Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

An Exchange With FG, Part 2

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I come back to FG, because I think he is seriously trying to engage with ID, and I am very pleased to report that he is making significant progress.

In my post “Who Designed the Designer Argument Demolished in Three Easy Steps”  I demonstrated that the infinite regress argument has no real force by giving what FG called a “concrete example” of how a design inference can be valid in the complete absence of any knowledge of who the designer was or where he/she came from.

FG writes. “When applied to a single concrete example like the one you gave, your inference could be valid . . .”

Wonderful!

FG then slips when he says: “The infinite regress problem is real and does defeat ID the moment your argument is invoked to explain first life.”

Not so. ID posits the following: CSI and IC have never been directly observed to have arisen though chance or mechanical necessity or a combination of the two. Conversely, CSI and IC are routinely observed to have been produced by intelligent agents. Moreover, intelligent agents leave behind indicia of their acts that can be objectively discerned. Therefore, using abductive reasoning, the best explanation for CSI and IC is “act of intelligent agent.”

How does this apply to first life? (By “first life” I presume FG means “first life on earth.”) Well, we cannot directly examine first life to determine whether it exhibited CSI and IC. We can only observe existing life, and when we do we find that even the most simple extant life forms are staggeringly complex. From this observation we infer that the first life on earth also exhibited CSI and IC. (To be sure, some would attempt to deny that first life is complex, but given the unanimous verdict to the contrary of all of our observations simple logic suggests that the burden is on those who make such a suggestion to demonstrate its plausibility.)

We cannot know for certain whether first life exhibited CSI and IC. ID merely says that if it did, the best explanation for the existence of the CSI and IC in first life is best explained by “act of intelligent agent.”

This is where FG goes off the rails. He/she asks “But who designed first life? By definition first life could not have been designed by a living being.” The answer is, as I have said many times before, ID does not examine the question “What is the source of all design?” ID examines the question “Is this particular thing designed?” And it says of the particular thing “first life on earth” that if it exhibited CSI and IC the best explanation for the existence of that CSI and IC is “act of intelligent agent.” A physicist (when he is doing physics) does not ask, “Why is there something instead of nothing?” Similarly, an ID proponent (when he is doing science) does not ask, “What is the ultimate source of all CSI and IC?”

Why is this? Because questions like “Why is there something instead of nothing?” and “What is the ultimate source of all CSI and IC?” are simply not subject to scientific investigation. This does not mean that grand metaphysical or philosophical questions like these are uninteresting. They are very interesting (even vitally important). Nevertheless, the answer to these questions cannot be investigated by scientific means.

Wittgenstein famously wrote: “Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent.” As a scientist a physicist cannot speak to the question “Why is there something instead of nothing?” Therefore, he must remain silent on that question. As a scientist an ID proponent cannot speak to the question “What is the ultimate source of all CSI and IC?” Therefore, he must remain silent on that question.

Therefore, to FG I say, many ID proponents have a view of the source of all CSI and IC. But those views are of the “metaphysical, philosophical and religious” sort. They are not scientific views and for that reason are not subject to scientific investigation. However, with respect to any particular, as you say, “concrete example” of CSI and IC, ID proponents argue that the best explanation for its existence is “act of intelligent agent.”

