Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

An Open Challenge to Neo-Darwinists: What Would It Take to Falsify Your Theory?

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A criticism which neo-Darwinists have frequently made of Intelligent Design is that it is not a “scientific” theory. ID, they say, explains the bacterial flagellum by saying “God [sic] made it”. However, they complain, it doesn’t say when God made it, how God made it, what material substrate God was acting on when he made it, etc. It therefore gives scientists nothing to go on, nothing to work with, nothing on which they can base experiments which could confirm or disconfirm the explanation.

In contrast, they believe, Darwinian explanations give scientists something to work on. The hypothesis that the flagellum slowly evolved, through a series of intermediate, functional steps, allows for testing. One can look for possible intermediate steps, e.g., the Type III secretory system, and confirm whether or not they exist in nature. One can study mutation rates and reproduction rates of bacteria, and calculate how many mutations have probably occurred over any given length of time, to see if enough time was available for the evolution of a flagellum, and so on. Thus, in their minds, Darwinism is a scientific theory, whereas ID is not.

It is clear that this line of argument presupposes a particular criterion for what makes an explanation scientific. To be scientific, a proposal, hypothesis or theory must be testable. We must be able to find evidence in nature that could confirm or disconfirm it.

Some ID critics narrow this down further, and say that scientific theories must be falsifiable. That is, ID cannot expect to be taken seriously as a scientific theory unless it is willing to specify a set of observations (taken directly from nature or resulting from experiments) that could prove it to be wrong.  ID must say what it would take to falsify the existence of the proposed Intelligent Designer.

Now there has been a long debate over whether falsifiability is a good criterion to apply to scientific theories. The most frequently cited champion of falsifiability is of course Karl Popper, and as everyone here knows, many philosophers of science have disputed Popper’s claims. I do not propose to enter into the arguments here. I will say only that I find falsifiability, if not an absolute requirement of any scientific theory, at least a highly desirable element in a scientific theory, and I will refer readers to Popper’s writings if they want a detailed justification of this. A brief justification, in Popper’s own words, is available on-line.

For the purpose of my challenge here, however, my own view on falsification is irrelevant.  Here I am going to agree, not out of personal conviction but purely for the sake of argument, with those neo-Darwinians who insist that scientific theories must be falsifiable. But then I am going to ask them to apply that standard to their own theory. I am going to ask them whether neo-Darwinism is itself falsifiable. I believe it is not, and that therefore, by their own criterion, it does not qualify as science.

Now I know that when this argument has been made in the past, neo-Darwinians have issued a standard answer.  They say that Darwinian evolution is easily falsifiable. All one has to do is find a Cambrian rabbit, or any other fossil that is so far out of sequence that the creature in question cannot have evolved by stepwise Darwinian means. This, however, for reasons given by others, is not an adequate answer. Many ID proponents have no problem with the notion of common descent. They have no problem with the notion that one creature has been used as the basis of a subsequent and more advanced creature. They therefore do not reject “evolution”, and they have no desire to find a Cambrian rabbit or a Jurassic monkey. What they reject is the Darwinian “chance plus natural selection” explanation of evolution. So what neo-Darwinians are being asked, when they are being asked about falsification, is not “What would falsify common descent?” It is: “What would falsify your theory that small, incremental steps, which occur due to genetic accidents, can be combined into useful new structures, up to and including the creation of entirely new functional body plans?”

This is the question that I am putting to neo-Darwinists today. What would it take to falsify your belief, for example, that land creatures are ultimately modified fish, transformed by slow, tiny and wholly fortuitous steps from gill-breathers to lung-breathers? What genetic, developmental, or other evidence would you accept as a demonstration that fish could not have become land-dwelling creatures via purely Darwinian means? What genetic, developmental or other evidence would you accept as a demonstration that the camera eye could not have developed by purely Darwinian means?

When ID people read Darwinian literature, we get the strong impression that Darwinians do not ask whether Darwinian means are capable of producing their alleged effects. They appear to be asking only how Darwinian means did so. And when one possible evolutionary pathway is shown to be impossible on scientific grounds, another pathway, always within Darwinian assumptions, is put forward to replace it. At no point, as far as we can see, do Darwinians ever say: “Well, maybe we have been wrong all along. Maybe Darwinian explanation cannot account for evolutionary change.” And so, when we read in Darwinian polemics that ID is “unscientific” because it will not commit itself to any model of the designer’s action specific enough to be falsified, we are rather irritated by the apparent double standard, because we have not seen such a falsifiable model in the Darwinist literature.

So, again, here is the challenge to neo-Darwinians: What would it take for you to concede, not just that this or that proposed evolutionary pathway is wrong, but that the entire Darwinian explanation of evolutionary change is wrong? What evidence would it take for you to concede that small, random, stepwise changes cannot produce the specific macroevolutionary effects that the fossil record appears to record? And the corollary question is: If you are unwilling to specify in advance what it would take to falsify neo-Darwinian mechanisms, are you willing, here and now, either to admit that neo-Darwinism is not a scientific theory, or to drop the requirement of falsifiability which you have laid upon ID?

