Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

A world-famous chemist tells the truth: there’s no scientist alive today who understands macroevolution

Categories
Intelligent Design
Share
Facebook
Twitter/X
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

Professor James M. Tour is one of the ten most cited chemists in the world. He is famous for his work on nanocars (pictured above, courtesy of Wikipedia), nanoelectronics, graphene nanostructures, carbon nanovectors in medicine, and green carbon research for enhanced oil recovery and environmentally friendly oil and gas extraction. He is currently a Professor of Chemistry, Professor of Computer Science, and Professor of Mechanical Engineering and Materials Science at Rice University. He has authored or co-authored 489 scientific publications and his name is on 36 patents. Although he does not regard himself as an Intelligent Design theorist, Professor Tour, along with over 700 other scientists, took the courageous step back in 2001 of signing the Discovery Institute’s “A Scientific Dissent from Darwinism”, which read: “We are skeptical of claims for the ability of random mutation and natural selection to account for the complexity of life. Careful examination of the evidence for Darwinian theory should be encouraged.”

On Professor Tour’s Website, there’s a very revealing article on evolution and creation, in which Tour bluntly states that he does not understand how macroevolution could have happened, from a chemical standpoint (all bold emphases below are mine – VJT):

Although most scientists leave few stones unturned in their quest to discern mechanisms before wholeheartedly accepting them, when it comes to the often gross extrapolations between observations and conclusions on macroevolution, scientists, it seems to me, permit unhealthy leeway. When hearing such extrapolations in the academy, when will we cry out, “The emperor has no clothes!”?

…I simply do not understand, chemically, how macroevolution could have happened. Hence, am I not free to join the ranks of the skeptical and to sign such a statement without reprisals from those that disagree with me? … Does anyone understand the chemical details behind macroevolution? If so, I would like to sit with that person and be taught, so I invite them to meet with me.

In a more recent talk, entitled, Nanotech and Jesus Christ, given on 1 November 2012 at Georgia Tech, Professor Tour went further, and declared that no scientist that he has spoken to understands macroevolution – and that includes Nobel Prize winners! Here’s what he said when a student in the audience asked him about evolution:

I will tell you as a scientist and a synthetic chemist: if anybody should be able to understand evolution, it is me, because I make molecules for a living, and I don’t just buy a kit, and mix this and mix this, and get that. I mean, ab initio, I make molecules. I understand how hard it is to make molecules. I understand that if I take Nature’s tool kit, it could be much easier, because all the tools are already there, and I just mix it in the proportions, and I do it under these conditions, but ab initio is very, very hard.

I don’t understand evolution, and I will confess that to you. Is that OK, for me to say, “I don’t understand this”? Is that all right? I know that there’s a lot of people out there that don’t understand anything about organic synthesis, but they understand evolution. I understand a lot about making molecules; I don’t understand evolution. And you would just say that, wow, I must be really unusual.

Let me tell you what goes on in the back rooms of science – with National Academy members, with Nobel Prize winners. I have sat with them, and when I get them alone, not in public – because it’s a scary thing, if you say what I just said – I say, “Do you understand all of this, where all of this came from, and how this happens?” Every time that I have sat with people who are synthetic chemists, who understand this, they go “Uh-uh. Nope.” These people are just so far off, on how to believe this stuff came together. I’ve sat with National Academy members, with Nobel Prize winners. Sometimes I will say, “Do you understand this?”And if they’re afraid to say “Yes,” they say nothing. They just stare at me, because they can’t sincerely do it.

I was once brought in by the Dean of the Department, many years ago, and he was a chemist. He was kind of concerned about some things. I said, “Let me ask you something. You’re a chemist. Do you understand this? How do you get DNA without a cell membrane? And how do you get a cell membrane without a DNA? And how does all this come together from this piece of jelly?” We have no idea, we have no idea. I said, “Isn’t it interesting that you, the Dean of science, and I, the chemistry professor, can talk about this quietly in your office, but we can’t go out there and talk about this?”

If you understand evolution, I am fine with that. I’m not going to try to change you – not at all. In fact, I wish I had the understanding that you have.

But about seven or eight years ago I posted on my Web site that I don’t understand. And I said, “I will buy lunch for anyone that will sit with me and explain to me evolution, and I won’t argue with you until I don’t understand something – I will ask you to clarify. But you can’t wave by and say, “This enzyme does that.” You’ve got to get down in the details of where molecules are built, for me. Nobody has come forward.

The Atheist Society contacted me. They said that they will buy the lunch, and they challenged the Atheist Society, “Go down to Houston and have lunch with this guy, and talk to him.” Nobody has come! Now remember, because I’m just going to ask, when I stop understanding what you’re talking about, I will ask. So I sincerely want to know. I would like to believe it. But I just can’t.

Now, I understand microevolution, I really do. We do this all the time in the lab. I understand this. But when you have speciation changes, when you have organs changing, when you have to have concerted lines of evolution, all happening in the same place and time – not just one line – concerted lines, all at the same place, all in the same environment … this is very hard to fathom.

