Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

An Exchange With FG, Part 2

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I come back to FG, because I think he is seriously trying to engage with ID, and I am very pleased to report that he is making significant progress.

In my post “Who Designed the Designer Argument Demolished in Three Easy Steps”  I demonstrated that the infinite regress argument has no real force by giving what FG called a “concrete example” of how a design inference can be valid in the complete absence of any knowledge of who the designer was or where he/she came from.

FG writes. “When applied to a single concrete example like the one you gave, your inference could be valid . . .”

Wonderful!

FG then slips when he says: “The infinite regress problem is real and does defeat ID the moment your argument is invoked to explain first life.”

Not so. ID posits the following: CSI and IC have never been directly observed to have arisen though chance or mechanical necessity or a combination of the two. Conversely, CSI and IC are routinely observed to have been produced by intelligent agents. Moreover, intelligent agents leave behind indicia of their acts that can be objectively discerned. Therefore, using abductive reasoning, the best explanation for CSI and IC is “act of intelligent agent.”

How does this apply to first life? (By “first life” I presume FG means “first life on earth.”) Well, we cannot directly examine first life to determine whether it exhibited CSI and IC. We can only observe existing life, and when we do we find that even the most simple extant life forms are staggeringly complex. From this observation we infer that the first life on earth also exhibited CSI and IC. (To be sure, some would attempt to deny that first life is complex, but given the unanimous verdict to the contrary of all of our observations simple logic suggests that the burden is on those who make such a suggestion to demonstrate its plausibility.)

We cannot know for certain whether first life exhibited CSI and IC. ID merely says that if it did, the best explanation for the existence of the CSI and IC in first life is best explained by “act of intelligent agent.”

This is where FG goes off the rails. He/she asks “But who designed first life? By definition first life could not have been designed by a living being.” The answer is, as I have said many times before, ID does not examine the question “What is the source of all design?” ID examines the question “Is this particular thing designed?” And it says of the particular thing “first life on earth” that if it exhibited CSI and IC the best explanation for the existence of that CSI and IC is “act of intelligent agent.” A physicist (when he is doing physics) does not ask, “Why is there something instead of nothing?” Similarly, an ID proponent (when he is doing science) does not ask, “What is the ultimate source of all CSI and IC?”

Why is this? Because questions like “Why is there something instead of nothing?” and “What is the ultimate source of all CSI and IC?” are simply not subject to scientific investigation. This does not mean that grand metaphysical or philosophical questions like these are uninteresting. They are very interesting (even vitally important). Nevertheless, the answer to these questions cannot be investigated by scientific means.

Wittgenstein famously wrote: “Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent.” As a scientist a physicist cannot speak to the question “Why is there something instead of nothing?” Therefore, he must remain silent on that question. As a scientist an ID proponent cannot speak to the question “What is the ultimate source of all CSI and IC?” Therefore, he must remain silent on that question.

Therefore, to FG I say, many ID proponents have a view of the source of all CSI and IC. But those views are of the “metaphysical, philosophical and religious” sort. They are not scientific views and for that reason are not subject to scientific investigation. However, with respect to any particular, as you say, “concrete example” of CSI and IC, ID proponents argue that the best explanation for its existence is “act of intelligent agent.”

Comments
FG: Pardon me but you are beginning to come across like the scholastic scholars who refused to look at Jupiter etc for themselves through Galileo's telescope. You have had -- for about a week now -- a serious answer to your claimed dilemma and your claimed contradiction. You have found a threadbare excuse to avoid addressing it. Not even to do the simple half burned match exercise. That is telling, sadly telling. Let's sum up: there is no dilemma and there is no contradictory challenge of first life coming from non-living intelligence, as there is the option that life that is biological is causally rooted in a necessary being that is powerful enough to build a cosmos, knowledgeable and intelligent enough to make it a fine tuned one suited for C-chemistry cell based life, has the purpose to decide to do that, and the skill to actually carry it out. that is, we see here a self-moved, ensouled, creative necessary being. That is we have here a candidate root of life that is living and is without cause as without dependence on an on/off switch -- a necessary causal factor. And, so stringent is the charge, contradiction, that simply a logically possible state of affairs -- it does not at all have to be plausible to you, just logically possible -- suffices to overturn it, as I took time to explain above. But, beyond that, there is serious reason to consider that it is plausible indeed, even, reasonable that his may well be the actual state of affairs. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
August 12, 2011
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RH7, 75:
In the DeBroglie-Bohm model, however, the pot of tea and everything else in the universe is absolutely necessary in determining the outcome of the match being struck.
