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An encounter with a critic of biological semiosis

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RoyalSociety3

For those who are unfamiliar with The Royal Society, it’s an academic organization whose membership includes many of the world’s most eminent scientists, and is “the oldest scientific academy in continuous existence”. In loose terms, they are a British forbearer to many of the various Academies of Science sprinkled throughout the nations of the world. From their mission statement:

The Society’s fundamental purpose, reflected in its founding Charters of the 1660s, is to recognize, promote, and support excellence in science and to encourage the development and use of science for the benefit of humanity.

This article isn’t necessarily about the Royal Society, except for the fact that it serves as the genesis of the story, and also a proper backdrop to frame the issues at hand.

What is at issue is the void that seems to exist between the average working biologist and the fundamental reality that DNA (the genome) is a genuine representational medium. It operates in a system that translates the representations it uses to encode biological information into long-term memory. It is not sort-of-like information; it is not kind-of-like information. From a physics perspective, it functions exactly like the words you are reading right now. In fact — again from a physical systems perspective — only genetic encoding can match the variety and open-ended content of the words on this page. The genetic code and recorded language are the only two physical systems like this in the entire cosmos. They use spatially-oriented representations and a reading-frame code. It is the organization of arbitrary constraints that enables the combinatorial encoding of effects. In the total sum of human knowledge, they are a set of two    – with no others.

Royal-Society-March-2016

In their March 2016 volume, the Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society published a special collection of papers under the no-nonsense heading “DNA as Information”. The content of those papers reflect the fact that the study of information remains a huge subject in the sciences, with an array of research opportunities in every direction. Contributions among the twenty-odd papers in the collection include such topics as semantics, mathematics, physics, encoding, measurement, complexity, and the role of meaning in biology.

This issue of Philosophical Transactions is where this story begins. More specifically, it begins with a particular paper (presented in that collection) by a well-respected Italian professor and researcher, Marcello Barbieri, who has for many years promoted a paradigm shift to biological semiosis (biosemiosis) and who is currently advancing this effort under the moniker “Code Biology”.

In opening his paper, Dr Barbieri addresses the central issue of this article:

Molecular biology is based on two great discoveries: the first is that genes carry hereditary information in the form of linear sequences of nucleotides; the second is that in protein synthesis a sequence of nucleotides is translated into a sequence of amino acids, a process that amounts to a transfer of information from genes to proteins. These discoveries have shown that the information of genes and proteins is the specific linear order of their sequences. This is a clear definition of information and there is no doubt that it reflects an experimental reality. What is not clear, however, is the ontological status of information, and the result is that today we have two conflicting paradigms in biology. One is the ‘chemical paradigm’, the idea that ‘life is chemistry’, or, more precisely, that ‘life is an extremely complex form of chemistry’. The other is the ‘information paradigm’, the view that chemistry is not enough, that ‘life is chemistry plus information’.

A link to Marcello Barbieri’s abstract is available on the Royal Society website here.

We pick up the story on the reaction side of its publication; the reaction to these observations by an average American scientist — a published biologist — who voices his point of view on the World Wide Web.

In this article it will not be necessary to perform any critical review of the biologist’s comments; one can tell within just a few words the gist of his position. He clearly has no questions about the “life is chemistry” paradigm he was taught at his university, and he clearly finds any other suggestion to be simply absurd. In his critique of Barbieri’s paper, he begins on his left foot:

Critic: “The first thing that I need to point out is that the author is not a biologist. He is a semiotician (someone who studies symbols and meanings). This will readily explain some of his more idiotic claims …”

I entered the conversation to say that he was tremendously misinformed about Marcello Barbieri’s qualifications, and I posted a short passage of text copied from Barbieri’s webpage about his background. I was also little surprised by the complete disregard for the source of the publication itself – the world’s “oldest scientific academy in continuous existence”. Not only can Barbieri be ignored, but the Royal Society is publishing “idiotic claims” about biology – or so it seems.

code-biology-conf

But there is certainly more to this. I believe there are possibly three things at work in the reaction presented above. First and foremost are the material facts themselves; i.e. the observation of genuine representations and arbitrary constraints (formalized in memory) inside the cell are difficult things to explain by the physical properties of matter. After all, the very essence of genetic translation is that it systematically decouples the production of effects from sheer determinism (physicalism), making possible the full range effects necessary for biology to exist. In other words, a system that functions only by locally eliminating your favorite explanation is a difficult nut to crack.

Secondly, Barbieri’s paper was presented (in this particular instance) under the rubric of philosophy, which (as a general rule) is often looked down upon by certain classes of scientists. Not surprisingly, these often include those sciences (like evolutionary biology and theoretical physics) that promote the notion that they are answering mankind’s biggest questions. As I wrote on Biosemiosis.org, this is cavalier conduct in light of the actual evidence. In any case, for many people, the idea of systematic learning without philosophical grounding is a cart without a horse. The practice of systematic learning is itself a philosophy.

