Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

An Instructive Discussion, Led by Alan Fox, at The Skeptical Zone

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Over at The Skeptical Zone, there has been an amusing discussion. It can be found under the column “The Reality of Intelligent Design!” by Alan Fox. I want to respond to this discussion, as I believe it is instructive concerning the state of mind over at TSZ.  I am sure that Alan will again find my comments here “a bit wordy,” but hopefully he will not be able to say that they are “grumpy.” 🙂

Let’s start with the column itself. Alan Fox is one of those (relatively few) Skeptical Zone writers whose tone is actually merely skeptical, as opposed to polemical. However, some of his comments here leave something to be desired.

Alan writes: “I’ve seen no genuine effort to convert the claim that ID has some scientific merit into reality.”

Really? Has Alan not read the peer-reviewed online journal BioComplexity, which publishes several articles per year, and has done so for several years now? Has Alan not read the latest book by Stephen Meyer, which has garnered praise from a number of scientists, including some not previously associated with ID? (Heck, even geneticist Darrel Falk, arch-foe of ID, has on BioLogos praised Meyer for his grasp of many aspects of the science he has written about, and has admitted that some of Meyer’s criticisms of current evolutionary theory are cogent.) Has Alan not read Jonathan Wells’s book on junk DNA, which documents the rise of the “junk DNA” view, and the increasing difficulty in maintaining that view, with reference to several hundred technical articles in the peer-reviewed literature? Is he not aware that ID proponents said, long before Wells’s book, the ENCODE results, etc., that “junk DNA” was a presumptuous inference and that over time more and more of the DNA would be found to have some function?

I’m not saying that Alan has to accept the conclusions of all these books and articles, but it is certainly unfair of him to say that there has been “no genuine effort” on the part of ID people to do scientific work within an ID paradigm. (I leave aside the point that “effort” is only part of what generates results, the other part being access to institutional resources. ID would have produced much more scientific work by now if it had more funding, but ID proponents have largely been denied funding, being virtually shut out of academic jobs, post-doctoral fellowships, etc. by a largely hostile, atheist/agnostic/secular humanist biological community. If Ernst Mayr, Gaylord Simpson, Gould, Dawkins, Coyne, etc. had had to finance their researches into evolutionary biology largely by collecting handouts from private non-scientist donors, I wonder how much research neo-Darwinism would have been able to conduct. But to discuss that subject properly would require many more columns.)

Alan makes some rather shaky sociological inferences about UD commenters. He has decided that there are not many young or female commenters. How does he know this? Most commenters here write under pseudonyms, and one cannot often reliably infer the age or sex of a writer where the contents of the posts don’t provide that information. It is likely, of course, that most UD commenters are male, because male commenters dominate the internet on creation/evolution/design issues generally; but I don’t know how Alan converts that from “likely” to “certain” in the case of UD. As for age, it seems to me, based on internal references and literary style, that the commenters on UD are pretty well spread across the spectrum from people in their 20s to people in perhaps their 60s or even 70s. But I don’t claim knowledge here, only loose inference, and I don’t know how Alan can claim more. (Anyhow, I’m not sure what age has to do with the quality of one’s argument, but if age is understood to constitute some sort of intellectual disqualification to talk about religion/science issues, one might add that many of the Skeptical Zone luminaries are not exactly spring chickens: Alan’s own biographical remarks indicate a man of retirement age, and Elizabeth Liddle, the founder of TSZ, is, I believe, now over 60, and its leading evolutionary biologist commentator is, I believe, in his 60s or even 70s. Others of the New Atheist and skeptical crowds admired by many at TSZ — Richard Dawkins, Jerry Coyne, Eugenie Scott, Michael Shermer — are getting “up there” as well. People who live in glass houses …)

Alan closes his column by asking: “Who’s left there [at UD] with anything interesting to say?” Well, it depends of course on what one means by “interesting.” Many of the items highlighted by News, concerning recent developments in the various natural sciences, are interesting. They are usually not covered or even mentioned on other sites (including BioLogos and The Skeptical Zone). I have also found the columns of Vincent Torley (trained philosopher) and Rob Sheldon (trained physicist and space scientist) quite informative and thoughtful.

