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A world-famous chemist tells the truth: there’s no scientist alive today who understands macroevolution

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Professor James M. Tour is one of the ten most cited chemists in the world. He is famous for his work on nanocars (pictured above, courtesy of Wikipedia), nanoelectronics, graphene nanostructures, carbon nanovectors in medicine, and green carbon research for enhanced oil recovery and environmentally friendly oil and gas extraction. He is currently a Professor of Chemistry, Professor of Computer Science, and Professor of Mechanical Engineering and Materials Science at Rice University. He has authored or co-authored 489 scientific publications and his name is on 36 patents. Although he does not regard himself as an Intelligent Design theorist, Professor Tour, along with over 700 other scientists, took the courageous step back in 2001 of signing the Discovery Institute’s “A Scientific Dissent from Darwinism”, which read: “We are skeptical of claims for the ability of random mutation and natural selection to account for the complexity of life. Careful examination of the evidence for Darwinian theory should be encouraged.”

On Professor Tour’s Website, there’s a very revealing article on evolution and creation, in which Tour bluntly states that he does not understand how macroevolution could have happened, from a chemical standpoint (all bold emphases below are mine – VJT):

Although most scientists leave few stones unturned in their quest to discern mechanisms before wholeheartedly accepting them, when it comes to the often gross extrapolations between observations and conclusions on macroevolution, scientists, it seems to me, permit unhealthy leeway. When hearing such extrapolations in the academy, when will we cry out, “The emperor has no clothes!”?

…I simply do not understand, chemically, how macroevolution could have happened. Hence, am I not free to join the ranks of the skeptical and to sign such a statement without reprisals from those that disagree with me? … Does anyone understand the chemical details behind macroevolution? If so, I would like to sit with that person and be taught, so I invite them to meet with me.

In a more recent talk, entitled, Nanotech and Jesus Christ, given on 1 November 2012 at Georgia Tech, Professor Tour went further, and declared that no scientist that he has spoken to understands macroevolution – and that includes Nobel Prize winners! Here’s what he said when a student in the audience asked him about evolution:

I will tell you as a scientist and a synthetic chemist: if anybody should be able to understand evolution, it is me, because I make molecules for a living, and I don’t just buy a kit, and mix this and mix this, and get that. I mean, ab initio, I make molecules. I understand how hard it is to make molecules. I understand that if I take Nature’s tool kit, it could be much easier, because all the tools are already there, and I just mix it in the proportions, and I do it under these conditions, but ab initio is very, very hard.

I don’t understand evolution, and I will confess that to you. Is that OK, for me to say, “I don’t understand this”? Is that all right? I know that there’s a lot of people out there that don’t understand anything about organic synthesis, but they understand evolution. I understand a lot about making molecules; I don’t understand evolution. And you would just say that, wow, I must be really unusual.

Let me tell you what goes on in the back rooms of science – with National Academy members, with Nobel Prize winners. I have sat with them, and when I get them alone, not in public – because it’s a scary thing, if you say what I just said – I say, “Do you understand all of this, where all of this came from, and how this happens?” Every time that I have sat with people who are synthetic chemists, who understand this, they go “Uh-uh. Nope.” These people are just so far off, on how to believe this stuff came together. I’ve sat with National Academy members, with Nobel Prize winners. Sometimes I will say, “Do you understand this?”And if they’re afraid to say “Yes,” they say nothing. They just stare at me, because they can’t sincerely do it.

I was once brought in by the Dean of the Department, many years ago, and he was a chemist. He was kind of concerned about some things. I said, “Let me ask you something. You’re a chemist. Do you understand this? How do you get DNA without a cell membrane? And how do you get a cell membrane without a DNA? And how does all this come together from this piece of jelly?” We have no idea, we have no idea. I said, “Isn’t it interesting that you, the Dean of science, and I, the chemistry professor, can talk about this quietly in your office, but we can’t go out there and talk about this?”

If you understand evolution, I am fine with that. I’m not going to try to change you – not at all. In fact, I wish I had the understanding that you have.

But about seven or eight years ago I posted on my Web site that I don’t understand. And I said, “I will buy lunch for anyone that will sit with me and explain to me evolution, and I won’t argue with you until I don’t understand something – I will ask you to clarify. But you can’t wave by and say, “This enzyme does that.” You’ve got to get down in the details of where molecules are built, for me. Nobody has come forward.

