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After Further Review, It Was Not Judge Jones Only

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Thank you very much to Bob OH for pointing me to a transcript of the Behe literature bluff at the Dover trial.  I have read the transcript in detail, and I now believe the Dover defendants’ lawyers should have made objections that they did not make.  Here are quotes from the Behe examination followed by the objections that should have been made (in bold):
 

Example 1:
 Q. But these articles do discuss immune systems that are different from the vertebrate immune system, correct?
 Objection your honor.  Hearsay.  If counsel would, one, lay a Rule 803(18) foundation that the articles to which he refers are authoritative and, two, read the exact portion he would like Professor Behe to comment on into the record, perhaps I will withdraw the objection.  It is improper for him to characterize the articles and then ask the witness to comment on his characterization.  That is not the way a Rule 803(18) impeachment is done.
 

Example 2:
 

Q. You said they’re [the articles are] referring to precursors, those precursors are precursors that have immune systems, correct? Just not the kind we have?
 

A. Well, I don’t think so. Transposons are thought to have arisen from I think bacterial-like elements which do not have immune systems, and so I’m not quite sure how to take your question.
 

Q. We’ll get back to that. Now, these articles rebut your assertion that scientific literature has no answers on the origin of the vertebrate immune system?
 OBJECTION.  Same objection as in Example 1.
 

Example 3 (the literature bluff):
 

Q. Professor Behe, what I have given you has been marked Plaintiff’s Exhibit 743 . . .

Q. And there are fifty-eight articles in here on the evolution of the immune system?

A. Yes. That’s what it seems to say . . .

Q. I’m going to read some titles here. We have Evolution of Immune Reactions by Sima and Vetvicka, are you familiar with that?

A. No, I’m not.

Objection, There is no foundation that this article is authoritative.  References to it are not admissible.
 

Q. Origin and Evolution of the Vertebrate Immune System, by Pasquier. Evolution and Vertebrate Immunity, by Kelso. The Primordial Vrm System and the Evolution of Vertebrate Immunity, by Stewart. The Phylogenesis of Immune Functions, by Warr. The Evolutionary Mechanisms of Defense Reactions, by Vetvicka. Immunity and Evolution, Marchalonias. Immunology of Animals, by Vetvicka. You need some room here. Can you confirm these are books about the evolution of the immune system?

A. Most of them have evolution or related words in the title, so I can confirm that, but what I strongly doubt is that any of these address the question in a rigorous detailed fashion of how the immune system or irreducibly complex components of it could have arisen by random mutation and natural selection.

Objection, There is no foundation that these articles are authoritative.  References to them prove nothing and are not admissible.
 

Q. There’s also books on the immune system that have chapters on the evolution of the immune system?

Objection:  Relevance and lack of foundation.  The general proposition that certain books have chapters that discuss the evolution of the immune system has nothing to with this witnesses’ testimony.  If counsel would like to lay a rule 803(18) foundation, then perhaps he can go forward with this line of questioning.
 

Q. I’m just going to read these titles, it sounds like you don’t even need to look at them?

A. Please do go ahead and read them.

Q. You’ve got Immune System Accessory Cells, Fornusek and Vetvicka, and that’s got a chapter called “Evolution of Immune Sensory Functions.” You’ve got a book called The Natural History of the Major Histocompatability Complex, that’s part of the immune system, correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And here we’ve got chapter called “Evolution.” Then we’ve got Fundamental Immunology, a chapter on the evolution of the immune system.

Objection.  The titles of the chapters are insufficient to lay an 803(18) impeachment foundation.  Counsel needs to show the witness exactly where in these chapters the authors write anything that conflicts with his testimony.
 

Q. You haven’t read those chapters?

A. No, I haven’t.

Q. You haven’t read the books that I gave you?

A. No, I haven’t. I have read those papers that I presented though yesterday on the immune system.

Q. And the fifty-eight articles, some yes, some no?

Objection.  If he has not read them, there is no Rule 803(18) foundation that they are authoritative.  All references to them should be stricken from the record.
 

Q. And then all these hard working scientists publish article after article over years and years, chapters and books, full books, addressing the question of how the vertebrate immune system evolved, but none of them are satisfactory to you for an answer to that question?