In the discussion following the column, Alan adds this historical comment: “science does not really get going until the end of the seventeenth century, the start of “The Enlightenment” when the shackles of religious authority began to be shrugged off.” This is an instructive comment, not for its historical value but for the insight it provides into Alan’s notions of intellectual history. Where to begin? Well, we can grant that the end of the seventeenth century might be called the start of the Enlightenment (as a matter of convention, the term “Enlightenment” is usually used to refer to the period starting about 50 to 70 years later than that, but we needn’t get sticky), and we can grant that modern science got going in the seventeenth century (though the “end” of the century is inaccurate, as there were numerous triumphs quite early in the century, with Gilbert and Galileo and Kepler, and by the middle of the century, with contributions from Descartes and others, modern science was well underway). But what about “the shackles of religious authority” being “shrugged off”? A modern historian of science would blush to write such rhetorical prose. This view of the history of science was already being seriously questioned by scholars in the 1950s (though the word hadn’t got out to the popular press, which was still pushing the “warfare” view of science and theology), and over the past 40 years it has now become clear that the rise of modern science in the 17th century was a complicated phenomenon with many causes, among which religious belief was a significant one. This can be seen in the writings of Hooykaas, Jaki, Oakley, Osler and many others (many of whom, I might add, are not personally religious individuals). It is only popular historians that are still pushing the “warfare” notion about science having to burst the “shackles” of religion. (Indeed, some of Darwin’s early supporters including leading Anglican clergymen.)

But enough regarding Alan’s comments. Even more interesting is the challenge put forward by William J. Murray, which for the sake of brevity I will paraphrase as: “You guys keep saying that ID has no substance, cannot be taken seriously, is dead or moribund, etc. So why are you so obsessed with shooting it down? Aren’t there more important ideas to be skeptical about — including religious ideas that have led to murder and terrorism — which on your own account affect the world far more than ID does?” The responses to this are quite revealing.

Some of the commenters frankly admitted that attacking ID is a sort of blood sport for them, an internet recreation, an activity of culture-war gamesmanship. (In the words of Spock to McCoy: “As I always suspected.”) Others attempted to dignify their obsession with a pretense of social concern. For example, one commenter implicitly charged that ID supporters are trying to get ID taught in the schools, and that it is responsible to keep ID out of the schools, as it is to keep astrology out of the schools. But of course ID supporters aren’t trying to get ID into the schools; Discovery repudiated that goal long ago, even before the Dover Trial. The focus of ID supporters has been on getting substantive criticism of neo-Darwinian theory into the schools — the kind of criticism that is found even in peer-reviewed scientific literature written by religious unbelievers. The Dover Trial was a very rare exception, where one small-town school board contemplated actually teaching ID in a biology class. But even there, at the end of the day, the total ID content was a 4-paragraph statement read to the students, which mentioned criticisms of Darwinian evolution within modern science, mentioned ID as an alternative, and indicated the existence of a book in the school library for anyone interested in reading up on ID. Not a single class was taught on ID, and after the two-minute reading of the statement, the ninth-grade biology curriculum carried on as it always had, teaching Darwinian evolution as the scientific explanation of origins which could not and should not be doubted. That is the full extent of ID teaching so far in the public schools of the USA. Wow! What a dangerous threat to the scientific education of American students!

Glen Davidson, that paragon of the scientific attitude (readers might want to check out his old website — if it is still up — on the mystical connections between electricity and life, when measuring his status as a spokesperson for modern science), repeats the long-refuted charge that ID is creationism, even though he must be fully aware that many ID leaders, including Behe, Denton, and several people on UD (including Torley and, last I heard, O’Leary) are not creationists in the normal sense of that word, because they accept common descent and do not use the stories in Genesis against the results of modern science. Why he deliberately misleads readers on this point, I do not know.

Alan Fox’s column certainly started off a revealing discussion. It seems to remain true that, while a variety of subjects are discussed on TSZ — the most interesting of which frequently involve the academic philosopher Kantian Naturalist — the main raison d’etre of the site has been to attack ID. But since the consensus of almost all columnists on TSZ is that ID is dead or dying, with all its credibility draining away, what purpose has TSZ any longer? In countries which have abolished capital punishment, there is no longer any abolitionist movement, because the thing being opposed no longer exists. And no one attacks the views of Erich von Daniken about chariots of the gods any longer, because no one any longer takes that hypothesis seriously. So if ID is not worth taking seriously, why doesn’t TSZ dissolve itself — or at least find some new focus for its “skepticism”? (I would suggest the more extreme claims of the AGW lobby as a suitable object for a healthy, detached skepticism which cares only about the truth about climate change and carries no brief for left-wing, anti-Western global politics.)

