Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

A Word About Our Moderation Policy

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Some commenters have raised questions regarding the propriety of recent posts and UD’s moderation policy. UD’s moderation policy is fairly simple: As a general rule, so long as your comment is not defamatory profane, or a vicious personal attack, you can say pretty much what you want. We have no interest in censoring viewpoints, because we believe ID is true and consequently in any full and fair debate we will win — and if we don’t win we either need to learn to debate better or change our position. Don’t get me wrong. I’m not opening this site up to nasty juvenile name-calling fests like one see so often at Panda’s Thumb.  But if you keep your comments restricted to ideas and not attacking people, you should have no problems passing muster here.

What about the “God-bashing” and the defenses of God that have appeared in these pages? God can take care of Himself. We at UD feel no need to protect Him from defamation. Bash away. Those who are offended by (or disagree with) the bashing are welcome to post such defenses as they deem appropriate. There are limits, however. This site is not intended to be a forum for extensive religious debates. Religious issues inevitably come up from time to time and people should feel free to discuss them from both sides when they do. But the moderators will exercise their judgment and gavel discussions that stray too far a field from the purpose of this site for too long.

I personally find the God-bashing disturbing. So why do I allow it? As one of my colleagues has aptly said, the wiser course, when someone attacks God is to let those UD commenters who are theists respond to the charges. Our readers will then be in a position to see: (1) that UD, unlike the Darwinists, doesn’t ban or censor ideas; and (2) that theism in general and Christianity in particular is quite capable of defending itself against lies, distortions, illogical arguments, and misunderstandings. Our role is not to censor ideas but to provide a forum where hard questions can be discussed calmly, fully, and fairly, and we trust that when that happens truth will prevail.

Certainly there is risk to this approach. Some will reject truth and embrace error. But the consequences of pursuing the alternative course – ignoring or even running from the hard questions – would be far worse.

Finally, some have asked whether we should even discuss “peripheral issues” at UD, such as Darwin’s racism or the implications of ID for the theodicy. This site is devoted not only to scientific theories of origins, but also to the metaphysical and moral implications of those theories. Plainly BOTH Darwinism and ID have implications beyond the science. Certainly Darwinsts like “intellectually fulfilled” atheist Richard Dawkins understand the metaphysical implications of Darwinism and talk about those implications ad nauseum. What hypocritical balderdash for anyone to suggest a double standard prohibiting those of us with a different point of view from doing the exact same thing from our perspective – and we will continue to do so.

Comments
Bill, I think you should apologize to us. After all this going back and forth, it was us who have the sophisticated understanding of modern evolutionary theory and you were fixated on the trivial micro evolution which is not at issue. You wasted a lot of our time.
I've focused upon a single request, a request that has nothing whatever to do with "microevolution": Describe entailments that arise of necessity from intelligent design theory. Then describe an empirical test of those entailments, such that ID theory is put at risk of disconfirmation. No one, including you, has even remotely responded to these simple requests, which are grounded in the absolute basics of scientific epistemology.Reciprocating_Bill
March 20, 2009
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From: 252 Joseph 03/20/2009 8:10 am Via tried and true design detection techniques- observation and experience. And these are what? I am sure that archaeologists and forensic scietists just flip a coin. And where has this been applied rigorously to design in biology? That is how science is conducted right? By flipping a coin? None that I am aware of at least. But the question remains, where has designed detection techniques been rigorously applied to biology, genetics or other life science? Geez it seems to work so what is your problem? (end sarcasm) I am not getting direct answers only the run around. As to “ID being about the designer, not the designer”, that is a misleading sentence. It isn’t misleading it is a FACT. It is only a fact due to the fact that ID-proponents purposely stop there to avoid the sticky issue of who or what the designers are. Ya see we don’t have to know anything about the designer BEFORE determining whether or not the object in question was designed. Which is very disenginuous at the very least. If you believe you see design, a fingerprint, knowing who left the fingerprint is just as important. Like the forensic experts you call upon. Not only do they look to find if there are any "fingerprints" at the scene, they look to find out how many sets of fingerprints there are. Then they go to indentify to whom the fingerprints bellong. They take it further to see if someone planted false evidence and who that was. In forensics, the identification of those that "designed" the incident is the first concern. They don't get to a scene, say, "Yeah, looks like someone designed this accident so it wasn't an accident but a homicide. You have already assumed the designer is intelligent and by association, competent and thorough. Thorough? I never made that assumption. “Intelligent” I explained that. “Competent” at least competent enough to mhave designed what we are observing. But that is the catch. If you were to go to a river and saw a damn, would you think it was intelligently designed? Same with the honeycombs of beehives. Are they intelligently designed? See you have already assumed that things in nature were designed by intelligence as to better accommodate the idea you have of the designer. Isn't that true? Like I stated, nothing in ID goes after the designers. Why not? Forensic experts find the "design" to identify the perp. For the REASON I provided plus other valid reasons. Your reason is not objective, it is subjective. Also, what "other" reasons? That said ID does NOT prevent people from asking those questions. But it seems to want to freeze them out. It is just that ID was not formulated to do so. So ID was specifically designed to be limited? ID is ONLY about first detecting and then studying the design. But couldn't there be multiple designers? If so, how would ID handle designers of different competencies and abilities? Again, Forensics look for the "signatures" in the "design" to identify those responsible. Why is ID being treated differently?FrankH