pardon, but you are simply distracting yourself with irrelevancies. Once we see that no radium atom, no decay of same, we see an example of how quantum phenomena are -- even trivially -- subject to necessary causal conditions and so are by force of logic, not a-causal. We know per observation that the tilted up half burned match will make the flame try to burn the already burned part, and -- lacking in the heat level to burn carbon [and remember a bot of sodium dropped onto water can strip the O out of the water to burn!] -- the flame will die out. What is central here is that we see necessary causal factors in action as realities of our world. We live in a world in which there are on/off switches, and a lot of things are dependent on the switches being on. That is what then raises the issue of the always on -- without an on/off switch. As was again just discussed. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
August 12, 2011
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For non-living process read non-living entity. fGfaded_Glory
August 12, 2011
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avocationist, Your second question: "What do you mean by a nonliving entity or process? An ‘entity’ implies a being, and if this being gives life, how do you decide it isn’t alive?" Good question. However, if we decide that that what created first life is alive by virtue of it being a life-giving entity, we haven't really solved the paradox, haven't we? It is interesting to see how so many of us (I'd wager all of us, actualy) wade into these discussions bandying terms and words around, and thinking that we all know what they mean and that we all agree on their meaning. As the conversations unfold we often get to a point where the block to concluding them sucessfully turns out to be that we do not actually agree on the meaning of the words we use. Unfortunately at that point I have seen many of the conversations here bog down, or worse, end in annoying cyberspats. I guess what I mean by a non-living process is one that fails the critter test. Is it a live critter, a dead critter or not a critter at all? Tongue in cheek, sure, but I don't have the stomach to go into a death match on definitions. I think we probably agree closely enough on what is alive and what is not that we can live with some fuzziness at the boundary. What do you say? fGfaded_Glory
August 12, 2011
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Avo, 77:
You have said that if the being is not logically impossible, it will be actual. Can you explain that?
I am discussing necessary beings here; as opposed to impossible ones, which are by definition non-beings. If you do the match exercise -- and all of us should do it to give us a common empirical/ observational base, you will see how a flame is a contingent being. (Notice how the objectors tip-toe around this case study? That should tell you something.) The flame depends for its existence on three necessary causal factors, that together happen to be sufficient: fuel [i.e. inclusive of the required chain reaction], oxidiser, heat. (Even, spontaneous combustion, as I clipped Wiki above on.) We thus see --
here we are looking at the logic of cause [and no prizes for guessing why, under present political correctness, we have not been taught this in Science 101 courses! This stuff is red-hot, and most unwelcome or even utterly confusing and controversial in very powerful quarters! (There is such a thing as induced incomprehensibility, when one is committed to a system that blocks ability to see what would otherwise be obvious.)] . . .
-- how a contingent being depends on an external, necessary causal factor, so that it can be "switched on" or "switched off." This is the root of the saying that if something begins or can cease from being it has a cause. ["Cause" is the label, causation is the reality. And the good old burning match case is an apt illustration that allows us to break through some heavy-duty mental blocks, if we are willing. remember the old stories of those who refused to look through Galileo's telescope and see for themselves? Guess why several people over the past week or so have apparently refused to do the match exercise, and certainly will not discuss it . . . ] It is also the root of the point that once we see this possibility and reality of necessary causes, we can realise that things that begin are not a-causal. (Hence, too. my repeated remarks above that typical quantum phenomena -- contrary to a lot of sloppy discussions from surprising sources -- are not a-causal.) There are two other possibilities: necessary beings, and impossible beings. An impossible being is one whose existence would be self contradictory, like a circle square. Being circular implies NOT being square, and the converse, so such a being is not possible, it cannot exist. Now the third logical possibility is a being that is both logically possible and has in it no external, necessary causal factors. Such a being would have no beginning, and as there is nothing to switch it off, is also without an end of being. The truth in the expression 2 + 3 = 5 is an example [you should see Russell in the famous debate with Fr Copeleston hasten to wall off this type of case before trying to argue for actual infinite regresses -- astonishing!], just to illustrate the existence of such a being. This truth was always so, and will always be so, on pain of reduction to absurdity. Now, you will note that it is being argued that if a necessary being is possible, it is actual. That is, such a being is being contrasted to IMPOSSIBLE beings. Impossible beings, of course are not actual. Here is Maverick Philosopher, who has spoken aptly:
Nicolai Hartmann, Moeglichkeit und Wirklichkeit, p. 29 . . . Hartmann is saying in effect that everything contingent is actual, and that the contingent and the necessary are polar opposites: what is contingent is not necessary, and what is not necessary is contingent. I beg to differ. First of all, not everything contingent is actual. My being asleep now and my being awake (= not asleep) now are both possible states of affairs. The second is actual, the first is not. But both are contingent. So not everything contingent is actual. The imagery of possible worlds ought to make this graphic for the modally challenged. A contingent state of affairs is one that obtains in some but not all possible worlds. Now my being asleep now obtains in some but not all possible worlds. Therefore, my being asleep now is contingent though not actual. So not everything contingent is actual. Second, it is not the case that x is contingent if and only if x is not necessary. For there are states of affairs that are not necessary but also not contingent. My being both awake and not awake now is an impossible state of affairs. It is neither necessary nor contingent. Not necessary, because it does not obtain in every possible world. Not contingent, because it it does not obtain in some (but not all) possible worlds. The polar opposite of the contingent is not the necessary but the the noncontingent. The noncontingent embraces both the the necessary and the impossible, that which exists/obtains in all worlds, and that which exists/obtains in no world. Reality, then, is modally tripartite:
The necessary: that which exists/obtains in all possible worlds. The contingent: that which exists/obtains in some but not all possible worlds. The impossible: that which exists/obtains in no possible world.
