Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

An Exchange With FG, Part 2

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I come back to FG, because I think he is seriously trying to engage with ID, and I am very pleased to report that he is making significant progress.

In my post “Who Designed the Designer Argument Demolished in Three Easy Steps”  I demonstrated that the infinite regress argument has no real force by giving what FG called a “concrete example” of how a design inference can be valid in the complete absence of any knowledge of who the designer was or where he/she came from.

FG writes. “When applied to a single concrete example like the one you gave, your inference could be valid . . .”

Wonderful!

FG then slips when he says: “The infinite regress problem is real and does defeat ID the moment your argument is invoked to explain first life.”

Not so. ID posits the following: CSI and IC have never been directly observed to have arisen though chance or mechanical necessity or a combination of the two. Conversely, CSI and IC are routinely observed to have been produced by intelligent agents. Moreover, intelligent agents leave behind indicia of their acts that can be objectively discerned. Therefore, using abductive reasoning, the best explanation for CSI and IC is “act of intelligent agent.”

How does this apply to first life? (By “first life” I presume FG means “first life on earth.”) Well, we cannot directly examine first life to determine whether it exhibited CSI and IC. We can only observe existing life, and when we do we find that even the most simple extant life forms are staggeringly complex. From this observation we infer that the first life on earth also exhibited CSI and IC. (To be sure, some would attempt to deny that first life is complex, but given the unanimous verdict to the contrary of all of our observations simple logic suggests that the burden is on those who make such a suggestion to demonstrate its plausibility.)

We cannot know for certain whether first life exhibited CSI and IC. ID merely says that if it did, the best explanation for the existence of the CSI and IC in first life is best explained by “act of intelligent agent.”

This is where FG goes off the rails. He/she asks “But who designed first life? By definition first life could not have been designed by a living being.” The answer is, as I have said many times before, ID does not examine the question “What is the source of all design?” ID examines the question “Is this particular thing designed?” And it says of the particular thing “first life on earth” that if it exhibited CSI and IC the best explanation for the existence of that CSI and IC is “act of intelligent agent.” A physicist (when he is doing physics) does not ask, “Why is there something instead of nothing?” Similarly, an ID proponent (when he is doing science) does not ask, “What is the ultimate source of all CSI and IC?”

Why is this? Because questions like “Why is there something instead of nothing?” and “What is the ultimate source of all CSI and IC?” are simply not subject to scientific investigation. This does not mean that grand metaphysical or philosophical questions like these are uninteresting. They are very interesting (even vitally important). Nevertheless, the answer to these questions cannot be investigated by scientific means.

Wittgenstein famously wrote: “Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent.” As a scientist a physicist cannot speak to the question “Why is there something instead of nothing?” Therefore, he must remain silent on that question. As a scientist an ID proponent cannot speak to the question “What is the ultimate source of all CSI and IC?” Therefore, he must remain silent on that question.

Therefore, to FG I say, many ID proponents have a view of the source of all CSI and IC. But those views are of the “metaphysical, philosophical and religious” sort. They are not scientific views and for that reason are not subject to scientific investigation. However, with respect to any particular, as you say, “concrete example” of CSI and IC, ID proponents argue that the best explanation for its existence is “act of intelligent agent.”