March 20, 2009
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Reciprocating Bill, ID accepts natural selection, genetic drift and gene flow which are essentially part of the genetic side of the evolutionary synthesis and is known as part of micro evolution. This represents trivial change and ID does not dispute it and in fact I personally have often called it great design. But it is not the essence of the debate which has always been the source of variation on which natural selection and genetic drift and other genetic factors such as recombination can operate. As a population divides for whatever reason and faces a new environment, the population gene pool will get narrower as selection and drift eliminates some alleles. Each such occurrence enables the population to adapt but it lessens the chance that it will be able to adapt in the future to a shift in environment. This is micro evolution 101 and we all accept it here. Bill, I think you should apologize to us. After all this going back and forth, it was us who have the sophisticated understanding of modern evolutionary theory and you were fixated on the trivial micro evolution which is not at issue. You wasted a lot of our time.jerry
March 20, 2009
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And tell me why that designer would be constrained to create creatures that are complex, rather than impossibly simple.
No such constraints exist. However had living organisms been so simple such that nature, operating freely, ie they can be reduced to matter, energy, chance and necessity, then a designer would be a superfulous inference- ie deemed unnecessary. If Stonehnege were more simple then geologist, not archaeologists, would be studying it. IOW there wouldn't be any reason for an archaeologist to figure it out if nature, operating freely can account for it. And if creatures were "impossibly simple" I would expect to continually see them arising from non-living matter.Joseph
March 20, 2009
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Via tried and true design detection techniques- observation and experience.
And these are what?
I am sure that archaeologists and forensic scietists just flip a coin. That is how science is conducted right? By flipping a coin? Geez it seems to work so what is your problem? (end sarcasm)
As to “ID being about the designer, not the designer”, that is a misleading sentence.
It isn't misleading it is a FACT. Ya see we don't have to know anything about the designer BEFORE determining whether or not the object in question was designed.
You have already assumed the designer is intelligent and by association, competent and thorough.
Thorough? I never made that assumption. "Intelligent" I explained that. "Competent" at least competent enough to mhave designed what we are observing.
Like I stated, nothing in ID goes after the designers.
For the REASON I provided plus other valid reasons. That said ID does NOT prevent people from asking those questions. It is just that ID was not formulated to do so. ID is ONLY about first detecting and then studying the design.Joseph
March 20, 2009
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From: 1: How are those structures that are designed determined vs ad hoc ones? Via tried and true design detection techniques- observation and experience. And these are what? Could these determine if the human eye was designed? What about the cephalopod's eye? As to "ID being about the designer, not the designer", that is a misleading sentence. You have already assumed the designer is intelligent and by association, competent and thorough. Like I stated, nothing in ID goes after the designers. To do so would invite disaster. Nothing about the competencies, number, qualities nor even if they themselves were designed. It doesn't want to ask those questions.FrankH
March 20, 2009
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And BTW RB, The premise of common design could be readily refuted- IOW it is open to testing and I even provided a way to falsify that premise. So keep flailing away I find it very entertaining...Joseph
March 20, 2009
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It was a question not an insult. Ya see had you read the books you would have said so FIRST and then premised the questions from that. As for conjecture- well that is ALL the theory of evolution is- basically speculation based on the assumption. And ALL the theory nof evolution has is a glossy narrative. That is it. Period, end of story...Joseph
March 20, 2009
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From: 246 Joseph 03/20/2009 7:33 am If you have any SPECIFIC questions after you read those books then come back and ask. OK Frank, which of those books did you read? You do understand English, right? Ah, insults. Excellent. Books: Darwin's Black Box The Design Matrix and Politically Incorrect Guide to Darwinism and Intelligent Design. Yes, I know they "address", I read it as "skirt around the issues", of the questions I asked you. But that is the rub, they do not answer anything just make conjecture. Do you understand English?FrankH
March 20, 2009
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1: How are those structures that are designed determined vs ad hoc ones?
