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Alfred Russel Wallace vs. Charles Darwin on cruelty in nature

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In World of Life, Alfred Russel Wallace, Darwin’s co-theorist, directly addressed one of Darwin’s key reasons for rejecting design in nature, in a letter to American supporter Asa Gray:

With respect to the theological view of the question; this is always painful to me.— I am bewildered.— I had no intention to write atheistically. But I own that I cannot see, as plainly as others do, & as I shd wish to do, evidence of design & beneficence on all sides of us. There seems to me too much misery in the world. I cannot persuade myself that a beneficent & omnipotent God would have designedly created the Ichneumonidæ with the express intention of their feeding within the living bodies of caterpillars, or that a cat should play with mice. Not believing this, I see no necessity in the belief that the eye was expressly designed. On the other hand I cannot anyhow be contented to view this wonderful universe & especially the nature of man, & to conclude that everything is the result of brute force. I am inclined to look at everything as resulting from designed laws, with the details, whether good or bad, left to the working out of what we may call chance. Not that this notion at all satisfies me. I feel most deeply that the whole subject is too profound for the human intellect. A dog might as well speculate on the mind of Newton.— Let each man hope & believe what he can.— (Letter 2814 — Darwin, C. R. to Gray, Asa, 22 May [1860])

Now, Darwin was a slippery character, as biographers have acknowledged, and he had been a materialist atheist long before he had any theory of evolution to propose, so his pretense of coming to these conclusions reluctantly was just that – a pretense. (See Flannery on this.)

However, Wallace addresses both examples in The World of Life. With respect to insects, he notes,

There is, of course, a large body of facts which indicate that whole classes of animals, though very highly organized, suffer nothing which can be called pain, as in the insects; and similar facts show us that even the highest warm-blooded animals suffer very much less than we do. (P. 185)

Now, re insects, Wallace is surely right, and I have never been much impressed by Darwin’s example of the Ichneumon wasp laying its larvae in caterpillars. There is little evidence that the caterpillar knows or cares that it simultaneously gorges and is gorged. Whether a given caterpillar pupates or dies is not an instance of any great evil in the world, provided no ecology is upset.

About “the highest, warm-blooded” animals, I am not so sure. However, one source of human suffering that animals don’t have is a “metacognitive” understanding of their condition. That is, the old dog Rover may think, ”I feel sick. I have no appetite, no energy. I just want to sleep all the time.” His people know, “Rover has an inoperable cancer. Sedatives and painkillers for now. Later, we must make a decision …” Rover is forever barred from knowing the nature of his condition, in the human, metacognitive sense, so there are many sources of suffering he simply cannot experience.

With respect to cats, Wallace notes, “It must be remembered that in a state of nature the Carnivora hunt and kill to satisfy hunger, not for amusement; and all conclusions derived from the house-fed cat and mouse are fallacious.” (p. 181)

One might add that the biggest worry for a wild cat or other small carnivore that its catch might be stolen by a bigger animal. Swallowing the prey whole is a common preventive tactic. (The prey may be disgorged later, of course, for offspring – but meanwhile, it is secure down the hatch.)

See Michael A. Flannery’s Alfred Russel Wallace’s Theory of Intelligent Evolution (Erasmus, 2009) for more.

Comments
vjtorley Fair enough. I have to ask though, (puts on Tina Turner costume) what's love got to do with it? A deity could be entirely devoid of emotion, they just need to have created a universe that is consistent and which produced reliable human thinkers. Loving them is just a bonus.BillB
July 24, 2009
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BillB You wrote:
I should just clarify - the FACT of the existence of a deity that does not deceive and made us with trustworthy minds would mean that we can trust our minds, we are just stuck with the problem of how we can really know if this is the case.
