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An encounter with a critic of biological semiosis

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RoyalSociety3

For those who are unfamiliar with The Royal Society, it’s an academic organization whose membership includes many of the world’s most eminent scientists, and is “the oldest scientific academy in continuous existence”. In loose terms, they are a British forbearer to many of the various Academies of Science sprinkled throughout the nations of the world. From their mission statement:

The Society’s fundamental purpose, reflected in its founding Charters of the 1660s, is to recognize, promote, and support excellence in science and to encourage the development and use of science for the benefit of humanity.

This article isn’t necessarily about the Royal Society, except for the fact that it serves as the genesis of the story, and also a proper backdrop to frame the issues at hand.

What is at issue is the void that seems to exist between the average working biologist and the fundamental reality that DNA (the genome) is a genuine representational medium. It operates in a system that translates the representations it uses to encode biological information into long-term memory. It is not sort-of-like information; it is not kind-of-like information. From a physics perspective, it functions exactly like the words you are reading right now. In fact — again from a physical systems perspective — only genetic encoding can match the variety and open-ended content of the words on this page. The genetic code and recorded language are the only two physical systems like this in the entire cosmos. They use spatially-oriented representations and a reading-frame code. It is the organization of arbitrary constraints that enables the combinatorial encoding of effects. In the total sum of human knowledge, they are a set of two    – with no others.

Royal-Society-March-2016

In their March 2016 volume, the Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society published a special collection of papers under the no-nonsense heading “DNA as Information”. The content of those papers reflect the fact that the study of information remains a huge subject in the sciences, with an array of research opportunities in every direction. Contributions among the twenty-odd papers in the collection include such topics as semantics, mathematics, physics, encoding, measurement, complexity, and the role of meaning in biology.

This issue of Philosophical Transactions is where this story begins. More specifically, it begins with a particular paper (presented in that collection) by a well-respected Italian professor and researcher, Marcello Barbieri, who has for many years promoted a paradigm shift to biological semiosis (biosemiosis) and who is currently advancing this effort under the moniker “Code Biology”.

In opening his paper, Dr Barbieri addresses the central issue of this article:

Molecular biology is based on two great discoveries: the first is that genes carry hereditary information in the form of linear sequences of nucleotides; the second is that in protein synthesis a sequence of nucleotides is translated into a sequence of amino acids, a process that amounts to a transfer of information from genes to proteins. These discoveries have shown that the information of genes and proteins is the specific linear order of their sequences. This is a clear definition of information and there is no doubt that it reflects an experimental reality. What is not clear, however, is the ontological status of information, and the result is that today we have two conflicting paradigms in biology. One is the ‘chemical paradigm’, the idea that ‘life is chemistry’, or, more precisely, that ‘life is an extremely complex form of chemistry’. The other is the ‘information paradigm’, the view that chemistry is not enough, that ‘life is chemistry plus information’.

A link to Marcello Barbieri’s abstract is available on the Royal Society website here.

We pick up the story on the reaction side of its publication; the reaction to these observations by an average American scientist — a published biologist — who voices his point of view on the World Wide Web.

In this article it will not be necessary to perform any critical review of the biologist’s comments; one can tell within just a few words the gist of his position. He clearly has no questions about the “life is chemistry” paradigm he was taught at his university, and he clearly finds any other suggestion to be simply absurd. In his critique of Barbieri’s paper, he begins on his left foot:

Critic: “The first thing that I need to point out is that the author is not a biologist. He is a semiotician (someone who studies symbols and meanings). This will readily explain some of his more idiotic claims …”

I entered the conversation to say that he was tremendously misinformed about Marcello Barbieri’s qualifications, and I posted a short passage of text copied from Barbieri’s webpage about his background. I was also little surprised by the complete disregard for the source of the publication itself – the world’s “oldest scientific academy in continuous existence”. Not only can Barbieri be ignored, but the Royal Society is publishing “idiotic claims” about biology – or so it seems.

code-biology-conf

But there is certainly more to this. I believe there are possibly three things at work in the reaction presented above. First and foremost are the material facts themselves; i.e. the observation of genuine representations and arbitrary constraints (formalized in memory) inside the cell are difficult things to explain by the physical properties of matter. After all, the very essence of genetic translation is that it systematically decouples the production of effects from sheer determinism (physicalism), making possible the full range effects necessary for biology to exist. In other words, a system that functions only by locally eliminating your favorite explanation is a difficult nut to crack.