The Atheist Society contacted me. They said that they will buy the lunch, and they challenged the Atheist Society, “Go down to Houston and have lunch with this guy, and talk to him.” Nobody has come! Now remember, because I’m just going to ask, when I stop understanding what you’re talking about, I will ask. So I sincerely want to know. I would like to believe it. But I just can’t.

Now, I understand microevolution, I really do. We do this all the time in the lab. I understand this. But when you have speciation changes, when you have organs changing, when you have to have concerted lines of evolution, all happening in the same place and time – not just one line – concerted lines, all at the same place, all in the same environment … this is very hard to fathom.

I was in Israel not too long ago, talking with a bio-engineer, and [he was] describing to me the ear, and he was studying the different changes in the modulus of the ear, and I said, “How does this come about?” And he says, “Oh, Jim, you know, we all believe in evolution, but we have no idea how it happened.” Now there’s a good Jewish professor for you. I mean, that’s what it is. So that’s where I am. Have I answered the question? (52:00 to 56:44)

Professor Tour’s online talk is absolutely fascinating as well as being deeply moving on a personal level, and I would strongly urge readers to listen to his talk in its entirety – including the questions after the talk. You won’t regret it, I promise you. One interesting little gem of information which I’ll reveal is that it was Professor Tour who was largely instrumental in getting Nobel Laureate Richard Smalley, winner of the 1996 Nobel Prize in Chemistry, to reject Darwinian evolution and accept Old Earth creationism, shortly before he died in 2005. It was Tour who persuaded Smalley to delve into the question of origins. After reading the books “Origins of Life” and “Who Was Adam?”, written by Dr. Hugh Ross (an astrophysicist) and Dr. Fazale Rana (a biochemist).. Dr. Smalley explained his change of heart as follows:

Evolution has just been dealt its death blow. After reading “Origins of Life”, with my background in chemistry and physics, it is clear evolution could not have occurred. The new book, “Who Was Adam?”, is the silver bullet that puts the evolutionary model to death.

Strong words indeed, for a Nobel scientist. Readers can find out more about Professor Richard Smalley’s change of views here.

Why should we believe macroevolution, if nobody understands it?

Now that Professor Tour has informed the world that even Nobel Prize-winning scientists privately admit that they don’t understand macroevolution, a layperson is surely entitled to ask: “Well, if even they don’t understand it, then why should we believe it? How can we possibly be obliged to believe in a theory which nobody understands?”

That’s a good question. And it’s no use for Darwinists to trot out the standard “party line” that “even if we don’t yet understand how it happened, we still have enough evidence to infer that it happened.” At the very most, all that the current scientific evidence could establish is the common descent of living organisms. But that’s not macroevolution. Macroevolution requires more than a common ancestry for living organisms: it requires a natural mechanism which can generate the diversity of life-forms we see on Earth today from a common stock, without the need for any direction by an Intelligent Agent. But the mechanism is precisely what we don’t have evidence for. So the question remains: why should we believe in macroevolution?

The decline of academic freedom

Given the massive uncertainty about the “how” of macroevolution among scientists working in the field, you might think that a wide variety of views would be tolerated in the scientific arena – including the view that there is no such process as macroevolution. However, you would be sadly mistaken. As Professor Tour notes in his online article on evolution and creation, an alarming academic trend has emerged in recent years: a growing intolerance of dissent from Darwinism. This trend is so pronounced that Professor Tour now advises his students not to voice their doubts about Darwinism in public, if they want a successful career:

In the last few years I have seen a saddening progression at several institutions. I have witnessed unfair treatment upon scientists that do not accept macroevolutionary arguments and for their having signed the above-referenced statement regarding the examination of Darwinism. (I will comment no further regarding the specifics of the actions taken upon the skeptics; I love and honor my colleagues too much for that.) I never thought that science would have evolved like this. I deeply value the academy; teaching, professing and research in the university are my privileges and joys…

But my recent advice to my graduate students has been direct and revealing: If you disagree with Darwinian Theory, keep it to yourselves if you value your careers, unless, of course, you’re one of those champions for proclamation; I know that that fire exists in some, so be ready for lead-ridden limbs. But if the scientific community has taken these shots at senior faculty, it will not be comfortable for the young non-conformist. When the power-holders permit no contrary discussion, can a vibrant academy be maintained? Is there a University (unity in diversity)? For the United States, I pray that the scientific community and the National Academy in particular will investigate the disenfranchisement that is manifest upon some of their own, and thereby address the inequity.