Objection:  Lack of foundation.  Counsel is testifying.  That is improper.  If he wants to impeach the witness with a leaned treatise, then he must lay a foundation that it is authoritative and then show him the specific portion of the writing that conflicts with his testimony. 
 

In summary, not only was Judge Jones wrong to rely on the literature bluff in his opinion, the defendants’ lawyers should have made the objections set forth above.  There was plenty of blame to go around.
 Another commenter from my prior post gave a baseball analogy:  “Calling the bluff now strikes me as being like the losing manager of last year’s world series complaining about his star player who was unfairly obstructed in the bottom of the 6th in game three . . . it’s a little late for that; the game’s been over for a while.”

No, I think these issues are still worth discussing.  Let me suggest a baseball analogy of my own.  This discussion is like the manager of last year’s losing team lamenting his wrong decision to put a left-handed reliever in in the 7th inning instead of a right-hander.  I’m going to learn from that mistake, he says to himself, and the next time I will do better.

There will be another ID case.  A person who may be an expert witness in that case reads this blog (it’s his blog after all).  We must be prepared and not repeat the mistakes made in Dover.  Having worked with experts for nearly 20 years, I feel qualified to give Bill some tips if he is ever called as an expert. 

1.  Never, ever accept an opposing lawyer’s characterization of anything.  A lawyer may say “This article says thus and so, what do you think about that?” Hopefully the lawyer for your side will get up on his hind legs (as lawyers say) and object.  But if he does not, do not fall into the trap that Behe fell into.  The only proper response is, “I have not read that article.  I have no opinion about what it says and I will not comment on it.”  That answer is bulletproof.  Some experts are hesitant to say this, because they think it makes them look less than perfectly knowledgeable about the field.  Don’t be.  No one has read every article in any field, and from an evidentiary perspective the answer is perfectly neutral.  It does not prove or disprove anything (assuming the article is not the definitive work in the field).

2.  If your lawyer does not call the literature bluff, feel free to call it yourself.  Q.  “These 58 articles and books refute your position don’t they?”  A. “I will not comment on what the 58 articles do or do not do as a group.  If you want to put them in front of me one at a time I will tell you whether I consider them to be authoritative.  Then, for each book or article that I consider to be authoritative, if you want to point out specific text for me to comment on, I will be happy to do so.”

3.  Never assume anything that benefits the opposition.  In one of his answers Behe said “I assume that is the case.”  This was a mistake.  If, for example, an article is entitled “A Detailed Account of the Evolution of the Immune System” don’t assume that the article even discusses the evolution of the immune system, much less that it provides any sort of account of its evolution.  My point here is that you should make the other side work for every point.  Don’t give them anything.

4.  Remember, you are smarter than the lawyer, but he is better at the cross examination game than you.  Don’t assume your vastly superior knowledge of the subject matter will allow you to beat him.  As Behe’s testimony demonstrates, this is not a safe assumption.  In Behe’s defense, his lawyers did not help his cause as much as they should have.  But don’t depend too much on the lawyers.  Be prepared to apply tips 1 and 2 even if your lawyers are sitting on their hands.

5.  Don’t be defensive.  Behe tried to defend the fact that he had not read the 58 articles.  There was no need to do that.  No one expects an expert to have read every article ever written about a subject, and there is no need to state the obvious.

6.  The best witness keeps coming back to his main point.  Hammer it in again and again.  It is OK to be monotonous.  Monotonous is what we want.  Nothing is more discouraging than for an expert to spew the other side’s case back at you every time you ask him a question.  When I come across a well-prepared expert like this, I try to get in a few zingers (there is always a zinger or two to be had) and sit down as soon as possible.

7.  Don’t let the other side get into a rhythm.  The best cross examiner never asks an open ended question.  He asks a bunch of questions that require only very brief answers.  He establishes a rhythm and leads the witness around by the nose.  Don’t play his game.  Break his rhythm.  Take as much time as you want to answer each question.  Pause before answering, and expand on your answers by applying tip 6 every chance you get.