Comments
All of which have to be SPECIFIED for that gene.
Evolution is not guided to any specific goal.
Not in your scenario anyway. With ID evolution is guided.
It is not necessary for any particular(or specific if you prefer) gene or binding site to evolve. There are a vast number of potential genes and binding sites that could evolve.
It is necessary for a particular gene and binding sites to evolve for the reasons provided. New genes require a particular binding site. And even if there are a number of different binding sites you still need one of them. The same goes for all the other meta-information- promoters, enhancers, represssors, etc. Each has to be for a particular gene and not for some non-protein coding sequence. For example say via duplication we get a new gene. That gene is useless without all the PARTICULAR meta-information for that gene. What part of that don't you understand?Joseph
February 27, 2009
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Ray: The primary difficulty with your position is that it clashes with that of many leading ID supporters. For example, Michael Behe accepts common descent, but is arguably the world's leading proponent of intelligent design. How do you square that with your position? You can of course define terms any way that you want to. You can define "evolution" to mean what I am calling "Darwinism". In that case, evolution is obviously opposed to ID. But then you cannot distinguish between different explanations for evolution, and in my view that would be a poor decision. Aside from the fact that it would obscure important scientific differences between Darwin, Lamarck, Denton, etc., it flies in the face of the fact that the Roman Church allows evolution as a permitted view of origins, which it would not do if evolution implied only the chance mechanisms put forward by Darwin. For you to say that Denton and Bergson are "nobodies" is impertinent. One would need to show a long record of intellectual accomplishment oneself before one could presume to dismiss such talented individuals so cavalierly. I can only presume that you have not read any of their works. That fact alone ought to caution you not to make any remarks about them. I will not remark in detail on the various historical errors in your comments. They show lack of knowledge of the primary sources, and lack of knowledge of the history of evolutionary theory. I would recommend not relying so much on web sites and evangelical sources, and making more use of a university library, or even taking a course on the history of science. Ray, if you will accept a little brotherly advice from one who is opposed to atheism as much as you are: ID is not a religious crusade against atheism. It is not a religious crusade against common descent. It is an intellectual movement to investigate, and if possible demonstrate, the existence of design in nature. Religious zeal, however appropriate it is in some contexts, does not help make the public case for ID, especially when it leads one to make incorrect historical statements or to comment negatively on authors one has not read. Every time a defender of ID makes an erroneous statement, the public image of ID is lowered. Those of us who have carefully studied the original writings of Darwin, the history of science, and so on, would prefer not to have to go into damage control mode to deal with careless statements made by those on our own side. We would rather direct our attacks against the Darwinists. So please, concentrate on getting your history and your science right.Thomas Cudworth
February 26, 2009
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Mr. Martinez, DS said there was evidence for common descent. Your response was
Something Ken Miller or Richard Dawkins would say. The evidence of ID says evolution (”descent with modification”) is false. The alleged evidence of evolution says ID is false. ID and evolution are antithetic concepts—-enemy combatants.
And then said
My responses explained why every quote was utterly incorrect.
If ID is anything at all it’s an empirical challenge to chance and law as a first cause. To be honest, I guess my objection to your post was the sort of correctness of thought you demand while making a factual error about something I care about. Virtually the entire ID planet would like our adversaries to immediately start making the appropriate distinction between Darwin’s special and general theories; between micro and macro evolution. I know I would be smiling if science all-the-sudden recognized the distinction between the designed object and its rather elegant ability to survive in what might be called a chance environment. That’s what ID is about, it’s about the evidence. It’s difficult to believe ID is furthered along in this goal if ID proponents themselves don’t care to make the distinction. Whatever gains ID makes it probably gives plenty back in mistakes. It's supposed to be a big tent. Consider making your assertions reflect the actual physical evidence. That is what we are asking our adversaries to do.Upright BiPed
February 26, 2009