You say you are uncomfortable with the patois of possible worlds? The distinctions can be sliced without this jargon. The necessary is that which cannot not be. The contingent is that which is possible to be and possible not to be. The impossible is that which cannot be. And that's all she wrote, modally speaking.
Are we just playing with idle abstract concepts here? So, the question of mere ivory tower circularity arises? NO. For, to bring out the way existence of a candidate necessary being that is not an impossibility is implicated as actual, let us deal with the key case in view. We live in a world where there is something, not nothing. An observed cosmos that by common consent on the results of science since the 1920's - 60's, is seen as contingent, i.e. it had a beginning. Did it come from an infinite regress? No, as it is impossible to stepwise traverse such a regress, and reach to now. [Just as you cannot count up 1, 2, 3 . . . infinity-1, infinity, no more, you cannot count down from minus-infinity to zero.] Besides, such a cosmos would have already reached heat death by which the energy concentrations that lead to gradients that drive change, including life, would have dissipated. Did something come from nothing? No, as something will not come from a REAL nothing. No matter, space, energy, time, laws of reality, mind, etc. If there was nothing to begin with, there would be nothing to follow. Something ultimately had to be there and had to be always there, for there to be a world in which we can live today. The question is not if there was a beginningless entity, but what it is. And, by the force of the logic, such an entity is one without causal dependence on an external necessary factor -- there is no on/off switch for it, it is always "on," in any actual or possible world. We already saw that for something like the truth being expressed in our symbols string: 2 + 3 = 5. Where also 2 + 2 = 5 is an impossible being. So, strange as it seems to us, we have tow modes of actual existence: that which is contingent, dependent on at least one on/off condition, and that which is necessary, that which has no on/off switch. Impossible beings, like circle squares [contrary to that old TV programme!], simply are not actual. Is the observed universe the necessary being? Nope, as it is contingent. So, then, what is? A multiverse? By common presentations, such would be a cluster of the contingent, distributed by chance to form a population of actual worlds, a set of sub universes that are this way or that, with distributed parameters and laws -- with us as a happy chance outcome. Oops, the sub cosmi are then contingent, we need the "bakery" to cook them up. So, something lies aback such a speculative -- there is a want of empirical data -- suggested world. That leads to the need for a cosmos bakery that can cook up such fine-tuned for life sub-cosmi as we represent. In Collins' words:
Suppose we went on a mission to Mars, and found a domed structure in which everything was set up just right for life to exist. The temperature, for example, was set around 70 °F and the humidity was at 50%; moreover, there was an oxygen recycling system, an energy gathering system, and a whole system for the production of food. Put simply, the domed structure appeared to be a fully functioning biosphere. What conclusion would we draw from finding this structure? Would we draw the conclusion that it just happened to form by chance? Certainly not. Instead, we would unanimously conclude that it was designed by some intelligent being. Why would we draw this conclusion? Because an intelligent designer appears to be the only plausible explanation for the existence of the structure. That is, the only alternative explanation we can think of--that the structure was formed by some natural process--seems extremely unlikely. Of course, it is possible that, for example, through some volcanic eruption various metals and other compounds could have formed, and then separated out in just the right way to produce the "biosphere," but such a scenario strikes us as extraordinarily unlikely, thus making this alternative explanation unbelievable. The universe is analogous to such a "biosphere," according to recent findings in physics . . . . Scientists call this extraordinary balancing of the parameters of physics and the initial conditions of the universe the "fine-tuning of the cosmos" . . . For example, theoretical physicist and popular science writer Paul Davies--whose early writings were not particularly sympathetic to theism--claims that with regard to basic structure of the universe, "the impression of design is overwhelming" (Davies, 1988, p. 203) . . .