Comments
PS: FG, to save a long exchange, kindly note that in the just linked, the issue of a necessary being is tied to the question of self-moved, self-directed beings as first causes. Once there is no reason to confine "life" to biological cell based life, it is entirely possible for there to be other classes of self-moved being, indeed, there are serious arguments that point to a self-moved being as the causal root of the cosmos we experience. Have you interacted as yet with Plato's discussion of the self-moved in The Laws, Bk X? If not, why then are you claiming to have found something comparable to the Barber's paradox?kairosfocus
August 11, 2011
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FG: Have you lit a match, half burned then tilted it head up, watched the result and asked yourself about causal factors and contingent vs necessary being yet? If not, understand please that until you understand and address the issues here, you are in no position to assert a serious view on the matter. And so far, you have been ducking aside. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
August 11, 2011
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As a quick heads-up, I a working on a response. My objection to the way Barry has laid out his argument is not one of 'who designed the desgner?'. It is more akin to the barber's paradox. I believe that Barry either has to qualify his argument and restrict it to a subset of life, or allow for the possibility of non-living intelligence. The way he has presented it though, and certainly now that he wants to extend it to first life, it is like the barber's paradox: a seemingly logic argument that on closer inspection turns out to be impossible. More later. fGfaded_Glory
August 10, 2011
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SA: FG et al are studiously avoiding the issues and points on cause, contingent and necessary beings, and the alternatives on life. I still invite them to reflect with me ont he implicaitons of what happens when a match is truck and half burned then tilted until the head is straight up. Then, compare the truth expressed in 2 + 3 = 5,then look at the issue of contingent vs necessary beings in light of necessary causal factors. Try here. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
August 10, 2011
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Avocationist, Point being that if life as we know it requires an intelligent designer, then that designer could not also have been alive in the same way that biological life forms are. Why couldn't life on earth have been designed by others of a similar form? It sounds unlikely to me too, but that's hardly a basis for ruling it out or for imagining a paradox where one doesn't exist. What if we just don't know what type of life designed this life? Unknowns are okay. They don't have to be unknown forever. Rejecting a line of inquiry because it leads to an unknown really is a science stopper. The only objection left is infinite regression. As explained previously, any explanation of anything leads to infinite regression. Try it. Explain the computer on your desk, what caused it, what caused it, etc., and sooner or later you get to the point where you don't know what caused the previous cause, but you know that it still needed a cause, etc. But you still know where your computer came from, and you can even go a few steps back from there. We don't need to know what caused the Big Bang before we can explore causes for what's right in front of us.ScottAndrews
August 10, 2011
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RH7: The core design of life on earth is unified, with many key conventions in common [start with the chirality of proteins and the opposite chirality of nucleic acids], a signal of unified control on the design. The design of the cosmos is even more strongly unified, starting with laws and material constituents. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
August 10, 2011
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What is it about dogs that makes them appear to be the product of a different designers?
The development of dog breeds took thousands of years in locations across the globe - this fact is not disputed. Thus it's the primary reason why we infer the many dozens of breeds to be the work of (many thousands of) different designers. Also worth noting is the improbability that pockets of intra-species types, like the Daschund, Grey Hound, could have occurred without intelligent design, as O'Leary explains: There are only certain ways that dogs can really live in the wild. For example, a greyhound can run faster than a wolf, because he doesn’t have heavy jaws – but what happens when he catches up with the prey? Someone throws him a bag of Science Diet for Adult Working Dogs, right? Human interventions almost always assume that we protect the life form from the normal routine of nature – otherwise there would be no reason to bother. And nature is limited to certain routines. A wild animal that cannot feed itself will die. But a Bassett Hound can live as long as its owner is willing to pay for advanced veterinary medicine, necessitated in part by the odd way the creature was bred. If all the dogs in the world ran away, 50 years later, you would likely see only nature's usual wolfhound type.rhampton7
August 10, 2011
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Chiefly, time and location.
Is this in response to my question about dogs? The sign of intelligent activity in dogs is time and location?Mung
August 10, 2011
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Point being that if life as we know it requires an intelligent designer, then that designer could not also have been alive in the same way that biological life forms are.