Thanks for your clarifying remark. If you are asking me whether I can logically demonstrate the impossibility of the alternatives (which would lead to skepticism), let me say up front that I cannot. What tips the balance for me are three things. First, on a personal level, we do need to grapple with the big questions. We cannot ignore them. We have to make up our minds where we stand on the issues. Second, science is predicated on the assumption that we can think straight when investigating the cosmos, and that the cosmos is the sort of thing that is amenable to straight thinking (i.e. scientific investigation). The only thing that can systematically guarantee that our minds won't go wonky when investigating the universe, and that the universe will "behave itself" when we try to understand it, is a Deity Who is by nature loving (and hence friendly to inquiring minds), and Who made the cosmos for us to understand. Third, the universe is not the sort of thing that looks like it can explain itself. Everything about it screams: contingent! It seems reasonable to ask where the cosmos came from. If I believe in a God Who made it all, I don't have to worry about answering 100 skeptical questions before I eat breakfast.vjtorley
July 24, 2009
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I should just clarify - the FACT of the existence of a deity that does not deceive and made us with trustworthy minds would mean that we can trust our minds, we are just stuck with the problem of how we can really know if this is the case.BillB
July 23, 2009
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The problem does not apply to people who believe in libertarian free will. Nor does it apply to people who believe in a God who is by nature incapable of deceiving His creatures about the great existential questions: Who are we? Whence came we? Whither go we?
How do I know you're not deluded when you make those claims? Simply claiming "I believe in a certain type of deity" or "I believe in libertarian free will" does not suddenly remove any delusional blinkers you might have. The problem applies to all and is insoluble - even if God announced that it exists and does not deceive, you are still left with the possibility that this was a lie or that you are hallucinating. The problem does not apply to people who believe in X Simply believing in something does not make it true.BillB
July 23, 2009
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BillB You wrote:
The basic problem of ‘how do I know I’m not deluded’ applies to theists and atheists, materialists and non-materialists equally.
Not so. This problem applies to those who believe either that (i) our thoughts are produced by processes which have no inherent tendency to generate truthful results, or that (ii) our thoughts are generated by a super-human Entity who is capable of deceiving us. The problem does not apply to people who believe in libertarian free will. Nor does it apply to people who believe in a God who is by nature incapable of deceiving His creatures about the great existential questions: Who are we? Whence came we? Whither go we? The problem you cited does not totally invalidate reason for Darwinistic atheists. However, it does narrow its scope of guaranteed reliability to mundane matters related to survival. Only here could we be fairly sure of arriving at conclusions which corresponded with the facts.vjtorley
July 23, 2009
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Lock, --And your brain? Is that just chemicals also? Doing what chemicals do? More like electrical signals, I guess. Which makes your brain move your hand off the stove. This is an instinct, to avoid pain, not some journey into consciousness. I acknowledge humans have that over animals, but pain is pain. --Perhaps it is. Let us suppose it is. Then what ‘real’ reason do we have to consider causing pain to animals to be wrong? Because it hurts them!the_napkin
July 23, 2009
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if my mental processes are determined wholly by the motions of atoms in my brain I have no reason to suppose that my beliefs are true.
The existence, or lack of existence of God doesn't help much here. You can re-write is as follows: if my mental processes are determined partly by the motions of atoms in my brain and partly by some unknown entity I have no reason to suppose that my beliefs are true. Or as: if my mental processes are determined wholly by some unknown entity I have no reason to suppose that my beliefs are true. The basic problem of 'how do I know I'm not deluded' applies to theists and atheists, materialists and non-materialists equally.BillB
July 23, 2009
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Seversky, I find myself in the privilaged position of having to thank you once again for a confirmation. :D After reading that, I have to say that Darwin was a more consistent philosopher than many of the pop-darwinists of today. The problem is not new. And cannot be so. "For if my mental processes are determined wholly by the motions of atoms in my brain I have no reason to suppose that my beliefs are true… And hence I have no reason for supposing my brain to be composed of atoms." (J.B.S. Haldane / When I am Dead) “…Unless human reasoning is valid, no science can be true. It follows that no account of the universe can be true unless that account leaves it possible for our thinking to be a real insight. A theory which explained everything else in the whole universe but which made it impossible to believe our thinking was valid, would be utterly out of court. For that theory itself would have been arrived at by thinking, and if thinking is not valid that theory would, of course, be itself demolished. It would have destroyed its own credentials. It would be an argument which proved no argument was sound -a proof that there are no such things as proofs- which is nonsense.” ( C.S. Lewis / Miracles / Chap 3 The Cardinal difficulty of Naturalism pgs 21,22 )Lock
July 23, 2009
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Now, Darwin was a slippery character, as biographers have acknowledged, and he had been a materialist atheist long before he had any theory of evolution to propose, so his pretense of coming to these conclusions reluctantly was just that - a pretense. (See Flannery on this.)
