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A Simple Argument For Intelligent Design

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When I come across a new idea, I like to see if there are any relatively simple and obvious arguments that can be levied for or against it.  When I first came across ID, this is the simple argument I used that validated it – IMO – as a real phenomenon and a valid scientific concept.

Simply put, I know intelligent design exists – humans (at least, if not other animals) employ it.  I use it directly.   I know that intelligent design as humans employ it can (but not always) generate phenomena that are easily discernible as products of intelligent design.  Anyone who argues that a battleship’s combination of directed specificity and/or complexity is not discernible from the complexity found in the materials after an avalanche is either committing intellectual dishonesty or willful self-delusion – even if the avalanche was deliberately caused, and even if the rocks were afterward deliberately rearranged to maintain their haphazard distribution.

Some have argued that we only “recognize” human design, and that such recognition may not translate to the intelligent design of non-human intelligence.  The easy answer to that is that first, we do not always recognize the product of human design. In fact, we often design things to have a natural appearance. That we may not recognize all intelligent design is a given and simply skirts the issue of that which we can recognize.

Second, it is again either delusion or dishonesty to ignore a simple hypothetical exercise: in some cases, were we to find certain kinds of objects/phenomena [edited for clarity] on distant,  uninhabited and otherwise desolate planets, would we be able to infer that such  were most likely specifically designed by intelligent creatures of some sort for some purpose?

Again, the obvious answer to this except in cases of delusion or or dishonesty is “yes”.   Then the question becomes: without a scientifically valid means of making such a determination, how would one be made? Intuition? Common sense? Is the recognizable difference between such artifacts and those that appear to be natural not a quantifiable commodity? If not, how do we go about making the case that something we find on such a planet is not a naturally-occurring phenomena, especially in cases that are not so obvious?  There must be some scientifically-acceptable means of making such a determination – after all, resources committed to research depend upon a proper categorical determination; it would quite wasteful attempting to explain a derelict alien spacecraft in terms of natural processes – time and money better spent trying to reverse engineer the design for practical use and attempting to discern the purpose of its features.

Thus, after we make the determination that said object/phenomenon is the product of intelligent design, our investigatory heuristic is different from what it would be were we to assume the artifact is not intelligently designed.  A scientific, categorical distinction is obviously important in future research.

The idea that there is no discernible or quantifiable difference between some products of ID and what nature produces without it, or that such a determination is irrelevant, is absurd. One might argue that the method by which ID proponents make the differential evaluation between natural and product of ID (FSCI, dFSCI, Irreducible Complexity, Semiotic System) is incorrect or insufficient, but one can hardly argue such a difference doesn’t exist or is not quantifiable in some way, nor can they argue that it makes no difference to the investigation.  One can hardly argue, IMO, that those attempts to scientifically describe that difference are unreasonable, because they obviously point at least in spirit to that which obviously marks the difference.  IMO, the argument cannot be against ID in spirit, but rather only about the best way to scientifically account for the obvious difference between some cases of ID and otherwise naturally-occurring phenomena, whether or not that “best accounting” indicts some phenomena as “product of design” that many would prefer not to be the case.

The only intellectually honest position is to admit ID exists; that there is some way to describe the differential in a scientific sense to make useful categorical distinctions (as “best explanation”), and then to accept without ideological preference when that differential is used to make such a determination.  If the best explanation for biological life is that it was intelligently designed, then so be it; this should be of no more concern to any true scientist than if a determination is made that some object found on a distant planet was intelligently designed, or if a feature on Mars is best explained as the product of water erosion.  To categorically deny ID as a valid, scientific explanatory category (arrowheads?  geometric patterns found via Google Earth? battleships? crop circles? space shuttle? potential alien artifacts?) is ideological absurdity.