I was in Israel not too long ago, talking with a bio-engineer, and [he was] describing to me the ear, and he was studying the different changes in the modulus of the ear, and I said, “How does this come about?” And he says, “Oh, Jim, you know, we all believe in evolution, but we have no idea how it happened.” Now there’s a good Jewish professor for you. I mean, that’s what it is. So that’s where I am. Have I answered the question? (52:00 to 56:44)

Professor Tour’s online talk is absolutely fascinating as well as being deeply moving on a personal level, and I would strongly urge readers to listen to his talk in its entirety – including the questions after the talk. You won’t regret it, I promise you. One interesting little gem of information which I’ll reveal is that it was Professor Tour who was largely instrumental in getting Nobel Laureate Richard Smalley, winner of the 1996 Nobel Prize in Chemistry, to reject Darwinian evolution and accept Old Earth creationism, shortly before he died in 2005. It was Tour who persuaded Smalley to delve into the question of origins. After reading the books “Origins of Life” and “Who Was Adam?”, written by Dr. Hugh Ross (an astrophysicist) and Dr. Fazale Rana (a biochemist).. Dr. Smalley explained his change of heart as follows:

Evolution has just been dealt its death blow. After reading “Origins of Life”, with my background in chemistry and physics, it is clear evolution could not have occurred. The new book, “Who Was Adam?”, is the silver bullet that puts the evolutionary model to death.

Strong words indeed, for a Nobel scientist. Readers can find out more about Professor Richard Smalley’s change of views here.

Why should we believe macroevolution, if nobody understands it?

Now that Professor Tour has informed the world that even Nobel Prize-winning scientists privately admit that they don’t understand macroevolution, a layperson is surely entitled to ask: “Well, if even they don’t understand it, then why should we believe it? How can we possibly be obliged to believe in a theory which nobody understands?”

That’s a good question. And it’s no use for Darwinists to trot out the standard “party line” that “even if we don’t yet understand how it happened, we still have enough evidence to infer that it happened.” At the very most, all that the current scientific evidence could establish is the common descent of living organisms. But that’s not macroevolution. Macroevolution requires more than a common ancestry for living organisms: it requires a natural mechanism which can generate the diversity of life-forms we see on Earth today from a common stock, without the need for any direction by an Intelligent Agent. But the mechanism is precisely what we don’t have evidence for. So the question remains: why should we believe in macroevolution?

The decline of academic freedom

Given the massive uncertainty about the “how” of macroevolution among scientists working in the field, you might think that a wide variety of views would be tolerated in the scientific arena – including the view that there is no such process as macroevolution. However, you would be sadly mistaken. As Professor Tour notes in his online article on evolution and creation, an alarming academic trend has emerged in recent years: a growing intolerance of dissent from Darwinism. This trend is so pronounced that Professor Tour now advises his students not to voice their doubts about Darwinism in public, if they want a successful career:

In the last few years I have seen a saddening progression at several institutions. I have witnessed unfair treatment upon scientists that do not accept macroevolutionary arguments and for their having signed the above-referenced statement regarding the examination of Darwinism. (I will comment no further regarding the specifics of the actions taken upon the skeptics; I love and honor my colleagues too much for that.) I never thought that science would have evolved like this. I deeply value the academy; teaching, professing and research in the university are my privileges and joys…

But my recent advice to my graduate students has been direct and revealing: If you disagree with Darwinian Theory, keep it to yourselves if you value your careers, unless, of course, you’re one of those champions for proclamation; I know that that fire exists in some, so be ready for lead-ridden limbs. But if the scientific community has taken these shots at senior faculty, it will not be comfortable for the young non-conformist. When the power-holders permit no contrary discussion, can a vibrant academy be maintained? Is there a University (unity in diversity)? For the United States, I pray that the scientific community and the National Academy in particular will investigate the disenfranchisement that is manifest upon some of their own, and thereby address the inequity.

It remains to be seen if other countries will allow their young scientists to think freely about the origin of life, and of the various species of organisms that we find on Earth today. What I will say, though, is that countries which restrict academic freedom will eventually be overtaken by countries which allow it to prosper. There is still time for America and Europe to throw off the dead hand of Darwinism in academic circles, and let their young people breathe the unaccustomed air of free speech once again.

(UPDATE: Here’s a link to my follow-up post, Macroevolution, microevolution and chemistry: the devil is in the details. It amply refutes the simplistic charge, made by some skeptics, that Professor Tour was conflating macroevolution with the question of the origin of life.)

UD Editors:  This post has received a great deal of attention lately, so we are moving it back to the front page.

