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Alice In Wonderland

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The debate is over.

Thus we are told by the Darwinian establishment. Of course, the debate is not over by definition, because debate continues. What this really means is that “evolution” is a fact, and the “fact” of evolution does not mean that living things have changed over time, but that the Darwinian mechanism of random errors (of any kind imagined or unimagined) filtered by natural selection can explain everything in the history of life, including the most sophisticated computer program ever devised, which is engendered in every cell of every living creature.

I am one of those rare people who has actually read the attempts of Darwinists to refute Behe’s irreducible-complexity argument, and the so-called refutations are always the same: thoroughly speculative fantasies about “co-option” that don’t withstand even the most trivial analytical scrutiny, and protein-sequence similarities that are perfectly irrelevant to the question at hand.

Yet, we are told that these completely unsupported speculations have closed the case, even though they are obviously incredible on any grounds of rationality or evidence. Furthermore, we are told that anyone who challenges these speculations is “an enemy of science.”

Darwinism is a bizarre Alice-in-Wonderland fantasy, completely dislocated from modern scientific and empirical reality, down a rabbit hole where as many as six impossible things are believed before breakfast — and sold as scientific fact.

Comments
"I can provide links if you are interested in exploring this link between delusion and violence further." That is a comfort.mggarrison
April 15, 2011
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OT: Here are 50+ gems to drive Darwinists nuts with (or nuttier with :) ) My Top 50 Problems with Evolution http://creationbydesign.wordpress.com/2009/08/16/my-top-50-problems-with-evolution/bornagain77
March 28, 2011
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I've apparently done it again. I seem to have a propensity for inducing the following phenomenon: I state the obvious that should be apparent to anyone familiar with contemporary biological science, basic mathematics, and rational thinking about origins. Darwinists inevitably completely lose their minds and go into a state of hysterical apoplexy. One must ask himself the following question, Why the hysterical reaction to such obvious truth? I can answer that question: Their entire worldview is based upon a nihilistic, materialistic lie that is in a state of complete scientific collapse. Accepting the fact that they have been wrong about everything that ultimately matters would mean that, upon their deathbeds, they would have to admit that their lives have been ultimately pointless, meaningless, and wasted. Thus, they feel required to drag down others into the depths of their materialistic, nihilistic worldview. Never mind evidence or logic. Misery loves company.GilDodgen
March 27, 2011
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JR: That would be variation within a “kind” only, right? Is there any evidence for any other kind of variation?Joseph
March 27, 2011
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Environments change and we have to be able to change to. So we need to “evolve”. JR
Really? You are starting to sound just like a Darwinist.
So you admit that you are ignorant- baraminology allows for change. JR:
So, if we need to “evolve” where does ID come into it?
Origins and according to Richar Dawkins that means we are looking at a totaly different type of biology. JR:
Forget about that did ya?
I guess you still have that reading problem...Joseph
March 27, 2011
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Joe,
And yes we need variation- variation good, putting all eggs in one basket bad.
That would be variation within a "kind" only, right?JemimaRacktouey
March 27, 2011
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Joseph
Environments change and we have to be able to change to. So we need to “evolve”.
Really? You are starting to sound just like a Darwinist. So, if we need to "evolve" where does ID come into it? Forget about that did ya?JemimaRacktouey
March 27, 2011
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JR:
If humans were designed would it not have been better to leave out that part – after all, we don’t really need to evolve any more do we?
We need to learn from our mistakes. We also need to take responsibility for our mistakes. Environments change and we have to be able to change to. So we need to "evolve".Joseph
March 27, 2011
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JR:
If we’re the “target” on this privileged planet then what’s with the 1 in 3 cancer rate designer guy?