Comments
Are you still rabbiting on about Big ID and small ID, Greg? What's the matter with you?Axel
January 26, 2013
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"I would like to propose a third category, BIG I BIG D INTELLIGENT DESIGN!" - Mung Go ahead then, Mung. By all means do so. Great idea! But if reality of your past exploits at UD is any measure, you'll drop that language at the first opportunity. You won't stick with it, you won't display conviction in your communication because you are not being serious. And because you are not being serious you should not be taken seriously. But hey, if you're being serious, then your BIG I BIG INTELLIGENT DESIGN will stick and is what we'll be reading from you in the future. If you're not being serious, then, well, certainly I won't be taking you seriously. "Yes, Gregory, sometimes people write Intelligent Design and sometimes people write intelligent design." That's exactly what I meant that IDM people waffle between small-id and Big-ID! Thanks for conceding the point.Gregory
January 26, 2013
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W.J. Murray: I write with the goodwill that you will then reciprocate and answer the simple question I asked regarding your thread titled 'simple argument' for small-id 'intelligent design.' By calling it 'small-id intelligent design' I assume that you will simply be willing to admit that you did not capitalise the terms 'Intelligent Design' in your OP. Surely on that we can agree? Otherwise there is no use in dialogue between us. Here is my definition of Big-ID, adapted from the link already provided:
'Big-ID' theory refers to the Discovery Institute's approach, as the institution at the heart of an American social-political-educational-religious-cultural movement, which promotes the idea that ‘design/Design’ can be (and even has been!) proven 'in nature' by natural scientific methods. This claim is promoted by the 'intelligent design/Intelligent Design' movement (IDM, or Big-ID community), though most natural scientists, including both theists and non-theists, have rejected Big-ID theory as unscientific. Here one has to use both not-capitalized and capitalized forms of id/ID for the sake of clarity in communication because the IDM uses both variants whenever they believe it suits them.
I believe the last sentence of this definition has been proven already. Now, here is my question again, directly related to the OP, phrased in *your* language, W.J. Murray, even now that you have also read my preferred language, but so that you can possibly face the question: Simple question – Yes or No: Is there an 'intelligent design' theory of human-made things? If you want it asked in another way, is there a leader of the IDM that proposes an id/ID theory of human-made things? If you think there is, then please point us directly to authors’ names and papers. Journal titles or book titles, publishers are also welcome. If you think there is not, then please simply let your Yes be Yes and your No be No. Thanks, GregoryGregory
January 26, 2013
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Gregory argues for making a distinction between small i small d intelligent design and Big I Big D Intelligent Design. I would like to propose a third category, BIG I BIG D INTELLIGENT DESIGN! So, Gregory, are you going to go back to all previous writings and correct them so that the usage properly conveys the meaning? And if not you, who? Has anyone bothered to point out to you that you're on a fools errand? So you come into a thread and point out to WJM that he wrote Intelligent Design when he should have written intelligent design. Or you write Alvin Plantinga and tell him he used intelligent design when he should have used Intelligent Design. Really? This is your mission in life? That's why, for the most part, you're not being taken seriously here. We're not going to follow "Gregory's rules of capitalization" just because you want us to. The convention clearly exists that one may use capitalization or not, and that little can be inferred from what is meant based solely upon the choice to capitalize or not. A fools errand. I can't even wish you good luck in it.Mung
January 26, 2013
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My question is very simple: do IDM people waffle between Big-ID and small-id in their language usage?
Yes, Gregory, sometimes people write Intelligent Design and sometimes people write intelligent design. So what?
You have no possibility of winning this argument, folks, so please try even harder to escape the inevitable!
What argument?Mung
January 26, 2013
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lastyearon:
I think what Gregory (and other non IDists) are arguing is that there is no categorical distinction between ‘designed’ and ‘not-designed’ things.
So?
How do you program the robot to identify designed objects?
How do we program programs to find and decode coded messages? Think NSA, etc. How does one hide a coded message? Perhaps by trying to make it look non-designed, and designedly so. From "it does not appear to be designed" it does not follow that it is not designed. This is why intelligent design focuses on reliable indicators of design.Mung
January 26, 2013
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“Like any Christian (and indeed any theist), I believe that the world has been created by God, and hence “intelligently designed.” The hallmark of intelligent design, however, is the claim that this can be shown scientifically; I’m dubious about that.” – A. Plantinga
Gregory, I trust you wrote to Dr. Plantinga and informed him of his misuse of small i small d intelligent design. But I will say that I am likewise dubious that an inference to design can get one to God as THE DESIGNER. I mean, take our battleship, for example. Why would we think God designed the battleship? Which design inferences can or should lead to God? That's hardly a scientific question, is it?Mung
January 26, 2013
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Gregory:
Adrian Bejan speaks of small-d ‘design in nature.’ He wrote a book 2012 about it that surely someone could display the courage to review at UD.
First I need the motivation to buy it. I read the blurbs on amazon, I read the reviews. I have read your comments here at UD. I'm still waiting for you to reply to my question. If you are really interested in getting people to read it you might consider responding. My post was #213.Mung
January 26, 2013
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Gregory:
Big-ID proponents should drop the motive-talk ...