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"I think it is striking that there is no way of falsifying the Darwinian mechanism, " I do not think this true. We just haven't got to the place or have the technology to do the falsifying. Let me explain why. One of the arguments I have used against gradualism is the lack of forensic evidence to support it. Climbing Mt. Improbable would leave a trail of different possible paths of species that were branching points. Each new species is a node and can branch in several directions and there is no reason to think that the entire population would disappear if a sub population took off in a different direction. So climbing Mt. Improbable would leave a series of species behind that would be predecessors. But we do not see it in the fossil record or in the suite of species that exists on earth today. There should be lots of examples of branching in our extant species collection. They do not exist except for trivial variants of each other. No climbing of any peak on Mt. Improbable. The Darwinists also recognized this a long time ago and the result was the punctuated equilibrium of Gould and Eldredge. They knew gradualism was dead and they must develop a theory that would support PE. That is what the book that Allen MacNeill recommended is about. As best as I can understand it, the theory is now one that would explain sudden and dramatic changes. Not hopeful monsters but the addition of a sudden new characteristic that was not there before. It would be anything but gradual. Essentially a part of the genome lays fallow for millions of years accumulating changes and these changes are not subject to selection till the function arises which changes the morphology of the species and thus becomes selectable. This is what has to be addressed today. And it will be almost impossible to do it till lots of genomes have been mapped and the various parts and functions controlled by these parts are identified. Then it may be possible to say that the there is no way that such and such a section could have arisen naturally. Till then the Darwinists will say it could and we will be at a stand off. The work of Kirk Durston, Dembski and Marks, Michael Behe and others to follow could examine the feasibility of the DNA arising that controls these complicated functions but the Darwinist will always claim it can and will do so till backed into a corner by the data. At which point they will find a new idea to cling to. Eventually they will run out of ideas but we all here will probably be long gone. They were backed into a corner by the fossil data and the nature of current species that exists but have found this temporary out.jerry
February 26, 2009
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Thomas Cudworth (#115): "....you have overstated the opposition of ID to 'evolution'. 'Evolution' is an ambiguous word. Assuming we are talking about 'Darwinian evolution...." The word "evolution" is inextricably linked to Darwin. I have NOT overstated the opposition. I have stated a round earth fact: the concept seen and understood in "ID" and the concept seen and understood in "evolution" are enemy combatants. ID presupposes Intelligent agency operating in reality causing biological production. Evolution, since Darwin 1859, presupposes unguided material or natural agencies operating in reality causing biological production. The ID (or Creationism)-Evolution debate always presupposes "evolution" to mean Darwinian because it was Darwin's view that was accepted and remains accepted. Thomas Cudworth: "The first observation to make is that #1 [= Common descent] is not peculiar to Darwinism, was not invented by Darwin, and is not what makes Darwinism Darwinian. Lamarck, Bergson, Denton and many others have accepted the notion of common descent while differing from Darwin regarding the mechanism." Completely false. Darwin was the FIRST to propose that each species derived from a previously living species----perpetually----until biological First Cause (thus eliminating God). Lamarck relied upon spontaneous generation (Divine involvement) to sustain descent (David Clifford, Ph.D., the Victorian Web, Lamarck biography). Buffon's proposal, in the 18th century, advocated very limited transmutation. Bergson and Denton are nobodys. Thomas Cudworth: "The second observation to be made is that ID, as such, is not opposed to #1, but it is adamantly opposed to #2 [= RM + NS]. It does not believe that chance has the creative powers assigned to it by Darwinism." ID is completely opposed to common descent (CD) BECAUSE CD (listen closely) was accepted as being caused by unguided material, natural selection. Unguided material was proposed by Darwin because he rejected Intelligent causation to be operating in nature. CD is thus a required rendering of nature since God (= Intelligent causation) is an absentee landlord. But we agree with Dembski: God is not an absentee landlord (1999). You cannot accept CD apart from how it was accepted (= natural selection). CD says the God of Genesis does not exist. In 19th century England, only Atheists advocated evolution-common descent (Secord 2000). Thomas Cudworth: "Your point is that there are reasons to be critical of even common ancestry, and you are of course free as an individual to make arguments against common ancestry, but I don’t think that ID as a movement should focus on those, because common ancestry does not put ID at risk." Yes, it does. CD says ID does not exist. RayR. Martinez
February 26, 2009
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Upright BiPed (#114): "Ray every quote you attribute to DS in your post was absolutely correct based on current observation." My responses explained why every quote was utterly incorrect. "Some details have stronger inference than others. None are above the question." Evolution and common ancestry are questioned and rejected. This is why there is a ID-Evolution debate that has been raging for decades. All polls and surveys consistently report that over half of all adults in the U.S. are anti-evolutionists, Creationists and/or IDists. "Try to stay with the evidence." Try to keep up with the times. I would also say that you failed to paste anything I argued because you are unable to address and/or refute. The evidence supports ID, this is why the majority just alluded to rejects Darwinism. RayR. Martinez
February 26, 2009