It is due to us- most of it anyway. Now it is up to us to fix it. Simple a that. And yes we need variation- variation good, putting all eggs in one basket bad. So here we have a sock puppet coming in here playing the cancer card when in fact most cancers are due to our own bad behaviors coming back to bite us. And that, according to said sock puppet, is the designer's fault.Joseph
March 27, 2011
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Jemima Racktouey You vilify the designs of God and in the same time you glorify the designs of humans. It is a logically contradictory position. In fact in a causal hierarchy where A designs B and B designs C necessarily A is higher than B and B is higher than C. You cannot vilify the higher and glorify the lower.niwrad
March 27, 2011
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vjtorley
If the error correction mechanisms were perfect then even microevolution would be impossible, let alone macroevolution. Living things need to adapt to a changing environment. Some toleration of “error” is therefore essential.,
I'm not convinced by this argument. It's perfectly possible to have adaptation without runaway uncontrolled growth. It's perfectly possible to have better better error correction (1 in 3!) and still allow sufficient "error" for adaptation. If the cell "is a computer" and "runs programs" then these are just relatively minor adaptations to existing code. Minor compared to what already exists that is. So I'm to believe that the current error correction mechanisms were designed specifically to strike a balance between cancer (1 in 3!) in humans (the designers target species according to some) and the ability to adapt to changing environments? If humans were designed would it not have been better to leave out that part - after all, we don't really need to evolve any more do we? If we're the "target" on this privileged planet then what's with the 1 in 3 cancer rate designer guy? We don't need it no more! We're here!JemimaRacktouey
March 27, 2011
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Thanks bevets- I just used that for a blog about revealing evo methodology... :cool:Joseph
March 27, 2011
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I am one of those rare people who has actually read the attempts of Darwinists to refute Behe’s irreducible-complexity argument, and the so-called refutations are always the same: thoroughly speculative fantasies about “co-option” that don’t withstand even the most trivial analytical scrutiny, and protein-sequence similarities that are perfectly irrelevant to the question at hand. How to do itbevets
March 27, 2011
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JR:
Inference from best explanation.
That means you just made it up. Why 6000 years? JR:
I’ve read your blog.
Then you have mental issues because I have flat out stated there isn't any evidence fora 6,000 year old earth and I do not accept the Bible as anything other than a collection of books. JR:
In it you make many claims about how the dating of the earth is unreliable and not to be trusted.
Supported those claims too. JR:
And you also talk about baraminology and as that is a creationist taxonomic system inference to best explanation...
I just point out that is what all the data supports. Don't shoot the messenger. JR:
leads me to believe that the number 6000 is of particular significance to you.
Judging from your posts here tht wuld be due to the fact you have a one-track and very narrow mind. And you obviously have reding issus.Joseph
March 27, 2011
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Jemima Racktouey (#48) Thank you for your post. You wrote:
But now I'm confused. If finding a watch on the grass and assuming design is a useful analogy then you've just invalidated it with that comment. To make the watchmaker analogy appropriate watches need to reproduce. Yet the don't and I've seen that analogy used over and over here.
This criticism perpetuates a myth. William Paley himself anticipated the objection that living things can reproduce but watches can't. Suppose, said he, that we found a watch that could reproduce. That would only serve to increase our admiration for the watchmaker. Nor would it be a good answer to say that the series of watches went back forever in time, with no beginning. (At the time when Paley wrote his Natural Theology, it had not been scientifically demonstrated that the earth had a beginning, let alone the cosmos.) Paley's contention was that the fact that the parts of the watch were all well-contrived still requires explanation, and an infinite series of watches no more explains this fact than a finite one. You can read Paley's Natural Theology online at http://darwin-online.org.uk/content/frameset?itemID=A142&viewtype=text&pageseq=1 . For his argument relating to watches that can reproduce, see pages 8 to 17. For Paley, living things aren't just like designed objects; they are designed objects:
The generation of the animal no more accounts for the contrivance of the eye or ear, than, upon the supposition stated in a preceding chapter, the production of a watch by the motion and mechanism of a former watch, would account for the skill and intention evidenced in the watch, so produced; than it would account for the disposition of the wheels, the catching of their teeth, the relation of the several parts of the works to one another, and to their common end, for the suitableness of their forms and places to their offices, for their connexion, their operation, and the useful result of that operation. I do insist most strenuously upon the correctness of this comparison; that it holds as to every mode of specific propagation; and that whatever was true of the watch, under the hypothesis above-mentioned, is true of plants and animals. (Chapter IV, pages 49-50.)