Comments
"Organ Changes" are "macro" per Dr Tour in OP. Which means he does not understand how. No scientist does per Dr Tour.ppolish
March 6, 2014
March
03
Mar
6
06
2014
06:29 PM
6
06
29
PM
PDT
Every year we create a largely ineffective flu vaccine because of our totally blind ineptitude at understanding even the most basic of evolutionary observables. This is the stuff we actually CAN observe and test and we cannot even predict with complete accuracy forward 12 months! This is microevolution; and no one understands this fully. Perhaps, one day, maybe after another 50-100 years of data gathering we will be able to understand microevolution well enough to make flu vaccines that cover the majority of strains two years in advance. By then, perhaps, we will be able to stay several steps ahead of most pathogens. It's unlikely we will ever reach 100% accuracy, even on such an insignificantly pathetically finite speck of geological and cosmological timescale. In the meantime, macroevolution, the hyperbolic conjecture extrapolated backward over billions of years, based on something we cannot predict well in a twelve month period, is irrelevant. It isn't science. We can probe after it in a scientifIC manner. We feel compelled to inquire. But it is not scientia. So how about this: if there's someone out there who understands macroevolution and microevolution fully, figure out a cure for prion-infection and generate 100% effective vaccines; and, if anyone falls ill and dies despite your best efforts, you will hold yourself responsible in the criminal and civil cases against you. No takers? Figures. Hubris is so much easier when there's nothing on the line and you can waste taxpayer dollars arguing from your blog about the "truth" of spontaneous generation.jw777
March 6, 2014
March
03
Mar
6
06
2014
06:20 PM
6
06
20
PM
PDT
Joe, we were trying to discuss what dr. Tour would be able to explain to us, on a chemical/biochemical basis, given his claim to understand this in regard to microevolution. Regardless of what evolution can and cannot explain we observe differences in hemoglobin/oxygen binding properties in fish. Are these differences considered micro or macro according to design thinkers/IDists? If we can get past the hemoglobin issue maybe we can address the other observations and figure out if they are considered micro or macro. But this seems like a difficult topic for IDists to provide some simple categorization in regard to these observations for whatever reason.franklin
March 6, 2014
March
03
Mar
6
06
2014
06:11 PM
6
06
11
PM
PDT
sigh...kf posts this:
Franklin: There you go, again trying to pull off topic in misleading ways in toxic directions. I spoke to two incidents of cyber harassment targetting my family and tolerated at certain anti-ID sites: attempts to out names of family and to reveal my residential address
Yes, you say this has happened but when asked for the evidence that supports these allegations you fail to provide any. do you wonder why people dismiss this as nothing more than 'pearl clutching'? <blockquote.Just scroll up when you are finished with your worn out rhetorical pretences and notice that in micro cases we see minor genetic change often due to loss or breakdown of function typically late in embryonic development on;</blockquote. well you'll have to describe for me what is considered 'minor' genetic change versus 'major'? I'd hardly classify the microevolution of a Beta-lactamase as breaking something.
for proposed macro, what is needed is major origin of FSCO/I sufficient to create say a bony fish, or a major organ system such as wings or echolocation in bats and whales, etc.
so by this where does hemoglobin fit in? Is it macro or micro? Why is this question so difficult for design thinkers to answer?franklin
March 6, 2014
March
03
Mar
6
06
2014
06:04 PM
6
06
04
PM
PDT
franklin, let's start with the low-lying fruit- Blind watchmaker evolution cannot get beyond prokaryotes without relying on magical endosymbiotic events that turned engulfed prokaryotes into power plants instead of food. Is that still the best explanation for the nucleus or has that become a Jedi hand-wave? "You needn't concern yourself with the nucleus. Move along." The point being is when you talk about fish you are way ahead of yourself.Joe
March 6, 2014
March
03
Mar
6
06
2014
05:52 PM
5
05
52
PM
PDT
Franklin: There you go, again trying to pull off topic in misleading ways in toxic directions. I spoke to two incidents of cyber harassment targetting my family and tolerated at certain anti-ID sites: attempts to out names of family and to reveal my residential address. Instead of taking to heart the point that such is unacceptable behaviour -- verging on crimes, depending on jurisdiction -- you have indulged in further enabling. At least, this is plain before the watching world, and should trip pretty serious warning flags for sober minded people to see what is going on. I have already pointed out that the distinction between micro and macro evo is not mine, and that should be enough in light of definitions already given and examples. FYI, the definitions in a nutshell come from "that rabid IDiot" {NOT -- see, we know the typical vocabulary of school yard taunting that is too often used], Coyne. Just scroll up when you are finished with your worn out rhetorical pretences and notice that in micro cases we see minor genetic change often due to loss or breakdown of function typically late in embryonic development on; for proposed macro, what is needed is major origin of FSCO/I sufficient to create say a bony fish, or a major organ system such as wings or echolocation in bats and whales, etc. KFkairosfocus
March 6, 2014
March
03
Mar
6
06
2014
05:33 PM
5
05
33
PM
PDT
KF, a word of advice. If you don't want people to know your name don't link to places on the internet where you give your real name. If you don't want any information about you and yours to be 'findable' on the internet than don't post any personal information. If you and your family members post information, that you want to keep private, onto the internet than you should not be in the least surprised when other people find it. Pretty much everyone knows that once something is posted to the interwebs there are no take-backs. Now can we drop the issue of your family and move onto a discussion of what changes in fish are micro versus macro?franklin
March 6, 2014
March
03
Mar
6
06
2014
05:24 PM
5
05
24
PM
PDT
. As to attempts to pull my minor son into a discussion (on matters that imply further outing attempts I have hitherto been unaware of) in a context where I pointed out the attempts by openly hostile people to trumpet my residential address, speaks volumes.