Secondly, Barbieri’s paper was presented (in this particular instance) under the rubric of philosophy, which (as a general rule) is often looked down upon by certain classes of scientists. Not surprisingly, these often include those sciences (like evolutionary biology and theoretical physics) that promote the notion that they are answering mankind’s biggest questions. As I wrote on Biosemiosis.org, this is cavalier conduct in light of the actual evidence. In any case, for many people, the idea of systematic learning without philosophical grounding is a cart without a horse. The practice of systematic learning is itself a philosophy.

But thirdly, there is something even more central to this critic’s comments; he isolates the lowly “creationist” as the key figure in his response. They are, as it turns out, the real impetus for his comments. He begins “So, it seems that creationists have been spamming this article so I’ll analyze it”. By using the word creationists here, some might suggest the critic intends to attack only those who believe such things as the earth being six thousand years old, for instance. But I think we can fairly assume he intends to attack anyone who believes that life on earth is the product of a creation, and of course, anyone who could believe such a thing obviously deserves to be attacked. The mere appearance of the word provides sufficient license to trivialize both the observations being made, as well as any outfit that publishes them.

Now, I have no evidence one way or another that anyone or any group has piled on to Barbieri’s paper – and it makes not one ounce of difference either way. The real issue here is that verifiable physical evidence is being routinely belittled and ignored simply because it doesn’t conform to the personal metaphysics of proper-thinking biologists — and clearly this is about metaphysics. It’s about the treatment and teaching of metaphysics in science. While the self-appointed defenders of science posture about the provisional nature of science, make no mistake; no physical evidence is allowed to take root if it leads to the unimaginable proposition that today’s biologists could be wrong in their personal beliefs about ultimate reality.

And this view doesn’t merely exist among anonymous biologists posting on the web; it is the dominant view found throughout biology at all levels. For instance, Larry Moran is a respected Professor of Biochemistry at the University of Toronto, and has written multiple textbooks on the subject. But four and a half years ago, I asked him for a clear statement as to whether or not the genome (DNA) actually contained information. He replied:

In common parlance we refer to these sites as containing “information” in the form of specific nucleotide sequence. It’s a very useful analogy and I think everyone knows what we mean when we use it. Nobody expects it to conform to the meanings of “information” in other disciplines. Nobody, that is, except some IDiots who like to play semantic word games instead of addressing real science. I hope you’re not one of those people.

The problem with this, of course, is that investigator expectations are a secondary concern; the genome functions exactly like language, and vice versa.

In any case, the war on outcast metaphysics is made evident again and again. It’s a socio-political enterprise, and when it rises to the level of ignoring valid evidence, it becomes an enterprise aligned against reason itself. This critic of semiosis had no idea that semiosis was physically identifiable, and he doesn’t want to know.

–Upright BiPed

 


 

The remainder of my exchange with the critic follows below. What it lacks in debate it thankfully makes up for in brevity. The critic clearly threw in the towel, rather than show any interest in the science.

UB:  (posted Barbieri’s extensive background…)

– – – – – – – – – – – –

Critic:  Thank you for the correction. From the references that immediately jumped, he seemed to study biosemiotics. That’s very disappointing that he actually has conducted research because he is so wrong-headed in his article.

With regards to my name, I’m a published biologist. I’m a scientist and my name is Sam.

– – – – – – – – – – – –

UB:  Hi Sam. Good to know. Take care.

By the way, he is entirely correct in his paper, you are just unaware of the issues. It happens.

– – – – – – – – – – – –

Critic: No he isn’t. I gave very good reasons. This is far closer to my area of research than his.

– – – – – – – – – – – –

UB: Barbieri states that the code is not reducible to physics. He is correct. Like all code systems ever known to exist, the genetic translation system contains a natural (and necessary) discontinuity between the arrangement of the medium and the determination of its effect within the system. This local discontinuity is what makes it possible for a spatial arrangement of bases in a codon to specify a particular amino acid during synthesis. It is what establishes combinatorial permutations and enables open-ended heredity. I can appreciate the fact that this all sounds foreign to you, but that is only because you are unaware of the data – which has been documented in physics literature starting about half a century ago by physicists such as Howard Pattee and others.