Paley also anticipated the objection that given enough time, non-viable designs would have been naturally eliminated, leaving only ones which worked. His response (on pages 63 to 66) was that if anyone tried to account for the origin of watches in this fashion, the supposition would be derided as fantastic and wildly improbable; and for living things, the supposition was no less improbable. Paley was writing 50 years before Darwin's Origin of Species was published, so his argument may strike us as rather sketchy and in need of further elaboration, in order to refute the notion that natural selection can account for the complexity we find in living things. The work of ID proponents such as Dembski, Behe and Meyer does just that. ID critics have yet to properly digest their arguments. You mentioned cancer as an argument against the existence of an Intelligent Designer. Paley anticipated this line of criticism too:
It is not necessary that a machine be perfect, in order to show with what design it was made: still less necessary, where the only question is, whether it were made with any design at all. (Chapter I, p. 5.)
and again:
When we are inquiring simply after the existence of an intelligent Creator, imperfection, inaccuracy, liability to disorder, occasional irregularities, may subsist in a considerable degree, without inducing any doubt into the question: just as a watch may frequently go wrong, seldom perhaps exactly right, may be faulty in some parts, defective in some, without the smallest ground of suspicion from thence arising that it was not a watch; not made; or not made for the purpose ascribed to it. When faults are pointed out, and when a question is started concerning the skill of the artist, or dexterity with which the work is executed, then indeed, in order to defend these qualities from accusation, we must be able, either to expose some intractableness and imperfection in the materials, or point out some invincible difficulty in the execution, into which imperfection and difficulty the matter of complaint may be resolved; or if we cannot do this, we must adduce such specimens of consummate art and contrivance, proceeding from the same hand, as may convince the inquirer, of the existence, in the case before him, of impediments like those which we have mentioned, although, what from the nature of the case is very likely to happen, they be unknown and unperceived by him. This we must do in order to vindicate the artist's skill, or, at least, the perfection of it; as we must also judge of his intention, and of the provisions employed in fulfilling that intention, not from an instance in which they fail, but from the great plurality of instances in which they succeed. But, after all, these are different questions from the question of the artist's existence: or, which is the same, whether the thing before us be a work of art or not: and the questions ought always to be kept separate in the mind. So likewise it is in the works of nature. Irregularities and imperfections are of little or no weight in the consideration, when that consideration relates simply to the existence of a Creator. When the argument respects his attributes, they are of weight; but are then to be taken in conjunction (the attention is not to rest upon them, but they are to be taken in conjunction) with the unexceptionable evidences which we possess, of skill, power, and benevolence, displayed in other instances; which evidences may, in strength; number, and variety, be such, and may so overpower apparent blemishes, as to induce us, upon the most reasonable ground, to believe, that these last ought to be referred to some cause, though we be ignorant of it, other than defect of knowledge or of benevolence in the author. (Chapter V, pages 56-58.)
Concerning cancer, you wrote:
Yet those error correction mechanisms could have been tweaked just a little to add parity data (it’s a computer remember and computers can run programs so this is an adjustment to the programming not the infrastructure and as such would be relatively trivial) which would increase the fidelity of data transfer a hundredfold.
I'm sorry, but this is a poor argument. If the error correction mechanisms were perfect then even microevolution would be impossible, let alone macroevolution. Living things need to adapt to a changing environment. Some toleration of "error" is therefore essential. I might add that living things were not designed to last forever.vjtorley
March 27, 2011
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Muraasa:
It sounds like you are stating that the designer set things up and then decided to walk away.
That is in "No Free Lunch" also- no meddling/ intervention required.
Seems odd to spend all that time and energy designing life and then just allow it to spiral into decay.