Comments
KF, I'm sold on a non-contingent being, mainly for reasons outside of science and perhaps not strictly logical. Logically, though, two factors require it. First, there must be non-contingent cause. Otherwise any existence is a logical impossibility. Second, the cause is evidently intelligent. I don't think that FG was missing the point, but perhaps was trying make infinite regression take sides, which it doesn't. If you use IR specifically with regard to life, in the sense that only life begets life, it might seem possible to force a "natural" beginning, even if it's numerous regressions in the past. But that fails because it still leads to the same question - what caused the natural cause. Even if one rejects a non-contingent being, IR can't be used to refute one side of the argument without also refuting the other.ScottAndrews
August 11, 2011
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Thanks KF. Indeed, I haphazardly typed the thing. I thought it worth the effort.material.infantacy
August 11, 2011
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MI: Well done. Did you do the transcript yourself? Gkairosfocus
August 11, 2011
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RH7: Logic, FYI, is a criterion of science. For instance ti is at the foundation of mathematics. What is tested is not the LOGIC but the underlying postulates or axioms in a given model, or even claimed facts. And notice, you have tried to change the subject. The issue is to have a burning match, and to allow it to half-burn, then tip it up. This removes the fuel effectively and the fire goes out. This illustrates how a necessary causal factor operates. Of course we know -- did you look at the second illustration in the linked article here? -- that the fire triangle gives us the sufficient cluster of necessary factors, you do not need to inform us of that. Now, you go on to propose is spontaneous combustion as a falsification of the requirement for oxidiser, heat and fuel [inclusive of the sustaining chain reaction]. Sorry, spontaneous combustions happen where we MEET the relevant conditions -- e.g. oily rags get hot enough to move from warming up to bursting into flames -- and matches are designed so that hey do not spontaneously ignite under the normal circumstances that are implied in the matches exercise. Since on experience at UD we need to cut off red herring chases at outset, here is Wiki on the causes -- yup -- of spontaneous combustion:
Cause and ignition A substance with a relatively low ignition temperature begins to release heat, which may occur in several ways, such as oxidation or fermentation. The heat is unable to escape, and the temperature of the material rises The temperature of the material rises above its ignition point Combustion begins if a sufficiently strong oxidizer, such as oxygen, is present. [ --> Notice how fuel, heat and oxidiser are all present . . . each is necessary and the three together are sufficient] [edit] Pyrophoric substances Main article: Pyrophoricity The element sodium is an example of a pyrophoric material which can undergo a kind of spontaneous (and potentially very violent) explosion when exposed to oxygen, water, or moisture in the air. Pyrophoric substances have an autoignition temperature below room temperature and often require mere contact with air or water in order to spontaneously ignite. [--> they can pull the Oxy out of the water to burn] A characteristic of pyrophoric materials is also their large specific surface of contact with air. Raney nickel is pyrophoric because of the very fine size of its particles. Rieke metals are even more dangerous . . .
In short, you have plainly tried to head off on a tangent after a red herring. Yes, if we were in another world where the fire triangle was not a sufficient cluster of necessary conditions for a fire, fires would not work the way they do in our world, but the point still obtains that things that begin or may end have necessary causal factors. As we saw for spontaneous combustion. So, can wee now come back on track please? What is crucial for the present analysis is to understand that absent one or more necessary causal factors and an effect will not begin, or if a going concern, it will cease. So, we can understand contingency. From contingency, we can move on to necessity of being. Thence we can look at the existence of a cosmos that is credibly contingent and fine-tuned for C-chemistry, cell based life. In that context, we can address the implications of an observed contingent and fine tuned world, in terms of a reasonable candidate to be the underlying necessary being, even through a multiverse speculation. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
August 11, 2011
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faded_Glory:
I think I need to be clear here: I am using ‘life’ in exactly the same way Barry uses the expression ‘living things’.
I don't think you are, but we can let Barry speak to that. When Barry speaks of living things, he is talking about biological life, on earth, and he is talking about biological life on earth that is currently alive. If that is in fact the case, then it makes absolutely no sense to speak of 'first life.' It seems that you want him to accept your evolutionary assumptions about the history and evolution of life, and he is under no obligation to do so. Since there is no regress in his argument, it follows that there is no infinite regress. Barry:
We can only observe existing life, and when we do we find that even the most simple extant life forms are staggeringly complex.