– – – – – – – – – – – –

Critic: “Like all code systems ever known to exist, the genetic translation system contains a natural (and necessary) discontinuity between the arrangement of the medium and the determination of its effect within the system.”

There is no discontinuity. You must’ve never taken molecular biology.

“This local discontinuity is what makes it possible for a spatial arrangement of bases in a codon to specify a particular amino acid during synthesis.”

How so? This is just a bald assertion.

“It is what establishes  combinatorial permutations and enables open-ended heredity.”

Again, bald assertion.

“I can appreciate the fact that this all sounds foreign to you, but that is only because you are unaware of the data – which has been documented in physics literature starting about half a century ago by physicists such as Howard Pattee and others.”

How about you stop condescending to someone who wrote his Master’s thesis on the dynamics of the genetic code? Please make an argument rather than bald assertions you supercilious imbecile.

– – – – – – – – – – – –

UB: “There is no discontinuity.”

Like I said, the local discontinuity is an organizational necessity. The arrangement of bases in a codon does not determine which amino acid is presented for binding. I would think this should be obvious to someone of your training.

– – – – – – – – – – – –

Critic: “The arrangement of bases in a codon does not determine which amino acid is presented for binding.”

Strictly speaking, that is true, but there are a lot of contingencies built into the structure of the code. For example, we have the third base wobble. We also have the fact that more similar amino acids correspond to more similar codons. Thus, there seem to be contingencies built into the code. But, even if I grant you this, where does it get you in an argument?

– – – – – – – – – – – –

UB:  “where does it get you in an argument?”

This is one of the empirical markers a physicist would use to identify the organization of a semiotic code, i.e. the preservation of the discontinuity between the arrangement of the medium and the determination of its effect. The cell accomplishes this by isolating the establishment of the code from the reading of the codons, i.e. the amino acid-to-anticodon association is temporally and spatially isolated from the codon-to-anticodon association. This discontinuity is a physical necessity for translation to occur, and is evident in all instances of semiotic translation.

But that is just the first marker that a physicist would look for. There are others. For instance, genetic translation employs a reading frame code using combinatorial permutations. This requires the arrangement of the bases in each codon to be independent of the minimum total potential energy state of the medium. In other words, a pheromone (for instance) is an informational medium that is recognized in its system by its three-dimensional structure, and that structure is determined by its minimum total potential energy. But in order to enable combinatorial permutations, the arrangement of the medium must be independent of minimum total potential energy – which both DNA and RNA are. This is what physically enables the system to have the informational capacity it requires to describe itself into memory (i.e. to begin the cell cycle, and heredity). It is also what enables the efficient transcription of that high-content information from one medium to another.

These are the types of empirical observations that a physicist (like Pattee and others) would be acquainted with, as well as someone like Barbieri. Or John von Neuman. Or Francis Crick.

You are not acquainted with them, and it’s a sure bet they didn’t appear in your masters thesis on the dynamics of translation. No sweat. I am sure your thesis described other areas of interest in a competent manner. But when you step out and rant on areas of empirical findings that you are uninformed about, you make a mistake. In order to organize the heterogeneous cell, you must first be able to specify a thing and place it under temporal control. This is what protein synthesis does, and the translation of an informational medium is the means to accomplish that effect. But the translation of an informational medium requires one arrangement of matter to serve as a representational medium (codons), and another arrangement of matter to establish what is being represented (aaRS). After all, no object in the material universe inherent specifies any other object in the material universe. Nucleobases do not represent or specify amino acids. They have to be organized in a discontinuous translation system (i.e. semiosis) in order to do so. And that is exactly what is found inside the cell. The material observations that identify the system aren’t even controversial.

– – – – – – – – – – – –

Critic: Thanks for the tripe.

“This discontinuity is a physical necessity for translation to occur, and is evident in all instances of semiotic translation.”

The discontinuity isn’t a physical necessity. You could easily imagine a scenario where amino acids were necessarily assigned to anticodons by chemical properties of tRNAs. I’m sorry but if you can’t get that right, you’re pretty hopeless, idiotically pedantic, and a navel gazer. Goodbye.

– – – – – – – – – – – –

UB: In logic, that’s called “special pleading”. Your imagination, frankly, doesn’t mean diddly. It doesn’t provide you with any exemptions.