Oh, the irony.Mung
January 26, 2013
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H'mm: It is obvious that mangoes [apples -- that was Lincolnshire . . . ] drop from trees, right? And, that the moon goes around the earth reflecting a centripetal force? What do we need to explain the obvious? Simple, the spark of insight that tied the two together under a common causal factor. Fast forward 350 years and ask what is needed to explain the commonalities between a digital data storage tape and DNA? H'mm, what is it that best explains codes and data structures used to hold such in systems? KFkairosfocus
January 26, 2013
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Why do you need a theory to “explain” the obvious?
There you have it in a nutshell. The irrefutable argument for "intelligent design"!Alan Fox
January 26, 2013
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Timaeus:
It would probably be thought of as egocentric for me to compile a “best of Timaeus.”
Then, if you must be humble, compile a "The Worst of Timaeus". Your worst is better than the best of many. :)Mung
January 26, 2013
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Gregory:
Battleships are designed by human beings. As Homer Simpson would say: ‘Duh.’
YES! You finally get it. Living organisms are likewise obviously designed.
Do you call that a ‘scientific theory’?!?!
Which part? The theory of DUH part? Call it Homer Simpson Theory. Why do you need a theory to "explain" the obvious? Why did Darwin feel a need to come up with a theory to "explain" the obvious?Mung
January 26, 2013
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kf: "Let me answer this on the merits by taking the 110 ASCII character snippet just cited as an example of functionally specific, complex organisation and associated information relevant to the Chi_500 analysis." But that requires the premise that Gregory is a man.Mung
January 26, 2013
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Gregory:
My approach is decades ahead of the IDM and you would likely embrace it if you understood it.
Ah, so you have your own research lab now too? Have you offered to make it availabe to the IDM?Mung
January 26, 2013
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StephenB #310, Great job pointing out the inconsistencies and incoherence. Gregory, what is it that you want? Do you want the prodigal sons to return to Mother Church and the ways of small id? Back to arguing that God is the Designer and that science points us to God?Mung
January 26, 2013
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Never in the history of mankind has any people ever found, even suspected a possible need for, a term to designate an 'unintelligently non-designed' (n. unintelligent non-design) object which looks as if it had been designed'. I wonder why that is. I expect they were not sophisticated enough. Or dopey enough. I wonder which.Axel
January 26, 2013
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Gregory asks:
Simple question – Yes or No: Is there a Big-ID (IDM) theory of human-made things?
Even after reading all your posts and following your links, I still do not understand what you mean by "Big-ID". Can you give a definition of it so that I can properly respond?William J Murray
January 26, 2013
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If I may change the topic -- since Gregory is obviously not going to respond to my very clear, non-flip-flopping statement of my beliefs about intelligent design (found in #200) -- I would point out that Gregory is spelling the word "God" oddly these days. Does the spelling "G-d" indicate that he has converted to Orthodox Judaism? It's not a spelling you often see in Christian writers, or even non-Orthodox Jewish writers. Or has he always spelled it that way, with me simply failing to notice?Timaeus
January 26, 2013
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From a communications perspective, Gregory behavior is, to put the matter charitably, disingenuous. Emphasizing symbolism and de-emphasizing substance, he floods cyberspace with long-winded, rambling posts that contain multiple themes, each of which has little to do with the other. One wonders why he even bothers to scatter these unconnected pieces of rhetorical buckshot all over the printed page. Maybe he hopes to escape rational scrutiny by presenting so many topics that the reader finally despairs in his search for a reasoned argument. Indeed, Gregory does not so much argue by logic as by insinuation. His idea of a devastating refutation is to cite a quote from an ID proponent, place it in bold letters, and say, “get a load of that folks.” Apparently, it never occurs to him that we might want to know precisely what it is about the passage that is supposed to scandalize us. At times, it appears that Gregory’s habit of wallowing in empty symbolism really does sour his taste for intellectual substance? I can’t think of any other explanation for his anti-intellectual militancy. It does not take a genius to realize, for example, that an inference to biological design does not, as he claims, constitute “univocal predication” (the claim that human attributes are comparable with God’s attributes). To say that God left design clues in nature is not to say that our intelligence or creative sensibilities are akin to His. We know that Gregory borrowed this error from Ed Feser, but why does he always accept what our enemies say about us without even attempting to evaluate their arguments? Apart from misinterpreting and misrepresenting ID’s paradigms, the embarrassing fact is that Gregory does not even understand his own models and terms. It is a very odd thing that someone can devote