Besides which, if we are going to regress each form of life back to some prior form, there is absolutely no reason to think that each prior form was more complex nor that it was the designer of each subsequent form.Mung
August 11, 2011
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John Lennox on who created the creator. [transcribed from http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=222ihLZlujQ, beginning at 01:07:00] A Matter of Gravity: God, the Universe and Stephen Hawking - the 2010 Margaret Harris Lecture on Religion (Dundee University). Professor John Lennox investigates Steven Hawking's metaphysical claims in his latest book "The Grand Design". “...Richard Dawkins’ knock-down argument in the book The God Delusion: …’if you claim that God created the universe, well, first of all, that’s no explanation at all, because by definition God is more complex than the universe you’re explaining; secondly, if you claim that God created the universe, then you have to logically ask who created God, and who created the god that created the god that created the god that created..., and so on’. Sounds brilliant, doesn’t it? I think it’s very silly ladies and gentlemen. Let me analyze it briefly. ‘God is no explanation at that ultimate level because he’s more complex than what you’re explaining.’ So I pick up a book, and it’s called The God Delusion. It’s 400 pages long, it’s very complex. But then I discover that it emanates from the brain of one Richard Dawkins, which is infinitely more complex -- at least I think he believes that -- than the book itself. So therefore by definition that is no explanation since the explanation is more complicated than the thing you’re explaining. There’s something wrong with that, isn’t there? And Brian Davies, fellow of the Royal Society, who’s just a brilliant mathematician, has just written a book on beliefs in science. And he points out the elementary fact that explanations are often very much more complex than the thing you’re explaining, and he imagines and attempt to explain a paper clip. Very simple isn’t it? But if you’re going to explain it completely you have to go into steel making, paper, everything. You see, we’ve been bamboozled into thinking that explanations must inevitably be reductionist from the complex to the simple. Now that is a very important methodology in science, that kind of methodological reductionism; but ontological reductionism will not do, because in many areas our explanation is more complex. And that is the fun of it. Incidentally, isn’t it odd -- let me leave you with this little thing -- isn’t it odd.... You see...is there a beach at Dundee? I haven’t determined that yet...there is a beach. Well you go down to the beach in Dundee and you see a few letters of your name in the sand, and you immediately refer upwards to intelligent causation, don’t you. And then you go into the laboratory...and there’s a special laboratory at Oxford that hasn’t been invented yet... and it’s got a magic stereoscopic microscope in it; and through it you see a double helix uncoiling and spitting off letters, CGATTCGAATCG, three-and-a-half billion of them in exactly the right order, like a computer program, and you ask, well, what’s the ultimate reason for that? Chance and necessity? What, chance and the laws of nature, yes? It strikes me, ladies and gentlemen, there’s something odd going on. How is it that three letters of our name in a language spell intelligence, and three point five billion letters, in a code, spell simply chance and necessity? Now I’m not denying that chance and necessity do a great deal, that’s not the point; it’s the question of what does the text say? But I haven’t answered the question, here it comes. Who created God? Well if you ask the question, who created God, you’re assuming that God was created, aren’t you, by definition. But what if God wasn’t created? Then the question falls. You see, hidden in the question is the assumption. If I suddenly find my wallet is gone this evening after I finish speaking, and I say to you: who stole my wallet? Well the assumption is that somebody stole it, and I might have just forgotten it -- and my wife would tell me that’s the most likely explanation. In other words, when you ask, who created God, you’ve immediately closed down the range of possible explanations in terms of a created God. If Richard Dawkins had written a book called, The Created God’s Delusion, I suspect it wouldn’t have sold many copies; because we don’t need him or anyone else to tell us that created gods are a delusion. Ladies and gentlemen, the central claim of Christianity is that God already existed; the Word already was, it wasn’t created. The universe was created. Ah, but then, it’s a wicked thing in me; but then I’m Irish, albeit of Scottish descent ladies and gentlemen. But I did turn the question around on Richard Dawkins. I said, that question works both ways, Richard. You believe it’s legitimate to ask, who created the creator. OK, let’s try. You believe the universe created you. Who created your creator? I’m still waiting for an answer. Thank you, ladies and gentlemen.“material.infantacy
August 11, 2011