Not as "slippery" as journalists on whom, as mentioned previously, it would be unwise to place sole reliance as accurate reporters of 'truth', scientific or otherwise. Compare the above with this excerpt from a longer passage from Darwin's Autobiography to be found here
Another source of conviction in the existance of God connected with the reason and not the feelings, impresses me as having much more weight. This follows from the extreme difficulty or rather impossibility of conceiving this immense and wonderful universe, including man with his capability of looking far backwards and far into futurity, as the result of blind chance or necessity. When thus reflecting I feel compelled to look at a first cause having an intelliegent mind in some degree analogous to that of man; and I deserve to be called a theist. This conclusion[6] was strong in my mind about the time, as far I can remember, when I wrote the Origin of species; and it is since that time that it has very gradually with many fluctuations become weaker. But then arises the doubt -- can the mind of man, which has, as I fully believe, been developed from a mind as low as the possessed by the lowest animal, be trusted when it draws such a grand conclusions? May not these be the result of the connection between cause and effect which strikes us as a necessary one, but probably depends merely on inherited experience? Nor must we overlook the probability of the constant inculcation in a belief in God on the minds of children producing so strong and perhaps an inherited effect on their brains not yet fully developed, that it would be as difficult for them to throw off their belief in God, as for a monkey to throw off its instinctive fear and hatred of a snake.[7] I cannot pretend to throw the least light on such abstruse problems. The mystery of the beginning of all things is insoluble to us; and I for one must be content to remain an Agnostic.
Seversky
July 23, 2009
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the-napkin writes: "Why is pain irrelevant if God is taken from the picture? As an atheist, I feel a burning hot stove the same way a fundamental Christian or Muslim. I think you’ve really turned this post around into something it needn’t be. Animals feel pain. Just like humans. God or no God. It’s the same pain telling us to move our burnt hand. Pain is a sensation. Just like touch, sight, smell, etc. Pain is a biological/chemical action that tells your brain to stop doing whatever it is you’re doing and focus on pain." Oh yes, I am familiar... And your brain? Is that just chemicals also? Doing what chemicals do? Is the intellectual discontinuity you sense, when I talk about God being needed to address pain consistently, not really pain? Is it is just chemicals? Perhaps it is. Let us suppose it is. Then what 'real' reason do we have to consider causing pain to animals to be wrong? If I am understanding you, that sort of judgement would simply be our brains (made up of chemicals) doing what chemicals do, albeit a continuously evolving architechture of social constructs and feelings. And what a puzzling mess it is no? I once loved (nay- cherished) the puzzling beauty of it all. Furthermore, if that is so, then my belief that God is needed is just as natural and valid, since that is what my chemicals do. All of this reasoning is automatic. We are really not conscious of each other the way we so foolishly suppose. It is atom meet atom, not Adam meet Adam. Of course, no, even that is just my chemicals dancing with Dawkinian glee. You might as well not read this at all. Except that you must because you are. And you are because of the chemical cascade that you are. Well napkin, perhaps I am thinking too deep. I personally believe that you are thinking much too conveniently shallow. But my chemicals and yours are just different I guess. I mean... that is what my chemicals told me to think. Of course don't be offended by the logic. I know you are not suggesting all that. You just see no need to reconcile things in contradiction like consciousness and matter. You accept both as realities and their resolution is simply a mystery too deeply twisted between sociology and physics to worry much about. Animals feel pain. That's it! I do too. And Hitler killed Jews. Some people love their neighbors. Others eat them. Comets fly past earth now and then. And it is July 23rd. Or so they say...Lock
July 23, 2009
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The vast majority of suffering by man is inflicted by his fellows, and without the bit that occurs via nature, the cruelty of man would be unbearable.tribune7
July 23, 2009