The minimum requirement for the origin of the system is established by what is physically necessary to record and translate the amount of information that the system needs to successfully describe itself into memory. On this front, there is very little room. A cell that cannot provide a record of itself cannot begin the cell cycle. A cell that cannot translate a record of itself also cannot begin the cell cycle.

To accomplish what must be accomplished, several of these individual associations (generous estimates typically run between 12 to 15) will need to occur at the same time and place, while the details of their construction are simultaneously encoded in the very information that they make possible.

Odd, isn’t it. Nature passed up on the fully determined (comparatively easy) associations lurking in your imagination, and instead (already faced with an almost vertical face to climb) picked an unnecessary system that preserves the discontinuity between the arrangements and their effects. And even odder still, every system of translation that has ever been examined has followed that same pattern.

Special pleading indeed.  Goodbye.

This article was posted from ComplexityCafe.com

Comments
UB I've been reading the posts when I had time but I thought the convo had kinda left me behind. I'll post something tomorrow from workREW
March 17, 2016
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Back to Uncommon Descent! Where are the dissenters? Where are all the objectors?JDJones
March 17, 2016
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#84, Frankly, I am as confused as GP about your post at #43. Wha?Upright BiPed
March 17, 2016
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At the end of his post at #22, Barry Arrington asked REW a question:
To your credit you appear to be willing to engage. So let me ask you this question: Do you deny that the genetic translation system contains a natural (and necessary) discontinuity between the arrangement of the medium and the determination of its effect within the system?
I didn't see that REW ever answered that question. REW?Upright BiPed
March 17, 2016
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Me-Think: In fact he stated in some other thread that the Designer would use Quantum mechanical interface to control ‘improbable’ body processes. I, of course, don’t agree as QM is too probabilistic to be used as an interface. Your interest in this area of how the Creator/Designer interacts deals with a different kind of interface. But, to have a discussion about this requires leaving science behind and entering the realm of theology. Why? Because you're looking at one side of a "dual" reality. The Bible speaks of angelic powers. It speaks of "Wisdom," etc. Think of Michelangelo's Sistine Chapel painting of the Creation: two different types of reality with a single point of contact; only at the fingertips. It's sort of like the Big Bang: Pope Pius XII said that this theory confirms what the Bible teaches about creatio ex nihilo, while Fr. Georges LeMaitre, a Belgian Jesuit priest, said that this linkage must not be made. The mind wants to link these two together, but from a strictly scientific point of view, one must leave off. (Let me just add that nowadays physicists have become "theological" themselves, asking us to "believe" in multiverses.) Nevertheless, how do we answer the question: what came before the Big Bang? IOW, what's the 'Big Bang' connected to? How the Creator/Designer interacts with "creation" is a similar matter. Frankly, I have a great interest in QM. I'm intrigued with ways in which QM and GR can be united. And I even have my own pet theory. It is a theory that ultimately arises from a comment by Greg Lisi concerning his Very Simple E8 (IIRC) theory. However, it immediately gives rise to theological implications; deeply provocative ones from the standpoint of a believer. In terms of these ideas, if I'm correct, the kinds of questions you pose might have ready answers. However, first these ideas must be somehow established; and, if and when verified, there is again a necessary, though easy, step that has to be taken to arrive at the 'theological.' Put another way, the Bible says: "The heavens proclaim the glory of God." How do you prove this, exactly, in your nearby laboratory? Maybe a better example: the body of St. Rosalia was found in a cave three or four centuries after she died. Her body was, and I suppose still is, incorrupt. Science would say this is impossible. But it happened. So, now what do we do? Do we deny reality, or do we accept that science is NOT the source of ultimate knowledge? What will we decide? ID is at the intersection of all of this. One side is apparent--intelligence is at work in biological reality---while the other side---how does this come about exactly?---is not, and may never be. Again, the Bible says: "The God in whom we live and move and have our being." When we're dealing with "life," then we're dealing with God. And, oh, BTW, St. Paul is quoting the ancient Greeks in the quote above.PaV
March 17, 2016
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PaV @ 81
We’re all sort of scratching our heads a bit, especially gpuccio; and he is usually the most gracious of the bunch of us. IOW, you seem absolutely convinced of something that we, OTOH, can’t even seem to figure out.
I agree about GP - he is the most gracious, but he is confused about essential aminoacids, not about need for Designer's intervention. In fact he stated in some other thread that the Designer would use Quantum mechanical interface to control 'improbable' body processes. I, of course, don't agree as QM is too probabilistic to be used as an interface.Me_Think