Via tried and true design detection techniques- observation and experience.
2: Are there more than one designer?
That is a possibility. ID is about the DESIGN not the designer(s).
3: What is the desgner(s) like?
Don't know. If we knew the designer we wouldn't have a design INFERENCE. Design would be a given. Ya see in the absence of direct observation or designer input, the ONLY possible way to make any scientific determination about the designer(s) or the specific process(es) used, is by studying the design in question.
4: Why is the designer(s) intelligent?
The "Intelligent" in Intelligent Design is to differentiate between apparent design on one side and optimal design on the other. Read this article for a more thorough explanation.
5: Last, what designed this designer(s)?
ID is not about the designer. Read the following: Who Designed the Designer?Joseph
March 20, 2009
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If you have any SPECIFIC questions after you read those books then come back and ask. OK Frank, which of those books did you read? You do understand English, right?Joseph
March 20, 2009
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You omitted selection, as well as other necessary factors that are integral to evolutionary theory, as I just stated.
ACCUMULATION is the SELECTION part. I have already explained that. Why do YOU ignore it? Also every other factor is an ACCIDENT- that is according to the cureent theory.
Moreover, since current astrophysics also postulates uniformity as an assumption
No it doesn't. IOW there isn't ANY reason, besides ID, that the universe should be the way it is. If ID were true we should observe traces of agency involvement. If we don't observe traces of agency involvement ID woulkd be superfulous- IOW it is an unnecessary inference and as a matyer of fact would never have been postulated. So what we have is RB and RS REFUSING to read pro-ID literture, and REFUSING to accept the reality of what it would take to falsify/ disconfirm ID- even though it is printed in black & white. Now to counter my claim all RB and RS have to do is demonstrate what testable predictions come from unguided and blind evolutionary processes. That way we can compare. However it is obvious that ALL they can do is present vague "predictions" based on an even more vague theory of evolution.Joseph
March 20, 2009
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From: 240 Joseph 03/20/2009 6:50 am If you really want to know about ID there are many books written that will do just that. That puts ID in the same category as "The Inner Goddess" and "Crystal Therapy" books. No research, hence the term "research paper" to go by for either. If you have any SPECIFIC questions after you read those books then come back and ask. I have some: 1: How are those structures that are designed determined vs ad hoc ones? 2: Are there more than one designer? 3: What is the desgner(s) like? Even in archeology, one of the first steps after rigorous determination that the artifact is indeed one that was made by an early civilization, archeologists go out to reconstruct the culture, mindsets and more of those early "designers of artifacts". 4: Why is the designer(s) intelligent? Could they be incompetent but lucky that one group (after all look at all the galaxies, the billions upon billions of stars in them and the planets which we now find are ubiquitous in almost any star system) and not so smart? 5: Last, what designed this designer(s)? Doesn't ID just push back the question of "where and how did life begin and evolve"? Thanks for your time.FrankH
March 20, 2009
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That IS the theory of evolution!
You omitted selection, as well as other necessary factors that are integral to evolutionary theory, as I just stated.
[common design/uniformity] is an inference from observations and experience.