Comments
BarryA: "your guess – which, by the way, you should call a “conclusion” now that you have performed a statistical analysis" Please do not attempt to put words in my mouth. I called it a guess, and I mean no more. I will once again ask you honestly: Do you think my guess is far off? Silence is also an answer. My guess is not based on prejudice. I've been following the ID/TOE discussions for a few years now. The dominant number of vocal ID proponents I come across on the internet are devout evangelicals. It's not called prejudice if they confess it themselves. I also do not call the religious language in the wedge document "prejudice". I understand that you choose to throw around strong rhetoric instead of information. And I know how influential it can be. This is why I truly fear ID. I don't fear it's content, I fear it's influential rhetoric. "It predicts events after they occur, then explains them with fanciful stories." The TOE predicted many transitional fossils. For example, Tiktallik, legged whales, etc. It predicted these fossils BEFORE they were found. It also predicted where to look for evidence of chromosomal fusion in the human genome. Think about that. The TOE demanded that chromosomal fusion took place. (We have 23, our ancestors had 24.) We checked the place in the chromosome it predicted, and there it was: evidence of chromosomal fusion. Those are just some extremely recent examples. Can you name anything that ID has predicted?Strangelove
August 10, 2006
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"All I know is that the TOE makes many falsifiable predictions..." It predicts events after they occur, then explains them with fanciful stories. "...delivers new avenue’s [sic] of research, and is useful in the lab" Ah yes, Darwinian theory has been so useful in the development of antibiotics, for example. "If I have to choose between a useful theory that explains the world..." The TOE is not useful; essentially no one uses it to produce anything of consequence. It is utterly ignored in the hard sciences, including the medical and other biological hard sciences, because it is useless when it comes to figuring out how real stuff works in the real world. Certainly there can be no question that the TOE explains the world: like how inanimate matter sprung into life spontaneously, and ended up producing Beethoven, his symphonies, and computers that play chess.GilDodgen
August 10, 2006
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Strangelove, “No, I didn’t take a survey. I lended [sic] a rough guess. Do you disagree with that guess?” I don’t disagree with your guess so much as I disagree with guessing in general when the guess is based on nothing but the guesser’s prejudices. “Two out of two owners of this blog are evangelicals.” I take back the last comment. Your guess was not based on your prejudices only. You have actually sampled the ID proponent population (we’ll set aside for the moment the fact that your sample is not statistically valid). You have based your guess – which, by the way, you should call a “conclusion” now that you have performed a statistical analysis – about the ID proponent population as a whole based upon a sample size of two. Undeterred by the fact that the standard deviation of your sample approaches zero, you have fearlessly made predictions about the rest of the ID proponent population. Bravo. “What is this commitment you speak of?” – sighs heavily – Nevermind.BarryA
August 10, 2006
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"Did you do a survey? You can’t simply make up statistics like that to support your argument." No, I didn't take a survey. I lended a rough guess. Do you disagree with that guess? Two out of two owners of this blog are evangelicals. I don't know about all of the posters and lurkers. The last I checked, most of the DI were evangelicals. Why else would they pick out the God of Christianity in their Wedge Document? "A commitment to metaphysical materialism is made on faith..." What is this commitment you speak of? I didn't sign anything. All I know is that the TOE makes many falsifiable predictions, delivers new avenue's of research, and is useful in the lab. ID makes absolutely no faslifiable predictions, offers no new research, and no one uses it. If I have to choose between a useful theory that explains the world, and a unusable theory that explains the world, I go with useful every time. Call me pragmatic.Strangelove
August 10, 2006
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Apollo230: "The Establishment Clause figured heavily in Judge Jones' decision, and will factor into any future judgment of Intelligent Design in the courts. ID must successfully distance itself from God to survive any subsequent legal scrutiny. Correct me if I'm wrong. First a premise: Let's consider the proposal that ID constitutes religion. Federal Judges' opinions (and the ACLU) aside, I feel it does not. Now some critical analysis: Religion is defined as a set of dogmas, rituals, and beliefs, backed by a belief in a 'deity'. A common descriptor of religion is, " A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader." These definitions are fairly specific, and are the most widely given by lexicon sources, but the most general description you'll find is, "Belief and reverence of a supernatural power or powers ... " Sorry guys, but