It remains to be seen if other countries will allow their young scientists to think freely about the origin of life, and of the various species of organisms that we find on Earth today. What I will say, though, is that countries which restrict academic freedom will eventually be overtaken by countries which allow it to prosper. There is still time for America and Europe to throw off the dead hand of Darwinism in academic circles, and let their young people breathe the unaccustomed air of free speech once again.

(UPDATE: Here’s a link to my follow-up post, Macroevolution, microevolution and chemistry: the devil is in the details. It amply refutes the simplistic charge, made by some skeptics, that Professor Tour was conflating macroevolution with the question of the origin of life.)

UD Editors:  This post has received a great deal of attention lately, so we are moving it back to the front page.

Comments
@William J Murray (248)
WJM: From the atomic perspective, one wonders what to make of an entity comprised mostly of empty space and indeterminate locations of energy (..)
An entity nonetheless. One can only conclude that here the atomic perspective is utterly inadequate.
WJM: (..) that can, utilizing no more of an understanding any of the principles, forces, materials and mechanisms at work than that by simply applying its will, it can make that universe of space and materials that comprise the human body move upon command. Simply by willing one’s arm to lift, billions upon billions of things happen – at the subatomic level – to make it so, even though the entity applying the will has no understanding of how any of it works or is attached to its will. (..)
This is indeed a mystery. One possibility is that consciousness is multi-layered and not all levels are part of conscious experience.
WJM: Yet, how can the motion of the atoms through space be accounted for without reference to the will that is guiding it?
Considering their harmony in context of the whole, the motion of all parts, must be causally related to the whole. To my knowledge there is no known concept of such a ‘mechanism’.Box
February 24, 2013
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KN Sorry, but you lost me.
(2) A system is reducible if the properties of the system can be explained in terms of the parts of the system and the relations between those parts. (3) But living things cannot be adequately explained that way, because (e.g.) how regions of DNA are transcribed depends on how they are situated within the chromosome, how the chromosome is situated within the nucleus, etc.
How is it that "regions of DNA are transcribed depends on how they are situated within ..." in (3) is not covered under "the relations between those parts" portion of (2)? Stephensterusjon
February 24, 2013
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Box, I think a much better argument would be pursued "negatively": (1) If a system is mechanical, then it is reducible. (2) A system is reducible if the properties of the system can be explained in terms of the parts of the system and the relations between those parts. (3) But living things cannot be adequately explained that way, because (e.g.) how regions of DNA are transcribed depends on how they are situated within the chromosome, how the chromosome is situated within the nucleus, etc. (4) Therefore, living things are not reducible, and hence they are not mechanical. Put otherwise, the relevant questions are: (1) are living things irreducibly complex? (2) can "Darwinian evolution" (random mutation + natural selection) account for irreducible complexity? (3) are there are any "natural" (broadly construed) process that can account for irreducible complexity? (4) is intelligent design the best explanation of irreducible complexity? To those questions, my answers are, respectively, "yes," "no," "probably" and "probably not". So even though I'm not terribly sympathetic to design theory at the end of the day, it's not because of my answers to (1) and (2) there -- I actually think design theorist are right to answer (1) and (2) with "yes" and "no," respectively. It's just that I think that self-organization theory is a better alternative to design theory. (I would also add that Kauffman's polite, respectful attitude towards Dembski has been a model for my interactions with folks here.)Kantian Naturalist
February 24, 2013
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KN writes:
Certainly a DNA molecule in a living cell is radically different from one that’s sitting in a test-tube, all by itself — that difference is part of Talbott’s whole point. But whether the same point applies to the atoms themselves — I just don’t know.
I respectfully suggest you are wrong (or maybe I am mis-parsing)as I would suggest that any identical DNA sequence is no more distinguishable, with regard to its origin, say, from any another than one electron is distinguishable from another electron.Alan Fox
February 24, 2013
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From the atomic perspective, one wonders what to make of an entity comprised mostly of empty space and indeterminate locations of energy that can, utilizing no more of an understanding any of the principles, forces, materials and mechanisms at work than that by simply applying its will, it can make that universe of space and materials that comprise the human body move upon command. Simply by willing one's arm to lift, billions upon billions of things happen - at the subatomic level - to make it so, even though the entity applying the will has no understanding of how any of it works or is attached to its will. Yet, how can the motion of the atoms through space be accounted for without reference to the will that is guiding it?William J Murray