March 16, 2016
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GP, Can I ask you a question? What is the shortest aaRS in the database, and how many aaRS does it take to produce it?Upright BiPed
March 16, 2016
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#79 Hi Origenes, sorry for the delay.
The fact that there is a ‘natural local necessary discontinuity’ strengthens the argument for irreducible complexity.
It is natural because no object in the universe inherently specifies/represents any other object in the universe. In this case, it is the contingent organization of the system that enables the arrangement of a codon to specify an amino acid. It is local because the organization of the discontinuity is context specific. A codon specifies an amino acid in this system, and nowhere else. It is necessary because, again, nucleobases do not represent amino acids. The system must be organized in a way that allows the pragmatic utility of specification to be realized in a material system. If amino acids had to be determined by the surface properties of three nucleobases, we would not be here to contemplate the issue. Yet with a system of discontinuous translation in place, the system becomes limited only by what is physically possible. So … “present leucine now” is not an effect that can be derived from any arrangement of three nucleotides in a codon. The “now” part of it can be derived from the placement of a signifying codon (a representation) within a linear sequence. But the “leucine” part requires a second arrangement of matter (the aaRS) to systematically establish what is being represented. The requirement of irreducible complexity is therefore demonstrated under inexorable law, and the function that is lost in its absence is the capacity to specify a thing and place it under temporal control -- i.e. the capacity organize the heterogeneous living cell. sidenote: My argument about semiosis was never intended to be an argument in favor of IC. It just turns out to be the case that a semiotic system is necessarily IC.
Second it is one of four conditions that are fundamental to translation, which strengthens the argument that we are dealing with genuine (translation of) information.
Yes.Upright BiPed
March 16, 2016
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Me_Think: It would be helpful if you simply stated your position on all these things. You have come to UD and taken a position none of us, I believe, have ever seen before. You are insisting that some "intelligence" is needed for "signalling" and this and that. You come here, then, with some presuppositions. The best thing to do, would be to simply state these presuppositions and then give evidence for their validity. We're all sort of scratching our heads a bit, especially gpuccio; and he is usually the most gracious of the bunch of us. IOW, you seem absolutely convinced of something that we, OTOH, can't even seem to figure out. Your certainty is not shared. No one has argued in the way you're seeming to argue. So, state your case directly, and try to convince us.PaV
March 16, 2016
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Me_Think: If you still believe that your discourse about essential aminoacids makes any sense, I suppose there is no hope.gpuccio
March 16, 2016
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Upright Biped, The fact that there is a 'natural local necessary discontinuity' strengthens the argument for irreducible complexity. Second it is one of four conditions that are fundamental to translation, which strengthens the argument that we are dealing with genuine (translation of) information. Those are the sole two reasons as to why you stress the discontinuity often. Do I understand this correctly?Origenes
March 16, 2016
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PaV, Thanks. Changing the arrangement of a codon changes its amino acid effect, but the codon does not physically determine which amino acid is presented -- that determination is made solely by the structure of the aaRS (i.e. instant local discontinuity). Forexhr, Thank you for the contribution. Dio, Thanks, I'll try to look them over.Upright BiPed
March 16, 2016
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UB, A few recent papers related to tRNA and translation referenced @ 1597-1600 here (linked 1600): https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/mystery-at-the-heart-of-life/#comment-600563Dionisio
March 16, 2016
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GP @ 74
Don’t you think that you should clarify your nonsense about essential aminoacids, before engaging in new creative nonsense?
There is nothing to clarify. Those who have understood have replied. In fact PaV's reply @ 69 is reasonable.I haven't replied because I don't have enough data about the ingestion of non-essential amino acid or the critical threshold which would change the non-essential aminoacid pathway to make the 'non-essential' pathway 'essential'. Neither microstates (statistical mechanics) nor Common descent is 'new creative nonsense'. If you think 'semiotic microstates' is nonsense, then I can't help because I have no clue about anyone using it scientifically either !Me_Think
March 16, 2016