Although you originally presented it as a (tautological) entailment of common design ("if the universe was the product of a common design then I would expect..."), turns out it is NOT an entailment (necessary consequence) after all. It is an inference from observations and experience. Not the same thing. As such (derived from inference and experience) observed uniformity has no necessary connection with ID, and to assert any such connection is ad hoc until you describe why it necessarily arises as an entailment of ID. Therefore observations in this domain can neither confirm nor disconfirm ID. In short, it fails as a response to my simple request for an empirically testable entailment of ID that places ID at risk of disconfirmation. Moreover, since current astrophysics also postulates uniformity as an assumption, it isn't a "prediction" unique to ID, and cannot justify the preference of current (fertile and productive) framework from ID (which is empirically barren).
If you have any SPECIFIC questions after you read those books then come back and ask.
Just one - Would you please complete the following? If design is true then we should observe ________. If we don’t observe _______ our theory is at risk of disconfirmation.”Reciprocating_Bill
March 20, 2009
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Intelligent Design is premised on the SAME idea as that of archaeology, forensics and SETI- Mainly that when agencies act they leave traces of their actions behind. Such actions can be encapsulated by work or counterflow. Both CSI and IC are examples of work/ counterflow. This is because that in all of our experience and observations, every time we have observed CSI and IC, and knew the cause it was ALWAYS via agency involvement. Therefor to refute ID all one has to do is DEMONSTRATE that the observed CSI and IC can be accounted for via matter, energy, chance and necessity. Now if RB and RS don't like that that is too bad. I would say that they do not understand science. And as for "naturalism" the ONLT explanation for the laws that govern nature provided by "naturalism" is "They just are (the way the are)" -Hawking in "A Briefer History of Time". Is that testable? No, but that is "naturalism" for ya.Joseph
March 20, 2009
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Richard Simons chimes in with the standard nonsense:
I understood you to be trying to say that, because you can’t think of a way for transcription and translation to evolve, therefore ID.
ID is NOT anti-evolution. Why is that simple point so difficult for you to understand? Did that process evolve by design or did it evolve via an accumulation of genetic accidents? IOW do you think a blind search for something that doesn't yet exist is a valid model?
I notice that Behe’s blog does not allow comments and I was unable to read more than the abstract of Durrett’s paper, but from a response I found elsewhere it seems that Behe made the elementary mistake of assuming that the two mutations had to be more or less simultaneous.
Behe doesn't make that mistake.
I have been asking you to present a falsifiable prediction to test the concept of ID from the beginning and you have been dodging the issue
I have provided exactly that. You just refuse to accept what I have provided because you have some mental block.
Don’t put words into my mouth. I have never said that evolution (or “evolution” if you prefer) and ID are opposites.
You don't have to say it. Your posts say it for you: I understood you to be trying to say that, because you can’t think of a way for transcription and translation to evolve, therefore ID YOU are contrasting evolution to ID.
The TOE has resulted in thousands of testable predictions where there has been not a one from ID.
There isn't one testable prediction based on the mechanism of an accumulation of genetioc accidents. None, nada, zero, zip, zilch.
If IDers want to become real scientists they must produce testable predictions then actually put them to the test, otherwise they are just playing at being scientists.
Been there, done that. Just because you refuse to acknowledge it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.Joseph
March 20, 2009
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“Common design” is an ad hoc character you’ve attached to “Intentional Design.”
Wrong again. It is an inference from observations and experience. Ya see THAST is how science operates. Make an observation then try to explain it using various methods. Are you trying to say that the theory of evolution is not ad hoc/ post hoc? You are full of it.
Can’t have it both ways, Joseph. The scientific framework that honors what we know about the physical world is called “naturalism.”
Nonsense. You can call it what you want but it does not make it so.
Current evolutionary theory is the most complete account of the history of life on earth within the framework of naturalism.
And current evolutionary theory is nonsense. For example even though we know much more about eyes and vision systems than Darwin did, the "evidence" for their evolution remains the same- that is we have observed varying degrees of complexity amongst eyes and vision systems and we "know" the original population(s) did not have either. Truly pathetic. But I understand why you would buy into it.
Intelligent design theory, as repeatedly stated throughout this thread, asserts that natural mechanisms are insufficient to account for the origins and evolution of life on earth, and hence asserts phenomena that are “othernatural.”
Artificial. Just as the pyrimids are artificial and the mechanisms for building them were also artificial. But you haven’t demonstrated any knowledge of ID. So how would you know what it entails?
Educate me.