his entire life to an idea that he cannot even articulate. Is he the only person alive who believes that one can sell an idea without first explaining it? We are told, for example, that “small id,” which is said to be the counterpoise to “Big ID’s” contemporary design inference, refers to classical theism. We are also told that small id “assumes” a transcendent Creator that designed human in His own image and likeness. Never mind the fact that classical theism includes both faith-based arguments that ASSUME God’s existence AND reason-based arguments that INFER God’s existence. How can small id be a model that admits all of classical theism and also be a model that admits only faith –based arguments? Naturally, this raises the reciprocal question about what Gregory can possibly mean when he uses the term “Big ID.” As a kind of synonym, he has also coined the acronym, IDM, which, one gathers, indicates the social dynamic understood to be the ID “movement.” This includes, the religious, philosophical, historical, and motivational sensibilities of everyone involved at the Discovery Institute as well as all like-minded ID proponents, but it does not—get this—it does not include Big ID’s own definition of itself as a scientific research project. It seems that ID’s self-description doesn’t really count for much since, we are told, it is unconscious of and even dishonest about its true identity. (How it is possible to be dishonest about what is not known is left unexplained). For Gregory, ID can be more accurately defined as an amalgamation of Christian theology, traditional philosophy, and faith-based science grounded in the principle of “imago Dei.” All this talk about an empirically-based methodology is simply a ruse –a kind of public relations scam. That Gregory doesn’t know or even pretend to know anything about scientific methodology is not perceived to be a problem. That he has never taken a science course is of no embarrassing consequence. None of this prevents or even inhibits him from claiming to surpass Steven Meyer as a philosopher of science. Then there is the curious, dare I say, ironic fact that Steve Fuller, whom Gregory claims to follow, has called for ID to gird up its loins and transform itself into the very same kind of institution that Gregory says it already is and will not own up to. Perhaps the final straw, though, consists in the fact that Gregory’s Big ID, which is supposed to militate against and trivialize small id, is, by virtue of its alleged theological/philosophical/historical/scientific construction, really a kind of small id that doesn’t know it is small id, which means that Big ID is also small id and the whole purpose for making the contrast is invalidated. This man lives in an intellectual madhouse. One would think that such a clumsy attempt to start a bold new analytical model would be accompanied with at least a modicum of humility. Not a chance. Gregory reports that ID’s most prominent luminaries cannot defend their theories in his daunting presence and have folded under the pressure of his withering cross examination. As I understand it, he has kept a list of questions that have stumped Bruce Gordon and other ID proponents for years and he says the inventory is growing. Naturally, this claim aroused my curiosity. I thought that it might be fun to take a crack at one of these mind-bending probes. So, I asked Gregory to give me the third degree and provide me with just one of those killer queries. He responded by assuring me that his list was still growing. Acknowledging his response, I pressed the matter again and asked to be presented with just one example. Again, there was no response. It is too much to say that I have doubts about Gregory’s account of his interactions with ID’s heaviest hitters since I and many others on this site have had no difficulty knocking his fastest pitches out of the park? Is it too much to say that when I throw my own fastballs in his direction, he doesn’t even take a swing? Could it be that there might be just a little historical revisionism going on in these self-serving reports? Now, after having failed to engage in rational discourse on multiple occasions. Gregory wants Timaeus (myself also) to drop his pseudo name, change venues, and participate in a recorded debate with him under the auspices of his “neutral” observer. But why should Timaeus pay such a price or go to another place with him when we have Gregory right here? Why should Timaeus go beyond the call of duty when Gregory will not even respond to the call of duty? Why should Timaeus submit to a setting where there is no prospect of an audience when we already have an audience of 10,000 people right here? Would Gregory use such an occasion to report to everyone that he won a debate that he would clearly lose just as he reports to everyone that he stumped the best and brightest ID thinkers when he clearly didn’t? It seems strange that someone so hell bent on selling his ideas and attacking those of his adversaries, cannot summon even a semblance of a rational argument for his own position or respond to even the most basic inquiries about his anti-ID tirades. It’s just one talking point after another. To put the matter as delicately as I know how, Gregory is living a lie. As a young man, he is better off knowing that fact sooner rather than later.StephenB
January 26, 2013
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"“Big-ID” exists only in your mind, Gregory. So no one outside of your mind can say anything about it." Oops, actually they do say things about it. You forgot to add Gingerich, Davis, Murphy, Isaac, Barr, Polkinghorne, not to mention Torley and Wallace, and Timaeus before his waffle diet, et. al.