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Ray (#113): I cannot speak for DaveScot, and I have no intention of wading into the argument about how firmly common descent is established. However, you have overstated the opposition of ID to "evolution". "Evolution" is an ambiguous word. Assuming we are talking about "Darwinian evolution", I see the notion as having two parts: 1. Common descent. 2. A mechanism explaining how one species turns into another. In Darwinian theory, this mechanism is random mutation plus natural selection (with occasionally bits of other stuff like sexual selection thrown in). It's essentially a chance mechanism, because the supposedly "rational" part of it, natural selection, can do nothing but work on what chance throws up. The first observation to make is that #1 is not peculiar to Darwinism, was not invented by Darwin, and is not what makes Darwinism Darwinian. Lamarck, Bergson, Denton and many others have accepted the notion of common descent while differing from Darwin regarding the mechanism. The second observation to be made is that ID, as such, is not opposed to #1, but it is adamantly opposed to #2. It does not believe that chance has the creative powers assigned to it by Darwinism. You are right to say that ID does not presuppose common ancestry to be a fact. But it does not require rejecting common ancestry, either. Common ancestry could be true (i.e., all living forms could be derived from previous living forms) within a design framework. Constant intervention, occasional intervention or front-loaded design would all be compatible with common ancestry. Your point is that there are reasons to be critical of even common ancestry, and you are of course free as an individual to make arguments against common ancestry, but I don't think that ID as a movement should focus on those, because common ancestry does not put ID at risk. ID is only put at risk if Darwinists can show that new complex integrated systems can arise due to freak combinations of mutations. That is why I have spoken above of the difference between falsifying common descent ( e.g., finding a Cambrian rabbit) and falsifying the Darwinian mechanism. I think it is striking that there is no way of falsifying the Darwinian mechanism, whereas new theories in physics and chemistry almost always generate experiments which could falsify them. Should we respect a hypothetical mechanism that cannot be subject to falsification?Thomas Cudworth
February 26, 2009
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Ray every quote you attribute to DS in your post was absolutely correct based on current observation. Some details have stronger inference than others. None are above the question. Try to stay with the evidence.Upright BiPed
February 26, 2009
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DaveScot (#21): "The 'vast amount of evidence' supports descent with modification...." Something Ken Miller or Richard Dawkins would say. The evidence of ID says evolution ("descent with modification") is false. The alleged evidence of evolution says ID is false. ID and evolution are antithetic concepts----enemy combatants. "....from one or several common ancestors beginning hundreds of millions or billions of years ago." Again, something Ken Miller or Richard Dawkins would say. Common ancestry is the main claim of Darwinian evolution. It is actually a presupposition made necessary by the a priori rejection of Intelligent causation to be operating in reality. "ID doesn’t dispute this." ID most certainly says evolution and common ancestry (= Darwinism) are utterly false. "The mechanism that caused the modification is what ID disputes." DaveScot is demonstrably confused. Each reply presupposes the fusion of contrary concepts or ideas (= confusion). The ID-Evolution debate does NOT presuppose evolution and common ancestry to be scientific facts. Both evolution ("descent with modification") and common ancestry (alleged result of evolution) presuppose the absence of Intelligent causation to be operating in nature. IF Intelligent causation is operating in nature, and the appearance of design and organized complexity seen in every aspect of nature say that it is, then evolution and common ancestry are false, non-existent, an illusion at best caused by the concept seen in "Mastermind." RayR. Martinez
February 26, 2009
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joseph:
All of which have to be SPECIFIED for that gene.
Evolution is not guided to any specific goal. It is not necessary for any particular(or specific if you prefer) gene or binding site to evolve. There are a vast number of potential genes and binding sites that could evolve.B L Harville
February 26, 2009
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Thomas, While you were writing your last comment here, I was writing a comment that is the flip side of what you said here https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/faq-3-open-for-comment/comment-page-1/#comment-305974 You however have said it better and maybe your comment should be added to the ID as science FAQ because that is where it also belongs.jerry
February 26, 2009
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Mark Frank (#104): I respect your decision to withdraw. I hope it’s not caused by bad manners on my part. I will respond to the single argument you raise in your last post, and then, if I do not hear from you again, will let the matter rest. I do not quite understand your last point. You seem to be saying that a full Darwinian path would not be adequate to falsify ID for firm ID supporters, because (you anticipate) ID people would say that most of the genes involved already existed and therefore little new information was generated. I don’t know why any ID supporter would say this. Granted, Darwinian processes build on pre-existing genes, but they also are supposed to be able to create radically new structures, and this requires creating previously non-existent genes. If Darwinians could prove that chance mutations could create previously non-existent genes capable of creating radically new structures, structures perfectly functional in themselves and also co-ordinated with all the rest of the systems of the creature in question, then ID would be finished. If we put a bacterium without a flagellum into a liquid medium in which motility would provide a great selective advantage, and in 10,000 generations, without