looking at. We need to break out of the dead end polarised debates of our day and the linked zero sum or negative sum [win-lose easily becomes lose-lose] power games. 24 --> Next, let us pause at cosmological design inferences, These are based on fine tuning that sets our world up at an isolated operating point in the conceptual space of possible physics. That has led to a cosmos in which we have terrestrial planets, with the first four elements being H, He, C, and O. With N close by. Our cosmos is set up for C-chemistry, cell based aqueous medium life in so many subtle and finely balanced ways that it has led to the issue raised by Hoyle et al: physics has apparently been monkeyed with to get us here. 25 --> That is, we are here looking -- even through a multiverse speculative model -- at an inference to a cosmos level designer, one that evidently set up a cosmos in which life like we enjoy has been made possible. Such a designer would be deeply knowledgable and intelligent, skilled and powerful beyond our imaginations. 26 --> Multiply by a philosophical point, that our contingent cosmos calls for a root in a necessary being (as is discussed above in this thread and elsewhere), one that -- having no external dependence on on/off enabling factors, would be eternal, i.e would exist without beginning or end in any possible world. That is similar to how the truth in 3 + 2 = 5 has no beginning, will not have an end and will hold in any possible world. 27 --> At a worldviews level, as opposed to a scientific one, we can then see that there is reason to believe that recent reports presented in the name of science that God is out of a job, are premature. And, that the level of investigation where that comes from is worldview level reflection on the roots of the observed cosmos in light of scientific evidence pointing to fine tuning, not specifically those on the world of life. 28 --> The inference to design on FSCO/I in the world of life is compatible with that, but it is not directly linked to it. For reasons already outlined, and in fact as have been frankly laid on the table since the days of Thaxton et al in the mid 1980's. 29 --> But that is not rhetorically convenient to those who have an agenda to promote a false narrative of intentions of scientists engaging in intelligent design research, in practising science. Consequently, a false but rhetorically convenient narrative has been cooked up and widely disseminated by people who should know better and should do better. That, demonstrably, is where the ID is creationism in a cheap tuxedo false narrative has come from, as I recently exposed here and in a linked series of specific posts. 30 --> G's proffered definition as excerpted reflects that false narrative as corrected and so is unacceptable, being tendentious and loaded, implying false accusations. 31 --> This has already been specifically pointed out to G, but has been ignored by him. He needs to rise up to the general duties of care of scholarship to truth and fairness, and correct his assertions and insinuations. KFkairosfocus
January 26, 2013
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To All: I looked up Gregory's links to Bejan. Bejan's idea of a "constructal law" is interesting in its own right, and I have nothing against it as a conception to be applied to understanding various features of the world. I particularly appreciate Bejan's swipe against "chaos theory" -- he sees law, not chance, as the explanation for what happens, and of course in that respect he would find some agreement from ID people. Bejan appears, however, to make the same mistake that so many bright persons with bright ideas make: he thinks that because he has discovered a principle that explains *many* things, he has discovered *the* principle that explains *everything*. That *some* biological phenomena can be explained in terms of physical principles such as the "constructal law" is not at all an unreasonable or improbable assertion, and if Bejan can make it stick, more power to him. But *all* biological phenomena? Including evolution? A "constructal law" alone is all we need to get from molecules to man? Nothing else? Bejan has three degrees in mechanical engineering from MIT. Not a single degree in biology. He is not likely to be conversant at a graduate level with the literature of genetics, developmental biology, molecular biology, etc. He does not, in all probability, know the details of anatomy and physiology in plants and animals. He is not, presumably, trained to discuss either the detailed workings of living things today or their evolutionary origins. So how can he possibly know that the "constructal law" can explain the entire process of evolution? It has been argued by many ID proponents -- including Steve Meyer, Gregory's latest hero within the ID movement -- that natural laws alone -- including any "constructal law" which may exist -- are not sufficient, either in practice or in principle, to explain the *informational* aspects of life. For evolution to work, there has to be a way to impart informational properties to non-living matter, and, so goes the argument, this can't be done by natural laws alone. Informational structures must come from a designing mind -- something that Bejan appears (from the interviews) to believe has no role in explaining the world. Meyer takes this up the absolute requirement for information input in *Signature in the Cell*, a book which Gregory, last time he was asked, had not read, and indicated that he had no intention of