But thirdly, there is something even more central to this critic’s comments; he isolates the lowly “creationist” as the key figure in his response. They are, as it turns out, the real impetus for his comments. He begins “So, it seems that creationists have been spamming this article so I’ll analyze it”. By using the word creationists here, some might suggest the critic intends to attack only those who believe such things as the earth being six thousand years old, for instance. But I think we can fairly assume he intends to attack anyone who believes that life on earth is the product of a creation, and of course, anyone who could believe such a thing obviously deserves to be attacked. The mere appearance of the word provides sufficient license to trivialize both the observations being made, as well as any outfit that publishes them.

Now, I have no evidence one way or another that anyone or any group has piled on to Barbieri’s paper – and it makes not one ounce of difference either way. The real issue here is that verifiable physical evidence is being routinely belittled and ignored simply because it doesn’t conform to the personal metaphysics of proper-thinking biologists — and clearly this is about metaphysics. It’s about the treatment and teaching of metaphysics in science. While the self-appointed defenders of science posture about the provisional nature of science, make no mistake; no physical evidence is allowed to take root if it leads to the unimaginable proposition that today’s biologists could be wrong in their personal beliefs about ultimate reality.

And this view doesn’t merely exist among anonymous biologists posting on the web; it is the dominant view found throughout biology at all levels. For instance, Larry Moran is a respected Professor of Biochemistry at the University of Toronto, and has written multiple textbooks on the subject. But four and a half years ago, I asked him for a clear statement as to whether or not the genome (DNA) actually contained information. He replied:

In common parlance we refer to these sites as containing “information” in the form of specific nucleotide sequence. It’s a very useful analogy and I think everyone knows what we mean when we use it. Nobody expects it to conform to the meanings of “information” in other disciplines. Nobody, that is, except some IDiots who like to play semantic word games instead of addressing real science. I hope you’re not one of those people.

The problem with this, of course, is that investigator expectations are a secondary concern; the genome functions exactly like language, and vice versa.

In any case, the war on outcast metaphysics is made evident again and again. It’s a socio-political enterprise, and when it rises to the level of ignoring valid evidence, it becomes an enterprise aligned against reason itself. This critic of semiosis had no idea that semiosis was physically identifiable, and he doesn’t want to know.

–Upright BiPed

 


 

The remainder of my exchange with the critic follows below. What it lacks in debate it thankfully makes up for in brevity. The critic clearly threw in the towel, rather than show any interest in the science.

UB:  (posted Barbieri’s extensive background…)

– – – – – – – – – – – –

Critic:  Thank you for the correction. From the references that immediately jumped, he seemed to study biosemiotics. That’s very disappointing that he actually has conducted research because he is so wrong-headed in his article.

With regards to my name, I’m a published biologist. I’m a scientist and my name is Sam.

– – – – – – – – – – – –

UB:  Hi Sam. Good to know. Take care.

By the way, he is entirely correct in his paper, you are just unaware of the issues. It happens.

– – – – – – – – – – – –

Critic: No he isn’t. I gave very good reasons. This is far closer to my area of research than his.

– – – – – – – – – – – –

UB: Barbieri states that the code is not reducible to physics. He is correct. Like all code systems ever known to exist, the genetic translation system contains a natural (and necessary) discontinuity between the arrangement of the medium and the determination of its effect within the system. This local discontinuity is what makes it possible for a spatial arrangement of bases in a codon to specify a particular amino acid during synthesis. It is what establishes combinatorial permutations and enables open-ended heredity. I can appreciate the fact that this all sounds foreign to you, but that is only because you are unaware of the data – which has been documented in physics literature starting about half a century ago by physicists such as Howard Pattee and others.

– – – – – – – – – – – –

Critic: “Like all code systems ever known to exist, the genetic translation system contains a natural (and necessary) discontinuity between the arrangement of the medium and the determination of its effect within the system.”

There is no discontinuity. You must’ve never taken molecular biology.

“This local discontinuity is what makes it possible for a spatial arrangement of bases in a codon to specify a particular amino acid during synthesis.”

How so? This is just a bald assertion.

“It is what establishes  combinatorial permutations and enables open-ended heredity.”

Again, bald assertion.

“I can appreciate the fact that this all sounds foreign to you, but that is only because you are unaware of the data – which has been documented in physics literature starting about half a century ago by physicists such as Howard Pattee and others.”

How about you stop condescending to someone who wrote his Master’s thesis on the dynamics of the genetic code? Please make an argument rather than bald assertions you supercilious imbecile.

– – – – – – – – – – – –

UB: “There is no discontinuity.”

Like I said, the local discontinuity is an organizational necessity. The arrangement of bases in a codon does not determine which amino acid is presented for binding. I would think this should be obvious to someone of your training.

– – – – – – – – – – – –

Critic: “The arrangement of bases in a codon does not determine which amino acid is presented for binding.”

Strictly speaking, that is true, but there are a lot of contingencies built into the structure of the code. For example, we have the third base wobble. We also have the fact that more similar amino acids correspond to more similar codons. Thus, there seem to be contingencies built into the code. But, even if I grant you this, where does it get you in an argument?

– – – – – – – – – – – –

UB:  “where does it get you in an argument?”

This is one of the empirical markers a physicist would use to identify the organization of a semiotic code, i.e. the preservation of the discontinuity between the arrangement of the medium and the determination of its effect. The cell accomplishes this by isolating the establishment of the code from the reading of the codons, i.e. the amino acid-to-anticodon association is temporally and spatially isolated from the codon-to-anticodon association. This discontinuity is a physical necessity for translation to occur, and is evident in all instances of semiotic translation.