“You make a good point about the distinction between (capitalized) Intelligent Design, and (lower case) intelligent design. The latter belief does not require that the Designer left any visible, discernible traces of His activity.” - Torley
Goodness, Torley must be almost as idiotic as I am! ;)Gregory
January 26, 2013
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G; the above is sad. I am led to observe that, patently lacking a sound response to what he real design inference actually is, you have descended into outright rudely dsrespectful, personal dismissals and demands -- both to Timaeus and to myself. I will leave you to the onlookers to see what is going on, as I have shown more than sufficient substance on all I care to, the basic case for the design inference as an empirically grounded endeavour that has basic scientific credibility, absent interposition of ideological agendas. My bottomline is simple and well warranted: YOUR ATTEMPTED RECATEGORISATION OF DESIGN THEORY IS TENDENTIOUS AND QUESTION-BEGGING IN A WAY THAT IS IDEOLOGICALLY AND RHETORICALLY LOADED. It is thus fundamentally off the mark. Please correct it. Good day. KFkairosfocus
January 26, 2013
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Gregory:
The “leading ID proponents” (other than Berlinski) all personally accept Abrahamic faith.
So what? Most, if not all, leaders of evolutionism are atheists.Joe
January 26, 2013
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Gregory:
Simple question – Yes or No: Is there a Big-ID (IDM) theory of human-made things?
"Big-ID" exists only in your mind, Gregory. So no one outside of your mind can say anything about it.Joe
January 26, 2013
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William J. Murray, Simple question - Yes or No: Is there a Big-ID (IDM) theory of human-made things? If you think there is, then please point us direclty to authors' names and papers. Journal titles or book titles, publishers are also welcome. I just don't think you'll find any. That's 'charitable reading,' even as Wiker and Witt are concerned. Otherwise, what's your argument other than that you personally want to call 'human-made things' as 'intelligently designed' when there is no theoretical need to call them that? The "leading ID proponents" (other than Berlinski) all personally accept Abrahamic faith. This is simply a fact of the IDM. I've studied this more than pretty much anyone else on the planet! Why reject their values and personality, just as atheists and 'brights' want you to do when instead you can embrace the legitimacy of Abrahamic believers accepting 'scientific' theory that is not restricted to 'naturalism' or 'materialism'? I am supporting for you that option. My approach is decades ahead of the IDM and you would likely embrace it if you understood it. But please understand, I cannot associate with them because of the very duplicity you are (perhaps unknowingly) demonstrating in this thread. Once you acknowledge there is no Big-ID theory of human-made things, you will be liberated from trying to defend such an indefensible position. More liberation will come after that...Gregory
January 26, 2013
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KF: Still is lacking comprehension and plainly offering no solution. You wrote 5959 characters w/out spaces and 7113 characters with spaces. I can count. Obviously you can't. Write numbers, not text please! Just offer direct FSCO/I numbers to my question in #118. Everything else will not be read. A curious stone several hundreds or 1000s of years ago in England does not categorically compare with the 3 examples given above in 'real time.' Battleships are designed by human beings. As Homer Simpson would say: 'Duh.' Do you call that a 'scientific theory'?!?! You can't quantify your 'theory.' Go fish!Gregory
January 26, 2013
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It seems to me that Gregory's argument here is rooted in a particular conceptual framework that interprets the arguments put forth by leading ID proponents in terms of the Abrahamic faith. It also appears that Gregory is entirely committed to framing every argument about intelligent design in those terms. I wonder which form of ID that the researchers at SETI, or the designers of the Voyager greetings from Earth package, were operating under as they equivocated the difference between "what is produced by a human, and what is not produced by a human"? In any event, I've reached the limits of "charitable reading" as far as Gregory is concerned. He seems intent on insult, character assassination and motive-mongering.William J Murray
January 26, 2013
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G, re:
there is no logically or coherently quantifiable FSCO/I of human-made things. KF’s failure is a case in point.