That seems like a stupid "argument" to me.
Joseph
March 27, 2011
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I was just responding to your bit of pap questioning the fact that the living organisms we now observe are not the living organisms that were originally designed. JR:
You say “the fact” like it was established as an actual known fact, rather then it being precisely what ID is attempting to establish.
It is established as an actual known fact. Read a biology textbook. JR: So you claim that once an organism existed that was designed and not “corrupted” by any evolution, I.E Generation 1. The created “generation”. I claimed that is a possibility.
And as proof for that claim you use the “fact” that “the organisms we now observe are not the living organisms that were originally designed”.
Nope, not even close.Joseph
March 27, 2011
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Joseph, It sounds like you are stating that the designer set things up and then decided to walk away. Seems odd to spend all that time and energy designing life and then just allow it to spiral into decay. Maybe we should have asked for the extended maintenance plan.Muramasa
March 27, 2011
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Joseph
How do you know that?
Inference from best explanation.
Why 6000 years?
I've read your blog. In it you make many claims about how the dating of the earth is unreliable and not to be trusted. And you also talk about baraminology and as that is a creationist taxonomic system inference to best explanation leads me to believe that the number 6000 is of particular significance to you.JemimaRacktouey
March 27, 2011
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Joseph
I was just responding to your bit of pap questioning the fact that the living organisms we now observe are not the living organisms that were originally designed.
You say "the fact" like it was established as an actual known fact, rather then it being precisely what ID is attempting to establish. So you claim that once an organism existed that was designed and not "corrupted" by any evolution, I.E Generation 1. The created "generation". And as proof for that claim you use the "fact" that "the organisms we now observe are not the living organisms that were originally designed". As somebody else once said, that's not even wrong. Presumably you can tell me what the originally created kinds were then? And also tell me how you know that?JemimaRacktouey
March 27, 2011
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sockpuppet:
Error correcting mechanisms exist, that’s claimed on a daily basis here.
It is claimed by biologists.
Yet those error correction mechanisms could have been tweaked just a little to add parity data (it’s a computer remember and computers can run programs so this is an adjustment to the programming not the infrastructure and as such would be relatively trivial) which would increase the fidelity of data transfer a hundredfold.
How do you know that? And why do you have to blame the designer(s) for something humans caused? Why can't humans just step up and take responsibility for their messed up actions?Joseph
March 27, 2011
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sockpuppet:
Then how many generations have passed since the “original design” was implemented?
I don't know. But perhaps science can help out with that.
Let me guess, would it be the same number of generations as would fit into 6000 years?
Why 6000 years? Let me guess you are a drooling troll who cannot think for yourself and have to erect strawman after strawman because it makes you feel good.Joseph
March 27, 2011
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Cancer- what % of cancers are caused by environmental factors? Basically meaning what we humans have done to the environment tat has come back to bite us. Ummm we observe living organisms give birth to other living organisms on a daily basis. Duh. JR:
And from that fact you’ve worked out that if you follow up the chain you’ll find the original design?
Did I? I was just responding to your bit of pap questioning the fact that the living organisms we now observe are not the living organisms that were originally designed.
The previous poster on this thread (Joseph) has threatened myself and others with violence after his delusions have been pointed out to him.