any experimental tampering, it developed descendants with various partial flagella, most of which were deleterious and killed the organism, but a few of which had some useful intermediate function, and finally one of the descendants of one of the bacteria with a useful intermediate function developed a fully working flagellum, that surely would count against design, because it would prove that chance variations, unguided by intelligence, could create new complex functional structures by a series of gradual steps. What Darwinism has never proved is that chance can produce such viable new complex structures. Indeed it is very hard to see how one could verify the power of chance to do this, given the Darwinians’ own insistence that the process requires millions of generations and hence is almost always unobservable. And what applies to verification applies to falsification: Darwinism is generally unable to suggest potentially falsifying experiments, again because of the long time-span required for evolutionary processes. However, insofar as we have been able to observe the equivalent of long time spans (through creatures with rapid reproductive rates such as microbes and fruit flies), we have discovered that mutation does not (so far) show much in the way of the ability to create complex new structures. On this point I would direct you to Behe’s *The Edge of Evolution*. Thus, the grand capabilities attributed to Darwinian mechanisms lack verification, and are apparently impossible to falsify. So, even if you were right to say that ID could never be falsified, it would then be in exactly the same boat as Darwinism, which was the original point of my argument. Theories that cannot be falsified, but which can still plausibly explain a set of observations, are either legitimate science or they are not. If they are legitimate science, then intelligent design, even if it could never be falsified, would belong in science class along with Darwinism, which also can never be falsified. If they are not legitimate science, then both Darwinism and ID should be moved out of science class and into philosophy class; i.e., the biology curriculum should get out of the origins business, and should content itself with the scientific description of the structures and functions of living things that are accessible to our repeatable observation and experimentation. I could live with either of these two consistent approaches, and so, I suspect, could most ID people. That was the main point I wanted to make.Thomas Cudworth
February 26, 2009
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Joseph Re #106. The "something about whales" was an example of a complex integrated system arising. Or don't whales count as complex integrated systems?Mark Frank
February 26, 2009
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Joseph Could you confirm that you have read the paper you keep quoting and understand all of it?Mark Frank
February 26, 2009
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In fact any outcome is compatible is with a designer of undefined powers and motives - but that is a long standing dispute…..
That is a long-standing strawman. Reduce and simplify- reduce what it is you are investigating to its simplest point. If you can reduce a "complex integrated system" to its individual parts then you have removed the requirement for agency involvement.Joseph
February 26, 2009
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Thomas asks for one thing- 6. Finally note that ID, unlike Darwinism, is entirely falsifiable. All that Darwinism has to do to falsify ID is to show – in detail – how even ONE complex integrated system could have arisen without any designer, and ID falls to the ground. And Mark responds with something about whales! Try to focus on what Thomas said. Ya see ID does not say that whales could not have evolved from a land mammal.Joseph
February 26, 2009
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The relevance of the paper shows just how difficult it is to get just ONE NEW BINDING SITE!!!
Not quite, what it shows is the difficulty of evolving a particular binding site.
Did you not understand the rest of my post? Just substitute your "particular" for my "specific": In order to go from single-celled populations to what we observe today requires new genes. New genes require SPECIFIC binding sites. New genes require SPECIFIC promoters. New genes require new enhancers and even repressors. All of which have to be SPECIFIED for that gene.Joseph
February 26, 2009
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Thomas I am going to drop out of this thread except for a comment on your final paragraph. I think the subject of the falsifiability of Darwinism has been explored rather thoroughly. I disagree with this part of the last paragraph of yours: 6. Finally note that ID, unlike Darwinism, is entirely falsifiable. All that Darwinism has to do to falsify ID is to show – in detail – how even ONE complex integrated system could have arisen without any designer, and ID falls to the ground. Suppose by some miracle someone was able to supply a detailed, mutation by mutation, description how the whale evolved from early mammals. To satisy ID criteria this would have to be shown to be a probable set of mutations. Also it would inevitably rely heavily on many genes that evolved before the first mammals. The ID proponent can then say: You have shown that the whale could easily have evolved from the earlier mammal. Therefore, very little new information was required to do this. The information was all in the genome of the ancestor early mammal which is where the design took place. In fact any outcome is compatible is with a designer of undefined powers and motives - but that is a long standing dispute.....Mark Frank
February 25, 2009
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Joseph:
The relevance of the paper shows just how difficult it is to get just ONE NEW BINDING SITE!!!
