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A world-famous chemist tells the truth: there’s no scientist alive today who understands macroevolution

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Professor James M. Tour is one of the ten most cited chemists in the world. He is famous for his work on nanocars (pictured above, courtesy of Wikipedia), nanoelectronics, graphene nanostructures, carbon nanovectors in medicine, and green carbon research for enhanced oil recovery and environmentally friendly oil and gas extraction. He is currently a Professor of Chemistry, Professor of Computer Science, and Professor of Mechanical Engineering and Materials Science at Rice University. He has authored or co-authored 489 scientific publications and his name is on 36 patents. Although he does not regard himself as an Intelligent Design theorist, Professor Tour, along with over 700 other scientists, took the courageous step back in 2001 of signing the Discovery Institute’s “A Scientific Dissent from Darwinism”, which read: “We are skeptical of claims for the ability of random mutation and natural selection to account for the complexity of life. Careful examination of the evidence for Darwinian theory should be encouraged.”

On Professor Tour’s Website, there’s a very revealing article on evolution and creation, in which Tour bluntly states that he does not understand how macroevolution could have happened, from a chemical standpoint (all bold emphases below are mine – VJT):

Although most scientists leave few stones unturned in their quest to discern mechanisms before wholeheartedly accepting them, when it comes to the often gross extrapolations between observations and conclusions on macroevolution, scientists, it seems to me, permit unhealthy leeway. When hearing such extrapolations in the academy, when will we cry out, “The emperor has no clothes!”?

…I simply do not understand, chemically, how macroevolution could have happened. Hence, am I not free to join the ranks of the skeptical and to sign such a statement without reprisals from those that disagree with me? … Does anyone understand the chemical details behind macroevolution? If so, I would like to sit with that person and be taught, so I invite them to meet with me.

In a more recent talk, entitled, Nanotech and Jesus Christ, given on 1 November 2012 at Georgia Tech, Professor Tour went further, and declared that no scientist that he has spoken to understands macroevolution – and that includes Nobel Prize winners! Here’s what he said when a student in the audience asked him about evolution:

I will tell you as a scientist and a synthetic chemist: if anybody should be able to understand evolution, it is me, because I make molecules for a living, and I don’t just buy a kit, and mix this and mix this, and get that. I mean, ab initio, I make molecules. I understand how hard it is to make molecules. I understand that if I take Nature’s tool kit, it could be much easier, because all the tools are already there, and I just mix it in the proportions, and I do it under these conditions, but ab initio is very, very hard.

I don’t understand evolution, and I will confess that to you. Is that OK, for me to say, “I don’t understand this”? Is that all right? I know that there’s a lot of people out there that don’t understand anything about organic synthesis, but they understand evolution. I understand a lot about making molecules; I don’t understand evolution. And you would just say that, wow, I must be really unusual.

Let me tell you what goes on in the back rooms of science – with National Academy members, with Nobel Prize winners. I have sat with them, and when I get them alone, not in public – because it’s a scary thing, if you say what I just said – I say, “Do you understand all of this, where all of this came from, and how this happens?” Every time that I have sat with people who are synthetic chemists, who understand this, they go “Uh-uh. Nope.” These people are just so far off, on how to believe this stuff came together. I’ve sat with National Academy members, with Nobel Prize winners. Sometimes I will say, “Do you understand this?”And if they’re afraid to say “Yes,” they say nothing. They just stare at me, because they can’t sincerely do it.

I was once brought in by the Dean of the Department, many years ago, and he was a chemist. He was kind of concerned about some things. I said, “Let me ask you something. You’re a chemist. Do you understand this? How do you get DNA without a cell membrane? And how do you get a cell membrane without a DNA? And how does all this come together from this piece of jelly?” We have no idea, we have no idea. I said, “Isn’t it interesting that you, the Dean of science, and I, the chemistry professor, can talk about this quietly in your office, but we can’t go out there and talk about this?”

If you understand evolution, I am fine with that. I’m not going to try to change you – not at all. In fact, I wish I had the understanding that you have.

But about seven or eight years ago I posted on my Web site that I don’t understand. And I said, “I will buy lunch for anyone that will sit with me and explain to me evolution, and I won’t argue with you until I don’t understand something – I will ask you to clarify. But you can’t wave by and say, “This enzyme does that.” You’ve got to get down in the details of where molecules are built, for me. Nobody has come forward.