So, we are back to a cosmos-bakery, the issue has been pushed back one step by the multiverse, not eliminated. Do we have a bakery that somehow was just there and could not have been otherwise? Or, are we looking at a cosmic architect who set up the bakery, and who would be the candidate necessary being of relevance? [And, nope, I am NOT making the inference that this is God, though the theistic view is an obvious presentation of this idea.] Now, could the cosmic architect be a platonic demiurge? Well, that demiurge found the forms in being and found formless chaotic matter to be shaped on the forms, however imperfectly. Nope, we are not there yet. H'mm, try out ying-yang, a duality of opposed forms. Or even a quarrelling pantheon. that indeed gets us to the diversity, but it has a big hole in the middle: how then do we find a unity? We need a unified, necessary being capable of explaining a fine tuned cosmos such as we inhabit, or at least the bakery that cooks up such sub-cosmi. Such a being is powerful, intelligent, purposeful, knowledgeable, skilled and creative. Thus, self-moved and ensouled, in Plato's terms. Living, though prior to biological life. You may propose other candidates as you will, but you will understand why theists see this as a case where cosmology, once it established a beginning, and once it has shown just how credibly fine-tuned the cosmos is for life, points to a unified, necessary, intelligent, purposeful, creative being. (And BTW, Christian theists, see the required unity as also embracing diversity! That gets us into another worldviews debate on explaining the one and the many.) That now old story about astrophysicists rushing out from their observatories to get baptised and join the First Church of God, big bang was not simply a joke. Like all great jokes, it has a bite of reality to it. Nope, the matter is not a confession of guilt on the charge of being a theist, but the context of the results of the science. The science came first, reluctantly, and the inference that God is now on the table as a very viable reality indeed, came after. (And, notice, we are here underscoring that biological ID issues do not implicate design of life by a creator within or beyond the world, i.e. we have a that tweredun case on this, not a whodunit case. Of course, even through "assistants," the setting up of a fine tuned cosmos in which such life is facilitated, points to ultimate cause in the necessary being behind the cosmos.) Okay, I hope that helps us all see why modes of being boil down to being exhausted by the contingent and the necessary, impossibility being a non-mode. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
August 12, 2011
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avocationist, Can you please remind me of which posts these are? There are quite a lot, some maintain that I am asking 'who designed the designer', which I am not; others suggest that we can avoid the paradox by positing uncaused life (not sure how that avoids the paradox - life is still life, whether it is caused or uncaused; besides, I think the idea of uncaused life carries a lot of bagage that sometimes makes people overlook some implications: once we allow for uncaused life, why not propose the simple solution that first life on Earth was uncaused? I have suggested several solutions myself: - make it clear that the argument only applies to life we can actually investigate (like Barry's Jerry Coyne example). Don't extrapolate it from there to first life because it will blow up. The consequence of this is that ID, in the form of Barry's argument at least, is agnostic on the question of what caused first life. I would readily agree with that - I am agnostic myself on that question because I accept that we simply don't know. - an alternative solution is not to (silently) rule out the possibility of non-living intelligence. First life could theoretically be the product of non living processes that could be clasified as intelligent on the strenght of what they manage to achieve. I realise that this opens the huge can of worms of what intelligence is, what its prerequisites are, and so on - but why would ID shy away from such discussions if Intelligence is such a central part of its tenet? There may well be other ways to prevent the paradox. Leaving Barry's argument stand as it is though, is not valid, imho. fGfaded_Glory
August 12, 2011
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OK, FG, but neither have you (yet) responded to the two or three posts that I think address your problem. What do you mean by a nonliving entity or process? An 'entity' implies a being, and if this being gives life, how do you decide it isn't alive?avocationist
August 12, 2011
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tgpeeler said: ------------- "This is true. But here’s how the logic works. There had to be a first life. No? Yes. If there were no first life there would be no life at all. But there is life, so there must have been first life. So far, so good. Nothing to see here folks, move right along. But here’s the rub and here’s where the infinite regress problem gets solved. I think I can safely say that every cell ever observed in all of human history came from another cell. In fact, although I am no biologist, not even close, I believe that is part of “cell theory.” The biology version of quantum physics, maybe. So we understand that all cells that we have ever seen come from other cells. Another way to say this is that life comes from life. So what about the FIRST life? That’s the 14.5 Trillion dollar question, isn’t it? The first life CANNOT (read and think carefully here) be like all of the other life BECAUSE all of the other life came from (was caused by) prior life. But there is nothing prior to FIRST. That’s what the word means (law of identity, which you evidently have some regard for since you cited the law of non-contradiction (LNC) which is just another way of looking at the law of identity)." ----------------- Well yes, this is exactly what have been arguing here, and I am glad that you at least see my point and are in agreement. However, than you go on and conclude: "So if the first life can’t be CAUSED (by prior life) IT MUST HAVE BEEN UNCAUSED." Well, no. An alternative solution is that first life was caused by something that was not itself alive. All you have to allow for is the possibility that a non-living entity or process could be classified as intelligent. On what grounds do you rule that out? fGfaded_Glory
August 12, 2011