Not quite, what it shows is the difficulty of evolving a particular binding site. It's like computing the odds of a particular lottery player winning the lottery. Any particular player is unlikely to win but there are lots of players so the odds of some player winning is good. Likewise, a particular binding site is unlikely to evolve but there are lots of potential binding sites so some site is likely to evolve in a much more reasonable timeframe.B L Harville
February 25, 2009
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Sometime in the next 20-30 years there will be enough information about the genome, probably of humans because that is where money can be more easily spent, to assess the origin of most proteins and protein systems as well as other systems in the genome that are regulatory or controlling. When that time comes there will be compelling evidence that naturalistic processes can or cannot produce all these proteins, systems and regulatory and controlling networks. My guess is that the evidence will show that they cannot, based on what we know today. The current paradigm for the origin of novelty is that duplicated genes or non coding segments of DNA lay fallow for millions of years accumulating mutations or rearrangements till some function arises. Then the newly functional segment of DNA becomes subject to natural selection as the organism's phenotype is modified in some substantial way. My guess is that these necessary functional modifications are beyond the probabilistic resources available and there will be a new dance to find some other process that could explain the origin of changes. We could have a civil discussion here about this with those who support ID and those who do not but as we can all see that is not likely to happen very often. We will get quizzed constantly about the nature of the designer and the designer's motives or the nature of the process used and the timing of designs, the sub optimality of the designs, the designer of the designer, the calculation of CSI, etc. Not because anyone who challenges ID really cares about this but because this is the best obstructionist tactic they know. They have no defense of their belief system and are reluctant to even discuss it. As such their only hope is to bog us down in this inanity. Witness the last 3-4 weeks of feigned concern about these issues. It would be refreshing to just have an intelligent discussion with one some day. But as a one time hit song said, "That'll be the Day." We actually had a very informative, nice and reasonable anti ID evolutionary biologist here at one time. Where is great_ape when we need him?jerry
February 25, 2009
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Mark Frank (#94): Thanks for engaging again. I will make one more attempt to clarify my argument. 1. Actually, “There could be another planet between Earth and Mars” is quite falsifiable, provided the planet is not of negligible size. If a scientist were to assert “There could be another planet between Earth and Mars, of earthlike density and with a diameter of 2,000 miles”, that scientist would be expected to predict the gravitational perturbations of the orbits of all the other planets, and to point to astronomical observations which would necessarily be obtainable if the hypothesis were true. If observations disconfirmed the perturbations, then the existence of a planet of the proposed size would be falsified. Note the phrase “of earthlike density and with a diameter of 2,000 miles”. Modern science is quantitative, not merely qualitative. Without the numbers, there is no way of testing the assertion. A planet the size of a marble, the mass of which cannot be registered by earth instruments, cannot be tested for. A planet of unspecified size or density, and hence unspecified mass and gravitational attraction, cannot be tested for. No specification of mass, no prediction of perturbations; no prediction of perturbations, no falsification possible; no falsification possible, no science. 2. The parallel with Newtonian laws and Darwinian processes isn’t sound. We know that Newton’s laws (modified slightly by Einstein etc.) are accurate mathematical descriptions of the way that nature works. We do not know that the processes which produce longer finch beaks on the Galapagos can turn marine worms into insects and snails and fish. So I agree with you that we can be sure that the star got into position via Newtonian/Einsteinian means, even if we can’t trace the whole history of the star’s movements. No such certainty is available in the case of alleged macroevolutionary processes. That is precisely what the criticism of Darwinism is all about. You will find that criticism very nicely set forth in the works of Michael Denton, Michael Behe, David Berlinski, etc. If you haven’t read any of these, I recommend that you do. 3. You call my demand for extensive specifics in evolutionary claims “absurd”. But then you are saying one of two things. You are saying either that modern science itself is absurdly demanding (because it does in fact insist on extensive specification), or you are saying that Darwinian theory should not be expected to live up to the standards of modern science. I don’t agree with either answer. Modern science’s desire for precise quantitative details, as opposed to broad, loose descriptions, is what has given us really good theories to account for natural phenomena. It is also the reason that modern science is so effective in the practical realm, and we have electricity and warm homes in the winter and radio and movies and air travel and countless other fruits of science to attest to that. If 300 years ago our modern evolutionary biologists been put in charge of the development of chemistry and physics and engineering, and had used their characteristic speculative and storytelling modes of reasoning in those areas of science, we would today be freezing in the dark in the winter, and speculating about the history of life on earth by candlelight. Thank God that Faraday and Edison and Clerk Maxwell and Lavoisier and Cavendish and Mendeleev were in charge of the march of science and technology, not Darwin and Huxley and Mayr and Gaylord Simpson and Dawkins. But even if we grant that a science need not have practical applications to be valid, it should still have to meet the normal standards of observational and experimental confirmation and disconfirmation. Why should Darwinism be given exemptions here? Why should Darwinism be able to say, “I propose, on the strength of three very fragmentary but purportedly intermediate fossil finds, that a wolflike animal underwent a series of thousands of mutations, and turned into a blue whale over the course of roughly 10 million years”, and not be required to provide any further specifics about those thousands of alleged mutations? Why should it not have to explain how the physiology of nursing underwater was achieved, both in terms of practical difficulties (for one, non-functional intermediate nursing organs would result in the death of the species) and in terms of the precise genetic changes required in order to alter the nipples, the secretion process, etc.? Why should it not have to explain in detail how the nostril became a blowhole, so that scientists can test the developmental claims involved in that? Why can it get away with “somehow nostrils became blowholes, and somehow underwater nursing was achieved”? That’s how Darwinian theory proceeds. It doesn’t give exact mechanical analyses of anything; it tells stories, uncheckable stories. 