nowhere in ID proposals does it stipulate that the interventionary agent is supernatural or divine, or even that it is existent and interventionary today. ID does look for evidence of design, or intent to cause, or help to cause, a particular result, but does not attempt to particularize who or what the causative agent was. There could have been many. So current ID definitions lean heavily on the possibility of 'intervention' rather than 'divine creation' per se. In the 90's, ID was rife with creationism undertones, as evidenced by the Wedge tome, and even stated goals by DI members and others. That no longer holds, even though there are YECs and religions groups seeking refuge in the ID tent, and may only have furtherance of their religion their only purpose. That said, who knows, maybe I'm a YEC. But personal beliefs based on faith don't enter into the field of study. The broad definition given ID by opponents is intended to keep 'design inference' from the realm of scientific inquiry. I am a Christian, by the way.leebowman
August 10, 2006
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As Denyse pointed out, Darwinism has become cultish. Literature bluffing is a dead giveaway that one's position is logically and evidentially indefensible. The use of the legal system to suppress public dissent is another indication of a cultish mindset. I am extraordinarily pleased that my literature-bluffing post ignited this discussion.GilDodgen
August 10, 2006
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*stands and applauds Barry for comment #17. hear hear!Scott
August 10, 2006
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Strangelove, “I would say over 90% [of supporters of ID] are devoutly religious.” Did you do a survey? You can’t simply make up statistics like that to support your argument. “I, for one, simply don’t see [any religious/metaphysical implications of TOE].” Willful blindness to the obvious of this sort never ceases to amaze me. You should take your faith commitments more seriously. Yes, I said “faith commitment.” A commitment to metaphysical materialism is made on faith, just as much as the most zealous fundamentalist makes a commitment to theism on faith – neither materialism nor theism can be demonstrated or falsified empirically. Michael Ruse, one of the leading lights of the Darwinist camp, understands the metaphysical implications of Darwinism. He wrote: "Now, for the first time, one could confidently suspend belief in any kind of God. The Natural development of organisms explains everything, most especially adaptation. Even if you did not want to become a full-blown atheist, you could become what Darwin’s already mentioned supporter, T.H. Huxley, labeled an ‘agnostic’, neither believer nor disbeliever (Huxley, 1900). However, excluding or distancing God in this fashion raises with some urgency the major problems of philosophy. If God (perhaps) does not exist, wherein lie the guarantees of knowledge and of truth? Possibly all is subjective illusion. If God does not exist, wherein lies the force of morality? Why should we not do precisely what we please, cheating and lying and stealing, to serve our own ends? Dry answers by philosophers aiming for purely secular answers tended not to convince. Evolution destroyed the final foundations of traditional belief. To many people, it was evolution that would provide the foundations of a new belief-system. Evolution would lead to a deeper and truer understanding of the problems of knowledge. Evolution would lead to a deeper and true understanding of the nature of morality. Thus were born (what are known now as) ‘evolutionary epistemology’ and ‘evolutionary ethics’." Michael Ruse, Taking Darwin Seriously: A Naturalistic Approach to Philosophy (Oxford Blackwell 1986), 30. “The TOE isn’t biased towards any particular religion.” Drivel. It is biased toward the cult of Darwinism, which has as its main tenant a commitment to materialism. Why else would Dawkins have said Darwin made it possible to be an intellectually fulfilled atheist.BarryA
August 10, 2006
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BarryA: "Why must ID distance itself from its religious/metaphysical implications when Darwinism gets a free pass on its religious/metaphysical implications?" The followers of ID are almost entirely Christian evangelicals. There are a few exceptions, true, but I would say over 90% are devoutly religious. People of all faiths, from Christians (clergy even) to Muslims to Taoists to Jews to Atheists support the TOE. It seems that the TOE has done a better job of distancing itself from any religious/metaphysical implications that you percieve. I, for one, simply don't see any. One could just as easily say "the TOE allows me to be an intellectually fulfilled Atheist" as the "Gee, God sure works in mysterious ways!" And people do just that. The TOE isn't biased towards any particular religion.Strangelove
August 10, 2006
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apollo230 “ID must successfully distance itself from God to survive any subsequent legal scrutiny . . .” Why must ID distance itself from its religious/metaphysical implications when Darwinism gets a free pass on its religious/metaphysical implications? As a matter of strategy, you are undoubtedly correct. ID should not lead with its chin, and that means continuing to insist that the scientific theory posits nothing about the nature of the designer. As a matter of logic, your argument holds no water.BarryA