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avoctionist, No, I am not trying to 'trap Barry'. He presented an argument, in good faith undoubtedly, and it struck me that there is an inherent flaw with the argument, so I opened a discussion about it, also in good faith. The point I am driving at is simple and I have made it numerous times now: I sincerely think that his argument falls in the same class of statements as the barber's paradox. I have explained my reasoning and nobody here has yet shown that it does not. I do believe that it is fairly straightforward to amend Barry's argument to escape the paradox, just like it is easy to amend the barber's paradox itself to avoid the logical pitfall. I have made two suggestions on how this can be done. It is up to Barry if he wants to take this on board or not. However, trying to make the problem go away by declaring the question 'what created first life' out of bounds is just as impotent as trying to make the barber's paradox problem go away by declaring the question 'who shaves the barber' out of bounds. This is the length and breadth of my argument. If others want to push it into other domains that is up to them. fGfaded_Glory
August 12, 2011
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Thanks TG. Perhaps you'll have a look at my post 77. Now, I would ask you, if the finite is apart from the infinite, from what or how did the finite get created? And have you any conception at all what an immaterial being would be "made of" so that it is not nothing, and so that it can influence matter?avocationist
August 11, 2011
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R7 @ 75 "Because of this self-referential nature, if the universe did existed in some form before the Big Bang without beginning or end, then it’s entirely possible that it is God, the first cause." This is pantheism. It's atheism with the term "Universe" instead of "God." It is impossible for a finite thing - the universe, to be infinite. See laws of identity, non-contradiction, and excluded middle. On the other hand, the First Cause, which must be uncaused, also must be an immaterial being. Has to be. So the infinite cannot be the finite so the infinite is apart from the finite so pantheism is nonsense. Literally.tgpeeler
August 11, 2011
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avocationist @ 76 "I thought, Ah, perhaps he/she is trying to trap Barry into admitting that he thinks the designer is God, but KF, at any rate, has admitted that." Of course he's admitted that. It's the ONLY logical explanation. Let's try a thought experiment here. Imagine a car in a parking lot. Imagine that it is running. Imagine that you walk up to me and say, who turned that car on? Imagine that I say no one did - it's always been running. You immediately know I'm full of it for these reasons. First law of thermodynamics - energy is neither created or destroyed (the universe is finite). Second law - energy gets used up and is no longer usable. The gas tank has a finite amount of fuel (first law). The gasoline in the gas tank will eventually be used up (second law). So if the car had been running for an infinite amount of time then it would have already run out of gas. But it is still running so it hasn't run out of gas so it hasn't been running for an infinite amount of time. Therefore, it's been running for a FINITE amount of time therefore SOMEBODY STARTED THE CAR. Now, substitute universe for car and the mass/energy (or whatever physicists call it) of the universe for gasoline and you'll get it.tgpeeler
August 11, 2011
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FG @ 65 "In fact it is the law of non-contradiction that is in play here. Something can not be first life, and not first life, at the same time." This is true. But here's how the logic works. There had to be a first life. No? Yes. If there were no first life there would be no life at all. But there is life, so there must have been first life. So far, so good. Nothing to see here folks, move right along. But here's the rub and here's where the infinite regress problem gets solved. I think I can safely say that every cell ever observed in all of human history came from another cell. In fact, although I am no biologist, not even close, I believe that is part of "cell theory." The biology version of quantum physics, maybe. So we understand that all cells that we have ever seen come from other cells. Another way to say this is that life comes from life. So what about the FIRST life? That's the 14.5 Trillion dollar question, isn't it? The first life CANNOT (read and think carefully here) be like all of the other life BECAUSE all of the other life came from (was caused by) prior life. But there is nothing prior to FIRST. That's what the word means (law of identity, which you evidently have some regard for since you cited the law of non-contradiction (LNC) which is just another way of looking at the law of identity). So if the first life can't be CAUSED (by prior life) IT MUST HAVE BEEN UNCAUSED. Law of non-contradiction and law of excluded middle (LEM) apply. Caused or uncaused. It can't be both (LNC) and it must be one or the other (LEM). Those are our choices. If something is uncaused, that means it must have always existed. IT MUST HAVE. There is no weasel room here. The first life, like the first cause, must be uncaused. Uncaused is another way of saying infinite. If something exists yet is uncaused then it MUST HAVE always existed. If it has always existed then we say that it is infinite. If it is infinite then we know that it is immaterial. Why? Because if something is material you can count it and that means it's finite. We are talking definitions here. Law of identity. (without which no rational thought is possible) So WE KNOW (because we can "do the math") that the First cause of life is uncaused, infinite, eternal, always existing, (take your pick) Life. See. Not so hard at all.tgpeeler
August 11, 2011
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Kairos, You have said that if the being is not logically impossible, it will be actual. Can you explain that? Scott @61, Re the noncontingent being: "Logically, though, two factors require it. First, there must be non-contingent cause. Otherwise any existence is a logical impossibility. Second, the cause is evidently intelligent." Why would a noncontingent being not also be uncaused? Doesn't 'cause' imply a time when it was not? If you call it self-caused, then how can an intelligence cause itself?avocationist
August 11, 2011