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@Me_Think No, I believe in common designer. I am assuming absolutely nothing about the body. I stated three simple facts that are so obvious that nobody can deny it: a) any bio-structure is built of elementary constituents(atoms, molecules) like any other physical object. b) each constituent has a set of possible spatial states it can be in relation to another constituent. The collection of states of all the constituents is the microstate - one of the unimaginably huge number of different accessible arrangements of the constituents. c) pre-existing bio-structures are predetermining the microstates for subsequent bio-structures (e.g. intron-exon gene structure predetermines microstates of constituents forming rna splicing machinery(this is called semiotic relationship). Hence, the difference between semiotic microstates and microstate is the difference between the arrangements of molecules that are able to edit the nascent pre-messenger RNA transcript and the arrangement of molecules that are not able to perform that task.forexhr
March 16, 2016
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forexhr: Very good work! :) Me_Think: Don't you think that you should clarify your nonsense about essential aminoacids, before engaging in new creative nonsense?gpuccio
March 16, 2016
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forexhr @ 71
Since all components of biological systems are in semiotic relationships and since the number of cells in the human body is 3.72?×?10^13 it is physically impossible that evolutionary transitions from one microstate to another via random mutations would produce semiotic relationships
You don't believe in common descent? You are assuming body was created as a whole ? In fact you are assuming every part was as it is today ! What is the difference between semiotic microstates and microstate? A microstate can be calculated by N!/(N1!x(N-N1))!, where N is the Number of Microstate, N1 is the macrostate for which you want to calculate the microstate.Me_Think
March 16, 2016
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forexhr: Nice summary. A slightly different narrative, but ID through and through. A is predetermined by B. There's the crux of the matter. Call it 'complimentarity'.PaV
March 16, 2016
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All relationships between biological structures are semiotical which means that arrangement of molecules or cells forming the bio-structure A is predetermined by the bio-structure B. Otherwise functional biological interactions would be impossible. Examples: a) intron-exon gene structure predetermines that specific arrangement of molecules is nedded for editing of the nascent pre-messenger RNA transcript in which introns are removed and exons are joined together. This specific arrangement of molecules is called "rna splicing machinery". b) The structure of an egg cell predetermines that specific arrangement of molecules is nedded in order to initiate the development of a new individual organism. This specific arrangement of molecules is called "sperm". c) The structure of the substrate predetermines that a specific arrangement of molecules is nedded in order to accelerate or catalyze chemical reactions. This specific arrangement of molecules is called "enzyme". So, you can't just throw random bags of chemicals into the cell and expect splicing, fertilization or catalytic function to emerge. Specific arrangement of molecules is nedded. Since this specific arrangements are not predetermined in the laws of nature or in the properties of matter(like snowflakes are) and since all possible arrangements of molecules for ordinary collections of matter are inconveniently large it is physically impossible to achieve even theoretical semiotic relationship via random rearrangements of nucleotides in the dna, let alone temporary and spatially coordinated semiotic relationship, because biological structures are needed at the same time and place to interact functionally. Below I will explain why. Given a bio-structure (e.g., a heart valve), we view it as built from some elementary constituents(molecules, cells). Each constituent has a set of possible spatial states it can be in relation to another constituent. The collection of states of all the constituents is the microstate and it forms an identifiable collection of matter which may be more or less constrained to move together by translation or rotation, in 3-dimensional space. The semiotic microstate of the bio-structure represents the number of distinct biologically functional microstates versus and all possible microstates. For a system of a large number of constituents, like a bio-structure, the overwhelmingly probable microstate would be non-semiotic microstate. In other words, overwhelmingly probable microstate or random arrangement of elementary constituents that form a heart valve would be non-functional - not able to close off the atrium or not able to prevent the back flow of blood from the ventricle to the atrium when blood is pumped out of the ventricle. The specific arrangement of cells or semiotic microstate, allowing the valve to function properly is predetermined by the structure of the heart the same as the specific arrangement of the mobile phone battery is predetermined by the structure of the mobile phone. Now, we know that there is no natural tendency for atoms to move towards arrangements that would form the mobile phone battery because the mobile phone exists. The same is true for the heart valve or any other bio-structure - there is no natural tendency for nucleotides to move towards arrangements that would form a heart valve because other heart structures exists. So, the obvious question arises: how then semiotic relationship is achieved? From the perspective of evolutionary theory the only possible way to achieve semiotic relationship is via random mutations. But viewed from that perspective, one physical problem arises: where