errrr, kf, your family was not a topic of conversation up until the point that you brought them into the subject matter of this thread. If you don't want any discussion of your family then don't bring them into the conversation. Seems simple to me. As for your distinction that you posted on micro versus macro is that it? Design thinkers can go no further than that and cannot make any other determinations of what is and what is not micro versus macro changes in regard to fish and what we observe?franklin
March 6, 2014
March
03
Mar
6
06
2014
05:12 PM
5
05
12
PM
PDT
Franklin: I gave an example of a widely accepted and acknowledged distinction. As to attempts to pull my minor son into a discussion (on matters that imply further outing attempts I have hitherto been unaware of) in a context where I pointed out the attempts by openly hostile people to trumpet my residential address, speaks volumes. De higher de monkey climb . . . KFkairosfocus
March 6, 2014
March
03
Mar
6
06
2014
04:55 PM
4
04
55
PM
PDT
KF, so according to you micro involves changes in a gene as per your tomcod example. Hemoglobin is certainly a product of gene expression, Does the observed hemoglobin/oxygen affinities in fish represent micro changes or macro changes? Simple question that design thinkers should be able to provide with a one word answer...yes or no. KF, you know as well as I do that what I posted about your son and how you were alerted to his activities on the internet is true. If you think it is false post the link to what you take umbrage with in this regard. Mfranklin
March 6, 2014
March
03
Mar
6
06
2014
04:40 PM
4
04
40
PM
PDT
Onlookers: Franklin, corrected on heckling, has tried to double down. QED, KFkairosfocus
March 6, 2014
March
03
Mar
6
06
2014
04:27 PM
4
04
27
PM
PDT
Franklin: Strictly, I should now be sending you to Coventry for heckling and false accusation. I will forbear for the moment and give you a list with two items, one of which was already given:
i: Micro -- the adaptation of Tomcods in the Hudson to toxic environment by breakdown of a gene, or the similar origin of blind cave fish in Mexican caves. ii: Macro -- the original origin of bony fishes.
I note, that these examples are obvious and have been mentioned any number of times. KFkairosfocus
March 6, 2014
March
03
Mar
6
06
2014
04:26 PM
4
04
26
PM
PDT
KF:
Or, those who tried to reveal my residential address under similar circumstances?
You should be thanking the person who informed you (via the fever swamp) that your son was posting far more info on the internet than he should have been. They could have easily posted where your son did this (with all of the content and information) but instead they chose the higher road and informed you of his postings so you could deal with the situation. Nothing was revealed and for you to behave in such a matter should bring shame to you. Kf your rationalizations for censoring Dr. Matzke is nothing more than that......a rationalization for why you feel censorship is A-OK.franklin
March 6, 2014
March
03
Mar
6
06
2014
04:25 PM
4
04
25
PM
PDT
PS: To correct a distortion, the recently Dr Matzke (some time back, I was corrected going the other way, for addressing as Dr, I just learned of his promotion) slandered me a couple of months ago then popped up in a thread yesterday as if nothing happened. I instructed him he was on strike 2 and needed to make amends. He doubled down, and just as I warned, I deleted posts he made beyond that point, to call him to order. He and his ilk know that all he needs to do to return to threads I own is to simply make amends for a toxic false accusation. This, he obviously cannot bring himself to do. Unless and until he makes such amends, I will treat him as a disruptive heckler and will do the online equivalent of calling security to have him removed from premises he has worn out his welcome at through uncivil conduct. That is what Franklin and others are trying to label as censorship in order to smear me for standing up for civil conduct in the teeth of slander, and it shows the fundamental incivility and arrogant rudeness of such. Since Franklin knows or should know better than the smear he just tried to spread, that too is a second order slander. Franklin has just revealed himself as a heckler and enabler of heckling for the world to see.kairosfocus
March 6, 2014
March
03
Mar
6
06
2014
04:20 PM
4
04
20
PM
PDT
kf:
You know or should know, that “kind” or “baramin” are Creationist terms, they are not normally used by leading design thinkers, or in the logic of design theory
all well and all that but the subject of the OP is Dr. tour and hos understanding of the chemical basis for microevolution and his lack of understanding of macroevolution. Can you tell me, Kf, which of the observations I asked about are micor versus those which are considered macro in the various species of fish.....from an ID persepective of course. Start with a simple one: hemoglobin/oxygen interactions, i.e., sigmodicity versus hyperbolic dissociation curves as well as things like reverse temperature effects. Perhap, before tackling those questions you could present a list (partial if you like) of what is and what is not considered micro changes versus macro changes in fish?franklin
March 6, 2014
March
03
Mar
6
06
2014
04:15 PM
4
04
15
PM
PDT
Franklin: you just tried an ad hominem atmosphere-poisoning distractor to polarise and divert discussion instead of dealing with a key matter on its merits. You full well know that I gave a specific offer to host such an essay in toto, here at UD, and that it could freely be hosted elsewhere in parallel (I suggested TSZ). No censorship or manipulation of such a post would be feasible under such circumstances, so you are making a deliberate misrepresentation in the teeth of what you know or should know. It is also the case in describing showing hecklers and slanderers the door until they can find a civil tongue in their heads, as censorship. Shame on you. But then, this sort of diversion, twisting about, poisoning the atmosphere and making of threats is unfortunately all too common in the circles of toxic critics UD has had to deal with. For instance, should I take your behaviour just now as willful enabling of the sort of behaviour where some attempted to identify and publicly name my uninvolved wife and minor children? Or, those who tried to reveal my residential address under similar circumstances? I would suggest to you and ilk that leaving such information up and entertaining the sort of thug who does that IS enabling, and "freedom of expression" has limits of civility long before we come to libel and slander issues because there are ill willed, maladjusted bullies and crazies like that out there. KFkairosfocus
March 6, 2014
March
03
Mar
6
06
2014
04:06 PM
4
04
06
PM