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rhampton - I must say, you seem to engage in magical thinking. You also left in the air the assertion that people designed dogs, which they most certainly did not. +++++++++++++++++ I admit at this point I'm a tad confused about just what FG is driving at. Isn't it so that we have more than just current life forms, but also good fossil evidence of the very first bacteria, and that they were sufficiently complex? So if FG wants to discuss first life ever, is he/she conceding the point as to life here but perhaps hoping for simpler life forms within the galaxy? I thought, Ah, perhaps he/she is trying to trap Barry into admitting that he thinks the designer is God, but KF, at any rate, has admitted that.avocationist
August 11, 2011
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kairosfocus, You can find better descriptions then what I'm about to offer, provided you do some investigation on your own. In the classical view, a given effect - say the burning of a match - would be said to be caused by the striking of it. In actuality, there's quite a lot that goes on in between (as you noted with chemical reactions), but the model works well enough to be useful. Likewise, it would be said that the boiling of a particular pot of tea in China had no practical influence in this cause-effect relationship. In the DeBroglie-Bohm model, however, the pot of tea and everything else in the universe is absolutely necessary in determining the outcome of the match being struck. Make no mistake, this is not a description of Chaos theory in that distant variables have a infinitesimally small but greater than 0 influence, but a description of the universe as an singular whole wherein every iota is equally and fundamentally critical in determining any and all outcomes. There is but only one universal wave function. Thus the universe is the only true observer (intelligent agent), the only true cause, and the only true effect, and we humans are no more individual, independent actors then the laws of physics or time or space. Because of this self-referential nature, if the universe did existed in some form before the Big Bang without beginning or end, then it's entirely possible that it is God, the first cause. Granted, this is not an orthodox religious view, but it is a logical inference.rhampton7
August 11, 2011
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RH7: The above is inadvertently all too revealing. Let's start with something basic: have you lit a match, half burned it, then tilted its head up yet? If so, tell me what happened, and tell me what that says about the factors, fuel, heat and oxidiser, as necessary factors for a fire that when jointly present will lead to or sustain the fire. Kindly show me a case of something that begins to be or may cease from being, that does not have a necessary causal factor that the absence or removal of it will block the beginning or continuation. Now you keep on bringing up quantum mechanics, but seem to be unable to distinguish a necessary causal factor from a sufficient causal factor, as in you have plainly not learned the lesson of the match. Again, on the crude level, no radium atom, no decay. No excitation of an atom nucleus, no gamma emission. No photons of sufficient energy, and no photo emission, etc etc. Nor am I speaking of a determinism. It is sufficient causal factors that WILL make an event happen, i.e they will be sufficient to determine that an outcome will result. SUFF CAUSE FACTORS => effect (IF SCF, THEN effect) Necessary causal factors by direct contrast must be present and if absent will BLOCK an event, they are precisely not deterministic. Effect => NECESS CAUSE FACTORS (UNLESS NCF, Then no effect.) Necessary factors are on the opposite side of the implication sign! Please, go do the match exercise. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
August 11, 2011
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If something begins or may cease, it is contingent and has necessary causal factors, period.
That's a supposition. Under the DeBroglie-Bohm model of Quantum Mechanics, classical determinism (the kind of cause and effect scenario you constantly refer to as self-evidently true) simply does not exist.rhampton7
August 11, 2011
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Avocationist, Never mind me. I get wrapped up in little details and miss the context.ScottAndrews
August 11, 2011
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Johmn Lennox is a living, breathing, reason why scientists should be forced to take a senoir-level class in philosophy in order to practice science.Upright BiPed
August 11, 2011
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F/N 2: Nothing just above means a real nothing, no space, time, matter, energy, potential, laws etc, no mind, nothing, nothing nothing. [When people try to pull a cosmos out of a quantum fluctuation, there has to be something there to fluctuate.]kairosfocus
August 11, 2011
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F/N: maybe I need to highlight what is required to defeat a contradiction. If claims P, Q, R, . . . are held to be in contradiction, on logic, that means there cannot be a possible -- non contradictory -- state of affairs on which P, Q, R, . . . can be simultaneously true. That is an extraordinarily stringent requirement. All that is required to defeat it is that there is a logically possible -- does not have ot be plausible to you -- state of affairs where the P AND Q and R . . . PLUS some E, a harmonising explanation, are possible. The obvious one here is that life on earth and the fine tuned cosmos are the product of an intelligent architect who is a purposeful, powerful, creating and necessary being. So, there is no contradiction. In addition, on inference to best explanation, which is what addresses plausibility, such a being is a serious candidate indeed. There is no contradiction in the notion of a contingent being, indeed we know many such up to and including our cosmos. there is no contradiction in the observation that such a being is dependent on one or more necessary causal factors. And, once we recognise the obvious fact that a necessary causal factor is just that, a causal factor, we have abundant empirical evidence that that which begins or may cease to exist has a cause. And no evidence to the contrary, claims about quantum phenomena notwithstanding. Next, there is no contradiction in the idea of a being that has no external necessary CAUSAL factors, though of course there may be logical relations. The truth in the expression, 2 + 3 = 5 is a case in point. This was always true and it will not cease from being true. That our observed cosmos is contingent and had a beginning usually estimated at 13.7 BYA these days, is a commonplace. Even through