The Atheist Society contacted me. They said that they will buy the lunch, and they challenged the Atheist Society, “Go down to Houston and have lunch with this guy, and talk to him.” Nobody has come! Now remember, because I’m just going to ask, when I stop understanding what you’re talking about, I will ask. So I sincerely want to know. I would like to believe it. But I just can’t.

Now, I understand microevolution, I really do. We do this all the time in the lab. I understand this. But when you have speciation changes, when you have organs changing, when you have to have concerted lines of evolution, all happening in the same place and time – not just one line – concerted lines, all at the same place, all in the same environment … this is very hard to fathom.

I was in Israel not too long ago, talking with a bio-engineer, and [he was] describing to me the ear, and he was studying the different changes in the modulus of the ear, and I said, “How does this come about?” And he says, “Oh, Jim, you know, we all believe in evolution, but we have no idea how it happened.” Now there’s a good Jewish professor for you. I mean, that’s what it is. So that’s where I am. Have I answered the question? (52:00 to 56:44)

Professor Tour’s online talk is absolutely fascinating as well as being deeply moving on a personal level, and I would strongly urge readers to listen to his talk in its entirety – including the questions after the talk. You won’t regret it, I promise you. One interesting little gem of information which I’ll reveal is that it was Professor Tour who was largely instrumental in getting Nobel Laureate Richard Smalley, winner of the 1996 Nobel Prize in Chemistry, to reject Darwinian evolution and accept Old Earth creationism, shortly before he died in 2005. It was Tour who persuaded Smalley to delve into the question of origins. After reading the books “Origins of Life” and “Who Was Adam?”, written by Dr. Hugh Ross (an astrophysicist) and Dr. Fazale Rana (a biochemist).. Dr. Smalley explained his change of heart as follows:

Evolution has just been dealt its death blow. After reading “Origins of Life”, with my background in chemistry and physics, it is clear evolution could not have occurred. The new book, “Who Was Adam?”, is the silver bullet that puts the evolutionary model to death.

Strong words indeed, for a Nobel scientist. Readers can find out more about Professor Richard Smalley’s change of views here.

Why should we believe macroevolution, if nobody understands it?

Now that Professor Tour has informed the world that even Nobel Prize-winning scientists privately admit that they don’t understand macroevolution, a layperson is surely entitled to ask: “Well, if even they don’t understand it, then why should we believe it? How can we possibly be obliged to believe in a theory which nobody understands?”

That’s a good question. And it’s no use for Darwinists to trot out the standard “party line” that “even if we don’t yet understand how it happened, we still have enough evidence to infer that it happened.” At the very most, all that the current scientific evidence could establish is the common descent of living organisms. But that’s not macroevolution. Macroevolution requires more than a common ancestry for living organisms: it requires a natural mechanism which can generate the diversity of life-forms we see on Earth today from a common stock, without the need for any direction by an Intelligent Agent. But the mechanism is precisely what we don’t have evidence for. So the question remains: why should we believe in macroevolution?

The decline of academic freedom

Given the massive uncertainty about the “how” of macroevolution among scientists working in the field, you might think that a wide variety of views would be tolerated in the scientific arena – including the view that there is no such process as macroevolution. However, you would be sadly mistaken. As Professor Tour notes in his online article on evolution and creation, an alarming academic trend has emerged in recent years: a growing intolerance of dissent from Darwinism. This trend is so pronounced that Professor Tour now advises his students not to voice their doubts about Darwinism in public, if they want a successful career:

In the last few years I have seen a saddening progression at several institutions. I have witnessed unfair treatment upon scientists that do not accept macroevolutionary arguments and for their having signed the above-referenced statement regarding the examination of Darwinism. (I will comment no further regarding the specifics of the actions taken upon the skeptics; I love and honor my colleagues too much for that.) I never thought that science would have evolved like this. I deeply value the academy; teaching, professing and research in the university are my privileges and joys…

But my recent advice to my graduate students has been direct and revealing: If you disagree with Darwinian Theory, keep it to yourselves if you value your careers, unless, of course, you’re one of those champions for proclamation; I know that that fire exists in some, so be ready for lead-ridden limbs. But if the scientific community has taken these shots at senior faculty, it will not be comfortable for the young non-conformist. When the power-holders permit no contrary discussion, can a vibrant academy be maintained? Is there a University (unity in diversity)? For the United States, I pray that the scientific community and the National Academy in particular will investigate the disenfranchisement that is manifest upon some of their own, and thereby address the inequity.