1. It would be scientifically presumptuous to state that there was only one designer to begin life on Earth. 2. Stephen Meyer also recognizes additional acts of Intelligent Design billions of years after the appearance of life. It would be scientifically presumptuous to state that the two events are attributable to the same designer(s).rhampton7
August 10, 2011
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Chiefly, time and location. That's a standard practice in fields that utilize the detection of intelligence, like Archeology.rhampton7
August 10, 2011
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Scott @15 You are right, I should have expressed it differently. I was not referring to a mind which had once had a body. I was rephrasing the argument as I see it, and in which FG made the same point in an earlier thread. Point being that if life as we know it requires an intelligent designer, then that designer could not also have been alive in the same way that biological life forms are.avocationist
August 10, 2011
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p.s. What is it about dogs that makes them appear to be the product of a different designers?Mung
August 10, 2011
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So according to you, dogs look like they are the product of intelligent actions? By that measure, doesn't every single species on the planet look like the product of intelligent actions?Mung
August 10, 2011
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Mung, A great example is the domestication and breeding of dogs. It's the result of many thousands of intelligent designers working over many thousands of years to create all manner of forms for all sorts of reasons.rhampton7
August 10, 2011
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By the way, I'd like to point out your original argument: Therefore the best explanation for the long history of intelligent actions is that of multiple designers. I'm asking for an example.Mung
August 10, 2011
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rhampton7, Are you saying that you can't give an actual example of a living organism that appears to have been designed by a different designer? So can't I, using abductive reasoning, infer that they all had the same designer?Mung
August 10, 2011
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avocationist @13, That's a false choice between a biological life form like ourselves and one that is disembodied. Why would "disembodied," which implies having a physical body and then being separated from it, even be one of the choices?ScottAndrews
August 10, 2011
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Barry, Thanks for the follow up. I am rather busy right now but I will try to post a response later today, or else tomorrow. fGfaded_Glory
August 9, 2011
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Faded Glory asks a legitimate question, which is whether a designer could at least be imagined as a possibility. It may be outside the purview of answerable scientific questions, but it's a question a skeptic would naturally ask. But I seem to recall someone answered it well on a previous thread. Where she's stuck, and Rhampton as well, is in thinking that the designer had to be a biological life form like ourselves, and obviously it could not be. So the question they are really asking is whether there could be a mind capable of acting within or upon the cosmos that is not embodied.avocationist
August 9, 2011
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On your analogy, would it still be a correct assumption that the thousand ear old sundial, the hundred year old watch and digital watch were the work of multiple designers if it were found that inside each one was built from the exact same formulation of aluminum?
Certainly possible - the designers may have used the same metallurgical process or obtained the aluminum from the same source (which could be another designer precedent to the three or more clock designers) Point is, when we make inferences about intelligent agents, we make logical conclusions based on what we already know to be true about said intelligent agents.
What would make you think that a designer (or consortium of designers) would need to be in any way similar to life on earth?
I can only say that we do not know of an intelligent agent that is capable of living for several billion years, or without impairment of it intellectual capabilities in much shorter frames of time. Entropy is particularly cruel to biological life.rhampton7
August 9, 2011
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We can’t use the product (ourselves) to measure what produced it.
Sure we can, or at least that's how understand Meyer's argument for Intelligent Design - logical inferences based on observable cases of intelligence and the information it creates. ...postulations of design are constrained by theoretical competition. The plausibility of historical theories must be adjudicated against background information about the causal powers and proclivities of both nature and agency. Intelligent design can be offered, therefore, as a necessary or best historical explanation only when available naturalistic processes seem incapable of producing the explanandum effect, and when intelligence is known to be capable of, and thought inclined to, produce it. Thus, modern scientific advocates of intelligent design such as Charles Thaxton, Walter Bradley, Dean Kenyon, Michael Behe and William Dembski insist that they postulate antecedent intelligent activity, not because of what we do not know, but because of what we do know about what is, and is not, capable of producing, for example, "information" (Meyer, Thaxton and Bradley and Kenyon)...rhampton7
August 9, 2011