But that is just the first marker that a physicist would look for. There are others. For instance, genetic translation employs a reading frame code using combinatorial permutations. This requires the arrangement of the bases in each codon to be independent of the minimum total potential energy state of the medium. In other words, a pheromone (for instance) is an informational medium that is recognized in its system by its three-dimensional structure, and that structure is determined by its minimum total potential energy. But in order to enable combinatorial permutations, the arrangement of the medium must be independent of minimum total potential energy – which both DNA and RNA are. This is what physically enables the system to have the informational capacity it requires to describe itself into memory (i.e. to begin the cell cycle, and heredity). It is also what enables the efficient transcription of that high-content information from one medium to another.

These are the types of empirical observations that a physicist (like Pattee and others) would be acquainted with, as well as someone like Barbieri. Or John von Neuman. Or Francis Crick.

You are not acquainted with them, and it’s a sure bet they didn’t appear in your masters thesis on the dynamics of translation. No sweat. I am sure your thesis described other areas of interest in a competent manner. But when you step out and rant on areas of empirical findings that you are uninformed about, you make a mistake. In order to organize the heterogeneous cell, you must first be able to specify a thing and place it under temporal control. This is what protein synthesis does, and the translation of an informational medium is the means to accomplish that effect. But the translation of an informational medium requires one arrangement of matter to serve as a representational medium (codons), and another arrangement of matter to establish what is being represented (aaRS). After all, no object in the material universe inherent specifies any other object in the material universe. Nucleobases do not represent or specify amino acids. They have to be organized in a discontinuous translation system (i.e. semiosis) in order to do so. And that is exactly what is found inside the cell. The material observations that identify the system aren’t even controversial.

– – – – – – – – – – – –

Critic: Thanks for the tripe.

“This discontinuity is a physical necessity for translation to occur, and is evident in all instances of semiotic translation.”

The discontinuity isn’t a physical necessity. You could easily imagine a scenario where amino acids were necessarily assigned to anticodons by chemical properties of tRNAs. I’m sorry but if you can’t get that right, you’re pretty hopeless, idiotically pedantic, and a navel gazer. Goodbye.

– – – – – – – – – – – –

UB: In logic, that’s called “special pleading”. Your imagination, frankly, doesn’t mean diddly. It doesn’t provide you with any exemptions.

The minimum requirement for the origin of the system is established by what is physically necessary to record and translate the amount of information that the system needs to successfully describe itself into memory. On this front, there is very little room. A cell that cannot provide a record of itself cannot begin the cell cycle. A cell that cannot translate a record of itself also cannot begin the cell cycle.

To accomplish what must be accomplished, several of these individual associations (generous estimates typically run between 12 to 15) will need to occur at the same time and place, while the details of their construction are simultaneously encoded in the very information that they make possible.

Odd, isn’t it. Nature passed up on the fully determined (comparatively easy) associations lurking in your imagination, and instead (already faced with an almost vertical face to climb) picked an unnecessary system that preserves the discontinuity between the arrangements and their effects. And even odder still, every system of translation that has ever been examined has followed that same pattern.

Special pleading indeed.  Goodbye.