February 24, 2013
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Box, re 242: Believe it or not, there is a Quantum Physics for Dummies out there (and it has a companion workbook). When it comes to a good survey of physics, I like Motion Mountain. Hope they help. KFkairosfocus
February 24, 2013
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The Argument From Wholeness: Premise 1: A whole exist Premise 2: If a whole exist metaphysical reductionism is false. Conclusion: Metaphysical reductionism is false. Arguments for premise 1: - I experience myself as a whole. - Descartes shows us that we cannot deny our own existence. I understand Descartes like this: ‘I ‘doubt my existence’ but (to be able) to ‘doubt my existence’ I have to exist … Translation: I think therefor I am. - Our thoughts need context. We cannot understand anything without context. Nothing has meaning without context. We can only understand things as being parts of a whole. - We see wholes everywhere in life. Talbott shows us that every ‘organism’ is organized by itself – top-down.Box
February 24, 2013
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In re: Box @ 241:
Never mind that one could argue that being part of a whole changes a nitrogen atom.
Conceivably, yes. But that opens up the following very interesting problem, put in terms of "relations" and "relata" [the things that are related]: do relata change by virtue of the relations they are in? Such that a nitrogen atom in a living being is a different kind of nitrogen atom than one that isn't? Certainly a DNA molecule in a living cell is radically different from one that's sitting in a test-tube, all by itself -- that difference is part of Talbott's whole point. But whether the same point applies to the atoms themselves -- I just don't know. I want to say that it doesn't apply there, but I also don't know how to explain why it doesn't.
So it is option 2 right (see post 238)? Surely there are only two options?
Yes, I'm in favor of Option 2 above. I tried coming up with a third option, just to see, but nothing came to me.Kantian Naturalist
February 23, 2013
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Thank you :)Box
February 23, 2013
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Box, I don't know of a 'place'. ,,, but here is a good video that gets a couple of very important basic points across: Light and Quantum Entanglement Reflect Some of the Characteristics Of God - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4102182bornagain77
February 23, 2013
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Bornagain77 Where to start learning about quantum physics when one is not particularly smart and not endowed with any talent for this area?Box
February 23, 2013
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@Kantian Naturalist (239)
KN: Dennett isn’t completely wrong here. (He usually isn’t, in my personal estimation.) Agency and purposiveness don’t go all the way down — the nitrogen atoms that partially comprise the molecules of adenosine in the DNA in my cells do not, qua nitrogen atoms, display any more agency or purposiveness than do those elsewhere in the universe.
Well I see your point, but let’s agree that Dennett is partly right in a miserable way. Never mind that one could argue that being part of a whole changes a nitrogen atom.
KN: But Talbott is certainly right that, when we go down to the atomic level, what we find there will not illuminate what is distinctive and significant about living beings.
So it is option 2 right (see post 238)? Surely there are only two options? ;)Box
February 23, 2013
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Correction: I meant "adenine," not "adenosine". Whoops! :)Kantian Naturalist
February 23, 2013
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Dennett isn't completely wrong here. (He usually isn't, in my personal estimation.) Agency and purposiveness don't go all the way down --- the nitrogen atoms that partially comprise the molecules of adenosine in the DNA in my cells do not, qua nitrogen atoms, display any more agency or purposiveness than do those elsewhere in the universe. But Talbott is certainly right that, when we go down to the atomic level, what we find there will not illuminate what is distinctive and significant about living beings.Kantian Naturalist
February 23, 2013
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Kantian Naturalist (236) I think there are two options here: - Option 1: Rejection of the existence of the whole a la Daniel Dennett. Daniel Dennett: ‘There I something alien and vaguely repellent about this quasi agency we discover at this level – all that purposive hustle and bustle, and yet ‘there is nobody home’ - Option 2: Acceptance of the existence of the whole; the entelecheia; living being. This implies a rejection of reductionism even as an abstract belief.
KN (213) But if I try to identify myself as a system of particles, I don’t know what to say. I believe the physicists when they tell me that my body is composed of cells, and the cells of molecules, and the molecules of atoms, and the atoms of neutrons, protons, and electrons, and so on. But that’s a purely theoretical, very abstract belief that I cannot connect with my lived experience and which has no bearing on my daily life.