4. I think my analogy in the previous post is pertinent. I can know that Woody Allen didn’t snap the spine of Hulk Hogan, even if Woody Allen has no alibi for the evening of the murder. I can know that because Woody Allen isn’t capable of doing so. I am claiming that Darwinian processes are the Woody Allen of biology. I am saying that they could no more produce the Cambrian explosion than Woody could snap Hulk’s spine. And I am saying that if the Darwinian processes were precisely defined, it would be possible to prove that Darwinian processes weren’t capable of doing what they are supposed to have done, just as we can prove that a sandstorm couldn’t have created the Great Pyramid. The reason that RM + NS has so far escaped decisive falsification is that in no particular example have its hypothetical operations ever been nailed down precisely enough to test. The nostril became a blowhole – but how? Without a “how”, the proposal doesn’t even rise to the level of a scientific hypothesis. It’s just a fantasy. Supply the “how”, in terms of precise locations on the genome and in embryonic development, and now we’ve got a falsifiable hypothesis. In modern science one is supposed to define putative processes precisely enough that potentially falsifying experiments can be set up. Darwinism escapes falsification by avoiding this normal requirement of modern science. And then it has the chutzpah to set itself up as the pinnacle of modern science. 5. Regarding your final challenge, like most ID critics, you misunderstand what ID is about. ID is not a causal narrative, as Darwinism is. ID does not pretend, and cannot pretend, to itemize the steps by which design found its way into nature. ID belongs to information science, not historical science. Whereas Darwinism *must* provide a detailed historical narrative, because of the sort of theory it is, ID is only required to show the existence of design, not to explain how it got there. 6. Finally note that ID, unlike Darwinism, is entirely falsifiable. All that Darwinism has to do to falsify ID is to show – in detail – how even ONE complex integrated system could have arisen without any designer, and ID falls to the ground. But Darwinism has yet to show – in anything approaching normal scientific detail – how any complex integrated system could have arisen without any designer. Darwinism is a series of promissory notes that some day it will be able to do this. The pile of promissory notes is now quite high, and the ones on the bottom of the pile are now 150 years old.Thomas Cudworth
February 25, 2009
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Mark Frank, Your whole position is theoretical and requires many assumptions. The relevance of the paper shows just how difficult it is to get just ONE NEW BINDING SITE!!! In order to go from single-celled populations to what we observe today requires new genes. New genes require SPECIFIC binding sites. New genes require SPECIFIC promoters. New genes require new enhancers and even repressors. All of which have to be SPECIFIED for that gene. IOW they set out to refute Behe and the refuted UCD. And BTW, they only "refuted" Behe assuming almost ideal conditions.Joseph
February 25, 2009
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#94 Joseph I glanced over the paper but it is quite technical and I am not certain I really understand the conclusions. Presumably you do? As I understand it is estimates the mean time to wait for two mutations which might be needed to change the expression of gene in a population. The results were quite reasonable for Drosophilia but the estimated mean time for humans was so long it is most unlikely that a pair of mutations like this would ever happen. It is of course a very theoretical calculation which necessarily had to make a lot of assumptions (that much I can tell). But more importantly I think it is saying - if you wanted to achieve X then the mean-time to wait would be Y. But of course evolution doesn't want to achieve anything. It doesn't set a target for which mutations it needs to make. Rather it makes mutations and sees where it ends up. So I am not sure of the relevance of the paper - but then I am not sure I understand it either. Here is a copy of the abstract for any interested reader. Note the last sentence! Results of Nowak and collaborators concerning the onset of cancer due to the inactivation of tumor suppresor genes give the distribution of the time until some individual in a population has experienced two prespecified mutations, and the time until this mutant phenotype becomes fixed in the population. In this article we apply these results to obtain insights into regulatory sequence evolution in Drosophila and humans. In particular, we examine the waiting time for a pair of mutations, the first of which inactivates an existing transcription factor binding site and the second which creates a new one. Consistent with recent experimental observations for Drosophila, we find that a few million years is sufficient, but for humans with a much smaller effective population size, this type of change would take more than 100 million years. In addition, we use these results to expose flaws in some of Michael Behe’s arguments concerning mathematical limits to Darwinian evolution.Mark Frank
February 25, 2009
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I should also say that besides the amount of change, what is needed is some measure of the quality or functionality of the change. It is possible to get massive amounts of changes to a genome through natural processes but these changes could be gibberish and not code anything meaningful or useful.jerry
February 25, 2009
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Allen, can you address, Jerry's very salient point? Since these processes do happen, what is falsified is the amount of change these processes can effect. tribune7
February 25, 2009