PDT
stephen:
What makes you think that every fish is a member of one and only one kind and that each and every variety among fishes is a variation of that singular kind? Do you actually think that is the position you should be trying to attack?
If they aren't classified as fish what are they then? What classification system should I be using? As much detail as you can muster would be a great help to me undoerstanding your classification system for the various fishes. but if it makes you more comfortable just deal with the question I posed that apply to modern teleosts, i.e., retes, hemoglobin/oxygen affinities (including reverse temperature effects), and the variety of the air-breathing apparatus we find in teleosts.franklin
March 6, 2014
March
03
Mar
6
06
2014
04:05 PM
4
04
05
PM
PDT
Moreover when changes do happen to DNA they are now known to be ‘directed changes’ not ‘random changes’:
How life changes itself: the Read-Write (RW) genome. – 2013 Excerpt: Research dating back to the 1930s has shown that genetic change is the result of cell-mediated processes, not simply accidents or damage to the DNA. This cell-active view of genome change applies to all scales of DNA sequence variation, from point mutations to large-scale genome rearrangements and whole genome duplications (WGDs). This conceptual change to active cell inscriptions controlling RW genome functions has profound implications for all areas of the life sciences. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23876611 Shapiro on Random Mutation: “What I ask others interested in evolution to give up is the notion of random accidental mutation.” -huffingtonpost
Having ‘cell-mediated processes’ direct changes to DNA is in direct contradiction to the presupposition of 'randomness' which undergirds neo-Darwinian thought. Moreover, Natural Selection, that other great pillar upon which Darwinian evolution rests, has also been undermined as having the causal adequacy that neo-Darwinists have attributed to it. i.e. Natural Selection is grossly inadequate to do the work required of it because of what is termed ‘the princess and the pea’ paradox. The devastating ‘princess and the pea’ paradox is clearly elucidated by Dr. John Sanford, at the 8:14 minute mark, of this following video,,,
Genetic Entropy – Dr. John Sanford – Evolution vs. Reality – video http://vimeo.com/35088933
Dr. Sanford points out, in the preceding video, that Natural Selection acts at the coarse level of the entire organism (phenotype) and yet the vast majority of mutations have effects that are only ‘slightly detrimental’, and have no noticeable effect on phenotypes, and are thus far below the power of Natural Selection to remove from genomes before they spread throughout the population. Here are a few more details on this insurmountable ‘princess and the pea’ problem for natural selection:
Evolution Vs Genetic Entropy (Kimura’s Distribution)– Andy McIntosh – video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4028086/ The GS Principle (The Genetic Selection Principle) – Abel – 2009 Excerpt: The GS Principle, sometimes called “The 2nd Law of Biology,” states that selection must occur at the molecular/genetic level, not just at the fittest phenotypic/organismic level, to produce and explain life.,,, Natural selection cannot operate at the genetic level. http://www.bioscience.org/2009/v14/af/3426/fulltext.htm
Moreover, as if that were not devastating enough as to undermining any credibility Natural Selection might have had as to providing the causal adequacy to explain the highly integrated levels of overlapping functional information being found in organisms, dimensionally speaking, Natural Selection is now known to not even be on the right playing field in the first place:
The predominance of quarter-power (4-D) scaling in biology Excerpt: Many fundamental characteristics of organisms scale with body size as power laws of the form: Y = Yo M^b, where Y is some characteristic such as metabolic rate, stride length or life span, Yo is a normalization constant, M is body mass and b is the allometric scaling exponent. A longstanding puzzle in biology is why the exponent b is usually some simple multiple of 1/4 (4-Dimensional scaling) rather than a multiple of 1/3, as would be expected from Euclidean (3-Dimensional) scaling. http://www.nceas.ucsb.edu/~drewa/pubs/savage_v_2004_f18_257.pdf “Although living things occupy a three-dimensional space, their internal physiology and anatomy operate as if they were four-dimensional. Quarter-power scaling laws are perhaps as universal and as uniquely biological as the biochemical pathways of metabolism, the structure and function of the genetic code and the process of natural selection.,,, The conclusion here is inescapable, that the driving force for these invariant scaling laws cannot have been natural selection.” Jerry Fodor and Massimo Piatelli-Palmarini, What Darwin Got Wrong (London: Profile Books, 2010), p. 78-79
Here is a, according to a Darwinist, ‘horrendously complex’ 4-D metabolic pathway chart:
ExPASy - Biochemical Pathways - interactive schematic http://web.expasy.org/cgi-bin/pathways/show_thumbnails.pl
i.e. Dimensionally speaking, Natural Selection is not even on the right playing field so as to do the work required of it. The reason why a ‘higher dimensional’ 4-Dimensional structure would be completely invisible to a 3-Dimensional process, such as Natural Selection, is best illustrated by ‘flatland’:
Flatland – 3D to 4D shift – Dr. Quantum – video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWyTxCsIXE4
I personally hold that the reason why internal physiology and anatomy operate as if they were four-dimensional instead of three dimensional is because of exactly what Darwinian evolution has consistently failed to explain the origination of. i.e. functional information. ‘Higher dimensional’ information, which is bursting at the seams in life, simply cannot be reduced to any 3-dimensional energy-matter basis:
Information and entropy – top-down or bottom-up development in living systems? Excerpt: This paper highlights the distinctive and non-material nature of information and its relationship with matter, energy and natural forces. It is proposed in conclusion that it is the non-material information (transcendent to the matter and energy) that is actually itself constraining the local thermodynamics to be in ordered disequilibrium and with specified raised free energy levels necessary for the molecular and cellular machinery to operate. A.C. McINTOSH - Dr Andy C. McIntosh is the Professor of Thermodynamics Combustion Theory at the University of Leeds. (the highest teaching/research rank in U.K. university hierarchy) http://journals.witpress.com/paperinfo.asp?pid=420