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Rhampton7- What would make you think that a designer (or consortium of designers) would need to be in any way similar to life on earth? On your analogy, would it still be a correct assumption that the thousand ear old sundial, the hundred year old watch and digital watch were the work of multiple designers if it were found that inside each one was built from the exact same formulation of aluminum?SteveGoss
August 9, 2011
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rhampton7, Your reasoning is, well, reasonable. But the only thing we can infer about the designer or designers is intelligence. We can't use the product (ourselves) to measure what produced it. If someone makes an ice sculpture could we accurately say that person must only live a few hours?ScottAndrews
August 9, 2011
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Mung, Between the first cell and the Cambrian is a span of several billion years - a span far greater than the life of any known intelligent agent (or any known form of life). Furthermore, given the complex intricacies of these designs, it would seem to be beyond the capabilities of any single intelligent agent. Thus by abductive reasoning, we can infer that there were multiple designers. To use an old analogy, if we stumbled upon a clock in a forest, we would correctly surmise it to have been designed by an intelligence. Like wise, if we found a thousand year old sundial, a hundred year old pocket watch, and a modern digital watch, we would correctly surmise the design (and construction) to be the work of multiple intelligences of multiple generations.rhampton7
August 9, 2011
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Well, I agree the Cambrian explosion is a bit of an enigma, but after that? Don't we have a lot of variation on a theme? Can you give a specific example of something that would indicate a different designer? Let's say that Venter et al. succeed: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mycoplasma_laboratorium Someone looking at that, and other extant life, would infer multiple designers?Mung
August 9, 2011
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What long history of intelligent actions
Stephen Meyer believes that, in addition to the first appearance of Life on Earth and/or the first cell, intelligent actions occurred many times thereafter: Contrary to Darwinian orthodoxy, the fossil record actually challenges the idea that all organisms have evolved from a single common ancestor. Why? Fossil studies reveal "a biological big bang" near the beginning of the Cambrian period (520 million years ago) when many major, separate groups of organisms or "phyla" (including most animal body plans) emerged suddenly without clear precursors. Fossil finds repeatedly have confirmed a pattern of explosive appearance and prolonged stability in living forms, not the gradual "branching-tree" pattern implied by Darwin's common ancestry thesis. There are also reasons to doubt the creative power of Darwin's mechanism of natural selection. While many scientists accept that natural selection can produce small-scale "micro-evolutionary" variations, many biologists now doubt that natural selection and random mutations can generate the large-scale changes necessary to produce fundamentally new structures and forms of life.rhampton7
August 9, 2011
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That which must need to have existed in order for all subsequent things to exist must have contained all necessary and excellent possibilities within itself always which must be life and must mean we are talking about eternal life. For while speaking of eternal life as prior to and foundational to material finite causes may sound strange and absurd upon first hearing to untrained minds, speaking of finite life or non life, birth and death and material causes is more absurd. Just as speaking of life from death vs life from life is. Finite temporal material causes only appear to be beginnings in a space time order and so mislead the philosopher scientist who will not follow the lead of physical logic which points to another cause. “Behold, there exist the sky and the earth. They cry out that they have been made... They cry out also that they did not make themselves: we are because we have been made; we were not before we were, to be able to be made by ourselves.” — Ecce sunt coelum et terra, clamant quod facta sunt… Clamant etiam quod se ipsa non fecerint: ideo sumus quia facta sumus; non ergo eramus, antequam essemus, ut fieri possemus a nobis. Et vox clamantium est ipsa evidentia (St. Augustine, Conf. xi, 4).Michael Servetus
August 9, 2011
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Therefore the best explanation for the long history of intelligent actions is that of multiple designers.
What long history of intelligent actions?Mung
August 9, 2011
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Conversely, CSI and IC are routinely observed to have been produced by intelligent agents. Moreover, intelligent agents leave behind indicia of their acts that can be objectively discerned. Therefore, using abductive reasoning, the best explanation for CSI and IC is “act of intelligent agent.”
Also, by abductive reasoning, we can infer that there were multiple designers. Intelligent agents are mortal beings with lifespans that are woefully insufficient to span the appearance of life on Earth to the appearance of Man. Therefore the best explanation for the long history of intelligent actions is that of multiple designers.rhampton7
August 9, 2011
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I find it interesting that FG refuses to light and half burn a match then tilt the head straight up, and report on what happens and what it illustrates, then contrast the related significance of the truth expressed in 2 + 3 = 5.kairosfocus
August 9, 2011
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