August 10, 2006
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The Establishment Clause figured heavily in Judge Jones' decision, and will factor into any future judgment of Intelligent Design in the courts. ID must successfully distance itself from God to survive any subsequent legal scrutiny. I do not see how this could be done when ID has such frankly theological connotations. And do not kid me by saying it carries none. God will be one of the first things that pops into the mind of any judge receiving any ID primer, and that will immediately bring their scrutiny down on the ID party in question. A grass-roots campaign to promote this cause (via IDEA clubs on various campuses, etc) may be the only viable way to promote the cause, given the 90-degree slope facing any court efforts. Best regards, apollo230apollo230
August 10, 2006
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Sal, he was also guided by the film Inherit The Wind, which he rewatched as research.Charlie
August 10, 2006
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Joseph wrote: "It clearly appears to me that the judge was upset by the tactics and antics of the Dover school board and took it out on ID." I don't know how many were aware of this, but this tells what guided Jones' decision:
The Founders believed that true religion was not something handed down by a church or contained in a Bible, but was to be found through free, rational inquiry. .... these precepts and beliefs, grounded in my liberal arts education, guide me each day as a federal trial judge. Judge Jones Dickinson College Commencement 2006
Now you know what guided judge Jones. He essentially expressed the fact the Bible cannot contain true religion! Whether the Bible does or does not contain true religion is of course an important issue, but if a Judge by fiat has decided a priori that churches and the Bible are false religions, what hope of fairness can we get from Judge Jones. (I thank Casey Luskin and John West for pointing this out to me).scordova
August 10, 2006
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Joseph, I think you are partly right. Certainly Jones was offended by the Dover school board’s shenanigans. But I don’t think the outcome of the case would have been different even if the members of the board had been models of virtue and rectitude. As I mentioned in my previous post, there are two conditions for a fair test case: (1) a forum where ID can get a fair shake; and (2) squeaky clean parties. Neither condition was met in Dover. If the Dover school board had been beyond reproach, still only one condition would have been met. One commenter to my last post said in response to this observation something to the effect that the ID movement does not choose its test cases. I disagree. The Thomas Moore Law Center chose Dover as a test case and pushed it all the way through to judgment. That decision was improvident. Obviously, my counsel is not to some incorporeal “movement,” but to individuals who want to advance the goals of the movement.BarryA
August 10, 2006
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leebowman, Thank you for your insights. You ask, “Is it really true that Rothschild actually stacked up on the witness stand those articles and books, leaned over toward the witness, looked over his glasses and asked the leading question, “Is your position today that these articles aren’t good enough?” Yes, it really is true. As difficult as this is to credit, it really happened. “How and the hell do you counter non-specifics . . .?” The whole point of Rule 803(18) is that it is improper to even ask a witness to counter non-specifics. That is why the rule requires the portion of the learned treatise relied upon to be read into the record.BarryA
August 10, 2006
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Tom English: As embarrassing as the “mountain of literature” debacle was to Behe and the ID movement, it really had nothing to do with the outcome of the trial. What embarrassment? The real embarrassment will come when it is demonstrated the ACLU bluffed and Judge Jones bought it whole sale. Reading the judge's decision and understanding ID it makes me wonder what the heck this guy was listening to. It clearly appears to me that the judge was upset by the tactics and antics of the Dover school board and took it out on ID.Joseph
August 10, 2006
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Tom English: As embarrassing as the “mountain of literature” debacle was to Behe and the ID movement, it really had nothing to do with the outcome of the trial. What embarrassment? The real embarrassment will come went it is demonstrated the ACLU bluffed and Judge Jones bought it whole sale. Reading the judge's decision and understanding ID it makes me wonder what the heck this guy was listening to. It clearly appears to me that the judge was upset by the tactics and antics of the Dover school board and took it out on ID.Joseph
August 10, 2006