It remains to be seen if other countries will allow their young scientists to think freely about the origin of life, and of the various species of organisms that we find on Earth today. What I will say, though, is that countries which restrict academic freedom will eventually be overtaken by countries which allow it to prosper. There is still time for America and Europe to throw off the dead hand of Darwinism in academic circles, and let their young people breathe the unaccustomed air of free speech once again.

(UPDATE: Here’s a link to my follow-up post, Macroevolution, microevolution and chemistry: the devil is in the details. It amply refutes the simplistic charge, made by some skeptics, that Professor Tour was conflating macroevolution with the question of the origin of life.)

UD Editors:  This post has received a great deal of attention lately, so we are moving it back to the front page.

Comments
SteRusJon
My main reason for posting follows from a little investigation of the subject of hemoglobin in teleost fishes. I went out on the internet and found a paper entitled “Whole-genome duplication and the functional diversification of teleost fish hemoglobins.”
yes, many fish are polyploid and some species (e.g., green sturgeon) have chromosome numbers ranging from 4-8n with a closly related species having 16n. Does this then mean that the observed variation in hemoglobin/oxygen binding properties is representative of micro or macro evolution from a ID perspective. I'm really surprised that this is posing such a dilemma for ID proponents to answer.
I suspect that this is an important foundation for your “grenade” lobbed into he ID strongholds. If not, it really does not matter since I am sure you could trot out a number of similar studies.
I had no idea that asking about hemoglobin/oxygen binding properties in fish being representative of micro or macro evolution from a ID perspective would be considered 'lobbing a hand grenade' into a discussion. I thought it would be a fairly trivial issue and once established the conversation could move on. Evidently, I was mistaken and this issue has really stumped the IDists. I've read how ID is fine with evolution and all that and that even YEC are OK with micro evolution. Now I'm wondering what this could be based on considering that such a simple question has no answer from theID camp. How do IDers recognize micro versus macro (outside of it being known as ppolish has claimed)?
There is one other important pattern that I identified in the paper. There is not a single teleost fish noted in the paper that lacks a functioning version of the hemoglobin gene
must not have mentioned ice fish which have no hemoglobin or erythrocytes. IS that a micro or macro evolutionary event from a ID perspective, i.e., a teleost lacking red blood cells and hemoglobin? SteRusJon, you wrote a lot of words but nowhere do I see a definitive answer as to what is and is not a micro versus macro evolutionary event regarding teleost (or just fish) hemoglobin and the variety of oxygen binding properties observed in these species. Could you state your position on this issue?franklin
March 7, 2014
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Mung, great quote. And what a load of nonsense (the first two sentences). Probably the third sentence is true, particularly since so many biologists think evolution is able to create highly-coordinated, functionally-integrated, information-rich systems. Which it can't.Eric Anderson
March 7, 2014
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Not that it matters to Nick, but:
Evolution is the cornerstone of modern biology. It unites all the fields of biology under one theoretical umbrella. It is not a difficult concept, but very few people -- the majority of biologists included -- have a satisfactory grasp of it.
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-intro-to-biology.htmlMung
March 7, 2014
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Franklin (328), "How would we know what would have been discussed?" We don't need to know what is being discussed. We only need to know if, after the discussion, Mr. Nye is willing to include Dr. Tour when he declare that those who don't buy neo-Darwinian evolution are not qualified to be scientists, engineers (or even voters.) It is this bombastic statement on Mr. Nye's part that needs to be challenged.Moose Dr
March 7, 2014
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It is interesting that hemoglobin and chlorophyll have tantalizingly similar chemical architectures, the primary difference being the incorporation of the elements of Fe vs. Mg. Common design, or common ancestor, or both? Either way, a very potent cybernetic unit.littlejohn
March 7, 2014