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Logic can be tested with Science. Suppose you had carefully laid out 10 matches on an inflammable surface, and then isolated them from outside influence. Without some initiating cause, we would expect those 10 matches to stay unlit. But suppose that when we actually observed the matches, half of them underwent spontaneously combustion throughout the course of 24 hours. Repeating the experiment does not change the result, nor does changing the experimenters or the laboratory. Now if you're an open minded scientist and/or logician, at this point you would have leave open the possibility that your initial premise may be wrong -- wouldn't be the first time that logic was falsified by data.rhampton7
August 11, 2011
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F/N: RH7, why not do the half burned match exercise and report to us on the implications of the demonstrated reality of necessary causal factors?kairosfocus
August 11, 2011
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RH7: Secondly, you are wrong on radioactivity decay specifically, and wrong in a way that depends on a logical error. Y'see, there are two main types of causal factors of relevant interst, necessary ones and sufficient ones. Absent a necessary causal factor and something will not begin, or will cease. Absent a sufficient cluster of factors -- which must include all necessary ones -- and something WILL happen. What happens with RA decay is that we do know some necessary factors, but we do not know a sufficient one beyond once we have a population of unstable atoms, some will decay according to a law. But, there are no ends of necessary factors involved, e.g. so simple a one as the need to have the unstable atoms present, and the space in which they exist, with applicable laws of physics. A truly a-causal event would happen from nowhere or anywhere anytime for no reason and without any constraints. A world like that would be a chaos, not a cosmos. So, let us put this old saw about how quantum events do not have causes, to sleep. We do not know the sufficient conditions that make a particular quantum event happen here, now this way rather than that, but we do know necessary factors. An event constrained in that way is NOT a-causal. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
August 11, 2011
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RH7: You are not dealing with SCIENCE here but with LOGIC, a precondition for science. You have made a category error. The appeal to science in this context is typically symptomatic of being caught up in scientism -- the notion that science [especially as redefined in positivistic, materialistic terms] swallows up knowledge and rationality, which is a serious error. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
August 11, 2011
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Now, what would happen if a being had no dependence on external necessary causal factors? ANS: It would not have a beginning nor could it cease from being.
As best as Science can determine (most) radioactive decays "happen with no visible external provocation." So we can't say with certainty causal necessity is universally true. Tim Mooney explains: The "real" cause of radioactive decay has two meanings. The first is a statistical definition. If a light nucleus has too many neutrons compared to the number of protons in the nucleus, the nucleus will be radioactive. What constitutes "too many" depends upon the element. So for example 3H is radioactive and so is 14C. For heavy nucleii if there are "not enough" neutrons, that isotope will be radioactive. Thus 235U is much more radioactive than 238U. The second definition of the "actual cause" means if I sit and look at a single nucleus, will there be any indication that it is "about to decay" the answer is no one knows at least at the present time. Radioactive decay appears to be a statistical event.rhampton7
August 11, 2011
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Scott: What FG is plainly studiously ducking is the issue of contingent vs necessary beings. (Notice how, since the weekend I have been challenging FG to do the match exercise, to no effect.) Let's go in steps: 1: FG is ostensibly interested in the origin of the first life, per just above, and poses the claimed dilemma of infinite regress or life from non-living intelligence, even latterly posing Russell's Barber in the village paradox. 2: The dilemma is a false one. there is a serious and well warranted alternative that is being studiously ignored and on the lame excuse that FG finds what I have written hard to follow. (Note, earlier in the week I tested it on a carpenter, no problem.) 3: Start with a match, and strike it then half burn it, and tilt up the head, watching it gutter down and go out. 4: You just saw how a contingent being -- here a flame -- depends on the presence of one or more external necessary causal factors. So, absent that factor, it cannot begin, or ceases. THAT WHICH HAS A BEGINNING OR MAY CEASE HAS A CAUSE. 5: Now, what would happen if a being had no dependence on external necessary causal factors? ANS: It would not have a beginning nor could it cease from being. 6: For instance consider the truth in the expression 2 + 3 = 5. Can you propose a possible time or place where this would not be so? [Note: nothing, proper, is neither a time nor a place nor an existence. A vacuum is a place and it has measurable properties.] 