Indeed, it seems that only Elizabeth Liddle, the founder of TSZ, is being logical here, if current TSZ writers are correct about the impending death of ID. She hasn’t posted columns or comments in months on her own web site — which would make sense if she now thinks that ID is so outdated and irrelevant that her opposition (which was formerly constant and fierce) is no longer necessary. Yet on the site she started, her allies and followers are carrying on the fight which seems to bore her. One wonders why.

Comments
Geez vel, grow up, your question has been answered ad nauseum. Do archaeologists think all rocks are artifacts? Are all fires arsons? And all deaths murders? But yes, the presence of counterflow or work will suffice in the absence of what Behe said.Joe
February 18, 2015
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I see the light Joe, but why limit ID to only things that meet the design criteria, all human design does not meet that criteria. Just curious , is there anything that we can say is not designed?velikovskys
February 18, 2015
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"The Privileged Planet" presents the evidence that our solar system is the result of intelligent design. Thank you very much.Joe
February 18, 2015
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Joe, Our solar system is also an example of the ordering of separate components (within each planetary body and within the system as a whole) that achieves an identifiable function -- a planet capable of supporting life. I do not believe Dr. Behe (or any ID scientist) suggests that anything other than natural forces is responsible for the creation of our solar system. Do you disagree?rhampton7
February 18, 2015
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The design criteria as put forth by Dr Behe: "Our ability to be confident of the design of the cilium or intracellular transport rests on the same principles to be confident of the design of anything: the ordering of separate components to achieve an identifiable function that depends sharply on the components.” Living organisms haz it.. (post was for the ignoramus's at TSZ)Joe
February 18, 2015
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wd400:
It’s impossible to rule out “intelligent guidance or intervention” in the history of a genome, or the formation of the grand canyon.
Are you kidding me? The genome cannot come into existence without advanced engineering. No amount of dirt worshiping can change this simple fact.Mapou
February 18, 2015
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wd400:
It’s impossible to rule out “intelligent guidance or intervention” in the history of a genome, or the formation of the grand canyon. If ID is reduced to the mere possibility of intervention then it’s untestable.
Unguided evolution can't be tested.
he point I’m making is that evolutionary biology, with its assumptions that modern sequences descend from share ancestors, mutations are random and selection acts on mutations, works.
Natural selection is impotent.Joe
February 18, 2015
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vel:
Is the claim that like the rest of nature,evolutionary processes are limited in their scope, or is the claim that evolutionary science has near perfect knowledge of every step?
Evolutionary science is an oxymoron.
What is evolutionism?
Ernst Mayr wrote about it.
That is the question, you have yet to provide any more feasible alternative.
That is your ignorant opinion.
Start at the beginning.
Living organisms are evidence for ID- and that is because your position cannot explain them and they match the design criteria.Joe
February 18, 2015
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Eric, This is a bit of a two-step
OK, I’ll bite. Please give me an example or two of how our understanding of how genomes work fundamentally depends on the idea that the particular genome being studied came about through purely natural processes, with no intelligent guidance or intervention along the way, rather than by design
It's impossible to rule out "intelligent guidance or intervention" in the history of a genome, or the formation of the grand canyon. If ID is reduced to the mere possibility of intervention then it's untestable. The point I'm making is that evolutionary biology, with its assumptions that modern sequences descend from share ancestors, mutations are random and selection acts on mutations, works. One small example. If you want to "broken" protein coding genes look at the ratio of synonymous to non-synonmous substitutions. Under neutrality they will be equal, under negative selection the rate of rate of synonymous mutations will greatly exceed the non-syn. rate. This so called dN/dS ratio, which is based on an assumption of shared ancestory and random mutation, has been used thousands of times to help understand protein sequences.wd400
February 18, 2015
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velikovskys If you drink a pint of Jack, you had very little foresight or intelligence to begin with. Joe That doesn’t follow. Q.E.D.velikovskys
February 18, 2015