This article was posted from ComplexityCafe.com

Comments
KF @ 58
MT, so do you mean to suggest proteins in humans should not use essential AAs that can be obtained by simply eating? KF
No, I am saying the the codons which encode for that essential protein evolved after we started ingesting the essential protein because DNA would not have coded for something which is not in the body! For example how would the DNA when it evolved know that the organism will start ingesting Isoleucine in future and have code ATT/ ATC/ ATA for Isoleucine?Me_Think
March 15, 2016
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MT, so do you mean to suggest proteins in humans should not use essential AAs that can be obtained by simply eating? KFkairosfocus
March 15, 2016
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gpuccio @47
The tRNA and its anticodon are coupled to the corresponding aminoacid in the symbolic code only because 20 complex proteins exist, each of them able to recognize separately the correct tRNA and the corresponding aminoacid, and to bind them together.
Dionisio
March 15, 2016
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gpuccio: Again with this nonsense of essential aminoacids? What do you mean? The genetic code is obviously older than any such consideration. Exactly. It's just a red herring.Mung
March 15, 2016
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#51 disclaimer Please, note that the text is what I think I heard in the video, hence it may not be as accurate as I wanted. Everybody is welcome to correct any error in the version of the video transcript posted @51. Thank you.Dionisio
March 15, 2016
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Today theoretical biology has genetic, developmental, and evolutionary components, the central connective themes in modern biology, but also includes relevant aspects of computational biology, semiotics, and cognition research, and extends to the naturalistic philosophy of sciences. Series Forward The Vienna Series in Theoretical Biology Sorry Sam.Mung
March 15, 2016
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gpuccio @47
[...] all cases of codes that we know of, and whose origin is independently known with certainty, are generated by conscious activity [...] all cases of functional complexity that we know of, and whose origin is independently known with certainty, are generated by conscious activity [...] is there some reasonably detailed, and credible, theory if how that kind of organization came into existence? And the answer is a very strong: no! The rules for translation in the case of the genetic code are in the whole physical system of translation itself. But, very interestingly, the essential part of the coupling rules is “written” in the 20 Aminoacyl tRNA synthetases. The structure which holds the key to the genetic code is nothing else than a set of 20 proteins, which are obviously synthesized from their genes by the translation system itself, with its code. [...] they are very big and complex proteins, each of them hundreds of AAs long, up to more than one thousand, IOWs, a lot of functional complexity of the best kind.
Dionisio
March 15, 2016
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Glad to see gpuccio is back in town.Dionisio
March 15, 2016
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Posted @27:
“Understanding the protein circuits that perform computations within the cell is a central problem in biology.” Uri Alon Lab – Design Principles in Biology. http://www.weizmann.ac.il/mcb/UriAlon/homepage
Posted @29:
2014 Systems Biology course by Uri Alon Lecture 1: Basic concepts https://www.youtube.com/embed/pyqBvxeVtG4 [Please, note the time marks given here are grossly approximate] @7:30 Goal: Central idea of the class – it gives unity to the discussed topic. Complex biological systems can be understood using design principles which can unify different systems in a mathematical framework. @8:30 it’s up to him to be clear and up to the students to tell him when he’s not. @14:30 Suggested textbook: An introduction to Systems Biology: design principles of biological systems.
Note that this professor does not seem to be an ID-proponent at all. Given his academic tenure, he doesn't seem to be 'sprinkling' Darwinian terms here and there just for the sake of securing funds for research projects, as it might be in other cases. Here's a very interesting part of professor Alon's first lecture in the referenced course: Very early in his first lecture, at the time mark 2:30, he introduces himself to his students. He said he has been a professor at that institute 14 years (the lecture seems to be from 2014). He worked for a PhD in Physics, hence he was used to systems obeying very precise mathematical laws. Then a friend gave him a biology textbook and it was like a shock for him. He said it was like reading a thriller, because he saw this matter that was behaving completely different than what he was used to: [it was] dancing, amazing structures created and then destroyed almost magically, working very precisely under very strong thermodynamic noise and I had to find out how this works. That personal event changed his academic and scientific career radically. Apparently he earned a PhD in biology at Princeton University.Dionisio
March 15, 2016
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Me_Think: Again with this nonsense of essential aminoacids? What do you mean? The genetic code is obviously older than any such consideration. Sometimes you really stick to completely wrong concepts with a loyalty which would be better used for other things.gpuccio
March 15, 2016
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Virgil Cain @ 46
Yes, the entire genetic code is evidence for ID. The codons that represent the essentials are part of the code.
I think you didn't get it - there are codons for essential and non-essential aminoacids. How do you account for the fact that the codon encoding for essential acid existed before we started ingesting essential amino acids?
And what are you, a bag boy and the grocery store?
Unfortunately , No! bag boy at grocery store is a better job than hoodwinking people - which is what marketing is.Me_Think
March 15, 2016
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John S @9
The way of a fool is right in his own eyes, but a wise man listens to advice. and All the ways of a man are pure in his own eyes, but the Lord weighs the spirit.