Pay me. Ya see I don't deal with people who are willfully ignorant. If you really want to know about ID there are many books written that will do just that. It is beyond ridiculous that you would come to a discussion without any knowledge of what is being discussed. ?Recommended Literture Pertaining to ID If you have any SPECIFIC questions after you read those books then come back and ask.Joseph
March 20, 2009
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RB: “Accumulation of genetic accidents” doesn’t comport with any version of evolutionary theory I know. That IS the theory of evolution! According to thne theory EVERY mutation is an accident. According to the theory natural selection helps thjose accidents acumulate. From the “Contemporary Discourse in the Field Of Biology” series I am reading Biological Evolution: An Anthology of Current Thought- a peer-reviewed supplemental high school text:
The old, discredited equation of evolution with progress has been largely superseded by the almost whimsical notion that evolution requires mistakes to bring about specieswide adaptation. Natural selection requires variation, and variation requires mutations- those accidental deletions or additions of material deep within the DNA of our cells. In an increasingly slick, fast-paced, automated, impersonal world, one in which we are constantly being reminded of the narrow margin for error, it is refreshing to be reminded that mistakes are a powerful and necessary creative force. A few important but subtle “mistakes,” in evolutionary terms, may save the human race. -page 10 ending the intro
Joseph
March 20, 2009
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For clarity, amend the first sentence above to read, "No one asserts that genetic errors alone account for the origins of evolutionary adaptations." (Drift and deterioration are change.)Reciprocating_Bill
March 20, 2009
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Jerry @ 234 and Kairos @ 235 No one asserts that genetic errors alone account for evolutionary change. They are a necessary but not sufficient condition for evolution. Do you dispute my prediction above? (drift and deterioration). The monkeys at keyboards illustration omits selection, as well as numerous other mechanisms (eg. population factors, allopatry, etc.) that are critical components of contemporary evolutionary theory. There is a "latching in weasel" discussion ongoing elsewhere on this board in which I know you both are participating; safe to assume that your attention has recently been drawn to that omission, as well as a 10^150 times previously. None of the above comments on "commonality in the cosmos" speak to why such uniformity is a necessary entailment of ID. I say it is an instance of ad hoc conformity to observations. Lest we forget, all the mists and hot air emitted here notwithstanding, I have yet to read, vis ID, anything that completes the following: If design is true then we should observe ________. If we don’t observe _______ our theory is at risk of disconfirmation.”Reciprocating_Bill
March 20, 2009
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PPS: On further examination, this thread is waay off track. Also Joseph please refrain from vulgarity or angry words; which just feeds the trolls. PPPS: As to the inferences from the design explanation, Joseph is correct, per summarising several leading design works. E.g. designs serve a purpose, so they tend to be integrated wholes even in the teeth of tradeoffs and balancing acts that my be required along the way [look up TRIZ]. As artifacts of intelligence, it would be unsurprising that hey would be intelligible. And, where we have functionality, fine-tuned, complex, information-rich complexity is unsurprising. Algorithmic processes [discrete state control; e.g. a snack vending machine], and control loop-based control with hierarchies are again commonplace features and characteristics of design. The problem with the objectors is that all of this sounds all too familiar about the universe and about life forms in it. So, they have -- as usual - resorted to diversions. the mod policy, again, needs to cut off such diversions, if the threads are to remain productive. BTW: On a commonality across the scope of the4 observed cosmos, astronomy provides light and gravitational phenomena as good instances. For instance, the red-shifted Fraunhoffer lines in stellar and galactic spectra are consistent with a cosmos-scale expansion process, and with the presence of the elementary particles and elements familiar to us form studying the elements in our periodic table. That observed galaxies take the known range of elliptical, spiral, barred spiral (as ours evidently is) and irregular/peculiar forms strongly suggests that the same dynamics that we know locally are and have been working across the scale of the cosmos as a while. Similarly the 2.7 K black body spectrum microwave background is a strong sign of a common process. UNITY is there to be seen; the same unity that led newton to speak of common Law given by a common Pantokrator in his General Scholium, which will still well repay an insightful reading (one not biased by current selectively hyperskeptical secularist tendencies).kairosfocus
March 20, 2009