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Joe, Try reading and responding to what i actually post. That is known as a question, trying to clarify your statement. Evolutionism claims that it has a step-by-step process to produce the diversity of living organisms. Is the claim that like the rest of nature,evolutionary processes are limited in their scope, or is the claim that evolutionary science has near perfect knowledge of every step? And yet evolutionism doesn’t have any answers. What is evolutionism? How does it differ from evolutionary science? So you are claiming that even micro evolution does not occur? And yet you have no idea how the alternative occurs, strange to be so sure that unlike human design which often use natural processes in its designs the Design does not. Your position makes claims it cannot support. That is the question, you have yet to provide any more feasible alternative. If fact you may not to be able to provide any by definition The intelligent design- for example living organisms Specifically? Start at the beginning. Nope, education will demonstrate yours is a vacuous position. I had no idea you were capable of irony, Joevelikovskys
February 18, 2015
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wd400 @153:
Selection and conserved (ie shared by descent) sequences are central to how we understand how genomes work.
OK, I'll bite. Please give me an example or two of how our understanding of how genomes work fundamentally depends on the idea that the particular genome being studied came about through purely natural processes, with no intelligent guidance or intervention along the way, rather than by design. ----- Hint to avoid one back and forth: saying that our understanding of how the genome came about does not count, because that is precisely the issue in question and would be circular. Presumably your examples will relate to actual functionality of the genome.Eric Anderson
February 18, 2015
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velikovskys: If you drink a pint of Jack, you had very little foresight or intelligence to begin with. Certainly not the foresight. http://radioactivekittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/Terribly-Hungover-Animals-1.jpgZachriel
February 18, 2015
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If you drink a pint of Jack, you had very little foresight or intelligence to begin with.
That doesn't follow.Joe
February 18, 2015
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vel:
It claims it knows exactly every step that created the diversity of life?
Try reading and responding to what i actually post.
Then it might be fair to ask you to back up that claim. Evolutionary science seems to be spending a lot of time trying to discover that which you claim they know
And yet evolutionism doesn't have any answers.
True, ID makes no claim that it can explain how ID contributed to the diversity of life.
Your position makes claims it cannot support.
What is the ” what ” ?
The intelligent design- for example living organisms.
At least there is hope for mine.
Nope, education will demonstrate yours is a vacuous position.Joe
February 18, 2015
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Mike: If I drink a pint of Jack Daniels I have very little foresight and intelligence yet I am fully conscious. If you drink a pint of Jack, you had very little foresight or intelligence to begin with.velikovskys
February 18, 2015
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Joe: LoL! Evolutionism claims that it has a step-by-step process to produce the diversity of living organisms. It claims it knows exactly every step that created the diversity of life? We just ask evos to support that claim Then it might be fair to ask you to back up that claim. Evolutionary science seems to be spending a lot of time trying to discover that which you claim they know ID does NOT make such a claim. True, ID makes no claim that it can explain how ID contributed to the diversity of life. We have the “what”, duh. What is the " what " ? Education can cure your ignorance. At least there is hope for mine.velikovskys
February 18, 2015
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velikovskys:
Yet you find the same explanation a weakness in evolutionary theory, you demand specificity and cannot even provide generalities.
LoL! Evolutionism claims that it has a step-by-step process to produce the diversity of living organisms. We just ask evos to support that claim. ID does NOT make such a claim. Grow up.
Without a who ,what, how or when, what exactly are you testing?
We have the "what", duh.
Want some cheese with that whine?
Education can cure your ignorance.Joe
February 18, 2015
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AnimatedDust: Interconnection requires purpose. Cave labyrinth http://www.wkistler.de/more4/Sieber_Labyrinth.jpg AnimatedDust: Before primitive circulation, there was, if one goes back far enough, no circulation. As long as organisms are very small, then circulation can occur by diffusion. AnimatedDust: Describe specifically how no circulation became primitive circulation. The first step is a cavity, then cells that move materials into the cavity. Think sponge.Zachriel
February 18, 2015
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mike1962: You didn’t provide that as a definition. We used foresight, intelligence and problem-solving ability. If you have another definition, then we'd be happy to consider it. mike1962: If I drink a pint of Jack Daniels I have very little foresight and intelligence yet I am fully conscious. Good example. People can lose consciousness, in whole or in part, from drinking alcohol.Zachriel
February 18, 2015