Good reminder. Maybe that's one important reason to ask simple questions at the beginning of a discussion, in order to let the potential interlocutors reveal their real motives (by the way they react to those questions), thus helping us to determine whether it's advisable to continue the discussion or stop it right there to avoid squandering precious time. The genuine humility (or lack of it) displayed by the potential interlocutors while trying to answer the initial "warm up" icebreaking inquiries may be an important parameter to consider for accurate discernment. Let's always keep in mind that the same rule applies to us too. For example, this morning my mother-in-law said her opinion on certain issue. I asked her why she had such an opinion on that given subject and she just responded that she doesn't know why. No one had asked her that simple question before. But it made her think carefully and realize she had no solid reason to back her position. Most relatives just argue with her to exhaustion, talking past each other indefinitely. :) I think it's important to keep in mind that understanding someone else's point does not mean agreeing with it. But that mutual understanding is necessary for a productive discussion. Also all parties involved in a discussion must be genuinely interested in the truth above anything else. Obviously time should be available for relaxed discussions and the conditions should be conducive to discuss quietly -no background noise, no external interruptions, comfortable sitting, pleasant illumination, etc. Also I think it's important to have a common language and communication protocol, which also includes the adjustment of the discussion speed to the slower participant in the discussion. Very important is the mutual respect.Dionisio
March 15, 2016
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REW at #26: Excuse me if I get late into the discussion: I have just come back and seen this very interesting OP. I think you raise some interesting questions, and I would like to propose some answers.
I think everyone would agree that the genetic code is a physical system. The heart of the debate is whether such codes can only be produced by mind.
Absolutely correct.
My contention is that because codes have certain properties that we appreciate in the abstract, its easy to have a bias that because the abstract only exists in minds, a mind must create a code.
I don't think this is the real argument here. Please, see later.
My definition ( and you can correct me if I’m wrong on any of this) is that a code is the set of rules that relate one set of objects to another set of unrelated objects, and that the rules are arbitrary. So Morse code relates dots and dashes to English letters, and there is nothing ‘R’like about dot-dash-dot, which specifies the letter R.
Absolutely correct.
I think peoples error lies in thinking that because the rules are arbitrary and there is no direct physical necessity between them, then there can be NO link and so the rules must be assigned by a mind. I just dont think that follows ( if i’m correct in my assessment!)
OK, I think that UB will answer this for himself, but I give you my personal idea abut this. The fact that arbitrary codes derive only form conscious activity, for me, is not a logical necessity, as you seem to suggest. In principle, the simple fact that a physical system has the properties of something which is usually generated by a mind is not a logical guarantee that it originates from a mind. I agree with that. But the point is, here we are not making pure logic, or proving a mathematical theorem. What we are doing here is empirical science. So, for me, the point is: all cases of codes that we know of, and whose origin is independently known with certainty, are generated by conscious activity This is an empirical argument, one which is very similar to the argument for design inference from functional complexity (all cases of functional complexity that we know of, and whose origin is independently known with certainty, are generated by conscious activity). Another related point is: if biological codes were truly an exception, is there some reasonably detailed, and credible, theory if how that kind of organization came into existence? And the answer is a very strong: no!
I think it might be useful to talk about codes in detail.
Perfect. Let's do it.
For every code there must be some place that the rules reside. For example the rules for the Morse Code can be listed on a piece of paper or in the mind of the operator. For the german ENIGMA machine the code was contained in the pattern of pins and holes on the rotating drums.
Absolutely correct. That's really the core of the question.
So my question is; where is the genetic code actually contained…where is the physical manifestation? Considering this might illustrate ( or refute ) my point above
Very good question. You can easily find the answer at UB's very good site, but I will try to sum it up for you here. The rules for translation in the case of the genetic code are in the whole physical system of translation itself. But, very interestingly, the essential part of the coupling rules is "written" in the 20 Aminoacyl tRNA synthetases. Here's the Wikipedia page for them: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aminoacyl_tRNA_synthetase And here is, even better, the PDB "Molecule of the Month" page for them: http://pdb101.rcsb.org/motm/16 What are they? They are 20 very biog and complex proteins. Interesting, isn't it? The structure which holds the key to the genetic code is nothing else than a set of 20 proteins, which are obviously synthesized from their genes by the translation system itself, with its code. Moreover, as said, they are very bog and complex proteins, each of them hundreds of AAs long, up to more than one thousand, IOWs, a lot of functional complexity of the best kind. What do these proteins do? It's simple. They recognize, independently, two things: 1) The tRNA, with its anticodon 2) The aminoacid which has to be bound to that tRNA I will quote form the PDB page:
When a ribosome pairs a "CGC" tRNA with "GCG" codon, it expects to find an alanine carried by the tRNA. It has no way of checking; each tRNA is matched with its amino acid long before it reaches the ribosome. The match is made by a collection of remarkable enzymes, the aminoacyl-tRNA synthetases. These enzymes charge each tRNA with the proper amino acid, thus allowing each tRNA to make the proper translation from the genetic code of DNA into the amino acid code of proteins.
Here we have the discontinuity at its best. The tRNA and its anticodon are coupled to the corresponding aminoacid in the symbolic code only because 20 complex proteins exist, each of them able to recognize separately the correct tRNA and the corresponding aminoacid, and to bind them together. IOWs, it's the specific structure of each of the 20 proteins which has the information about which tRNA (and anticodon) is linked to which aminoacid. Each of the 20 proteins has that information for one coupling, in its specific structure of hundreds of aminoacids. Now, for the moment I leave it to you to comment on how the above information relates to your last statement: "Considering this might illustrate ( or refute ) my point above"gpuccio
March 15, 2016
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Me Think:
Intersting.You mean even the codons for the ‘essential amino acids’ (‘Essential aminoacids’ means the body cannot synthesize it and must be obtained from the diet)were there before we started ingesting the essential amino acids?!
Yes, the entire genetic code is evidence for ID. The codons that represent the essentials are part of the code.
Do you really think Perry Marshall has enough brain to understand the reasoning ?
What reasoning? And you have to actually demonstrate that stochastic processes can do it. Imagination gets you nothing.
After all he is essentially a marketing guy! ( despite being an Electrical Engineering)
And what are you, a bag boy and the grocery store?Virgil Cain
March 15, 2016
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Virgil Cain @ 44
The mere fact that codons encode/ represent amino acids is evidence for ID as nature cannot do such a thing. But hey there are millions of dollars for someone who can demonstrate otherwise. So what are you waiting for?
Intersting.You mean even the codons for the 'essential amino acids' (‘Essential aminoacids’ means the body cannot synthesize it and must be obtained from the diet)were there before we started ingesting the essential amino acids?! Do you really think Perry Marshall has enough brain to understand the reasoning ? After all he is essentially a marketing guy! ( despite being an Electrical Engineering)Me_Think
March 15, 2016
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Well Me Think, if you can actually demonstrate such a thing you would win a Nobel Prize plus millions of dollars from Perry Marshall. The mere fact that codons encode/ represent amino acids is evidence for ID as nature cannot do such a thing. But hey there are millions of dollars for someone who can demonstrate otherwise. So what are you waiting for?Virgil Cain
March 15, 2016
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The clear indication that 'code' evolved and was not designed, is the fact that codons encode for 'essential aminoacids' (V-Valine,T-Threonine,I-Isoleucine,M-Methionine,W-Tryptophan etc). 'Essential aminoacids' means the body cannot synthesize it and must be obtained from the diet. Obviously code cannot encode for what the body doesn't make! So the code evolved after the body started ingesting the essential aminoacids in diet.Me_Think
March 15, 2016
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KF @8
[...] it is patent that when we look at the D/RNA system and its associated effectors, we are looking at machine code implemented in a molecular system. Proteins, especially, are assembled in a numerically controlled molecular machine the ribosome, through a string data structure that has in it start, sequence and halt conditions, key elements of an algorithm. Prior to that in key cases the mRNA string is transcribed, may be edited and is arranged to drive that process. There is no mechanically necessary connexion between the codons and the proteins, and the tRNA taxi-position arm components use a standard CCA coupler to hold the AAs. It is loading enzymes that define which tRNA carries what AA and in fact there has been reprogramming of certain codes to carry novel AAs, also. Refusal to face this is not a healthy sign — and it inadvertently testifies as to the strength of the inference to design from such phenomena. KF
Dionisio
March 15, 2016
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PS: Note from NCBI: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK22356/ >>Jeremy M Berg, John L Tymoczko, and Lubert Stryer, Biochemistry. 5th edition, NY: W. H. Freeman and Company, 2002. Section 29.2Aminoacyl-Transfer RNA Synthetases Read the Genetic Code The linkage of an amino acid to a tRNA is crucial for two reasons. First, the attachment of a given amino acid to a particular tRNA establishes the genetic code. When an amino acid has been linked to a tRNA, it will be incorporated into a growing polypeptide chain at a position dictated by the anticodon of the tRNA. Second, the formation of a peptide bond between free amino acids is not thermodynamically favorable. The amino acid must first be activated for protein synthesis to proceed. The activated intermediates in protein synthesis are amino acid esters, in which the carboxyl group of an amino acid is linked to either the 2?- or the 3?-hydroxyl group of the ribose unit at the 3? end of tRNA [--> the CCA tip]. An amino acid ester of tRNA is called an aminoacyl-tRNA or sometimes a charged tRNA (Figure 29.7).>> In short there is all we need here, but the way it is discussed in various sources does not outright acknowledge the key points. Thermodynamic unfavourability suggests that something has to be done to get there, which in this case is also highly specific to the given code linked requisites for protein synthesis. Where the existence of a universal coupler CCA tip is not something that is going to be emphasised -- it will be acknowledged then there will be a predictable passing on without underscoring of significance -- and the words "universal coupler," for sure are going to be very scarce because of direct import. If a Chinese paper that accidentally uses Creator in translation is so sharply challenged, what do we think will happen to something that says too much too explicitly about the CCA coupler? And, the coding is in the loading.kairosfocus
March 15, 2016
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Hello Origenes at #31 ... no doubt, those are some of the key observations. Thank You.Upright BiPed
March 15, 2016
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Hello Anax, Yes, in his writing Barbieri has made it abundantly clear that he follows a fully naturalistic metaphysics. That is fine by me -- I only have a problem with it when he (or anyone else) wants to force that view on the practice of science. For instance, in his "Brief History of Biosemiosis" (I believe was the title) his attempt at putting a natural-only guise on semiosis stuck out like a sore thumb.Upright BiPed
March 15, 2016
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PaV: Wiki on tRNA:
The tRNA structure consists of the following: A 5'-terminal phosphate group. The acceptor stem is a 7- to 9-base pair (bp) stem made by the base pairing of the 5'-terminal nucleotide with the 3'-terminal nucleotide (which contains the CCA 3'-terminal group used to attach the amino acid). The acceptor stem may contain non-Watson-Crick base pairs.[5][7] The CCA tail is a cytosine-cytosine-adenine sequence at the 3' end of the tRNA molecule. The amino acid loaded onto the tRNA by aminoacyl tRNA synthetases, to form aminoacyl-tRNA, is covalently bonded to the 3'-hydroxyl group on the CCA tail.[8] This sequence is important for the recognition of tRNA by enzymes and critical in translation.[9][10] In prokaryotes, the CCA sequence is transcribed in some tRNA sequences. In most prokaryotic tRNAs and eukaryotic tRNAs, the CCA sequence is added during processing and therefore does not appear in the tRNA gene.[11] The D arm is a 4- to 6-bp stem ending in a loop that often contains dihydrouridine.[5] The anticodon arm is a 6-bp stem whose loop contains the anticodon.[5] The tRNA 5'-to-3' primary structure contains the anticodon but in reverse order, since 3'-to-5' directionality is required to read the mRNA from 5'-to-3'. The T arm is a 4- to 5- bp stem containing the sequence T?C where ? is pseudouridine, a modified uridine.[5] Bases that have been modified, especially by methylation (e.g. tRNA (guanine-N7-)-methyltransferase), occur in several positions throughout the tRNA. The first anticodon base, or wobble-position, is sometimes modified to inosine (derived from adenine), pseudouridine or lysidine (derived from cytosine).[12]