7: This truth is so, it is necessarily so, and will always be so. In short we see here an example of a necessary being. This is not just an airy fairy idea. 8: Now, if we look at our observed cosmos it had a beginning per scientific observational evidence, i.e it is contingent. It is also evidently fine tuned for C-chemistry, cell based life. 9: The former of these points to a root cause that is a necessary being, that grounds the existence of our cosmos. 10: the latter is best explained on that being having purpose, power, skill and knowledge to create a cosmos. 10: thus, the alternative that FG is refusing to see is that the observed cosmos comes from a necessary being, with purpose, knowledge and power to create a cosmos such as we inhabit. 11: Such a necessary being would be in Plato's words, self-moved, and ensouled. It would be living. Also, as a necessary being, it would be without external causal dependence and so would be without beginning or end. 12: Now, an odd property of such a necessary being is that if a candidate to be that sort of being is not self-contradictory and thus impossible, it will be actual. (And indeed, the usual suggestion is that the sort of true propositions given above reside in the mind of that being who is also the architect of the observed cosmos.) _________ So, plainly here is no need to resort to an infinite regress, nor to something that is non-living in order to explain the origin of biological, C-chemistry based life. The dilemma collapses. But, if one is insistent one can pretend that the issue has not been answered. Similarly, one can pretend that the whole issue is not tangential to and distractive from the key issue: if obse4rved object X, shows signs S that reliably point to design as cause then one is warranted it infer that X is designed, whether or no object Y, a candidate designer was designed in turn. FOR INSTANCE, THE COMPUTER YOU ARE LOOKING AT THIS ON IS DESIGNED. IT SHOWS MANY SIGNS OF THAT. THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH DEBATES AS TO WHETHER THE CREATORS OF COMPUTERS, HUMANS, WERE DESIGNED IN TURN. The whole "who designed the designer" argument in its various mutant forms, is a red herring fallacy. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
August 11, 2011
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On second thought, that's one sad, lame good deed.ScottAndrews
August 11, 2011
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In the OP Barry said, "By “first life” I presume FG means “first life on earth.” From that standpoint there's no contradiction. If, on the other hand, we say that the absolute first life required life to create it then the "logical incoherence" comes in. That would mean that first is not first. Am I doing my good deed for the day if I point out that perhaps there was nothing to debate?ScottAndrews
August 11, 2011
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Scott, That is fine, if you say you don't think Barry's argument should be used on things we only imagine, but don't have actually available for investigation, I am all for that. I just think then that this should be made clear in the way the argument is formulated. It might then also be a good idea to include in the sidebar summary of ID that it is agnostic about the origin of first life on Earth because we can't directly investigate it. Seems perfectly reasonable to me. fGfaded_Glory
August 11, 2011
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I think I need to be clear here: I am using 'life' in exactly the same way Barry uses the expression 'living things'. It goes without saying that we should stick with the same understanding of the word throughout the argument. We don't want to subtly change the meaning halfway through, wouldn't we? fGfaded_Glory
August 11, 2011
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fg, Note that when I say ‘first life’ I mean exactly that – not ‘first life on Earth’ but first life anywhere. First really means First. I took it as meaning 'first life on Earth.' I didn't think I was offering an alternative. That's why I don't see a contradiction. How can science ask what caused X without first knowing what X is? It's still another take on infinite regression. If every cause requires a cause, how can there even be a 'first' cause, intelligent or otherwise? We can't escape that question regardless of which cause we go with.ScottAndrews
August 11, 2011
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F/N: Onlookers, observe the artful use of "first life" by FG. If by that FG means first cell based, genetically controlled biological life on earth, the evidence we see from its presumptive descendants -- digitally coded, functionally specific, complex information with algorithms and algorithm executing machines points to design. That is the observational wall. Beyond that wall one is doing worldviews analysis not science, and on that side the issues in the above linked are inescapably on the table. Just, FG refuses to address them, probably because they point where FG would not go.kairosfocus
August 11, 2011
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Why do you fault ID for not answering a question it never asks?