Box
February 23, 2013
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Box, Yeah!,, Dr. Stephen Meyer, as I'm sure your are well aware, wrote a book entitled "Signature In The Cell" based on the fact that the only known cause in operation for the functional 'classical information' we find encoded, sequentially, on DNA is intelligence (i.e. 'Signature of Intelligence'). And even though the functional information encoded on DNA is orders of magnitude more complex than anything man has ever written in a computer program, and is certainly indicative of what would be expected if God had written the codes in life, atheists/Darwinists are loathe to accept it as proof. Indeed many atheists are willing to redefine science, lie, cuss, back stab, and whatever it takes, to deny that such vastly superior coding is indicative that intelligence had any hand whatsoever in designing life. But finding quantum information/entanglement in DNA (and in proteins and in molecular machines) takes the argument to a whole new level. This is because quantum information/entanglement in life, unlike classical information, simply cannot be held, in any way, shape, or form, as an 'emergent' property of any material basis, but requires a beyond space and time cause to explain its existence within space time (within biological life). In my opinion, since classical information provided a "Signature in the Cell" as to intelligence designing life, quantum information went one giant step further and notarized that signature to be from none other than God as to sustaining life. It is important to point out that we have very good reason to believe that a very high level of information processing is being accomplished by the quantum information/entanglement within DNA:
Quantum Computing in DNA – Stuart Hameroff Excerpt of Hypothesis: DNA utilizes quantum information and quantum computation for various functions. Superpositions of dipole states of base pairs consisting of purine (A,G) and pyrimidine (C,T) ring structures play the role of qubits, and quantum communication (coherence, entanglement, non-locality) occur in the “pi stack” region of the DNA molecule.,,, We can then consider DNA as a chain of qubits (with helical twist). Output of quantum computation would be manifest as the net electron interference pattern in the quantum state of the pi stack, regulating gene expression and other functions locally and nonlocally by radiation or entanglement. http://www.quantumconsciousness.org/views/QuantumComputingInDNA.html
and it is also interesting to point out that Talbott asked a very important question:
The Unbearable Wholeness of Beings - Steve Talbott Excerpt: Virtually the same collection of molecules exists in the canine cells during the moments immediately before and after death. But after the fateful transition no one will any longer think of genes as being regulated, nor will anyone refer to normal or proper chromosome functioning. No molecules will be said to guide other molecules to specific targets, and no molecules will be carrying signals, which is just as well because there will be no structures recognizing signals. Code, information, and communication, in their biological sense, will have disappeared from the scientist’s vocabulary. http://www.thenewatlantis.com/publications/the-unbearable-wholeness-of-beings
In answer to Talbott's question, we now have good reason to believe that the 'fragile quantum states' of quantum coherence within proteins and DNA are lost fairly quickly by biological systems upon death;
Being the skunk at an atheist convention - Stuart Hameroff Excerpt: When metabolic requirements for quantum coherence in brain microtubules are lost (e.g. death, near-death), quantum information pertaining to that individual may persist and remain entangled in Planck scale geometry. http://www.quantumconsciousness.org/skunk.htm Quantum Entangled Consciousness - Life After Death - Stuart Hameroff - video http://vimeo.com/39982578 Testing quantum entanglement in protein Excerpt: The authors remark that this reverses the previous orthodoxy, which held that quantum effects could not exist in biological systems because of the amount of noise in these systems.,,, Environmental noise here drives a persistent and cyclic generation of new entanglement.,,, In summary, the authors say that they have demonstrated that entanglement can recur even in a hot noisy environment. In biological systems this can be related to changes in the conformation of macromolecules. http://www.quantum-mind.co.uk/testing-quantum-entanglement-in-protein-c288.html
And, to reiterate, the quantum information that is lost from the body upon death (or any other system) is now shown to be 'conserved'. i.e. it is shown that Quantum information cannot be destroyed!
Quantum no-hiding theorem experimentally confirmed for first time - March 2011 Excerpt: In the classical world, information can be copied and deleted at will. In the quantum world, however, the conservation of quantum information means that information cannot be created nor destroyed. http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-03-quantum-no-hiding-theorem-experimentally.html Quantum no-deleting theorem Excerpt: A stronger version of the no-cloning theorem and the no-deleting theorem provide permanence to quantum information. To create a copy one must import the information from some part of the universe and to delete a state one needs to export it to another part of the universe where it will continue to exist. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_no-deleting_theorem#Consequence of note: IMO, quantum teleportation really brings this 'conservation' point home