On loading enzymes, Wiki remarks:
An aminoacyl tRNA synthetase (aaRS) is an enzyme that attaches the appropriate amino acid onto its tRNA. It does so by catalyzing the esterification of a specific cognate amino acid or its precursor to one of all its compatible cognate tRNAs to form an aminoacyl-tRNA. This is sometimes called "charging" or "loading" the tRNA with the amino acid. Once the tRNA is charged, a ribosome can transfer the amino acid from the tRNA onto a growing peptide, according to the genetic code. Aminoacyl tRNA therefore plays an important role in DNA translation, the expression of genes to create proteins . . . . In some of the aminoacyl tRNA synthetases, the cavity that holds the amino acid can be mutated and modified to carry unnatural amino acids synthesized in the lab, and to attach them to specific tRNAs. This expands the genetic code, beyond the twenty canonical amino acids found in nature, to include an unnatural amino acid as well. The unnatural amino acid is coded by a nonsense (TAG, TGA, TAA), quadruplet, or in some cases a redundant rare codon. The organism that expresses the mutant synthetase can then be genetically programmed to incorporate the unnatural amino acid into any desired position in any protein of interest, allowing biochemists or structural biologists to probe or change the protein's function. For instance, one can start with the gene for a protein that binds a certain sequence of DNA, and, by directing an unnatural amino acid with a reactive side-chain into the binding site, create a new protein that cuts the DNA at the target-sequence, rather than binding it. By mutating aminoacyl tRNA synthetases, chemists have expanded the genetic codes of various organisms to include lab-synthesized amino acids with all kinds of useful properties: photoreactive, metal-chelating, xenon-chelating, crosslinking, spin-resonant, fluorescent, biotinylated, and redox-active amino acids.[5] Another use is introducing amino acids bearing reactive functional groups for chemically modifying the target protein.
A simple animation is here: http://www.phschool.com/science/biology_place/biocoach/translation/addaa.html . . . and it illustrates how it is the general conformation of the tRNA that is used to slot it into a cleft of the loading enzyme (specific aminoacyle tRNA synthetase) and so code it. Where there is also a slot for the particular AA to be loaded, which can then be varied to give a different loading for the tRNA as noted by Wiki. This underscores the highly contingent, informational nature of the system. Another animation with explanation: https://highered.mheducation.com/sites/9834092339/student_view0/chapter15/aminoacyl_trna_synthetase.html So, yes there is a universal CCA tip to which the AA is loaded, and it is a universal coupler, proved by not only the same tip being there for natural loadings, but its utility with lab induced unnatural loadings. In effect the coding is in the loading. (coupled to the anticodon sequence that then matches to the mRNA frame of three letters specifying load the AA x here, next.) Loading can then be varied, it is contingent as is required for information conveyance. KFkairosfocus
March 15, 2016
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PAV,
You wrote: “The cell accomplishes this by isolating the establishment of the code from the reading of the codons, i.e. the amino acid-to-anticodon association is temporally and spatially isolated from the codon-to-anticodon association. This discontinuity is a physical necessity for translation to occur, and is evident in all instances of semiotic translation”. Here’s the distinction I would make: The “amino acid-to-anticodon association is temporally and spatially isolated from the” DNA-to-codon association.
Unfortunately we are talking past each other in a big way. The person I was talking to didn’t believe there was a discontinuity in the operation of the system. I was telling him where he could find it. Changing the spatial arrangement of nucleotides in a codon changes which amino acid will be presented for binding, but the spatial arrangement of nucleotides in a codon does not determine which amino acid will be presented. Nucleobases do not specify amino acids. That utility -- the capacity to specify something in a universe where nothing specifies anything else -- has to be physically realized in the organization of the system. The system only functions if it is organized in a way that establishes the arrangement of the codon as a genuine representation, that is, by preserving the natural discontinuity between the arrangement of the codon and the amino acid it specifies. The cell accomplishes this by isolating the establishment the code from the reading of the codons, i.e. the amino acid-to-anticodon association is temporally and spatially isolated from the codon-to-anticodon association. By being organized this way, the arrangement of nucleobases in a codon can actually represent a particular amino acid in the context of the system – thereby making the organization of the heterogeneous cell possible.Upright BiPed
March 15, 2016
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REW, sorry for the delay…
My contention is that because codes have certain properties that we appreciate in the abstract, its easy to have a bias that because the abstract only exists in minds, a mind must create a code.
I accept that this is your contention. The issue at hand is how the system works. What properties of the code do we “appreciate in the abstract” that are not actually working properties of the system?Upright BiPed
March 15, 2016
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Hi, UB If I´m not mistaken, Barbieri proposes (in his book “The organic Codes” for instance) a fully naturalistic account of biosemiosis. In this sense, he considers that the genetic code is not the product of a mind but just the product of the molecular machines that make the translation in the process of protein synthesis (enzymes and proteins as well). He terms them “code-makers”. I have always found that puzzling. On the one hand because these “code-makers” are themselves the product of translation and therefore the product of the genetic code they are supposed to “create”. On the other hand because I see the whole process as a manifestation of the cell´s teleological agency; in the end it is the cell that governs the action of translating what is needed, when it´s needed.Anaxagoras