I doubt it. I doubt that you have pointed out any delusions and I bet your perceived threats are nothing more than me, calling out cowards like you.Joseph
March 27, 2011
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Seeing as this is a 'Alice In Wonderland' thread, from the surreal file we find; World's First Synthetic Microbe Accused of Copyright Infringement by James Joyce's Estate Excerpt: When Craig Venter created a synthetic microbe, he inserted a passage from James Joyce. Guess who’s upset? Joyce’s estate, claiming copyright infringement: In order to distinguish their synthetic DNA from that naturally present in the bacterium, Venter’s team coded several famous quotes into their DNA, including one from James Joyce’s A Portrait of the Artist of a Young Man: “To live, to err, to fall, to triumph, to recreate life out of life.” After announcing their work, Venter explained, his team received a cease and desist letter from Joyce’s estate, saying that he’d used the Irish writer’s work without permission. ”We thought it fell under fair use,” said Venter. http://www.neatorama.com/2011/03/19/worlds-first-synthetic-microbe-accused-of-copyright-infringement-by-james-joyces-estate/ I wonder, since Venter's team did not actually create any new proteins or genes but just copied what was already there, if God is also going to file for copyright infringement?bornagain77
March 27, 2011
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So JemimaRacktouey, do you still say that the miracle of eyesight is really no miracle at all since you could design an eye better? the inverted retina, which evolutionists insist is "bad design", is now found to be a 'optimal design: Retinal Glial Cells Enhance Human Vision Acuity A. M. Labin and E. N. Ribak Physical Review Letters, 104, 158102 (April 2010) Excerpt: The retina is revealed as an optimal structure designed for improving the sharpness of images. https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/why-ken-miller-is-right-about-our-backward-retina/#comment-354274 Evolution Vs. The Miracle Of The Eye - Molecular Animation http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4189562/ Optimized hardware compression, The eyes have it. - February 2011 Excerpt: the human visual processing system is “the best compression algorithm around”. https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/optimised-hardware-compression-the-eyes-have-it/ further note: https://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AYmaSrBPNEmGZGM4ejY3d3pfMThmd25mdjRocQ "How came the Bodies of Animals to be contrived with so much Art…. Was the Eye contrived without skill in Opticks, and the Ear without Knowledge of Sounds?" - Isaac Newtonbornagain77
March 27, 2011
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Gil
No human intervention is ever required to keep the Internet functioning? That’s news to me.
Hey, if ID is allowed to stretch analogies to breaking point then so am I! :) And in any case, it's true to say that the Internet if left unmaintained would collapse but not all at once and some components would keep going for a very long time. It was designed to survive a nuclear war after all!JemimaRacktouey
March 27, 2011
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Hmm, sounds like the internet to me. No human intervention is ever required to keep the Internet functioning? That's news to me.GilDodgen
March 27, 2011
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Gil
Sending serial data across a computer network with CRC error detection is in a completely different category from what the cell must deal with.
Is it? Then I guess all the "the cell is really a computer" analogies that are favorites in the ID camp must all be invalid. And why is it so different? Error correcting mechanisms exist, that's claimed on a daily basis here. Yet those error correction mechanisms could have been tweaked just a little to add parity data (it's a computer remember and computers can run programs so this is an adjustment to the programming not the infrastructure and as such would be relatively trivial) which would increase the fidelity of data transfer a hundredfold.
to make the analogy appropriate, the network would have to replicate itself in an often hostile environment and be left on its own indefinitely
Hmm, sounds like the internet to me. But now I'm confused. If finding a watch on the grass and assuming design is a useful analogy then you've just invalidated it with that comment. To make the watchmaker analogy appropriate watches need to reproduce. Yet the don't and I've seen that analogy used over and over here. So which is it?JemimaRacktouey
March 27, 2011
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Sending serial data across a computer network with CRC error detection is in a completely different category from what the cell must deal with. To make the analogy appropriate, the network would have to replicate itself in an often hostile environment and be left on its own indefinitely, with no human intervention to fix the hardware when it wore out or otherwise failed.GilDodgen
March 27, 2011
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Joe,
Ummm we observe living organisms give birth to other living organisms on a daily basis. Duh.
And from that fact you've worked out that if you follow up the chain you'll find the original design? How is that logical on any level? allanius,
This fantasy is now running up against the rock-hard reality of molecular biology.
This is interesting. Could you provide a citation to such a paper on molecular biology that supports your argument?
but the delusional, when confronted with their delusions, tend to become violent.
This is also interesting. The previous poster on this thread (Joseph) has threatened myself and others with violence after his delusions have been pointed out to him. I can provide links if you are interested in exploring this link between delusion and violence further.JemimaRacktouey
March 27, 2011
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