multiverse speculations, that points to a necessary being as the causal root of why there is something rather than nothing. And given the evidence of fine tuning, it is reasonable to argue that the relevant being is powerful, purposeful and creative, all of which point to a self-moved, ensouled being with a mind, a highly intelligent one. Such a cosmic architect and creator is a reasonable and -- save to those who are closed a priori or even militantly hostile to such possibilities -- plausible view, not an unreasonable one. In short, FG, you have inadvertently added to the force of the reason to believe in such a cosmic architect. GEM of TKI PS: Onlookers, observe this line of reasoning is independent of any scriptural or religious tradition, it is a philosophical argument. One that will gain further force once we trace the roots of our common understanding that we are indeed under moral obligations, i.e there must be an is sufficient to ground ought, e.g failing this, we have no grounds for rights, and our objections to evil become of no more weight than objections to say prunes, as C S Lewis was fond of saying.kairosfocus
August 11, 2011
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#60 It was.Upright BiPed
August 11, 2011
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FG: Why are you so insistent on going in circles in the teeth of easily accessible facts and reasoning? FACT NO 1: MODERN ID BEGAN WITH AN EXAMINATION OF THE ORIGIN OF LIFE ON EARTH, per TMLO, 1984. Second, Barry was directly addressing the origin of the only scientifically observed form of life on earth: metabolising cells with self replication facilities. That is where the observational evidence wall is. If you want to move the wall, provide observational evidence of other forms of biological life. Which, plainly, you cannot. Next, the first life argument has in it no logical contradiction whatsoever. The design argument on first cell based life -- per observations, is that the signs point to design. If you want to speculate on a prior form of life that did not have metabolism and self replication based on informational macromolecules, admit that you are indulging in a philosophical speculation absent observational evidence. Next, the notion that there is an infinite regress of root forms of life causing subsequent forms, or else there is a resort to non-living intelligence, is nonsense, and it has been repeatedly pointed out to you since last weekend. Just, you continually insist on ignoring it. Yes the ULTIMATE root of cell based life as we observe could not have been a cell based life form. Just as, the root of a contingent cosmos based in key part on atomic matter, is beyond such. But as was again outlined above, once the logic of cause is followed up and the roots of a fine tuned cosmos are properly analysed, there is an obvious answer: a necessary, purposeful, creative being. No infinite regress, and a root life that does not require a beginning. The perception of a contradiction is most likely driven by a priori materialism that refuses to entertain the possibility of such a necessary being [in a context that is philosophical! but usually not acknowledged as such], and certainly refuses to engage in serious discussion about it. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
August 11, 2011
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Avo: The inference that on the dFSCI in cell based life that exhibits metabolism and self replication on a von Neumann self replicator, points to design, does not even address the issue of the identity of that designer. So, we have an observational evidence wall in hand. As in, we are looking at the Galilean criterion for science: if the ideas are not currently subject to empirical observation you are not discussing science here. It is possible that we are the product of another race within our cosmos, as has been acknowledged form the very first ID technical book, TMLO. We do not have evidence to determine that specific identity of the designer question. But that does not undermine the force of inference to design of the living cell on its abundant signs of design. In the hands of ever so many what we are seeing is a red herring distraction. The question they have put on the table, in its various forms, is a PHILOSOPHICAL question, and is one that is amenable to the analysis of the logic of cause. All too much so, that is why there is an attempt to divert or to ignore. There is good reason to see that traversing a countable infinity in steps is a self-defeating option. So, the question is, what is the terminus for life. the answer to that lies down the road of first understanding necessary causal factors, a real challenge as the mistaken arguments that quantum phenomena are without cause, show. the simple half burned match exercise will teach much to those willing to be taught. Once that is understood, you will be able to see what a contingent being is, and why it is said that that which begins or may cease from being has a cause. Namely, it thus shows its dependence on external necessary causal factors. Such beings are by convenient label, contingent. Now, as the truth expressed as 2 + 3 = 5 exercise shows, there is at least one class of the other kind of being, those which are not begun or sustained by external causes, though they may be warranted on logical or demonstrational grounds. We thus come to necessary beings, beings that have no external causal dependence on necessary factors. A candidate to be this will thus be either impossible -- the entity cannot exist at all, or it will be actual. And, we have here the situation that we live in a cosmos that is evidently both contingent and fine tuned for the sort of C-chemistry cell based life we enjoy. [That is on empirical data our cosmos appears to be best explained as designed.] Even though a multiverse speculation, that points to a root cause in a necessary being. One that on the fine tuning evidence, is purposeful, powerful, kno3ledgeable and skilled enough to create a cosmos. That is a worldview level analysis on inference to best explanation. But that is also sufficient to show that the imagined objection that designed life would have to come form non living intelligence, falls flat. For there is a serious alternative to the imagined dilemma, that falls into neither trap as suggested. It even gives a locus for the eternality of true propositions: they are held eternally in the mind of the architect of the cosmos as just identified as a best explanation. Of course, all of this means that in a context of the weight of scientific evidence and onward worldviews considerations, theism is a viable worldview. That's the problem: that is in many circles today a most politically incorrect notion. But, be that political incorrectness as it may, such theism as worldview has this supreme advantage: it is in fact quite viable on the evidence and logic. As has been held by many great minds form Plato et al, to Newton et al and down to today. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