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Tom English I concur that any objection to the admission of the evidence was probably waived by defendants’ counsel’s failure to object at trial and therefore could not have been a grounds for appeal. I say “probably waived” because of the “fundamental error” doctrine, which trumps Rule 103. Nevertheless, I still maintain that no competent judge would have given the “literature bluff” evidence any weight in his ruling. That is why I now say that both the judge and the lawyers erred.BarryA
August 10, 2006
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" … I now believe the Dover defendants' lawyers should have made objections that they did not make." Absolutely right, and I've seen trials (in movies as well as in real life) where after a particular question was given to a witness, the judge looks over at the opposing attorney as if to say, "Aren't you going to object?" Agreed that it's tough to be able to instantly object, followed by your qualifying argument/point. That's where preparation comes in, i.e. anticipating the opposition's questions and having a ready response. Apparently that wasn't done. Is it really true that Rothschild actually stacked up on the witness stand those articles and books, leaned over toward the witness, looked over his glasses and asked the leading question, "Is your position today that these articles aren't good enough?" Dead silence for a moment, and it must have brought a few smiles from Tammy Kitzmiller and her friends (conjectural). I can see all kinds of grounds for an objection to that question. Another point regarding the 58 articles and 9 books. Did not the defense have the opportunity to examine them ahead of time, and have the opportunity to ask for specific citations? How and the hell do you counter non-specifics, without appearing to be 'just so' dismissive of those works in toto, since they were peer reviewed, and by reputable 'authoritative' sources?? Short of that, the objections Barry posed should have been given. Any thoughts on what the plaintiff attorney might have countered the objections with, or if the judge would have overruled?leebowman
August 10, 2006
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ejruff, Thank you for your comment. Your experience at a deposition is slightly different from testimony at trial. It is perfectly true, as you say, that a witness can never score points at a deposition, and I say this same thing to deponents all the time. I tell them that every thing you say at your deposition will fall into one of two categories. (1) neutral or (2) bad. Testimony in category 1 will never again see the light of day. Testimony in category 2 will be used to beat you about the head and shoulders at trial. Here is the difference between deposition testimony and trial testimony. The fact finder (some cases a judge, some cases a jury) is not present at a deposition. The fact finder is present at the trial, and that is where your testimony as an expert will make points – indeed, making points with the fact finder is why you are there.BarryA
August 10, 2006
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tribune7: "You think this stuff might be enough to overturn the decision?" The theme of this thread is "bad counsel." You generally cannot appeal on that basis. And only the Dover Area School District could have appealed. The board members who got the District sued by parents were voted out of office, so there was no one in DASD to pursue an appeal. BarryA: "The time for filing an appeal in the Dover case has long since passed by and that is no longer an option." Furthermore, from the federal rules of evidence: "Rule 103. Rulings on Evidence (a) Effect of erroneous ruling. Error may not be predicated upon a ruling which admits or excludes evidence unless a substantial right of the party is affected, and (1) Objection. - In case the ruling is one admitting evidence, a timely objection or motion to strike appears of record, stating the specific ground of objection, if the specific ground was not apparent from the context…." Judge Jones gives only two sentences of commentary to the portion of the testimony Barry treats here, and deleting them would lead to no change in his findings. As embarrassing as the "mountain of literature" debacle was to Behe and the ID movement, it really had nothing to do with the outcome of the trial.Tom English
August 10, 2006
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tribune 7 As I mentioned in my post, this analysis is more in the nature of a post-mortem. The time for filing an appeal in the Dover case has long since passed by and that is no longer an option. My purpose is to draw lessons from the case so that future ID experts and lawyers can avoid the mistakes that were made in Dover.BarryA
August 10, 2006
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Barry, You think this stuff might be enough to overturn the decision?tribune7
August 10, 2006
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It's too bad the lawyers missed this, but I agree there is LOTS to learn from this case and the many analyses of it that can and will be used successfully in future cases. Another point for any witness to consider is that you can never score points from the witness seat, you can only lose them. All these tips are right on. (BTW, I have no legal background, but was deposed as a key witness in a software patent case for 10 days, and had some pretty good training which mirrored the above - and it ultimately worked for us.)ejruff
August 10, 2006
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