Since you have been repeatedly corrected on facts and have been confronted with a live case in point above, this is a statement made in disregard of duties of care to the truth and to fairness, hoping to profit by a repeated false narrative being perceived as truth. Here, multiplied by an attempt to personalise and polarise. Kindly, cease and desist. Let me answer this on the merits by taking the 110 ASCII character snippet just cited as an example of functionally specific, complex organisation and associated information relevant to the Chi_500 analysis. 1: 110 ASCII characters in a string structure [thus, a nodes and arcs one dimensional pattern] at 7 bits per character [the 8th being a parity check for error detection] yields a field of possibilities of 128^110 = 6.21 * 10^231 possibilities 2: This is well beyond the 10^150 possibilities stored by 500 or so bits. 3: Where, as was shown here on (and as has been previously linked), the 3.27*10^150 possibilities for 500 bits, relative to the number of atomic states for 10^57 atoms [the scope of our solar system, the effective universe we have for atomic interaction level phenomena] for a reasonable lifespan estimate, is as taking a one straw sized sample to a cubical haystack 1,000 LY on the side. Effectively, as thick as our galaxy. 4: Sampling theory will assure us that, even if such a haystack were superposed on our galactic neighbourhood, and such a blind chance and necessity sample were taken, with all but certainty, it would reflect the bulk of the distribution, straw. 5: Accordingly, blind chance and mechanical necessity can be operationally ruled out as reasonable explanations for such a phenomenon. Lucky noise is a non-starter in short. 6: There is a known, easily observed causal factor capable of generating such a functional string, reflecting assertions in English reflecting the ideological agenda of a known individual. Namely, design. 7: As opposed to lucky noise on the Internet. 8: Extending further, as AutoCAD etc show by being engineering drawing software, any object or process of interest can be reduced to a structured nodes and arcs pattern and stored as a collection of strings, similar to the above text. 9: So, the analysis of strings as above is WLOG. Indeed that is what I did in doing a live estimate of the FSCO/I in Mr Garvey's stones a few days ago. 10: The overall result then applies: once we can identify a system and reduce it to an FSCO/I rich structure, that is evidence that it is designed. 11: For, the fundamental point is that functional forms dependent on the precise interaction of correctly arranged and cohesively coupled elements will -- by the constraints implied by need to function -- be confined to very tight clusters in the space of possibilities for the relevant number of bits. The usual image for this is, islands of function, which -- contrary tot he sort of objecting talking points that are all too commonly seen -- are a very well known phenomenon indeed, if you have ever had to try to get a program of some complexity right, or to design and build a complex electronic circuit or if you know the way that knockout studies identify the functioning of genes based on the breakdown of a given life function on removing the key part in question. (Notice the date and the series in which this appears.) 12: And, putting on another hat for a moment, to address the example that G tried to use as a distractor above, I repeat: an NFL team is a sociotechnical system, with a vast array of organised elements, which indeed maps to the FSCO/I analysis. Just think about the contracts for the players, the accounting system that manages the team's accounts, the managerial structure, the training schemes and documentation etc etc etc, not to mention that well known term: game plan. 13: The abundant FSCO/I present in such a system abundantly vindicates the conclusion that it again confirms the point that FSCO/I is a signature of design, and that it is recognised in the world of commonly encountered designers. 14: Of course, given the pattern of recycling already adequately answered objections as though they retain force: I have already had to point out that the common objection that design is only warranted with reference to humans, by showing that being human is neither necessary nor sufficient to account for design. Beavers, limited but capable designers, design dams. merely being human does not suffice to explain say the design of a computer. It is knowledgeable, skilled and capable intelligence that explains design, as any but the utterly hostile and intransigent can easily enough see. _____________ This all brings us back to the pivotal point in the OP. What is the difference between a battleship and a pile of ore-bearing rocks that can be used to make such a contrivance? Is this difference obvious and objective? Can it be specified as to what it is? Can this be reduced to a metric model? I would put it to you, Gregory, that there is an obvious and even blatant difference having to do with purposeful processing and counterflow transformation reflected in an organised entity, known as a battleship. I further put it to you that that organisation is functionally specific, as is manifested by how battleships can be destroyed or rendered inoperable by hitting them in the right places. indeed, there are quite a few well known incidents of just that. Further yet, that organisation can be reflected in a nodes and arcs pattern, as is documented in the blueprints used in building such a battleship and the existence of AutoCAD. Yet further, that pattern can be reduced to a functionally specific information metric and c=it can be shown that once the complexity