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Graham2: Neither Mapou nor myself thought that the connection you were making was "bleeding obvious." I'll offer you a helpful word: "conjunctions". Two sentences joined into one by a conjunction are usually clearer than two sentences sitting in syntactic isolation. The conjunction, if carefully selected, removes all doubt in the reader's mind regarding the intended connection between the two ideas. If the reader is left to infer the connection without any grammatical indication, confusion or uncertainty is often the result.Timaeus
February 18, 2015
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wd400: When was the last time the TSZ or Panda’s thumb has a post taking on an ID argument? Indeed, it’s not that long since UD was making a point of TSZ’s decline. Seems perfectly consistent with ID’s evaporating relevance. L O Freaking L.Mung
February 17, 2015
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Joe: Nothing prevents anyone from trying to answer those questions wrt ID. However even with things that are within our capabilities we cannot answer those questions. Yet you find the same explanation a weakness in evolutionary theory, you demand specificity and cannot even provide generalities. Nope. ID has a methodology and can be tested- very unlike unguided evolution. Without a who ,what, how or when, what exactly are you testing? Congeniality? And only the ignorant think ID violates the establishment clause. Want some cheese with that whine?velikovskys
February 17, 2015
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mike: It may not be possible in this case. We do what we can. That seems a bit of a drawback for a scientific theory of origins. Design therefore design. I’ve never seen anyone claim that material itself is evil. (Gnostics may claim this, but I’ve never encountered a Gnostic.) Only materialism. Big difference. Material is the Darwin of materialism, no material no materialism. Lots of courts make lots of bogus rulings. It happens all the time. And in this case to which I believe you refer,the ruling has very limited jurisdiction Good thing then they didn't appealvelikovskys
February 17, 2015
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Timaeus: Yes, it was the former. I thought the meaning was sort of bleeding obvious.Graham2
February 17, 2015
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Graham2: I am aware of what is meant by "grand Jewish conspiracy"; what was not clear to me -- due to your elliptical syntax and the general sarcastic tone of your post -- was whether you were simply using "grand Jewish conspiracy" as a parallel to the claim of repression of ID supporters, or were actually imputing a grand Jewish conspiracy theory to me. I take it that you intended only the former. Generally speaking, it is not a wise policy to toss off witty remarks concerning Jews or other ethnic or religious groups. Unless the context is crystal-clear, it is too easy to misunderstand such remarks. You could have made the same point by speaking of "conspiracy theories" without reference to Jews.Timaeus
February 17, 2015
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@Zachriel "Primitive circulation was through a network of cavities formed by adjacent layers of epithelia, which allowed the sharing of of nutrients. These were then lined with mesodermal cells forming a more efficient structure." Network. "A group of interconnected people or things." Interconnection requires purpose. Circulation describes the motion of substances or things from place to place. Before primitive circulation, there was, if one goes back far enough, no circulation. Describe specifically how no circulation became primitive circulation. Primitive implies simpler. As we know now, and Darwin didn't know then, there are no "simpler" forms of life. How did the mesodermal cells know where to go and how to stick together in harmony to achieve function? If you can't know what function is desired by becoming more efficient, how do you get there? And a human infant has 60,000 MILES of perfectly formed tubes, all with a specific purpose and placement. You've provided a couple sentences of generalized speculation. None of it is even slightly coherent when unpacked. Same with Dawkins attempting to describe scientifically how vision "emerged." Help me out with that?AnimatedDust
February 17, 2015
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Graham2 @167, First, there is no conspiracy. It's just one group (atheists) competing against another (theists). Second, it has nothing to do with being Jewish. In a sense, I, too, am Jewish (I have some Jewish ancestry somewhere) since I believe in the Jewish God, Yahweh. But so what? Just retract your nonsense and everything will be cool.Mapou
February 17, 2015
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vel:
It avoids it, curious because almost all design inference seeks to discover the how ,who and when of the design
Nothing prevents anyone from trying to answer those questions wrt ID. However even with things that are within our capabilities we cannot answer those questions. LoL! 1- Science cannot be adjudicated and
But it seems ID can
Nope. ID has a methodology and can be tested- very unlike unguided evolution. And only the ignorant think ID violates the establishment clause.Joe
February 17, 2015
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Mapou: look up the expression 'conspiracy theory'.Graham2
February 17, 2015
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