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I'd just like to jump in here, if I may. I did my Ph.D. thesis on animal minds. You can view it online at http://www.angelfire.com/linux/vjtorley/Anatomy.pdf if you wish. For a discussion of which animals possess subjective awareness and are capable of experiencing pain, I suggest you have a look at pages 93 to 109 of my thesis. Although it was a philosophy thesis, I corresponded with many scientists who were doing research on animal learning and animal consciousness. I also did a lot of reading on animal pain. Here's the skinny. Nociception - an averse reaction to noxious stimuli - is very widespread in the animal kingdom. Practically all animals have it. (Sharks and sponges are among the few exceptions.) However, there is a ton of neurological research showing that nociception and the subjective experience of pain are two entirely separate things. There's some pretty solid evidence that a certain level of interconnectivity in the brain is a prerequisite for being able to have a subjective experience of anything. Rose's article below, "The Neurobehavioral Nature of Fishes," is worth reading on this point. There's good neurological evidence for pain in mammals. The article that gets cited a lot here is one by Stoerig and Cowey on blindsight in humans and monkeys, which is in the bibliography below. There's good behavioral evidence for subjective awareness in mammals, too. Jaak Panksepp has done a lot of research showing how similar emotional responses are across mammals. His articles on laughter in rats and on the pain of social loss in mammals are definitely worth reading. Once we start talking about animals other than mammals, the case for consciousness gets a lot weaker, as their brains are much less complex. Recently the case for awareness in birds has been firming up, as evidence mounts that their neural organization, while very different from that of mammals, is comparable in complexity. The articles by Seth and by Edelman are very informative on the current state of play. A few researchers, like Cabanac, think that reptiles are capable of a primitive form of consciousness, and recently there has been speculation of consciousness in octopuses and lobsters. this is still very contentious, and Rose's article deserves to be read very carefully, as well as the articles by neurologists in the bibliography below. As regards the theological problem of animal suffering, I think the case of the wasps is unpersuasive, but I am troubled by suffering experienced by mammals and birds. A good God would not have made the world like that, in my opinion. I think the possibility of Satanic interference needs to be taken more seriously by ID researchers. We also have to clarify which parts of the creation would be immune from such interference - e.g. laws of physics and chemistry, biochemistry of DNA. Gotta go now. Here's a bibliography on animal consciousness. I've tried to ensure that the links are up-to-date. Baars, B. 2001. "There are no known differences in fundamental brain structures between humans and other animals." In Animal Welfare, 2000. Web address: http://cogprints.ecs.soton.ac.uk/archive/00000912/00/UFAW_PAPER_final_version_July_12_2000.txt Baars, B. 2003a. "Unconscious states cast light on consciousness: Evidence from persistent vegetative states (PVS)." In Science and Consciousness Review, 2003, January, No. 3. Web address: http://brainmeta.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=5973 Butler A., Manger P., Lindahl B. and Arhem P. 2005. “Evolution of the neural basis of consciousness: a bird-mammal comparison.” In Bioessays (September 2005), 27(9): 923-36. Web address of abstract: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=16108067&dopt=Abstract Butler A. and Cotterill R. 2006. “Mammalian and Avian Neuroanatomy and the Question of Consciousness in Birds.” In The Biological Bulletin 211: 106-127. (October 2006). Web address: http://www.biolbull.org/cgi/reprint/211/2/106 Cabanac, M. 1996. "On the Origin of Consciousness, a Postulate and its Corollary." In Neuroscience and Biobehavioral Reviews, Vol. 20, Issue 1, Spring 1996, pp. 33-40. Web address of abstract: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8622827?dopt=Abstract Cabanac, M. 1999. "Emotion and Phylogeny." In Japanese Journal of Physiology, 1999 Feb., 49(1):1-10. Web address of abstract: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10219103?dopt=Abstract Cabanac, M. 2002. "What is emotion?" In Behavioral Processes, Vol. 60, No. 2, November-December 2002, pp. 69-83. Web address of abstract: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12426062?dopt=Abstract Cabanac, M. 2003. "Pleasure of Taste and Phylogeny." Presentation given at Columbia University Seminar on Appetitive Behavior (#529) on Thursday, May 8, 2003. Web address: http://www.nyorc.org/may_2003.html Carruthers, P. 2001. Article: "Consciousness, Higher-Order Theories of." In Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy. Web address of current article: http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/consciousness-higher/ . Web address of original article: http://plato.stanford.edu/archives/sum2001/entries/consciousness-higher/ Carruthers, P. 2004. "On being simple minded". In American Philosophical Quarterly, 2004, 41(33):205-220. Also in Carruthers, P. 2005. Consciousness: Essays from a Higher-Order Perspective. OUP. (Chapter 