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franklin, A preliminary point. By your use of the word "kind" in the context of a Christian's, Dr. Tour specifically, understandings of the concepts of micro- and macro-evolution, I presumed you were trying to tie your "case studies" to Christian creationism's (YEC especially) baraminology. I have no idea what Br. Tour's views are in that regard. I doubt that you do either. I do think, by using "kind" you are conflating the position of a subset of the ID tent with the position of all of it. There is more I could say about baraminology, but I will leave it at that. For the present at least. My main reason for posting follows from a little investigation of the subject of hemoglobin in teleost fishes. I went out on the internet and found a paper entitled "Whole-genome duplication and the functional diversification of teleost fish hemoglobins." I suspect that this is an important foundation for your "grenade" lobbed into he ID strongholds. If not, it really does not matter since I am sure you could trot out a number of similar studies. I will be honest and state up front that I have not read and comprehended all the paper has to say. I will, however, venture a few comments on what I take from the paper and how it fits within the IDist's, at least my own IDist, perspective regarding micro- vs. macro- evolution. The paper points out the presence of multiple variations of the hemoglobin gene within species of teleost fishes as well as the differences in those gene copies when compared to other teleost species and even non-teleost species. That is the data. None of that is surprising to or denied by any IDist, not even a member of the baraminolgical creationism subset of the ID tent. The issue is the interpretation of that data. The paper's authors attribute the pattern to common decent of "stuff happening" during the reproductive process. In point of fact, most IDist would not likely deny the pattern exists. We may question that similar analysis of different genes within the teleost fishes will all generate a compatible pattern. If it did, there is still no problem, as the IDist, even of the baraminologist type, accepts at least some common decent. The real issue is the "stuff happening" part. Now we do not assert that "stuff does not happen". Rather, the IDist asserts that sometimes "stuff happens for a reason." By that I mean, there is an inherent capability designed into the holistic makeup of organisms to be adaptive and generate genomic changes during the reproduction process. In addition, we see the organism to be designed to be fault tolerant. We also recognize that when "bad stuff happens" that sometimes an individual may be able to make some lemonade and manage to make do in spite of the lemons. You see, all of these situations are micro-evolution. They are all examples of variations of the functioning hemoglobin gene being exploited for the benefit of the individual organism that possesses the variation. As KF might say, "they are all just explorations of the island of functionallity of the basic hemoglobin protein." There is one other important pattern that I identified in the paper. There is not a single teleost fish noted in the paper that lacks a functioning version of the hemoglobin gene. I am not sure what Dr. Tour would ask about this observation. But I know what I want to know. How did the first functional hemoglobin protein producing gene get here? I know it takes a vast array of machinery, (chemicals, in just the right concentrations in just the right solute with no "poisons", if you have a distaste for the my view of the system as machinery,) to make a protein from a DNA strand. How do you get from a hemoglobin-less universe one day to a ubiquitous-hemoglobin universe the next? (Hyperbole alert!) In the case of hemoglobin, that is the micro vs. macro contention. Tweak it, shuffle it, break it, whether accidentally or intentionally vs. INVENT AND MANUFACTURE IT. IMHO, StephenSteRusJon
March 7, 2014
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Hi everyone, In view of the lively discussion going on here regarding the distinction between micro- and macro-evolution, may I suggest that those readers who haven't already read my follow-up post, "Macroevolution, microevolution and chemistry: the devil is in the details" (at https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/macroevolution-microevolution-and-chemistry-the-devil-is-in-the-details/ ), might like to do so. Regarding the definition of a kind or species, Dr. Branko Kozulic has done some very valuable work, which I discuss in my two posts, "The Edge of Evolution?" (at https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/the-edge-of-evolution/ ) and "Some testable predictions entailed by Dr. Kozulic's model of Intelligent Design" (at https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/some-testable-predictions-entailed-by-dr-kozulics-model-of-intelligent-design/ ). Dr. Kozulic suggests that the existence of hundreds of chemically unique singleton proteins and genes in each species (not genus or family) of organism can be used to provide a proper definition of what a species really is, in contradistinction to the currently favored biological species concept (which simply uses reproductive isolation as a criterion, regardless of how this isolation may have developed in the first place). In the last post mentioned above, I also discuss some of the more difficult cases, such as cichlid fish and ring species. Cheers.vjtorley
March 7, 2014