Isn't ID about inference? This is what Stephen Meyer said in an interview with Ben Wattenberg: For us the inference to design is an inference. And it's a justified inference because of what we know about the cause and effect structure of the world. Namely that it always takes an intelligence to produce information. And we find the information in the cell therefore we think it's the best explanation of that evidence that intelligence played a role. But given that that's a scientific conclusion based on an analysis of data, you have to remain open to the evidence changing or different interpretations. So if I understand faded_Glory corectly, and If ID is predicated on what we know about causation, then it would seem to me fair to follow the inferences as far as causation will allow, which leaves us at the the Barber's chair.rhampton7
August 11, 2011
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FG: 1: Barry is strictly correct. 2: You have had your answer to your question since last weekend but refuse to attend to it. 3: Mung's challenge to define what you mean by "life" and by extension why you seem to wish to dismiss the view that is expressed in phrases like "The Living God" is also relevant. So, let's ask a very simple one in reply: Have you done the match exercise yet? If not, why not? If so, what is your response to the discussion here? And, why have you been acting as though the answer has not been accessible to you all along? In short, your behaviour -- after several days -- is looking extraordinarily like a game driven by self justification in closed-mindedness and talking points pushing, on at least three fronts. I think you have some fairly serious explaining to do. And remember, a carpenter had no problems following the basic issues raised in the linked. Failing that, the astute onlooker can see for him or her self that you are so far studiously evading the key issues on the merits while pushing talking points in a circle. G'day GEM of TKIkairosfocus
August 11, 2011
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The barber paradox doesn't just vanish when someone declares the question 'who shaves the barber' out of bounds. The paradox is there, the sentence is meaningless, with or without the question being asked explicitly. Don't you agree? fGfaded_Glory
August 11, 2011
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Barry, I don't ask for the ultimate source of all design, I ask for the source of first life, trying to apply your argument. If you don't want it applied to first life, just say so and we have no quarrel. Otherwise, my objection stands. fGfaded_Glory
August 11, 2011
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Faded Glory, seriously, which part of "ID does not ask what is the ultimate source of all design" do you not understand? Why do you fault ID for not answering a question it never asks? I've explained over and over and as simply as I can. Yet you refuse to accept it. I can't help you.Barry Arrington
August 11, 2011
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Barry, Here is my response to your OP directed at me. Before I start, I want to thank you for keeping our conversation on topic and free from the type of cheap personal digs I see all too often around here. I appreciate that and I will do my best to respond in kind. Before I give my response, let me restate your argument here for ease of reference. ------------------------- Barry said: Question to be investigated: What is the origin of complex specified information (CSI) and irreducibly complex (IC) mechanisms seen in even the simplest living things? Hypothesis: CSI and IC have never been directly observed to have arisen though chance or mechanical necessity or a combination of the two. Conversely, CSI and IC are routinely observed to have been produced by intelligent agents. Moreover, intelligent agents leave behind indicia of their acts that can be objectively discerned. Therefore, using abductive reasoning, the best explanation for CSI and IC is “act of intelligent agent.” --------------------------------- Now my response. Have you heard of the barber’s paradox? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barber_paradox Basically, the barber paradox is a seemingly logical statement that, upon closer inspection, proves to be logically impossible. My contention is that your argument is a similar paradox, unless you put certain limits on its applicability (which I don’t think you do) or unless you allow for the existence of a particular class of entities (intelligent agents that are not alive) which I suspect you also don’t do – but please correct me if I have that wrong, because in that case my objection will melt away. Here is the barber paradox: “The barber shaves all and only those men in town who do not shave themselves.” At first sight there is nothing wrong with this statement, until one asks the question: “Who shaves the barber?” The problem now is that the choice of answers is limited to: - he shaves himself (but that contradicts the statement that he only shaves men who don’t shave themselves) - the barber shaves him (but that is himself, so again it contradicts the statement). This shows that what at first sight is perfectly reasonable statement suffers from a fatal flaw, and as a consequence the statement is not one that relates to reality. It is mere words, strung together, without actual meaning. There are ways to