Verse and Music:
John 1:1-4 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. Natalie Grant - Your Great Name - live https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRREa_pQFcs
bornagain77
March 6, 2014
March
03
Mar
6
06
2014
04:00 PM
4
04
00
PM
PDT
kf as to your request:
,,,you must provide thesis and observation based evidence,,,
Clearly you just don't understand evolution kf! :) But seriously, I would be happy if Darwinists could just prove that their theory belongs in the province of science in the first place: Darwinism is a Pseudo-Science - Part II What the vast majority of Darwinists fail to realize (or ever honestly admit to) is that Darwinian evolution is not even a 'real' physical science in any proper sense in the first place but that Darwinian evolution is more realistically thought of as a pseudo-science. Even Jerry Coyne himself, the self-appointed Grand Inquisitor of Darwinian evolution, admits that Darwinian evolution lacks the rigor of a proper physical science:
“In science’s pecking order, evolutionary biology lurks somewhere near the bottom, far closer to phrenology than to physics. For evolutionary biology is a historical science, laden with history’s inevitable imponderables. We evolutionary biologists cannot generate a Cretaceous Park to observe exactly what killed the dinosaurs; and, unlike “harder” scientists, we usually cannot resolve issues with a simple experiment, such as adding tube A to tube B and noting the color of the mixture.” - Jerry A. Coyne – Of Vice and Men, The New Republic April 3, 2000 p.27 - professor of Darwinian evolution at the University of Chicago
The main reason why Darwinian evolution is more properly thought of as a pseudo-science instead of a proper science is because Darwinian evolution has no rigid mathematical basis, like other overarching physical theories of science do. A rigid mathematical basis in order to potentially falsify it (in fact, in so far as math can be applied to Darwinian claims, math constantly shows us the Darwinian evolution is astronomically unlikely),,
“On the other hand, I disagree that Darwin’s theory is as `solid as any explanation in science.; Disagree? I regard the claim as preposterous. Quantum electrodynamics is accurate to thirteen or so decimal places; so, too, general relativity. A leaf trembling in the wrong way would suffice to shatter either theory. What can Darwinian theory offer in comparison?” (Berlinski, D., “A Scientific Scandal?: David Berlinski & Critics,” Commentary, July 8, 2003) Oxford University Seeks Mathemagician — May 5th, 2011 by Douglas Axe Excerpt: “Grand theories in physics are usually expressed in mathematics. Newton’s mechanics and Einstein’s theory of special relativity are essentially equations. Words are needed only to interpret the terms. Darwin’s theory of evolution by natural selection has obstinately remained in words since 1859.”… http://biologicinstitute.org/2011/05/05/oxford-university-seeks-mathemagician/ Active Information in Metabiology – Winston Ewert, William A. Dembski, Robert J. Marks II – 2013 Except page 9: Chaitin states [3], “For many years I have thought that it is a mathematical scandal that we do not have proof that Darwinian evolution works.” In fact, mathematics has consistently demonstrated that undirected Darwinian evolution does not work. http://bio-complexity.org/ojs/index.php/main/article/view/BIO-C.2013.4/BIO-C.2013.4 HISTORY OF EVOLUTIONARY THEORY – WISTAR DESTROYS EVOLUTION Excerpt: A number of mathematicians, familiar with the biological problems, spoke at that 1966 Wistar Institute,, For example, Murray Eden showed that it would be impossible for even a single ordered pair of genes to be produced by DNA mutations in the bacteria, E. coli,—with 5 billion years in which to produce it! His estimate was based on 5 trillion tons of the bacteria covering the planet to a depth of nearly an inch during that 5 billion years. He then explained that the genes of E. coli contain over a trillion (10^12) bits of data. That is the number 10 followed by 12 zeros. *Eden then showed the mathematical impossibility of protein forming by chance. http://www.pathlights.com/ce_encyclopedia/Encyclopedia/20hist12.htm Darwin’s Doubt – Chapter 12 – Complex Adaptations and the Neo-Darwinian Math – Dr. Paul Giem – video http://behe.uncommondescent.com/2010/12/the-first-rule-of-adaptive-evolution/ See also Mendel's Accountant and Haldane's Ratchet: John Sanford
Another primary reason why Darwinian evolution is more realistically thought of as a pseudo-science rather than a proper physical science is that Darwinian evolution does not have a demonstrated empirical basis to support its claims (in fact empirical evidence also consistently shows us that Darwinian evolution is astronomically unlikely),,
“The First Rule of Adaptive Evolution”: Break or blunt any functional coded element whose loss would yield a net fitness gain – Michael Behe – December 2010 Excerpt: In its most recent issue The Quarterly Review of Biology has published a review by myself of laboratory evolution experiments of microbes going back four decades.,,, The gist of the paper is that so far the overwhelming number of adaptive (that is, helpful) mutations seen in laboratory evolution experiments are either loss or modification of function. Of course we had already known that the great majority of mutations that have a visible effect on an organism are deleterious. Now, surprisingly, it seems that even the great majority of helpful mutations degrade the genome to a greater or lesser extent.,,, I dub it “The First Rule of Adaptive Evolution”: Break or blunt any functional coded element whose loss would yield a net fitness gain. http://behe.uncommondescent.com/2010/12/the-first-rule-of-adaptive-evolution/ Where’s the substantiating evidence for neo-Darwinism? https://docs.google.com/document/d/1q-PBeQELzT4pkgxB2ZOxGxwv6ynOixfzqzsFlCJ9jrw/edit Waiting Longer for Two Mutations – Michael J. Behe Excerpt: Citing malaria literature sources (White 2004) I had noted that the de novo appearance of chloroquine resistance in Plasmodium falciparum was an event of probability of 1 in 10^20. I then wrote that ‘for humans to achieve a mutation like this by chance, we would have to wait 100 million times 10 million years’ (1 quadrillion years)(Behe 2007) (because that is the extrapolated time that it would take to produce 10^20 humans). Durrett and Schmidt (2008, p. 1507) retort that my number ‘is 5 million times larger than the calculation we have just given’ using their model (which nonetheless “using their model” gives a prohibitively long waiting time of 216 million years). Their criticism compares apples to oranges. My figure of 10^20 is an empirical statistic from the literature; it is not, as their calculation is, a theoretical estimate from a population genetics model. http://www.discovery.org/a/9461 Don’t Mess With ID (Overview of Behe’s ‘Edge of Evolution’ and Durrett and Schmidt’s paper at the 20:00 minute mark) – Paul Giem – video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JeYJ29-I7o