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Franklin: Similarly, you have been sufficiently informed as to the difference between macro and micro to face the substantial matter, if you were willing. I will only add that in a great many cases the border between related but distinct concepts may be fuzzy. That does not invalidate the distinction. It just means that you have to be careful. And, if you cared to look, you would have seen a threshold relevant to the design inference, the FSCO/I threshold of 500 - 1,000 bits. On needle in haystack grounds, the atomic resources and time accessible in solar system or observed cosmos cannot credibly find FSCO/I beyond that threshold by blind chance and/or mechanical necessity. You have been given adequate information to see why this is relevant to OOL and OO body plans. Nor are you able to provide vera causa to substantiate the blind watchmaker thesis for OOL or OO Body Plans by such blind forces. That means that it is our epistemic right to insist on induction that such forces be ruled out as serious candidate explanations of such things until and unless you or ilk can pass the vera causa test. The notion of extrapolating from micro to macro while imposing ideological a prioris Lewontin style just does not cut it. KFkairosfocus
March 7, 2014
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Franklin, you are intelligent enough to use a dictionary, so you know or full well should know the difference between doing the equivalent of calling security to deal with a disruptive and slanderous heckler and having and using power to effectively suppress publication of ideas. There is a world of difference between say Mr Obama having a heckler evicted from a meeting such a heckler has disrupted and using policing power to prevent someone from publishing a legitimate criticism -- where, of course, there is no right to defame. Your insistence on mislabelling the former as the latter, having been corrected, speaks volumes about your attitudes and motivation. You are enabling a former slander by yourself indulging a slander. Just as, in another thread this afternoon, you sought to insinuate that thinking in terms of product life cycle patterns -- a first step in strat marketing -- is somehow inferior to doing linear regressions; maybe I should tell you that epidemics, and growing markets or for that matter pyramid schemes start exponentially, but tend to saturate, hence the utility of logistic models, Bass curves and the like or extensions. The pattern of behaviours you have been indulging in haste to poison the well is sadly revealing. KFkairosfocus
March 7, 2014
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Franklin: What metric (once something is understood) is used to separate the micro from the macro? IOW, how would we know one from the other? What is the defining criteria?
A good starting point is a detailed and gap-free accounting for the "emergence" of novel cell types, tissue types, organs and body plans.CentralScrutinizer
March 7, 2014
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Franklin "Current unknown" (micro/macro) not the same as "understood" (micro) per Dr Tour. Unknown/Known and Micro/Macro splits and how to figure difference in Evolution Theory? Good question. Mountains of Evidence & Peer Review?:)ppolish
March 7, 2014
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ppolish, this:
The current unknown could be micro or macro. When it becomes known it could be understood as micro or macro.
doesn't seem to agree with this statement of your's:
f it is understood – it must be micro.
could you clarify this issue for us? What metric (once something is understood) is used to separate the micro from the macro? IOW, how would we know one from the other? What is the defining criteria?franklin
March 7, 2014
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Franklin, I can understand your point that if you understand micro you will understand macro. And Dr Tour saying he understands one and not the other is therefore bogus.ppolish
March 7, 2014
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Franklin, The current unknown could be micro or macro. When it becomes known it could be understood as micro or macro. Dr Tour says the macro understanding has not happened yet. He is asking to see proof that's all. That's good Science.. Not pseudoscience.ppolish
March 7, 2014
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Moose Dr., How would we know what would have been discussed? Dr. tour refused to have the proposed session with Dr. Matzke recorded for posterity (why would he place that restriction on the meeting is beyond me) so how could we obtain an accurate rendition of what was, and wasn't said?franklin
March 7, 2014
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ppolish, so when something is unknown it is considered macro evolution and when it is known it is considered micro evolution. I know you mentioned that this is in some strange format Dr. Tour's premise but is it the consensus of the ID camp that this is the proper definition for micro and macro evolutionary changes? Querius, does Dr. Behe describe what is considered to be micro versus macro? What does this indicate for hemoglobin in teleost fish? Would he consider it as micro or macro evolutionary changes?franklin
March 7, 2014
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Oh, um, to be fair to Mr. Nye, allow him to bring along one or two of his favorite scientist to support his position.Moose Dr
March 7, 2014