circumvent this problem (a bit like I have suggested way to circumvent a similar logical bust in your argument), but they need to be specified separately and explicitly. Some examples: - the barber is a woman - the barber isn’t from this town and there may well be others. However, in its general form as presented above, the statement is logically incoherent and literally meaningless. Note that, just as in the case of your argument, there is no problem if someone asks the question on specific examples, such as: Who shaves Mr. Smith who lives two streets away from the barber? In particular cases like this, the statement is coherent and will produce a sensible answer. It is only when applied to the barber himself that it fails, and is exposed as a logical impossibility. This is just like your example of Jerry Coyne’s organisms, which indeed don’t pose a logical problem for your argument. However, the moment your argument fails is when someone asks the question: who or what designed first life? ----------------- So how does this barber compare to your argument? You say first that CSI and IC are observed in even the simplest of living things. If we assume that first life is one of those simplest of living things, it will contain CSI and IC. (Note: this is a junction where you could still choose to jump off the runaway argument by stating that it should not be applied to first life. Scott Andrews offered this exit strategy and it is valid. You, however, explicitly say that you want it to be applied to first life here: --------------- Barry said: “Well, we cannot directly examine first life to determine whether it exhibited CSI and IC. We can only observe existing life, and when we do we find that even the most simple extant life forms are staggeringly complex. From this observation we infer that the first life on earth also exhibited CSI and IC.” ------------- So you do indeed want it to be applied to first life. Note that when I say ‘first life’ I mean exactly that – not ‘first life on Earth’ but first life anywhere. First really means First. According to your argument, this first life has to be generated by an intelligent agent. Here is the second junction where you could still jump off the runaway argument: if you allow for intelligent agents that are not alive, it is possible that first life was generated by intelligent agent(s) that were not alive. I don’t think you allow for this possibility, so let me proceed on that assumption. If you do allow for it, please say so and my objection to your argument will vanish. Assuming that an intelligent agent has to be alive, your argument now boils down to saying that “first life was generated by something alive.” Hey Presto – this is logically incoherent (anyone disputes this? really?). It is exactly like: the barber shaves himself but doesn’t shave himself but shaves himself but doesn’t…….etc, etc. At this point your argument flies off the rails and is just words strung together, meaningless. ---------- I hope it is now clear that I do not ask the question: who designed the designer? I ask the question: who or what designed first life? And your argument goes POP at that point. You cannot apply it to first life without it becoming logically incoherent, and as a result, meaningless. Unless you allow for intelligent agents that are not alive. fGfaded_Glory
August 11, 2011
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kairosfocus, avocationist, Yes, it is presumptuous to claim with certainty that there was only one designer, or two, or three... And no, this does not rule out the possibility of a divine designer. However, it would be equally presumptuous to claim there is only one divine designer (even within the Christian context - more on that if you want to entertain a side topic). That we humans have used what was available to design dog breeds does not eliminate the possibility that God, for example, designed the universe. Likewise, the creation of the first life form does not eliminate the possibility that multiple, mortal designers of unknown origin subsequently modified what was available on Earth.rhampton7
August 11, 2011
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Avocationist, Well, if biological life with its complexities requires a designer, then how is the life form like ours to come about, without design, and then design more life like ours, which requires design? It's not a bad question. It's just irrelevant. If the evidence points to intelligent design, then it just does. Your point seems to be that if the evidence leads us to a conclusion and the conclusion leads to more unanswered questions, then we should scrap the evidence and the conclusions. ID is often called a "science stopper." What you're describing is a science stopper in the truest sense. If anything leads to unanswered questions, stop looking. As far as infinite regression, it is a logic problem that leads the mind to an inescapable but mind boggling conclusion – that there is something that must be really different and outside of time, cause, and effect. Then why repackage the infinite regression argument as something else? And why apply it selectively?ScottAndrews
August 11, 2011
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Many posts later and we're still waiting for fg's definition of life and first life and an explanation of why, under those definitions, "first life" even requires a cause, much less an intelligent cause. Still waiting.Mung