Another reason why Darwinian evolution is more realistically thought of as a pseudo-science rather than a proper physical science is that the two foundational pillars of Darwinian evolution, Random Mutation/Variation and Natural Selection, are both now shown to be severely compromised as to having the causal adequacy that Darwinists have presupposed for them. For instance, although Darwinian evolution appeals to ‘random mutations/variations’ to DNA as the main creative source for all evolutionary novelty, there are now known to be extensive layers of error correction in the cell to protect against any “random changes” happening to DNA in the first place:
The Evolutionary Dynamics of Digital and Nucleotide Codes: A Mutation Protection Perspective – February 2011 Excerpt: “Unbounded random change of nucleotide codes through the accumulation of irreparable, advantageous, code-expanding, inheritable mutations at the level of individual nucleotides, as proposed by evolutionary theory, requires the mutation protection at the level of the individual nucleotides and at the higher levels of the code to be switched off or at least to dysfunction. Dysfunctioning mutation protection, however, is the origin of cancer and hereditary diseases, which reduce the capacity to live and to reproduce. Our mutation protection perspective of the evolutionary dynamics of digital and nucleotide codes thus reveals the presence of a paradox in evolutionary theory between the necessity and the disadvantage of dysfunctioning mutation protection. This mutation protection paradox, which is closely related with the paradox between evolvability and mutational robustness, needs further investigation.” http://www.arn.org/blogs/index.php/literature/2011/04/26/dna_repair_mechanisms_reveal_a_contradic
bornagain77
March 6, 2014
March
03
Mar
6
06
2014
03:59 PM
3
03
59
PM
PDT
franklin, What makes you think that every fish is a member of one and only one kind and that each and every variety among fishes is a variation of that singular kind? Do you actually think that is the position you should be trying to attack? It is prudent to understand your adversary's actual position so as not to make yourself to appear the fool. When someone appears to be a fool, there is a tendency to dismiss everything that someone has to say, whether it has merit or not. Since you incorrectly start with all fishes being of one kind, all that follows in #289 is gibberish. StephenSteRusJon
March 6, 2014
March
03
Mar
6
06
2014
03:55 PM
3
03
55
PM
PDT
Franklin, kindly lay off the talking points loaded with "Creationism in a cheap tuxedo" insinuations. You know or should know, that "kind" or "baramin" are Creationist terms, they are not normally used by leading design thinkers, or in the logic of design theory. What design thinkers characteristically discuss is accounting for the origin of functionally specific complex organisation and/or associated information [let's abbreviate, FSCO/I, a subset of the complex specified information discussed by Orgel and Wicken in the 1970's], including the particular case of irreducible complexity. In that context, the issues operate at levels that run well past the Family level. For instance over the past year -- through publishing Darwin's Doubt -- Meyer has put on the table the issue of the Cambrian fossil life revolution, which operates at the level of phyla and subphyla. The info challenge implied in this can be seen from the quantum of info to provide a credible minimal genome for a unicellular first common ancestor, 100 - 1,000 k bits, half that in 4-state bases. Then, to get to reasonable estimates on body plans, we are looking at 10 - 100 mn bits each, dozens of times over. Where the search space for just 500 bits relative to the number of Chemical fast reaction time events the 10^57 atoms of our solar system can carry out in 10^17 s, is as one straw to a cubical haystack 1,000 light years on the side . . . about as thick as our galaxy's central bulge. In short a blind chance and/or necessity driven search on that scope cannot reasonably find isolated islands of function, and the need for many well matched properly arranged and coupled parts will impose just such isolated islands of function. Scale up to 1,000 bits and the config space to a straw representing the search capacity of the 10^80 atoms of our observed cosmos would be trillions of times bigger than that observed cosmos. That is, the search resources impose a needle in haystack challenge on steroids. That easily explains why with extreme reliability in a world full of FSCO/I, we uniformly see it resulting from intelligent design. And design theory is that research programme in science that investigates such empirical signs of design. The consequence of which discovery of reliable signs is, cell based life is designed, and major body plans and key features such as our own bodies show, are credibly designed. That is what is on the table, and that is what you need to cogently address. For instance, how, per empirical evidence of gradual transitions and feasible intermediates, do you explain the body plan of bony fishes on blind chance variations cumulatively culled out by differential reproductive success? FYI, we are already doing genetic engineering in labs all over the world. Not yet to this level but we have no reason to believe intelligence and diligent effort cannot do the equivalent. What actual observations can you provide as vera causa basis for ascribing such engineering feats to blind chance and mechanical necessity? KFkairosfocus
March 6, 2014
March
03
Mar
6
06
2014
03:54 PM
3
03
54
PM
PDT
I tend to think these past eighteen months of effective refusal to take up such an offer of a free kick at goal tell us volumes.
yes, it does speak volumes that the environment here is not conducive to uncensored/unmodified responses. IOW, no one trust you...just look at your (Kf) recent censoring of Dr. Matzke.s responses and your subsequent modification of one of his posts....yes, Kf, it does speak volumes. It also speaks volumes that you refuse to engage those you wish to engage in a forum where they (and you) are free to make uncensored points/opinions. You are either against censorship or you are not. Apparently, given your actions and your requests that others be censored elsewhere puts you in the "yes I approve of censorship' category.franklin
March 6, 2014
March
03
Mar
6
06
2014