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RB @ 220: Really now. Kindly show me a case of known to be produced by chance + necessity only contextually responsive text in ASCII English characters, of at least 143 length -- about 18 words; 1 - 2 good sentences. I am able to show you endless cases of intelligent designers implementing such strings -- yourself included. Further to this, kindly show me any case of computer programs of length exceeding 1,000 bits [about 128 bytes . . . ] and/or associated data structures with functional contents, that have been known to be created by chance plus necessity only. (Rumours about "uncle Bill" hiring large numbers of Bonobos at about the time Vista was under development will not suffice!) GEM of TKI PS: here is my update to the monkeys at typewriters challenge. [You will see that I put far more confidence in hardware noise generators than software games. The zener driver ckt will have to be validated as giving reasonably flat random output -- circuits exist for that.] Care to take it on? It would be a very easy way to show the plausibility of chance + necessity producing FSCI within the gamut of the observed universe's search resources. And if you succeed -- but note the integrity of the expt would have to be audited independently, the CSI plank of the ID theory would collapse.kairosfocus
March 20, 2009
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"“Accumulation of genetic accidents” doesn’t comport with any version of evolutionary theory I know" I think you should check on what is cutting edge evolutionary theory. It is exactly the accumulation of genetic accidents that is the main theory these days. I told you to read Brosius' article. You should stop commenting to you get up to speed.jerry
March 19, 2009
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"If evolutionary biology want to become real scientists they must produce testable predictions then actually put them to the test, otherwise they are just playing at being scientists."jerry
March 19, 2009
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Joseph:
Transciption and translation remain very good evidnce for ID in biology. Either that, or they are evidence of your lack of information and imagination, resulting in your inability to think of an evolutionary explanation. So imagination is an acceptable substitute for real data? Are you soft?
I understood you to be trying to say that, because you can't think of a way for transcription and translation to evolve, therefore ID. If you did not mean this, please could you clarify your statement.
Read the following paper: Waiting for two mutations: with applications to regulatory sequence evolution and the limits of Darwinian evolution Then read Dr Behe’s responses to it: Waiting longer for two mutations
I notice that Behe's blog does not allow comments and I was unable to read more than the abstract of Durrett's paper, but from a response I found elsewhere it seems that Behe made the elementary mistake of assuming that the two mutations had to be more or less simultaneous.
The ribosome is a genetic compiler. Analogies can be taken too far. It’s not an analogy to those of us who understand what compilers and ribosomes do.
Don't be condescending. I used to spend many hours programming in Algol and Fortran (and other languages), and last week I explained the function of ribosomes to my students.
IDers have never presented us with any falsifiable prediction to test the concept. You say that out of ignorance of course.
I have been asking you to present a falsifiable prediction to test the concept of ID from the beginning and you have been dodging the issue, so who's fault is it that I am still ignorant?
But that much has been obvious from your first post and your continued insistence that “evolution” and ID are opposites.
Don't put words into my mouth. I have never said that evolution (or "evolution" if you prefer) and ID are opposites. Although in a sense of course you are right. The TOE has resulted in thousands of testable predictions where there has been not a one from ID. If IDers want to become real scientists they must produce testable predictions then actually put them to the test, otherwise they are just playing at being scientists.Richard Simons
March 19, 2009
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229 OK Reciprocating_Bill, Let’s see the entailments pertaing to an accumulation of genetic accidents. Put up the predictions and what would disconfirm them.
"Accumulation of genetic accidents" doesn't comport with any version of evolutionary theory I know. That said, the "accumulation of genetic accidents" in a population, alone (absent selection), would result in drift and ultimately a reduction in the average fitness/success of that population. Drift and reduced reproductive success are readily observable.Reciprocating_Bill
March 19, 2009
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Joseph @ 230
That is the understanding of what a common design entails.
"Common design" is an ad hoc character you've attached to "Intentional Design." That, asserted tautologically, doesn't improve your position.
I disagree. If living organisms were the result of intelligent design I would expect to find organisms with no interacting parts to wear out or break down.
Why? That seems a little childish and silly.
Now you're starting to get it. It's a parody of your assertions, which are equally arbitrary, ad hoc, and, to my ear, silly.
It appears that you don’t understand much of the physical world.