would you get the transitional resources to search for semiotic microstates in the in the vast sea of non-semiotic microstates. The heart valve for example consists of many millions of cells. Given the poly-3D*enumeration mathematics, only one thousand cells can be arrangement into approximately 8.37x10^3271 different microstates. *2^(n-7)n(n-9)(n-4)(8n^8-128n^7+828n^6-2930^5+7404^4-17523n^3+41527n^2-114302n+204960)/6 To put this into perspective. Using fast mutation rates and total number of organisms that have ever lived on Earth published extreme upper limit estimates puts the maximum number of transitional resources at 10^43. If we make a generous assumption that there are 10^1000 functional semiotic microstates in our collection of thousand cells, we have only 10^43 opportunities to find semiotic microstates, and that would, on average, require 10^2271 transitional resources. In other words, the entire sum of transitional resources operating over four billion years, would fall short by more than 2228 orders of magnitude in producing functional heart valve. Since all components of biological systems are in semiotic relationships and since the number of cells in the human body is 3.72x10^13 it is physically impossible that evolutionary transitions from one microstate to another via random mutations would produce semiotic relationships. Of course, ad hoc alibi in the form of natural selection does not work. Natural selection is NOT semiotic microstate search mechanism, but semiotic microstate spreading mechanism. Once semiotic microstate(bio-function) is found and enters the gene pool, natural selection can spread this microstate through the population. But the search for the semiotic microstates in the vast sea of non-semiotic microstates is completely random. p.s. Mechanical gears discovered on planthopper insects provide an opportunity to recognize semiotic relationship between bio-structures. Gear is a structure for transmitting rotational motion while leg is a locomotive structure. As such they are connected through their relation to a concept of motion. Evolution is not an intelligent agent to be able to conceive concepts. So the only available way to achieve mentioned semantic relationship is by pure chance. But, believing that semiotically undirected transformations from one microstate to another would create semiotic relationship is like believing that erosion processes would turn a piece of clay into clay replica of the Statue of Liberty. This replica would then represent specific arrangements of clay particles predetermined by a colossal neoclassical sculpture on Liberty Island in New York City just like arrangement of cells forming mechanical gears is predetermined by animal's legs. We all know that erosion processes can shape and reshape various physical objects(hence causing transitions from one microstate to another) the same as mutations can shape and reshape various bio-structures(e.g. causing tumors), but no rational person would claim that this processes are able to create predetermined arrangements of clay particles represented in the of Statue of Liberty. The reason nobody would believe that undirected transformations of matter could produce semiotic microstates, lies in the unimaginably huge number of different accessible arrangements of clay or particles. The same is true for bio-systems, but people believe the opposite because they have a prior commitment to materialism and atheism. And that commitment trumps all of the logical, mathematical or scientific reasons.forexhr
March 16, 2016
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UB: I read over my latest post above, and it seems to me we're saying the same thing but simply with different points of emphasis. The bottom line: DNA does not directly determine the amino acid through a series of chemical interactions. There's an independence that the aminoacyl-tRNA-synthetases provide.PaV
March 15, 2016
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Me_Think: No, I am saying the the codons which encode for that essential protein evolved after we started ingesting the essential protein because DNA would not have coded for something which is not in the body! For example how would the DNA when it evolved know that the organism will start ingesting Isoleucine in future and have code ATT/ ATC/ ATA for Isoleucine? The simplest answer would be this: the capacity to code for these amino acids was present from the beginning. Once organisms began ingesting these amino acids in high quantities, this capacity was shut down, the machinery needed to make them being eliminated.PaV
March 15, 2016
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KF: Loading can then be varied, it is contingent as is required for information conveyance. Yes, I would agree. The "anticodon" doesn't determine the amino acid, the synthetase does.PaV
March 15, 2016