12, pp. 215-248). Web address: http://www.philosophy.umd.edu/Faculty/pcarruthers/Simple-minds.pdf Carruthers, P. 2004. "Why the question of animal consciousness might not matter very much." In Philosophical Psychology 17 (2004). Web address: http://www.philosophy.umd.edu/Faculty/pcarruthers/animal-consciousness-might-not-matter.pdf Crick F., Koch, C. 1998. "Consciousness and Neuroscience." In Cerebral Cortex, 8:97-107, 1998. Web address: http://www.klab.caltech.edu/~koch/crick-koch-cc-97.html Crick F., Koch C. 2003. "A Framework for Consciousness." In Nature Neuroscience, Vol. 6, No. 2, February 2003, pp. 119-126. Web address: http://www.klab.caltech.edu/~koch/crick-koch-03.pdf Edelman D., Baars B. and Seth A. 2005. "Identifying Hallmarks of Consciousness in Non-Mammalian Species." In Consciousness and Cognition 2005 Mar;14(1):169-87. Web address: http://tgpummer.googlepages.com/ConsciousnessInNon-mammals.pdf Koch C., Crick F. 2001. "The neural basis of consciousness." In: The International Encyclopedia of the Social and Behavioral Sciences, Smelser, N. and Baltes, P., eds., Vol. 4, pp. 2600-2604. Elsevier, Oxford, United Kingdom. Web address: http://www.klab.caltech.edu/~koch/Elsevier-NCC.html Koch, C. 2003. "The Quest for Consciousness - A Neurobiological Approach". 2003. Englewood (Colorado): Roberts and Company Publishers. Web address: http://www.questforconsciousness.com/ Laureys S., Owen A. M. and Schiff N. D. 2004. “Brain function in coma, vegetative state, and related disorders.” In The Lancet, Neurology, Vol. 3, pp. 537-546, September 2004. Web address of abstract: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15324722?dopt=Citation Laureys S. 2005. “The neural correlate of (un)awareness: lessons from the vegative state.” In Trends in Cognitive Science, Vol. 9, No. 12, pp. 556-559, December 2005. Web address of abstract: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16271507?dopt=Citation Miller, G. 1999. "Does the savagery of predation in nature show that God either isn't, or at least isn't good-hearted?" Web address: http://www.christian-thinktank.com/pred2.html (The article contains an interesting, well-researched discussion of animal sentience.) Myers P. Z. 2005. Online blog: “Bird Brains.” 9 September, 2005. Web address: http://pharyngula.org/index/weblog/comments/bird_brains/ Panksepp J., Burgdorf J. 2003. "'Laughing' rats and the evolutionary antecedents of human joy?" In Physiology and Behavior, 79 (2003), pp. 533-547. Web address: http://caspar.bgsu.edu/~courses/Reading/Papers/2003PanBur.pdf Panksepp, J. 2003. "Feeling the Pain of Social Loss." In Science, Volume 302, 10 October 2003, pp. 237-239. Web address: http://www.scn.ucla.edu/pdf/PankseppPerspective.pdf Panksepp, J. 2003. "At the interface of the affective, behavioral, and cognitive neurosciences: Decoding the emotional feelings of the brain." In Brain and Cognition, 52(2003):4-14. Elsevier Science (USA). Web address: http://www.psychomedia.it/rapaport-klein/Panksepp-ABCs_of_Affect_03.pdf Panksepp, J. 2003. "The Peri-Conscious Substrates of Affective Consciousness." In Psyche, vol. 9 no. 15, December 2003. Web address: http://psyche.cs.monash.edu.au/symposia/mangan/panksepp.html Rose, J. D. 2002. "The Neurobehavioural Nature of Fishes and the Question of Awareness and Pain." In Reviews in Fisheries Science, vol. 10, issue 1, pp. 1-38. Web address: http://www.animal-health-online.de/drms/rosefish.pdf or http://www.nal.usda.gov/awic/pubs/Fishwelfare/Rose.pdf Rose, J. D. 2002. "Do Fish Feel Pain?" Online article. Web address: http://www.g-feuerstein.com/Presse/fishpain.htm Rose, J. D. 2003a. "A critique of the paper: 'Do fish have nociceptors: Evidence for the evolution of a vertebrate sensory system' published in Proceedings of the Royal Society, 2003 by Sneddon, Braithwaite and Gentle." Reprinted online by United States Department of Agriculture, in its list of publications on fish welfare. Web address: http://www.nal.usda.gov/awic/pubs/Fishwelfare/RoseC.pdf Rose, J. D. 2003b. "A rebuttal to the paper: 'Do fish have nociceptors: Evidence for the evolution of a vertebrate sensory system' published in Proceedings of the Royal Society, 2003 by Sneddon, Braithwaite and Gentle." Published online in In Depth, second quarter, 2003. In Depth is the official newsletter of the Amateur Fishermen’s Association of the Northern Territory. Web address: http://www.afant.com.au/newsletter/pdf/Indepth%202nd%20quarter%202003.pdf Seth A., Baars B. and Edelman D. 2005. Criteria for consciousness in humans and other mammals. In Consciousness and Cognition, March 2005; 14(1):119-39. Web address: http://pissaro.soc.huji.ac.il/~leon/mivnim/pdfs/sethcriteria.pdf Shewmon D., Holmes G. and Byrne P. 1999. "Consciousness in congenitally decorticate children: developmental vegetative state as self-fulfilling prophecy?" In Developmental Medicine & Child Neurology (1999), vol. 41, pp. 364-374. Web address: http://hydranencephaly.com/researchresults.htm Sneddon L., Braithwaite V. & Gentle M. (2003) "Do fish have nociceptors? Evidence for the evolution of a vertebrate sensory system." In Proceedings of the Royal Society of London B, (June 7, 2003), vol. 1270 (no. 1520): 1115-1121. Web address: http://www.animalliberationfront.com/Practical/Fishing--Hunting/Fishing/fishfeelpain.pdf Stoerig, P. and Cowey, A. 1997. "Blind-sight in man and monkey." In Brain (1997), 120(3), pp. 535-559. Web address: http://brain.