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Wow! Here's what we need to do: Start a crowdfund to raise $1,000,000. Tell Bill Nye that if he: > Sits down with Dr. Tour for 1 hour, and discusses evolution with him, > Declares in public that Dr. Tour, because he does not hold to Darwinism, should not be welcomed in the scientific, or engineering community, (optionally, and that he should not have the right to vote.) >He makes this declaration while attached to a lie detector that confirms that he is telling the truth. If Mr. Nye can make this declaration with a straight face, he gets to donate the $1 million fund to his choice of charity. If he cannot, he must recant his public statements, and Dr. Tour gets to donate the fund to his charity. If Mr. Nye doesn't take up the offer, let his rejection be made public, and let Dr. Tour make the donation.Moose Dr
March 7, 2014
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Michael Behe's book, The Edge of Evolution, addresses this issue in detail when he considers the evolution of resistance to malaria, and malaria's successful evolutionary counter-attack. -QQuerius
March 7, 2014
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Franklin, I'm just using the Dr Tour premise that "no scientist understands macroevolution". If it is understood - it must be micro.ppolish
March 7, 2014
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so, ppolish, is current ignorance the metric and measure micro versus macro?franklin
March 7, 2014
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Do we know precisely how "hemoglobin in modern teleosts" evolved? If yes - it's micro. If no - it's macro.ppolish
March 7, 2014
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Joe before we consider what genes are involved in any of the examples let's first get a commitment from the ID camp on which examples are micr and which are macro changes. For example let's start with hemoglobin in modern teleosts. Is the wide variation in oxygen:hemoglobin binding characteristics (sigmoidal and hyperbolic dissociation curves as well as reverse temperature effects for example). Are these micro changes? Or macro changes? Kf it isn't a false accusation to point out that you've censored Dr. Matzke as well as modified his posts. It is available for all to see no matter what rationalization you try to use to jsutify your actions.franklin
March 7, 2014
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franklin- what genes are involved in your examples? I ask because:
Loci that are obviously variable within natural populations do not seem to lie at the basis of many major adaptive changes, while those loci that seemingly do constitute the foundation of many if not most major adaptive changes are not variable.- John McDonald, “The Molecular Basis of Adaptaion: A Critical Review of Relevant Ideas and Observation”, 1983</blockquote? That would tell you if the changes in your examples can be accounted for or not.
Joe
March 7, 2014
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F/N: For convenience, let me clip 12 and 13 from the UD WAC's: ____________________ >> 12] Macro-evolution is nothing but lots and lots of “micro-evolution”! Such a point of view is simply untenable, and it denotes a complete misunderstanding of the nature of function. Macroevolution, in all its possible meanings, implies the emergence of new complex functions. A function is not the simplistic sum of a great number of “elementary” sub-functions: sub-functions have to be interfaced and coherently integrated to give a smoothly performing whole. In the same way, macroevolution is not the mere sum of elementary microevolutionary events. A computer program, for instance, is not the sum of simple instructions. Even if it is composed ultimately of simple instructions, the information-processing capacity of the software depends on the special, complex order of those instructions. You will never obtain a complex computer program by randomly assembling elementary instructions or modules of such instructions. In the same way, macroevolution cannot be a linear, simple or random accumulation of microevolutionary steps. Microevolution, in all its known examples (antibiotic resistance, and similar) is made of simple variations, which are selectable for the immediate advantage connected to them. But a new functional protein cannot be built by simple selectable variations, no more than a poem can be created by random variations of single letters, or a software written by a sequence of elementary (bit-like) random variations, each of them improving the “function” of the software. Function simply does not work that way. Function derives from higher levels of order and connection, which cannot emerge from a random accumulation of micro-variations. As the complexity (number of bits) of the functional sequence increases, the search space increases exponentially, rapidly denying any chance of random exploration of the space itself. 