August 11, 2011
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Avo: All of this about one or more designers is tangential, red herring and strawman relative tot he essential point. The scientific inference to design is on causal factor, not on identity of designers. We empirically know that design is real and that it often leaves characteristic empirical signs, that are tested and reliable. For a scientific project that is enough. Under certain conditions, we may be able to identify candidate designers, through a sort of extension to detective, forensic techniques or historical techniques. Sometimes, as with Stonehenge, we cannot. But that does not mean that this was not designed nor that we cannot tell that from CSI and IC. It is a commonplace in a digital age, that digital, functionally specific info -- especially coded info, of sufficient complexity, is a reliable sign of design. Yet, we have seen here in recent days how a 196 ASCII character, Engligh text copyright announcement would be rejected as a sign of design by some objectors. That tells us all we need to know, that for some who we deal with, NO amount of evidence would ever open their minds to see that design as causal process can be properly and reliably inferred on signs. Sadly, their minds -- at least for now -- are closed on the subject. Perhaps the shock of recognising that, may lead to a rethink. But, when it comes to designers, the truth is that familiarity with mindedness has led us to contempt. Mind is an astonishing mystery, one that easily rises above materialistic explanation. the study of contingent being and its dependence on necessary, external causal factors will son lead to realising that there is a logically possible class of beings without such external dependence, which class would at once be eternal, with no beginning and no end. The nature of the propositional truth in expressions like 2 + 3 = 5, shows that such logical possibilities can be actualised. And, when we look at our observed, material cosmos, we begin to see that it is a contingent being, and so points beyond itself to a necessary being as its source. Multiply that by its fine tuning for C-chemistry, cell based biological life and we see that an excellent candidate for the root necessary being for the cosmos, is purposeful, powerful and intelligent. There is good reason for seeing such a being as a living being, even though not a biological cell based being. This may be shocking for materialists but this is much like the story of the mountain climber who after arduous labours mounts the final ledge only to see a welcoming party. GEM of TKI PS: And both life on earth and the physics of the cosmos show a powerful unity of being that points to unity in the root source. Though of course it is entirely possible on the design inference that we are the direct product of an advanced race that ran or is running a project in our solar system.kairosfocus
August 11, 2011
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Scott Andrews, "Why couldn’t life on earth have been designed by others of a similar form? It sounds unlikely to me too, but that’s hardly a basis for ruling it out or for imagining a paradox where one doesn’t exist." Well, if biological life with its complexities requires a designer, then how is the life form like ours to come about, without design, and then design more life like ours, which requires design? It has to be something different. "What if we just don’t know what type of life designed this life? Unknowns are okay." Yes, they are and I myself am quite puzzled about how life forms got here. I haven't got a favorite theory. As far as infinite regression, it is a logic problem that leads the mind to an inescapable but mind boggling conclusion - that there is something that must be really different and outside of time, cause, and effect.avocationist
August 11, 2011
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I went back over the thread and realized I never said "disembodied." I said an entity that is not embodied. Not the same. Rhampton @23, "1. It would be scientifically presumptuous to state that there was only one designer to begin life on Earth." I think it is presumptuous to know whether it is presumptuous! It could go either way as far as I'm concerned. With Denton's view it could be one designer. If life forms were really designed and not frontloaded, I tend to think there were many designers. In other words, I don't think God did it, I think it would be a delegated task. "2. Stephen Meyer also recognizes additional acts of Intelligent Design billions of years after the appearance of life. It would be scientifically presumptuous to state that the two events are attributable to the same designer(s)." Why? You are ruling out a divine designer. So if we are a long term project by extraterrestrials millions of years ahead of us in development, but who have meat bodies like ourselves, then how could life get started? We are back to FG's point, that first life could not have been started by a biological life form. And by the way, humans did not design dogs! We brought out and accentuated and suppresed various characteristics which were within their genome by selective breeding, but that really has nothing to do with the kind of problems intelligent design deals with.avocationist
August 11, 2011
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