Can't have it both ways, Joseph. The scientific framework that honors what we know about the physical world is called "naturalism." Current evolutionary theory is the most complete account of the history of life on earth within the framework of naturalism. Intelligent design theory, as repeatedly stated throughout this thread, asserts that natural mechanisms are insufficient to account for the origins and evolution of life on earth, and hence asserts phenomena that are "othernatural." Above I state the entailments of a (satirical) alternative intelligent design theory that is also othernatural. Rather than strictly reflecting natural law, it too reflects the will of an intelligent agent.
But you haven’t demonstrated any knowledge of ID. So how would you know what it entails?
Educate me. Describe why "common design" at the cosmological level is a necessary entailment of ID at that level. And tell me why that designer would be constrained to create creatures that are complex, rather than impossibly simple. I would have thought that a designer capable of creating the laws of physics could have it any way he wanted. Why do these qualities necessarily flow from intelligent design?Reciprocating_Bill
March 19, 2009
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From: 230 Joseph 03/19/2009 7:29 pm 1) If the universe was the product of a common design then I would expect it to be governed by one (common) set of parameters. I disagree. If the universe was a product of intelligent design I would expect to find various compartments, each governed by a different set of laws intended to facility various designed outcomes. I speak from decades of design experience. That is the understanding of what a common design entails. The KEY word being COMMON. I take it you missed that in my prediction. Why is that? Are you assigning human attributes to these designer(s)? Wouldn't that like saying you are giving human limitations to somethings or someones who are far beyond humanity? Are you saying that we can know this being, these beings' minds? Try reading what I post. It seems as though you are assigning human engineering/your specific parameters to an alleged designer. If living organisms were the result of intentional design then I would expect to see that living organisms are (and contain subsystems that are) irreducibly complex and/ or contain complex specified information. IOW I would expect to see an intricacy that is more than just a sum of chemical reactions (endothermic or exothermic). I disagree. If living organisms were the result of intelligent design I would expect to find organisms with no interacting parts to wear out or break down. Why? That seems a little childish and silly. It appears that you don’t understand much of the physical world. No it seems like good design practices. As someone who designs things, networks in this case, I do my best to have redundancies even after I build in robust and long lasting devices. Now, if I had the ability to not only design but create the things that I'd be using for my creations, rest assured it would be of stuff that is tough, robust and redundant ESPECIALLY for things I consider my "prize creations". The point being, Joseph, is that you are pulling these assertions out of your, er, hat, in an entirely ad hoc manner. Wrong again, as usual. Actually he is correct. You are assigning what you want to see and making excuses for less than optimal designs. YOU are twisting them because you can pull stuff out of your arse. I see no way in which they are necessary entailments of a theory of intelligent or intentional design. But you haven’t demonstrated any knowledge of ID. So how would you know what it entails? And how do you show what is and what is not designed? How does the ID filter work as to be able to determine what is designed, what is not designed and what is something else?FrankH
March 19, 2009
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1) If the universe was the product of a common design then I would expect it to be governed by one (common) set of parameters.
I disagree. If the universe was a product of intelligent design I would expect to find various compartments, each governed by a different set of laws intended to facility various designed outcomes.
I speak from decades of design experience. That is the understanding of what a common design entails. The KEY word being COMMON. I take it you missed that in my prediction. Try reading what I post. If living organisms were the result of intentional design then I would expect to see that living organisms are (and contain subsystems that are) irreducibly complex and/ or contain complex specified information. IOW I would expect to see an intricacy that is more than just a sum of chemical reactions (endothermic or exothermic).
I disagree. If living organisms were the result of intelligent design I would expect to find organisms with no interacting parts to wear out or break down.
Why? That seems a little childish and silly. It appears that you don't understand much of the physical world.
The point being, Joseph, is that you are pulling these assertions out of your, er, hat, in an entirely ad hoc manner.
Wrong again, as usual. YOU are twisting them because you can pull stuff out of your arse.
I see no way in which they are necessary entailments of a theory of intelligent or intentional design.
But you haven't demonstrated any knowledge of ID. So how would you know what it entails?Joseph
March 19, 2009
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OK Reciprocating_Bill, Let's see the entailments pertaing to an accumulation of genetic accidents. Put up the predictions and what would disconfirm them.Joseph
March 19, 2009
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