August 11, 2011
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Mung: When Barry speaks of living things, he is talking about biological life, on earth, and he is talking about biological life on earth that is currently alive. If that is in fact the case, then it makes absolutely no sense to speak of ‘first life.’ It seems that you want him to accept your evolutionary assumptions about the history and evolution of life, and he is under no obligation to do so. ------------ As I have said several times now, that is perfectly ok. I get it. Really. ID, in the form of Barry's argument, is agnostic about the origin of life on Earth, and even on the origin of life in general. I think it is a rather unexpected conclusion but I have no quarrel with it. Still, to emphasise once again, my objection to the argument is not one of infinite regress, just as the barber paradox is not one of infinite regress. I am not asking who designed the designer. I am asking what designed first life. Do you see the difference? I am asking this to highlight that Barry's argument blows up when applied to first life, as the result of a built-in logical contradiction. Exactly as the barber statement blows up when someone asks who shaves the barber. This has nothing to do with infinite regress, but everything with a built-in self-referential logical contradiction. These things are not the same. In fact it is the law of non-contradiction that is in play here. Something can not be first life, and not first life, at the same time. I think that you actually know this - why else would you stress that the argument should only be used on life on Earth that is currently known? fGfaded_Glory
August 11, 2011
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The actual cause, the thing that triggers the decay to occur at moment X and not Y. This is not known nor has it ever been observed. In fact, the logic from which many theoretical models of Quantum Mechanics are driven postulates there is no cause.
In fact, if there is a local cause, Quantum theory is wrong. And quantum theory is the most successful theory ever, in terms of predicting results. None of its predictions have ever been incorrect, regardless of how fine the measurement.Petrushka
August 11, 2011
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MI: great job. SA: the problem with infinite regresses as I have pointed out for several days now is that a countable infinity of cardinality Aleph null, is not traversible step by step. You can no more count down from minus infinity to zero than you can count up from zero to positive infinity. RH7: Your repeat problem is refusal to recognise the significance of necessary causal factors. If something begins or may cease, it is contingent and has necessary causal factors, period. We may be unable to identify the sufficient factors for a particular atom of radium to decay, but we know that if there is no radium atom, that decay is not going to happen. We know that if there is not an unfavourable particle balance in the nucleus, alpha emission will not happen, and ditto for beta or K-capture etc. And an atomic nucleus has to be in an excited state for gamma emission to restore it to a lower energy state. Similarly, when Planck studied cavity radiation, he discovered that the best explanation for the spectrum was that energy had to come off in h*f lumps, which five years later fitted in with the Einstein explanation that atoms had to absorb in lumps to emit photoelectrons. Below the right frequency, no emission regardless of intensity, above it, emission regardless of how weak the light. Similarly, the Pauli exclusion principle for fermions like electrons with spin half leads to the sort of pattern of orbitals we see in atoms, and for that matter in how semiconductors behave -- I have Fermi level in mind -- etc. And so on and so forth. What is happening is that there is a confusion where cause is being mistaken for only meaning sufficient cause. And so, can we come back from this red herring sidetrack too? GEM of TKIkairosfocus
August 11, 2011
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Kairosfocus and Scott, I believe you have misunderstood me. I am a firm believer in intelligent design. "It’s not a bad question. It’s just irrelevant. If the evidence points to intelligent design, then it just does." But you said I should not rule out that we were designed by beings like ourselves, to which FG makes a valid objection. Aliens like us just moves the regress back. I hope I'm not muddying the waters here, because I am not quibbling with the design inference. "Your point seems to be that if the evidence leads us to a conclusion and the conclusion leads to more unanswered questions, then we should scrap the evidence and the conclusions. " Nah, I never said such a thing. "Then why repackage the infinite regression argument as something else? And why apply it selectively?" I am not sure how I have done that. I am merely responding to what I see as a valid point of FG. Rhampton- "However, it would be equally presumptuous to claim there is only one divine designer" Well, I can see a possibility of only one divine being. Not sure what you mean by divine? "the (divine) creation of the first life form does not eliminate the possibility that multiple, mortal designers of unknown origin subsequently modified what was available on Earth." Well no, not at all, but they would need to be more than one celled beings themselves!avocationist
August 11, 2011
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kairosfocus, You have noted that matches can undergo spontaneously combustion if there is some root cause. I agree - and this is where radioactive decay differs. The instability of the atom is not a cause but a state of potential, like an unlit match. The actual cause, the thing that triggers the decay to occur at moment X and not Y. This is not known nor has it ever been observed. In fact, the logic from which many theoretical models of Quantum Mechanics are driven postulates there is no cause. So you can not claim with certainty, using either logic or scientific data, that causation is a universal necessity.rhampton7
August 11, 2011
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