03:30 PM
3
03
30
PM
PDT
PS: Before playing dismissive rhetoric games on how OOL is different from Evolution, I suggest you examine the "Modern" Tree of Life from Smithsonian that appears in the linked OP. Likewise before you try the tactic of trying to dismiss use of the terms Macro and micro evolution, etc., I suggest you check the UD weak argument correctives under the resources tab on this and every UD page, at the top. Just scroll up. Similarly, you may wish to look at VJT's follow-up post on that topic, here. His comment on eye evolution, here, may also help. You may also want to look at P Z Myers's "cop-out" remark here.kairosfocus
March 6, 2014
March
03
Mar
6
06
2014
03:26 PM
3
03
26
PM
PDT
so, Joe, in your opinion what, in the fish kind, qualifies as macroevolutionary versus microevolutionary changes? to help you answer is the development of a swimbladder from a lung considered micro or macro? Is the changes in hemoglobin oxygen binding properties micro or macro? is the changes in rete function from heat exchange to swim bladder considered micro or macro? you could also address the other examples I provided as to their classification of micro versus macro from an ID perspective.franklin
March 6, 2014
March
03
Mar
6
06
2014
03:19 PM
3
03
19
PM
PDT
F/N: As this thread is again active, let me clip here on the open invitation to anyDarwinist in the world to post a cogent survey of the Darwinist case on the merits that has been on the table here at UD since the Autumnal Equinox, 2012, and which I attached to my post commenting on the surge in this post:
provide a 6,000 word feature-length article that justifies the Darwinist tree of life from its OOL roots up through the Cambrian revo — as in Darwin’s Doubt territory — and other major formation of body plans up to and including our own origins, and we will host it here at UD, one of the leading ID blogs in the world. We are perfectly willing to host a parallel post with another site. Only, you must provide thesis and observation based evidence that solidly justifies your conclusions in light of inference to best explanation, the vera causa principle and other basic principles of sound scientific induction. Also, you must actually argue the case in outline, a summing up if you will. You must strive to avoid Lewontin’s a priori evolutionary materialism, and if you would redefine science on such terms you will have to reasonably justify why that is not a question-begging definition, in a way that is historically and philosophically soundly informed. Of course, you may link sources elsewhere, but you must engage the task of providing a coherent, non-question-begging, cogent argument in summary at the level of a feature-length serious magazine article . . . no literature bluffs in short.
(You may find the just linked OP helpful in setting in context.) A sound response of course would also answer to Dr Tour's question. Feel free to link onwards, but the case needs to be made in essence in a feature length article. KF PS: Let's say that NCSE's former publicist has been doubtless aware of this challenge since 2012, but along with many others in the penumbra of design critics that surround UD, he too has refused a free kick at goal. I tend to think these past eighteen months of effective refusal to take up such an offer of a free kick at goal tell us volumes.kairosfocus
March 6, 2014
March
03
Mar
6
06
2014
03:10 PM
3
03
10
PM
PDT
franklin= From Jerry Coyne:
“MACROEVOLUTION: ‘Major’ evolutionary change, usually thought of as large changes in body form or the evolution of one type of plant or animal from another type. The change from our primate ancestor to modern humans, or from early reptiles to birds, would be considered macroevolution. “MICROEVOLUTION: ‘Minor’ evolutionary change, such as the change in size or color of a species. One example is the evolution of different skin colors or hair types among human populations; another is the evolution of antibiotic resistance in bacteria.”
Joe
March 6, 2014
March
03
Mar
6
06
2014
03:06 PM
3
03
06
PM
PDT
vjt quotes Dr. Tour as stating this: blockquote>Now, I understand microevolution, I really do. We do this all the time in the lab. now I will assume (and someone correct me if they feel I'm wrong) that Dr. Tour is using the term 'microevolution' as most ID proponents do, i.e., change within a kind. In this light perhaps VJT or BA77 could contact Dr. Tour and ask him to provide his understanding of the chemical basis for the changes we observe in fish......how did a jawless fish change into a jawed fish (or vice versus if you like), or how a swim bladder developed from a lung or even how the fish lung developed from their 'in kind' relatives which had no lung? If Dr. tour does show up to address these 'microevoluionary' changes I have several more examples from the fish 'kind' that would be great to have him explain, e.g., the chemical basis for the development of the various retes we observe in fish...from swim bladder inflation, brain heaters, to eyeball warmers all observed in the fish 'kind'. Reverse temperature effect in some fishes hemoglobin would also be a great topic for him to explain on a chemical basis as would the development of the various air-breathing apparatus that we observe in the fish 'kind'. I eagerly await his arrival as I have dozens of these examples of microevolution that he could provide the chemical/biochemical explanation to all of us.franklin
March 6, 2014
March
03
Mar
6
06
2014
02:56 PM
2
02
56
PM
PDT
cosmic egg:
What does that mean? What implications for the advancement of science does that have?
For one it says that there is more to living organisms than matter, energy and what emerges from their interactions. Meaning information is immaterial, real and what actually guides the processes and also what makes an organism what it is. The information is not the DNA sequence nor the genome. Secondly it would tell us there is a purpose to our existence, as opposed to our existence being just because.Joe
March 6, 2014
March
03
Mar
6
06
2014
02:48 PM
2
02
48
PM
PDT
I caught this on facebook, I see Torley is finally getting some air time. My grandfather used to say cream rises. I'm not sure if it does but I know Torley is a beast.junkdnathewhite
March 6, 2014
March
03
Mar
6
06
2014
02:42 PM
2
02
42
PM
PDT
Egg's comment, in paraphrase, “if the creator existed I would not like him; therefore he does not exist” is a non sequitur. Period! Part and parcel of the arsenal of equivocation, ad hominem, misrepresentations etc. I just wonder who Egg is trying to convince. Us or himself? His gambit had no impact on me. Did it make him feel better? StephenSteRusJon
March 6, 2014
March
03
Mar
6
06
2014
02:17 PM
2
02
17
PM
PDT
1 5 6 7 8 9 17

Leave a Reply