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/120/3/535 Tononi, G. 2004. “Consciousness and the brain: theoretical aspects.” In Encyclopedia of Neuroscience (on-line), 2004. Web address: http://www.jsmf.org/meetings/2003/nov/consciousness_encyclopedia_2003.pdf Van Gulick. 2004. Article: "Consciousness". In The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy (Fall 2004 Edition), Edward N. Zalta (ed.). Web address of original article: http://plato.stanford.edu/archives/fall2004/entries/consciousness/ Update since 2007, when I submitted my thesis. Barr S., Laming P., Dick J. and Elwood R. 2008. "Nociception or pain in a decapod crustacean?" In Animal Behavior, Volume 75, issue 3, March 2008, Pages 745-751. Web address: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6W9W-4PYYGC8-5&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=dad981768dd9e3e86c16c126526fa709 MSNBC report. "Lobsters and crabs feel pain, study shows" by Jennifer Viegas. Web address: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29915025/vjtorley
July 23, 2009
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--How can we call anything painful (in the negative sense) without invoking some metaphysical notion of what reality was meant to be? If it is painful only because we perceive it as such, then we might as well say it isn’t really painful. I think you're searching too deep on this. Pain is a sensation. Just like touch, sight, smell, etc. Pain is a biological/chemical action that tells your brain to stop doing whatever it is you're doing and focus on pain. Pain is REAL. You don't need to dip into metaphysics to explain it or feel it. Pain means something bad is happening. --If God is taken from the picture, we are left only with what is. In that case, it seems to me that all the talk of pain is irrelevant. The universe is full of violence from cataclysmic black holes devouring entire solar systems, to mosquitos feeding on the blood of their host. WHY? Why is pain irrelevant if God is taken from the picture? As an atheist, I feel a burning hot stove the same way a fundamental Christian or Muslim. I think you've really turned this post around into something it needn't be. Animals feel pain. Just like humans. God or no God. It's the same pain telling us to move our burnt hand.the_napkin
July 23, 2009
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Why is it that Russel Wallace and the like do not consider the other angle by which to interpret what Darwin saw (change in species)? The darwinist worldview (particularly when used to explain origins) has an implied direction. All the arguments against that assertion are utter nonsense with regard to origins (abiogenesis). Maybe things did not start out this way (or to such violent extremes) and have fallen in nature. That is what the Bible clearly enunciates, especially with regard to the nature of man. If God is taken from the picture, we are left only with what is. In that case, it seems to me that all the talk of pain is irrelevant. The universe is full of violence from cataclysmic black holes devouring entire solar systems, to mosquitos feeding on the blood of their host. How can we call anything painful (in the negative sense) without invoking some metaphysical notion of what reality was meant to be? If it is painful only because we perceive it as such, then we might as well say it isn't really painful. Without some form of moral judgement, there is simply no such thing as pain. Now, on the other hand, if there is a Biblical God, by giving man free will to some degree, He inevitably allowed for all of this and is ultimately responsible. That line of reasoning came up in a conversation I once had. A man was appalled at the notion that any real God would condemn him. "I have a real problem with any God who would condemn me for the way he made me", were his exact words. He had a point. We are definitely products of our DNA and environment. And all of it preceded us. We did not get to choose what reality to be born into. Not knowing how to reply we went back to work. A few minutes later(and after much prayer and thought) I asked him, "So, are you saying that a real God would take responsibility for all of our sins?" It was Richard Dawkins who said, "there is no such thing as good and bad, we are all just dancing to our DNA". In response, Ravi Zacharius asks, "How much more relevant then, are the words of Jesus that we must be born again?" For every legitimate question, there is a legitimate answer by God. For every illegitimate question and assertion God has a question of his own to define the legitimate context