13] Real Scientists Do Not Use Terms Like Microevolution or Macroevolution The best answer to this claim, which is little more than an urban legend, is to cite relevant cases. First, textbooks: Campbell’s Biology (4th Ed.) states: “macroevolution: Evolutionary change on a grand scale, encompassing the origin of novel designs, evolutionary trends, adaptive radiation, and mass extinction.” [By contrast, this book defines “microevolution as “a change in the gene pool of a population over a succession of generations”] Futuyma’s Evolutionary Biology, in the edition used by a senior member at UD for an upper division College course, states, “In Chapters 23 through 25, we will analyze the principles of MACROEVOLUTION, that is, the origin and diversification of higher taxa.” (pg. 447, emphasis in original). [Futuyma contrasts “microevolution” -- “slight, short-term evolutionary changes within species.”] In his 1989 McGraw Hill textbook, Macroevolutionary Dynamics, Niles Eldredge admits that “[m]ost families, orders, classes, and phyla appear rather suddenly in the fossil record, often without anatomically intermediate forms smoothly interlinking evolutionarily derived descendant taxa with their presumed ancestors.” (pg. 22.) In Macroevolution: Pattern and Process (Steven M. Stanley, The Johns Hopkins University Press, 1998 version), we read that, “[t]he known fossil record fails to document a single example of phyletic evolution accomplishing a major morphological transition and hence offers no evidence that the gradualistic model can be valid.” (pg. 39) The scientific journal literature also uses the terms “macroevolution” or “microevolution.” In 1980, Roger Lewin reported in Science on a major meeting at the University of Chicago that sought to reconcile biologists’ understandings of evolution with the findings of paleontology: “The central question of the Chicago conference was whether the mechanisms underlying microevolution can be extrapolated to explain the phenomena of macroevolution. At the risk of doing violence to the positions of some of the people at the meeting, the answer can be given as a clear, No.” (Roger Lewin, “Evolutionary Theory Under Fire,” Science, Vol. 210:883-887, Nov. 1980.) Two years earlier, Robert E. Ricklefs had written in an article in Science entitled “Paleontologists confronting macroevolution,” contending: “The punctuated equilibrium model has been widely accepted, not because it has a compelling theoretical basis but because it appears to resolve a dilemma. … apart from its intrinsic circularity (one could argue that speciation can occur only when phyletic change is rapid, not vice versa), the model is more ad hoc explanation than theory, and it rests on shaky ground.” (Science, Vol. 199:58-60, Jan. 6, 1978.) So, if such terms are currently in disfavor, that is clearly because they highlight problems with the Modern Evolutionary theory that it is currently impolitic to draw attention to. In the end, the terms are plainly legitimate and meaningful, as they speak to an obvious and real distinction between (a) the population changes that are directly observationally confirmed, “microevolution,” and (b) the major proposed body-plan transformation level changes that are not: “macroevolution.” >> ____________________ That should suffice to adequately answer the problem that needs to be resolved. We need to ask some pointed questions on why it is that so often, darwinist advocates feel compelled to make the pretence that terms that are legitimate and in use are somehow suddenly illegitimate, suspect innovations made up out of whole cloth once critics or questioners of Darwinism take them up. (And BTW, no 14 takes up the canard that Darwinism is another case of terms invented by critics. It can also be shown that even "Complex Specified Information" or "specified complexity" are quite close to terms used by OOL researchers such as Orgel and Wicken in the 1970's.) I find it particularly offensive, post the Nye Ham debate, to see the projection tactic that suggests that by using terms like this and summarising meanings, we are like cult founders, with "your" term or "your" definition. The implicit ad hominems are unacceptable, and the dishonest tactic should be dropped. KF PS: Notice, no making amends for false accusation of censorship -- a typical pattern. I repeat, the equivalent of calling in security to deal with a heckler spewing false accusations is not censorship. PPS: Now that I have heard of some disclosure my son may be making online that reveals what he should not . . . likely linked to the way IT is being taught here, if my "educated guess is close to on target" . . . I will deal with it. Mind you, I found out also from those fever swamps trying to out me and create a cloud of adverse references should I be googled, that when, decades ago my uni insisted that my full name be attached to academic submissions, then it went on and Google Booked such, it enabled the usual cyber harassers.kairosfocus
March 7, 2014
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Folks: Let us remind ourselves on what triggered the latest stanza on the long running darwinist song of distract, evade, twist about. Namely, the challenge since Sept 23, 2012 to any darwinist in the world, that we would host here at UD an essay that provides cogent, coherent, well-argued grounds for the darwinist narrative:
provide a 6,000 word feature-length article that justifies the Darwinist tree of life from its OOL roots up through the Cambrian revo — as in Darwin’s Doubt territory — and other major formation of body plans up to and including our own origins, and we will host it here at UD, one of the leading ID blogs in the world. We are perfectly willing to host a parallel post with another site. Only, you must provide thesis and observation based evidence that solidly justifies your conclusions in light of inference to best explanation, the vera causa principle and other basic principles of sound scientific induction. Also, you must actually argue the case in outline, a summing up if you will. You must strive to avoid Lewontin’s a priori evolutionary materialism, and if you would redefine science on such terms you will have to reasonably justify why that is not a question-begging definition, in a way that is historically and philosophically soundly informed. Of course, you may link sources elsewhere, but you must engage the task of providing a coherent, non-question-begging, cogent argument in summary at the level of a feature-length serious magazine article . . . no literature bluffs in short.
Of course, we would be perfectly willing to host it in parallel with TSZ et al. The above reaction by Franklin, to try to poison the atmosphere by falsely accusing me of censorship as an excuse to dodge a duty of warrant that Darwinists should have long since met, compounded by enabling behaviour not only for heckling but actual thuggish threats against my family entertained in the name of freedom of expression or the like, speaks volumes. Doing the equivalent of calling out security to remove a rudely disruptive heckler spewing slanders is not censorship, for those who came in late . . . and unfortunately, we have had to deal with a lot of trollishness and frankly some thuggery making ugly threats and enabling of both. We are patently dealing with ideological zealotry that imagines it has a right to resort to any means it deems necessary here. Fanaticism and enabling of bully-boy fanaticism, in short. It is also interesting, in light of the highlighted part of the clip to see the latest round on the pretence that speaking of macro- and micro- evolution is some nefarious plot by opponents of darwinist thought. Let's clip Joe from 287, citing leading darwinist advocate Jerry Coyne:
“MACROEVOLUTION: ‘Major’ evolutionary change, usually thought of as large changes in body form or the evolution of one type of plant or animal from another type. The change from our primate ancestor to modern humans, or from early reptiles to birds, would be considered macroevolution. “MICROEVOLUTION: ‘Minor’ evolutionary change, such as the change in size or color of a species. One example is the evolution of different skin colors or hair types among human populations; another is the evolution of antibiotic resistance in bacteria.”
Those are acceptable to us, and highlight the significance of the FSCO/I threshold already outlined by me at 292 supra. Let's just say that no-one has shown a case where, credibly, by any blind chance and mechanical necessity mechanism, 500 - 1,000 bits of FSCO/I has been created without intelligent injection of what has come to be termed active information. The needle in haystack search challenge reasons are obvious. And the OOL challenge involves 100,000 - 1 mn bits, with origin of body plans involving 10 - 100+ millions dozens of times over. The Cambrian revolution and the OOL conundrum are emblematic cases in point, tied to the root and main branches of the Darwinist Tree of Life. As can be seen from the Smithsonian's presentation of a modern ToL. Onward debate points on the macro-micro talking point, of course, are in the UD weak argument correctives, accessible by scrolling up to the resources tab at the top of this page. As we head for 100,000 hits for Dr Torley's thread, let us see if there are any Darwinists in the world willing to step up to the plate and take up a guaranteed free kick at goal. (They full well know that if they can pull off such an essay, design theory as regards the world of life, would be finished.) KFkairosfocus
March 7, 2014
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Let's just say, for arguments sake, speciation is the distinguishing characteristic of macroevolution, since the process appears to generally associated with the culmination of a great many genomic edits.littlejohn
March 6, 2014
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no,my intent was not to imply anything. I want to know what design thinkers consider to be micro changes versus macro changes. You stated Dr. Tour's stance that organ changes (what does that mean actually?) so I was wondering what did and what did not fall into that category. I've been asking these basic questions since #286 about but so far the IDist position is non-responsiveness on this issue. I was hoping you could tell be if red blood cells were organs or if hemoglobin is considered an organ. That way there is some framework for discussion. we appear to be stuck at the starting gate!franklin
March 6, 2014
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Franklin If you are implying science does not understand "micro" either, I hear you. No argument from me:)ppolish
March 6, 2014
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ppolish:
“Organ Changes” are “macro” per Dr Tour in OP. Which means he does not understand how. No scientist does per Dr Tour.
are blood vessels organs? Are erythrocytes organs? Is hemoglobin an organ?franklin
March 6, 2014
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