involved is beyond a reasonable threshold, the only known adequate causal explanation is design, a point backed up by the needle in the haystack analysis already highlighted above. So, there is an empirically grounded, reliable inference from FSCO/I to design that applies to text in English and to battleships alike. Further, it can be extended to say the discovery of a space battleship on mars. And, this analysis is directly applicable tot he observed phenomena in the living cell and onward to the inferred original cell based life, especially to the genome. It is therefore patent that, on empirical grounds, it is a reasonable and well warranted conclusion that the living cell -- per the discoveries of the past 60 years -- strongly reflects design as credible cause. So, I say onward --and notice, this is the point where I address the ideological disputes -- those who nailed their flags to the mast of the ship that purported to show that the spontaneous materialistic origin of life by means of chemical evolution and onward chance variation and differential reproductive success in ecological niches, now need to face the impact of the evidence on their ideologies, without being allowed to beg the question by improperly redefining science and censoring its methods and conclusions. But, that is an onward question it is not the science issue at stake, which is where I have focussed my attention above. KFkairosfocus
January 26, 2013
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p.s. for Timaeus' education, so he can't claim to dodge having read Bejan anymore, like he's been dodging reading Gingerich and other TE authors, as Ted Davis noted at ASA... http://www.forbes.com/sites/anthonykosner/2012/02/29/theres-a-new-law-in-physics-and-it-changes-everything/ http://suvudu.com/2012/02/interview-with-design-in-nature-author-adrian-bejan-part-one.html http://www.asme.org/kb/news---articles/media/2012/03/asme-video-honorary-membership-adrian-bejan http://www2.macleans.ca/2012/02/23/review-design-in-nature/ Just interviews, mind you, but still, this can help to familiarise Timaeus instead of his lingering in ignorance of this anti-/non-Big-ID theory of small-d 'design in nature'.Gregory
January 26, 2013
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(cont'd) Kantian Naturalist made this point in #4. I reiterated it again several times. But KN for whatever reason seems not to want to participate further on this topic in this thread or is unable to at this time. Usage of small-id ‘intelligent design’ pretending to have Big-ID backing (i.e. what W.J Murray wrote in the OP) is just as absurd as using ‘memes’ in cultural language of ‘replication’ without originality. It is wrong as a category error, which is denied by both parties because of their broader ‘movement’ aims. My question is very simple: do IDM people waffle between Big-ID and small-id in their language usage? If they do, then good reason is given to propose a clear distinction between them. Owen Gingerich, Christian astronomer and cosmologist has supported such a position.
"When I saw that phrase, 'causes now in operation,' the light went on, because I thought, 'What is the cause now in operation that's responsible for the creation of digital code, of alphabetical information in a digital form?' There's only one: intelligence. So I realized that by using Darwin and Lyell's principle of reasoning, you could make a compelling scientific case for Intelligent Design." – Stephen C. Meyer
"An experience-based analysis of the causal powers of various explanatory hypotheses suggests purposive or intelligent design as a causally adequate--and perhaps the most causally adequate--explanation for the origin of the complex specified information required to build the Cambrian animals and the novel forms they represent." - Stephen C. Meyer
Voila, yes, IDM people, in this case, Stephen C. Meyer, Director of the Centre for (formerly: the renewal of) Science and Culture, obviously waffle between both Big-ID and small-id at their rhetorical preference. Many more cases like this are documented in the public record. You have no possibility of winning this argument, folks, so please try even harder to escape the inevitable! People who have studied and kept track of this type of Flip-Flop behaviour simply are rejected by Big-IDists out of hand. Why? Because showing this reality of communicative double-talk is a serious problem for the IDM’s hoped-for communicative integrity. Otherwise there would be a clear and unequivocal policy preferred by the DI about when Big-ID or small-id should be used. But there isn't such a policy. Those of us neutral observers to the IDM understand quite well why there is not. I would estimate that more than 98% of the comparatively small number of people who accept and promote Big-ID theory actually believe in their ‘heart of hearts’ that the Big-D ‘Designer’ behind Big-ID theory is (hypothesized to be) the ‘G-d’ of the Abrahamic faiths.’ They may have differing views about what they mean by ‘G-d,’ but nevertheless that is what they mean. But this sociological fact is treated with ‘indifference’ by hardcore Big-ID fanatics. Why? Because they want to support a natural scientific ‘revolution’ that has nothing to do with faith and which makes no claim to properly be called a ‘science, philosophy and theology/worldview’ conversation first and foremost, as I and many others clearly recognise. Timaeus has now publically changed his mind at UD (see links above) and simply doesn’t want a clear distinction, even if one could possibly be made. Why, one might ask? Because he seemingly wants to muddy the communicative waters. Why else would he publically hesitate and change his mind from behind his mask? If clearer communication could help, why would he not want it; why not actively promote it? This is actually quite an unusual move for him because it opens him up to charges of promoting ‘universal designism;’ the notion that *everything* is (must be called) designed/Designed. But perhaps because he’s already thrown his 1st life (i.e. unmasked) reputation already together with the IDM, that position being associated with his name doesn’t matter so much to him anymore. Otherwise, it would seem mysterious and something that most IDM proponents should carefully question. A couple of things to note: Timaeusean-ID/id is quite clearly not the same thing as IDM-ID/id. Timaeus does not insist on the scientificity of Big-ID theory, as indicated again in this thread, while the IDM does. He doesn’t “give a rat’s rear end about” it. Well, folks, Timaeus lack of caring obviously shows when he waffles about the scientificity of Big-ID! For example, Dembski’s book “The Design Revolution” opens up in the preface with reference to Thomas Kuhn’s “Scientific Revolution” book. Dembski is obviously intent on trying to create a ‘scientific revolution’ for a scientific theory called ‘intelligent design/Intelligent Design.’ For Dembski Big-ID simply is and must be a science-only theory. But not for Timaeus, who says he doesn’t care. Another example. Once one capitalises ‘Intelligent Design’ it is unclear whether they wish to refer to natural-only or also possibly supernatural causes, i.e. whether ‘intelligent agency/agents’ are natural or if they should be called divine ‘Intelligent Agents.’ Timaeus’ current position would leave us guessing and equivocating. It could be either/or, but nobody should exercise their mind to ask if this is coherent or merely wishy-washy. Stop using your own reason and just accept the legitimacy of Timaeusean non-IDM-ID! “Gregory’s constant use of ‘Big ID’ and ‘little id’ is very simply a foolhardy attempt to get it somehow established into the dilaogue” – PeterJ Obviously not a very well-informed commentator. Does he also really think it is just me who distinguishes the two significantly different meanings?! Those who favour a distinction between Big-ID (upper case ID) and small-id (lower case id) include the following: Owen Gingerich, Randy Isaac, Ted Davis, George Murphy, Stephen Barr, David Campbell, and from UD, Vincent J. Torley, gingoro (Dave Wallace), and likely several others. Those against properly distinguishing between Big-ID and small-id for ideological reasons include (after flip-flopping) Timaeus…and who else? W.J. Murray admitted this was the first time he’s heard of the distinction. Is this a common short-sightedness at UD, where people actually feel they can flip-flop between capitalisation and non-capitalisation at whim as if they really in their heart of hearts mean the same thing?! As Ted Davis wrote in 2009:
“Strobel and Demsbki and Meyer and Wells and Johnson: they are ID with capital letters. Those mentioned earlier in this post [Polkinghorne and Gingerich] are id with small letters. It's a bigger difference than just the size of the type.”
He follows this up, saying:
“I do suspect, ultimately, that ID proponents want ID rather than id, b/c you can't pick up id and use it to batter Coyne over the head: it's a belief, albeit one that (IMO) makes better sense of the whole picture than the alternative, but still it's a belief, not a scientifically demonstrable proposition.”
The question becomes much more ‘personal’ when it is asked: Why do you capitalise the name ‘God’ instead of using the term ‘god’? Iow, why does the amazingly naïve statement “design is design whether the designer happens to be God or man?” really make no sense for most Abrahamic religious believers? Why does proper capitalisation instead make the most sense and help to protect our communication from materialist, atheist and naturalist potential abuses? Is the idea that Protestants want to start de-capitalising ‘G-d’ what IDM people really fear in their proposal of small-ia ‘intelligent agents’ natural-science-only talk? So again, we see here the logical and coherent difference between IDM-ID and Timaeusian-ID/id in that Timaeus doesn’t care if Big-ID is called ‘scientific’ or not. The IDM, otoh, obviously does care and desperately wants to achieve the ‘scientific’ label. What Timaeus really means (behind his philosophy/religious studies on-line sock puppet), therfore, is that he doesn’t care if he is orthodox or not, or that the explanatory power of Big-ID is reduced to almost nothing because that is what Big-ID theory demands by denying any possibility to discuss Designers and Designing processes. Instead, Big-ID theory, as Timaeus regularly tries to defend it, just wants to claim it is ‘natural scientific,’ which, for most of us who have studied philosophy, history and sociology of science in the past 20 or so years, is simply laughable. In short, W.J. Murray’s “simple argument for intelligent design” is actually not an argument for Big-ID theory or the IDM at all. For Murray, ID is not a theory, it is simply a presumed reality that need not be ‘scientifically’ proven. I can't see much more reason to continue in this thread if you folks can't even concede a simple point: “There simply is no Big-ID theory of human-made things!” William J. Murray was thus simply using jargon that most people will easily reject when he made his "simple argument for small-id 'intelligent design'" as if it had any connection with Big-ID theory. It doesn't and Murray should adjust his langauge, but likely won't out of 'movement' loyalties.Gregory
January 26, 2013
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