which has been missed. The problem of pain is a real theological issue. Let us endeavor to take it seriously if we wish to analyse it. The Bible says we live in a decaying world (universe, cosmos et al). And God knows full well the pain involved as he bore the shear weight of His responsibility on the cross. I can understand why people look at such a inigma as the corss with confusion. I certainly do not fully understand it. But what I do not understand is a total lack of respect and discounting of something so epic and mysterious which just happens to make sense in ways I once never took the time to investigate. As someone once said, 'it is not the things I do not understand about the Bible that concern me. It is the things I do'. If you really want to think seriously about, start with C.S. Lewis' book, 'The problem of pain'. It's a nice start for the layman like myself.Lock
July 23, 2009
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Don't get me wrong, I'm all for bashing Darwin when it's appropriate, but the OP just looks to be searching for some way, however weak or convoluted, to explain how Wallace was right and Darwin was wrong on the issue of suffering. At least Darwin shows some humility and compassion in his letter; I'm not going comment on Wallace's quote since I haven't seen the context, but if you compare the two passages, the difference is quite striking.herb
July 23, 2009
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"There is, of course, a large body of facts which indicate that whole "classes of animals, though very highly organized, suffer nothing which can be called pain" I think it's trying to say that since animals don't know the nature of their pain (metacognition), it's less for them. It's false though, obviously. The whole argument is. Just because humans know the causes of pain, does not make that feeling any less intense (or painful).the_napkin
July 23, 2009
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I have a feeling the conclusion is supposed to be that there's less pain in nature than is supposed by some; not that there's literally NO pain below the human level...PhilosophyFan
July 23, 2009
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Thanks herb, I want to add on to some of that that too. Is the premise here that since God created all animals in nature, He would not let them suffer? You want to talk about suffering in nature? Watch a video of an antelope being eaten by an Anaconda. Every time the antelope breathes out, it is constricted more, forcing air out of its lungs. The death is long, and most definitely painful. To look at nature and say it is without cruelty is to only look at its best half. For every beautiful act of nature there is an equally cruel one. Every miraculous and awe-inspiring birth there is an equally gruesome death. Do not sell your God short by attempting to show there's no suffering that he "designed." It is everywhere.the_napkin
July 23, 2009
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"the_napkin" (#1) wrote: "Animals feel pain and can suffer. Just like humans can. They do so because the sensation of pain has allowed for the survival of the species." Even animals as primitive as flatworms, which barely have a brain and nervous system, can be observed to avoid electric shock...most likely because it is painful. (Can you hypothesize other reasons for an animal to avoid electric shock?)PaulBurnett
July 23, 2009
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I’m afraid this argument could lead to a slippery slope of animal cruelty. “If God made animals unable to feel pain, then it doesn’t matter how we kill them.” (the state of industrial farming can attest to this.)
I'm going to have to agree with the_napkin here, and to an extent Darwin(!). There really is a lot of cruelty in nature, whether it inovlves humans or not. And we are responsible for a great deal of animal suffering. Factory farms, veal and foie gras production, and so forth are immoral and should be eliminated. I really think that it won't be long until substantial numbers of people turn away from using "higher, warm-blooded" animals as food.herb
July 23, 2009
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You kick a dog, it is hurt, it yelps. Yelping is a display of pain. That is why people go to prison for animal cruelty. Animals in nature feel pain. If they did not, they would not survive. The sensation of pain helps animals survive. Pain = Fight or Flight Instinct. The conclusion that God let animals be without pain is a real Croc'. Step on a cat next time you're around one. I'm afraid this argument could lead to a slippery slope of animal cruelty. "If God made animals unable to feel pain, then it doesn't matter how we kill them." (the state of industrial farming can attest to this.) Animals feel pain and can suffer. Just like humans can. They do so because the sensation of pain has allowed for the survival of the species.the_napkin
July 23, 2009
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