Supplemental note: ,,,This following research provides solid falsification for the late Rolf Landauer’s decades old contention that the information encoded in a computer is merely physical (merely ‘emergent’ from a material basis) since he believed it always required energy to erase it;
Quantum knowledge cools computers: New understanding of entropy – June 2011 Excerpt: No heat, even a cooling effect; In the case of perfect classical knowledge of a computer memory (zero entropy), deletion of the data requires in theory no energy at all. The researchers prove that “more than complete knowledge” from quantum entanglement with the memory (negative entropy) leads to deletion of the data being accompanied by removal of heat from the computer and its release as usable energy. This is the physical meaning of negative entropy. Renner emphasizes, however, “This doesn’t mean that we can develop a perpetual motion machine.” The data can only be deleted once, so there is no possibility to continue to generate energy. The process also destroys the entanglement, and it would take an input of energy to reset the system to its starting state. The equations are consistent with what’s known as the second law of thermodynamics: the idea that the entropy of the universe can never decrease. Vedral says “We’re working on the edge of the second law. If you go any further, you will break it.” http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/06/110601134300.htm
Verse and Music:
Proverbs 21:30 There is no wisdom and no understanding And no counsel against the LORD. Steven Curtis Chapman - Lord of the Dance (Live) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hDXbvMcMbU0
bornagain77
February 23, 2013
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What power holds off that moment of death? What is this ‘whole’? What is acting top-down upon its components? What is it that is in control of its components for a lifetime?
I suppose I would have to say that what holds off the moment of death is just the integrated metabolic activity of the whole organism -- that's what constitutes the persisting-in-remaining-itself (what Aristotle calls the entelecheia) of the living being.Kantian Naturalist
February 23, 2013
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Kantian Naturalist (233) KN: This does not require anything above the cell or organism which does the controlling or organizing of the parts into the whole. I agree, the cell (or the organism) as a whole is controlling its own parts. No additional 'supernatural' phenomena swirling around. My question – Talbott’s question – referred to this cell (or the organism) as a whole. Allow me to rephrase the question: What power holds off that moment of death? What is this ‘whole’? What is acting top-down upon its components? What is it that is in control of its components for a lifetime? In my opinion a wrong answer would be: ‘the components’.Box
February 23, 2013
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Bornagain77 (230) I cannot find the quote, but I’m pretty sure that Michael Behe stated in Darwin’s Black Box that the moleculair level was the final black box to be opened. This was it. We finally had arrived. Life is lived in the details; which means at the molecular level. Now you are pointing towards the ‘QUANTUM FLAGELLA MOTOR’ and telling me we have one more level to go?Box
February 23, 2013
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What power holds off that moment?? What is this ‘whole’? What is acting from above upon the components of the cell / organism? What is in control for a lifetime? Kantian Naturalist, do you feel, with me, that this question by Talbott goes to the heart of the big mystery called life?
I'll answer the last question first: yes, definitely. (My fascination with the mystery of life is what led me to get an undergraduate degree in biology.) But about this "top-down" business: on Talbott's view -- or, at any rate, on mine -- the holistic integration of organisms (whether single-celled or multi-celled) is 'top-down' only the sense that the different parts of the whole can be understood only in terms of the whole of which they are parts. This does not require anything above the cell or organism which does the controlling or organizing of the parts into the whole. In other words, I think that everything Talbott is talking about here is fully consistent with the idea that organisms are self-organizing process/systems.Kantian Naturalist
February 23, 2013