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UB: My point was perhaps more subtle than I thought. Again, here's what you said up above: Changing the spatial arrangement of nucleotides in a codon changes which amino acid will be presented for binding, but the spatial arrangement of nucleotides in a codon does not determine which amino acid will be presented. Here's how I see this (subtly different): DNA "determines" (via RNA processing) the "codon." It does NOT, however, "determine" the "anticodon." The "anticodon" determines (via aa-tRNA-synthetase) the amino acid that is associated with that particular "anticodon." Two, separate systems. In your earlier remark to "Sam" you blurred this line a little bit. "Sam"'s remark about a chemical link between the anticodon and the amino acid misses the mark. The 'anticodon' is 'free' to associate with any amino acid. The chemistry doesn't really change that freedom. It's just a different way of configuring things. This 'freedom' is what makes "translation" possible, and which gives us the language of life. And, yes, as KF has posted (I had already read that prior), you can fiddle with the aa-tRNA-synthetase, and so "change" the language. If you look at how the aa-tRNA-synthetase operates, the 'naked' (without an amino acid) tRNA molecule, which is bound directly to the synthetase, already possesses the 'anticodon'. I think it's fairly clear that the presence of the amino acid--already bound to aa-tRNA-synthetase prior to the tRNA being bound---determines the "configuration" of the aatrnasynthetase, and, thus, makes it specific for the tRNA molecule with the "corresponding" (corresponding to the a.a.) "anticodon." Bottom line: it is the aa-tRNA synthetases that determine the language of translation. From wiki:
Both classes of aminoacyl-tRNA synthetases are multidomain proteins. In a typical scenario, an aaRS consists of a catalytic domain (where both the above reactions take place) and an anticodon binding domain (which interacts mostly with the anticodon region of the tRNA and ensures binding of the correct tRNA to the amino acid). In addition, some aaRSs have additional RNA binding domains and editing domains[2] that cleave incorrectly paired aminoacyl-tRNA molecules.
As to "Sam," he seems to fail to see that it is not DNA that determines the amino acids; rather, it's DNA that determines the codon. That's all it does. Then the aa-tRNA-synthetase takes over and "translates," a process independent of the DNA. Hence, the two systems operate independently of each other. Any "chemical" determinations of the DNA system cannot reach across the codong-anticodon divide. It's a wall that separates the two systems.PaV
March 15, 2016
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#51 addendum At the time mark 43:20 professor Alon apparently said that everything in biology is an invitation to a question. [whatever that means] :) However, haven't we heard that there are things in biology that are settled hence unquestionable? Are we seeing a contradiction here?Dionisio
March 15, 2016
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Me_Think @ 45 "Intersting.You mean even the codons for the ‘essential amino acids’ (‘Essential aminoacids’ means the body cannot synthesize it and must be obtained from the diet)were there before we started ingesting the essential amino acids?!" Humm? Maybe we were created! :)juwilker
March 15, 2016
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Me Thinks
No, I am saying the the codons which encode for that essential protein evolved after we started ingesting the essential protein because DNA would not have coded for something which is not in the body! For example how would the DNA when it evolved know that the organism will start ingesting Isoleucine in future and have code ATT/ ATC/ ATA for Isoleucine?
If you think deeply about the question you are asking, you will realize why there are so many skeptics that random change, natural selection, and neutral theory can account for the diversity we see. The story of life has many chicken and egg paradoxes just like the one you have identified here. Another is how did we get protein production when proteins require amino acids and amino acid production requires proteins. It appears that these systems arrived simultaneously. The simple to complex "story" was made up to explain a mystery. The only real evidence for life we have is that it started as a very complex system. Any other story is pure speculation.bill cole
March 15, 2016
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gpuccio @47
Now, for the moment I leave it to you to comment on how the above information relates to your last statement: “Considering this might illustrate ( or refute ) my point above”
After your explanatory 'blitzkrieg' that leaves little room (if any) for counterarguments, what else can your interlocutor say? :)Dionisio
March 15, 2016
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What has all this to do with the evolution of the genetic code?
Absolutely nothing whatsoever. :)Upright BiPed
March 15, 2016
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Me-Think: "No, I am saying the the codons which encode for that essential protein evolved after we started ingesting the essential protein because DNA would not have coded for something which is not in the body!" Are you serious???? Codons and the DNA code evolved billions of years ago, when we did not exist, least of all ingest anything. First living beings were certainly autotroph. Proteins are not essential, only some AAs are essential in some species, like humans. What has all this to do with the evolution of the genetic code? Frankly, I can't understand if you are serious and confused, or if you are simply playing tricks.gpuccio
March 15, 2016
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KF @ 58
MT, so do you mean to suggest proteins in humans should not use essential AAs that can be obtained by simply eating? KF
No, I am saying the the codons which encode for that essential protein evolved after we started ingesting the essential protein because DNA would not have coded for something which is not in the body! For example how would the DNA when it evolved know that the organism will start ingesting Isoleucine in future and have code ATT/ ATC/ ATA for Isoleucine? Edit: Sorry for double PostMe_Think
March 15, 2016
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