March 14, 2016
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KF: I was looking around for something like the "universal coupler" since something like that seemed to be hinted at. However, as I've turned it over in my mind, I find something wrong, or missing, about all of this. That there is a "universal" amino acid receptor site doesn't mean that any-old tRNA molecule can accept any amino acid it chooses. Some specificity must be required. I think the import of this 'universality' is simply that the "language" the cell uses is determined by all the other parts of the tRNA molecule. That is, if you have a particular "anticodon" end, then all the other loops and such are adapted---we may say---to this "anticodon" end. So the tRNA molecule is not 'determined' by the amino acid it links to; rather, the amino acid it links to is 'determined' by the "anticodon" end. Here's the analogy of language: if I write an phrase in English, a Japanese man or woman can translate that into Japanese if they understand English, and a German speaking person who understand English can translate the phrase into German. The Japanese language, nor the German language, does not, in any way, determine what I write in English; rather, the English phrase I write determines what the Japanese or German interpreter will write down in their native language. So, I think the "separability" that I indicated above is, I don't think, affected by this "universality." Some kind of specification must exist ahead of time. And something other than the amino acid is making this specification. IOW, the DNA specifies the codons; and the tRNA specifies the amino acid. This said, let me add the following: There must be some kind of "hand in glove" quantum mechanical action involved here, I suspect, and the only reason for the universality is so that end of the functional tRNA molecule be 'adaptable' to whatever amino acid it's otherwise meant to attach to. IOW, if EACH tRNA molecule had a "specific" end, matching up to whatever amino acid it is intended to link up with, then that linkage has to---biochemically, or quantum mechanically---take priority. Everything else follows from that. However, if some kind of freedom is to be built into the system--and apparently this is what happens---if you wanted the 'same' amino acid linking to 'different' "anticodons" then you would be in the position of one "end" constraining the opposite "end," and, effectively almost having the amino acids determine the code instead of having the code determine the amino acid. It gets a little murky fast, doesn't it?PaV
March 14, 2016
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KF: Thanks for the note. I was looking around for that fact; i.e., that of the "universal coupler." Is this solidly founded?PaV
March 14, 2016
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PaV: I see your clip from Critic:
You could easily imagine a scenario where amino acids were necessarily assigned to anticodons by chemical properties of tRNAs
The CCA tip that couples to AA's in tRNA is a universal coupler. Chemically any AA could be loaded to any tRNA, and this universality has been used to load with novel AAs. Contingency not mechanical necessity, in short. KFkairosfocus
March 14, 2016
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Here follows my summary of Upright Biped's argument. I'm pretty sure that I don't have a full handle on it, so anyone is welcome to point out what is lacking and/or mistaken. 1. The system of protein production in the cell ticks all four physical conditions that are fundamental to translation of information. If it walks like a duck ... therefor information in biology is real. 2. The system is irreducible complex, especially because it (necessarily) consists of two distinct parts — one arrangement of matter evokes an effect within a system, and another arrangement of matter establishes what the effect will be. 3. The system is fundamental to evolution, so it cannot be explained by it.Origenes
March 14, 2016
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UB: I'm doing well. Thanks for asking. Here, I believe, is the source of my confusion (and, perhaps, Sam's). You wrote: The cell accomplishes this by isolating the establishment of the code from the reading of the codons, i.e. the amino acid-to-anticodon association is temporally and spatially isolated from the codon-to-anticodon association. This discontinuity is a physical necessity for translation to occur, and is evident in all instances of semiotic translation. Here's the distinction I would make: The "amino acid-to-anticodon association is temporally and spatially isolated from the" DNA-to-codon association. The divide--the source of 'separability'---is at the point of 'codon'-to-'anticodon' contact; i.e., the 'mechanism' giving rise to the 'codon' is completely separate from the 'mechanism' that gives rise to the 'anti-codon.' Or, 'producing' the message (=nucleotides "coding" for a protein broken down into individual codons at the mRNA/'transcription' level), is not the same as 'reading' the message (=protein constructed from individual codons at the 'ribosomal' level). Looked at this way, the point Sam was trying to make is meaningless; i.e., he was simply describing a different kind of chemistry for the tRNA molecule. This, of course, has no bearing, no effect, on the 'separability' that the genetic code, as a 'language,' requires (That's why Crick predicted tRNAs. He intuitively knew we were dealing with a coding language).
One can say, looking at the papers in this symposium, that the elucidation of the genetic code is indeed a great achievement. It is, in a sense, the key to molecular biology because it shows how the great polymer languages, the nucleic acid language and the protein language, are linked together. — Francis Crick 'The Genetic Code: Yesterday, Today, Tomorrow', Cold Spring Harbour Symposium on Quantitative Biology, 1966, 31, 9. Science quotes on: | DNA (52) | Molecular Biology (19)
REW: If you reduce humans, and all animal life, and life in general, to completely physical forces, then no one, nor no thing, can escape 'chemistry.' However, if there is something called 'spirit,' or 'mind' (nous in Greek), then you can have separability. It is just such separability that can give rise to language, or bird dialects. It's no small wonder, then, the Crick spent the last years of his life probing into the question of consciousness, though remaining an atheist (presumably, to the end.)PaV
March 14, 2016
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