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Kantian Naturalist (231) - KN: The metonymic fallacy. (…) Talbott has a tendency to say that all the components and sub-components of living things are just as alive as the whole organisms. The components of the cell are parts of (and in entanglement with) a ‘living context’; the whole. Are the components themselves dead? This is indeed a difficult question. What Talbott is arguing for, I believe, is that one cannot consider the components as being isolated from the living whole. - KN: The two senses of ‘because’. Talbott’s comparison seems far-fetched, but makes sense somehow. Kantian Naturalist, my question to you is from Tallbot: “The mystery in all this does not lie primarily in isolated “mechanisms” of interaction; the question, rather, is why things don’t fall completely apart — as they do, in fact, at the moment of death. What power holds off that moment — precisely for a lifetime, and not a moment longer?” What power holds off that moment?? What is this ‘whole’? What is acting from above upon the components of the cell / organism? What is in control for a lifetime? Kantian Naturalist, do you feel, with me, that this question by Talbott goes to the heart of the big mystery called life?Box
February 23, 2013
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Well, I've read those four essays, and pretty much found myself nodding along in enthusiastic agreement all the way through. I have two minor criticisms: (1) The metonymic fallacy. Generally speaking, the metonymic fallacy or fallacy of metonymy occurs whenever we try to explain the features of a whole by attributing those same features to one or some of its parts. (One sees this in neuroscientists who claim that "the brain thinks" or "the brain sees" or "the brain decides".) Likewise, Talbott has a tendency to say that all the components and sub-components of living things are just as alive as the whole organisms. I'd like to see Talbott confront this worry explicitly. (2) The two senses of 'because'. Talbott distinguishes between the because of law-governed causation and the because of rational explication. This is good, but here I worry that Talbott is, ironically, failing to acknowledge fully the being of organisms by assimilating their agency to the kind of agency distinctive of rational, language-using, sapient beings -- namely, beings like us. I suspect that this distinction between "two sense of because" is itself a hold-over from Cartesian dualism, only now it's a semantico-epistemological dualism instead of a metaphysical one. We might need more than just these two senses of because to do justice to not only how organisms are different from inorganic processes, but also to how rational, sapient animals are different from other kinds of organisms. Apart from those points, I liked Talbott's way of synthesizing some really important insights from molecular biology, genetics and epigenetics, developmental biology, and ecology. And I think that his deep metaphysical intuition -- forms arise from and are maintained, to the extent that they are maintained, by constellations of forces -- is exactly right. As for the question whether Talbott's view is compatible with design theory -- my suspicion is that Talbott's view of organisms is too "Aristotelian" to be smoothly harmonious with either design theory (which is basically Platonic-Stoic) or with "mainstream" evolutionary theory (which is basically Epicurean, as Dennett and Dawkins make crystal-clear).Kantian Naturalist
February 23, 2013
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Box, perhaps I can help bridge the gap a bit on Talbott's thinking, here he states:
organisms cannot be understood as having been designed, machine-like, whether by an engineer-God or a Blind Watchmaker elevated to god-like status.
And yet, despite Talbott's reservation towards the design inference, stuff like this recent article on ENV keep popping up:
Machine Within a Machine: The Ciliary Partitioning System - February 22, 2013 Excerpt: All these parts not only have to be at the right place at the right time, they must have the right shapes, sizes, and relative positions to work. If one of the nine pores or tunnels is out of alignment, or is too tight, no cilium will be built. If the diffusion barrier did not have the right properties, the parts would either be blocked from delivery, or stray molecules could interfere. If the ring complex were missing, it could not connect the ciliary pore complex to the membrane diffusion barrier. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2013/02/machine_within069271.html
,, For me, and I believe for most folks, the implications of design, in such articles from ENV and elsewhere, which keep popping pretty regularly, are overwhelming. It just blatantly obvious that such systems are designed. Moreover, when tested, blindwatchmaker scenarios are demonstrated to be grossly inadequate to explain what appears, by all rights, to be a product of ingenious design. Talbott, as much as I greatly respect the man and his thinking, seems to reveal his philosophical underpinning in the quote which follows the one I listed:
If organisms participate in a higher life, it is a participation that works from within — at a deep level the ancients recognized as that of the logos informing all things. It is a sharing of the springs of life and being, not a mere receptivity to some sort of external mechanical tinkering modeled anthropocentrically on human engineering.