reading. This point is important within ID, since Michael Denton, an ID proponent, is big on the role of natural laws as the explanation for evolution (as elaborated in *Nature's Destiny*, another book which Gregory, when last asked about it, appeared not to have read), whereas Dembski, Meyer, Nelson, and Wells do not think that natural laws are anywhere near sufficient. The critique which Dembski, Meyer, etc. have made of Denton, they would doubtless make of Bejan. Now I'm not rendering a final verdict here, as I haven't read Bejan. But based on his biography, which indicates no training in the life sciences, and based what he argues in the interviews, it seems that he has not explained how a "constructal law" could have imparted the genetic code -- the prerequisite of evolution and of life itself -- to molecular matter. Or how it could account for something like the Cambrian Explosion. If I am wrong, if he has explained these things, then I am sure that Gregory will point me to the exact pages in his writings where he has made the argument. I would certainly be willing to read any book that makes such an argument, as long as it does not, in the Darwinian style, avoid all the messy biological details and speak in grand story-telling terms. Again, I am not denying that a constructal law could explain a great deal about life, and I am not denying that a constructal law could explain a good number of things about evolution. I suspect that it would not explain everything about evolution. But if it can, the onus is on Bejan and his disciples to show how.Timaeus
January 26, 2013
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I only wonder if that's our own Gregory's namesake. :)Mung
January 26, 2013
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Mung (333): An amusing find, in the current context! Definitely worth a smile. Speaking of Paley, I wonder if *our* Gregory has actually read any of Paley's *Natural Theology*. (Five to one he's read none of it; a hundred to one he hasn't read it all the way through.) I'm reading it now. It's brilliantly and carefully argued, and not only does it anticipate the general form of today's ID arguments, it also anticipates the general form of virtually every argument *against* design that I've seen from contemporary atheists and TEs. Thinkers of 200 years ago were very thorough and careful. I would guess that Gregory could learn a lot more from reading Paley than from reading Bejan (if Bejan's general powers of reasoning are typified by his claim that one can have design without a designer -- a claim anticipated and duly rejected by Paley). Oh, and thanks for the kind word in 318.Timaeus
January 26, 2013
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Gregory presents a design argument that rivals William Paley's. Only his is based not on a mechanical device - in Paley's case the watch - but on a musical instrument - for Gregory the lute. Thus Gregory argues that just as a beautifully made lute leads us to infer both a lutemaker and a luteplayer, so our beautifully made cosmos leads us to infer a God who created it and continues to act creatively within it. - Wm. Dembski
ACK! Where did that come from!?Mung
January 26, 2013
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Gregory, I think that the all theories of intelligent design (meaning, methods of evaluation to determine whether intelligent designs is a necessary component of the "best explanation" of the phenomena in question), such as irreducible complexity, FSCO/I, Dembski's examination of search algorithms with and without an "oracle", are all necessarily about human intelligent design first because that is the example and comparative (in contrast to nature) that guides the formation of all of those methods. So yes, as far as I know, all forms of the ID scientific theory by behe, dembski, meyer, and kf here are first and foremost theories about how to properly differentiate the obvious cases of human ID from what we can expect to see in the natural world. They use the at-hand example - human ID - to generate their proposed evaluatory methodologies for making cases about potential non-human ID.William J Murray
January 26, 2013
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Ask him if he thinks that, if true, it's of trivial consequence. Or does he believe that the scientists concerned are frauds?Axel
January 26, 2013
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'From a communications perspective, Gregory behavior is, to put the matter charitably, disingenuous. Emphasizing symbolism and de-emphasizing substance, he floods cyberspace with long-winded, rambling posts that contain multiple themes, each of which has little to do with the other. One wonders why he even bothers to scatter these unconnected pieces of rhetorical buckshot all over the printed page. Maybe he hopes to escape rational scrutiny by presenting so many topics that the reader finally despairs in his search for a reasoned argument.'- StephenB '310 Stephen, ask Greg to view on YouTube the more recent findings of scientists on the Shroud? And then give his opinion of the claimed event-horizon, absence of gravity, 3D information, peculiar state of blood stains, etc. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_voTiCTqv4Q http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FcKTkjWkqEUAxel
January 26, 2013
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26
26
2013
01:53 PM
1
01
53
PM
PDT
1 2 3 4 5 6 16

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