i.e. Talbott believes (in a fairly narrowly focused way), if I'm not being too presumptuous), that evidence for God in life will come at the deepest levels of what we find in life, because he holds, as I do, that God is the source of all life. Well he is right in this regard because, as I've pointed out many times before, quantum entanglement, which requires a non-local, beyond space and time, cause (God) to explain its existence is now found in life on a massive scale in every protein and DNA molecule at the 'deepest levels' of life. "Holding life together", if you will, to be so far out of thermodynamic equilibrium.,,, But to bridge the design inference from molecular machines with 'holistic thinking' of Talbott a little more, it is found here that the flagellum is shown to be subject to 'non-local' quantum effects. Non-local quantum effects simply are not within the classical materialistic framework of neo-Darwinism to explain.
INFORMATION AND ENERGETICS OF QUANTUM FLAGELLA MOTOR Hiroyuki Matsuura, Nobuo Noda, Kazuharu Koide Tetsuya Nemoto and Yasumi Ito Excerpt from bottom page 7: Note that the physical principle of flagella motor does not belong to classical mechanics, but to quantum mechanics. When we can consider applying quantum physics to flagella motor, we can find out the shift of energetic state and coherent state. http://www2.ktokai-u.ac.jp/~shi/el08-046.pdf
Here is further confirmation of non-local quantum entanglement in molecular machines:
Persistent dynamic entanglement from classical motion: How bio-molecular machines can generate non-trivial quantum states – November 2011 Excerpt: We also show how conformational changes can be used by an elementary machine to generate entanglement even in unfavorable conditions. In biological systems, similar mechanisms could be exploited by more complex molecular machines or motors. http://arxiv.org/abs/1111.2126
Thus, regardless of what I consider to be the short hand that Talbott has dealt to the design inference for molecular machines, the fact is that not only is Intelligent Design the best explanation for how molecular machines came to be, but also Intelligent Design, to the deeper level of 'logos' of that 'sharing of the springs of life and being' that Talbott alludes to is also reflected in life and in molecular machines.bornagain77
February 23, 2013
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Kairosfocus (228), I think you have an excellent point. You must have noticed my silence on this matter. Still I’m not totally convinced that I do not have a point. What if the whole is somehow constantly involved with everything? What if there is no allowance for any mechanism in the cell to operate on its own? IOW there is a constant control from above on every aspect of the cell. If so, would this fact restrict us in making comparisons with computers and other mechanical devices?Box
February 23, 2013
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Box: It's more that the DNA coding for and regulating proteins level is giving foundational support for higher order things. If I were to discuss a PC in terms of flip flops, gates etc, it would sound quite irrelevant. But it is from such that there is enabling of ability to execute high level language, once interpreted or compiled. KFkairosfocus
February 23, 2013
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KN: Get PDF Exchange Viewer, and get Calibre EBook reader. The former is great for marking up PDFs. (What I would love is software that turns PDF into something like Word . . . ) The latter can do some things to other formats. KFkairosfocus
February 23, 2013
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@ Kantian Naturalist (225) :) Talbott did put some distance between himself and Intelligent Design.
S.L.T.: Dawkins and Dennett sometimes seem fixated upon design, presumably as a result of their severely constraining preoccupation with religion and with the “creationism” or “intelligent design” promulgated by some religious folks. You will not find me speaking of design (although the word has its legitimate uses), simply because — as I’ve made abundantly clear in previous articles — organisms cannot be understood as having been designed, machine-like, whether by an engineer-God or a Blind Watchmaker elevated to god-like status. If organisms participate in a higher life, it is a participation that works from within — at a deep level the ancients recognized as that of the logos informing all things. It is a sharing of the springs of life and being, not a mere receptivity to some sort of external mechanical tinkering modeled anthropocentrically on human engineering.
Several times I have presented Talbott's holistic view as conflicting with Intelligent Design. Kairosfocus, for instance, is unimpressed. He doesn't believe that intelligent design excludes holism. Let me know what your view is on this matter.Box
February 23, 2013
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I've printed off copies of "Getting Over the Code Delusion," "The Unbearable Wholeness of Beings," "What Do Organisms Mean?", and "Evolution and the Illusion of Randomness". I believe I have a date with a cappuccino this afternoon.Kantian Naturalist
February 23, 2013
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@Kantian Naturalist (222) That is very good to hear. I'm personally very touched by the way Stephen L. Talbott writes about biology; see for instance The Unbearable Wholeness of Beings. I feel that a deep truth about life is being unfolded. Talbott also enters the philosophical arena. Maybe I have to read it again, but my enthusiasm was severely diminished. Do let me know what you think.Box
February 23, 2013
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One can’t underline a computer screen.
That's why I prefer to use a highlighter!Mung
February 23, 2013
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