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neo Darwinism is really a very simple theory and because it is simple it cannot be falsified. It simply says that things change in a genome and these changes are transferred to new organisms during reproduction and these changes are subject to natural selection. That is all. These three processes are so simple and true that one cannot falsify such an obvious truth. The processes that create the changes in gametes are many and much of the research going on in evolutionary biology deals with these changes to gametes. Few changes will survive gestation and development. There are also additional processes besides natural selection that affect viability after new offspring are born and these are part of neo Darwinism. So what can be attacked is not neo Darwinism but the various specific processes that are said to operate and the extent of their ability to produce change. Since there is little on the genetic side that ID does not agree with, why try to falsify these processes. All the critical action is on the changes to gametes. So if we are going to falsify anything, it is those processes that produce change. Since these processes do happen, what is falsified is the amount of change these processes can effect. This my friends is what the whole debate is about. How much change can natural processes affect in a gamete over time. Not about natural selection and all the other processes that affect offspring once they arrive, not about the actual processes that produce change in gametes, not about the changes that happen during reproduction but solely about the amount of change that is produced in gametes prior to reproduction. It is not about the issue of gradualism because that has been abandoned by the neo Darwinists a long time ago. Though a lot of the Darwinists apparently have not gotten the word. So how much change can naturalistic processes produce? That is what Kirk Durston's work is about. That is what Dembski and Marks work is about, that is what Behe's Edge of Evolution is about. That is where the fight is and these men are using different techniques and research methodology to address this issue. So we should keep our efforts focused on the real battle in this war and less on the side issues which are often interesting. Forrest animals to whales are an interesting side issue but not the real issue.jerry
February 25, 2009
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Thomas Cudworth [92]
So the challenge remains unmet: Presuming for the sake of argument that all future fossil finds are compatible with the hypothesis of common descent, what future discovery in genetics, developmental biology, ecology, physiology, biochemistry, or other relevant sciences could decisively disprove RM + NS as the *cause* of common descent?
Once more into the breach, dear friends: As you may have experienced, predicting the future can be difficult and is sometimes perilous. Does the fact that I can't make such a prediction mean that a new, unexpected, surprising mechanism that has more explanatory power than RM + NS cannot or will not be discovered? Who knows? In the meantime...Adel DiBagno
February 25, 2009
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Mark Frank, As I said if the paper: “Waiting for two mutations: with applications to regulatory sequence evolution and the limits of Darwinian evolution” does not falsify universal common descent, nothing will- read on: This paper demonstrates the constraints on just getting a new specific binding site. And with universal common descent not only are new specified binding sites required, but so are new genes, promoters, enhancers, repressors and all other meta-information required to get this new stuff into the existing combinatorial logic. The fact that evolutionists are still trying to salvage the loss just demonstrates there isn’t anything that would falsify it.Joseph
February 25, 2009
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Thomas I am a bit confused about what you are actually looking for. It appears you want to know how a statement of the lines: A whale could have evolved from a land mammal by RM+NS. can be falsified. It is really weird to ask for conditional statements like that to be falsified. Imagine if I asked you how the statement “there could be another planet orbiting between Earth and Mars” could be falsified. May I suggest that what you want to know is something on these lines. Taking for granted that whales did evolve from land mammals how could the statement “the evolution of whales from land mammals happened through RM+NS” be falsified Current evolutionary theory is a lot more than RM+NS – but I understand what you mean. So what is the status of the falsification of Darwinism? I am no expert but my impression is: As discussed, there are major consequences of the theory as a whole that could have falsified the whole thing (age of earth, particulate inheritance, common descent). There are mechanisms that might not have been observed in a short term observable timescale. For example: Microevolution might not have been observed. If no species had ever appeared to respond to natural selection then Darwinism would be in serious trouble. Artificial selection might not have worked. Breeders might have failed to produce any significant change in domestic animals. In the longer term inevitably things get a bit more difficult. Molecular data is kind of hard to come by from millions of year ago. However, it is possible to falsify a specific proposal about how one organism gradually evolved into another via gradual steps each of which increased fitness. The fossil record might show that actually the intermediates species did not follow this path, genetic or cladistic data might contradict it. Consistent falsification of all such pathways would accumulate against Darwinism as a whole. But to falsify all possible paths is a big ask indeed! That’s like asking me to falsify the statement that a particular star got into position via Newtonian laws. I am sure it did – but I could not describe a way to falsify the statement for that particular planet unless I disprove Newtonian mechanics as a whole. I could falsify one particular route – but not all possible routes. But what you want is: specific mechanisms for all of these changes in terms of particular point mutations along the genome, and related developmental changes. I want to see checkable numbers given for mutation rates, I want full lists of ecological competitors inhabiting the Ordovician ocean, I want accurate CO2 and ultra-violet levels and other relevant environmental data over the period of time in question, etc This is of course absurd. This data is simply not available over the last n hundred million years. No theory of the evolution of life is going to be able to meet this criterion. Would you care to give me any details whatsoever of how a putative designer implemented the evolution of the whale and how you would falsify that account?Mark Frank
February 24, 2009
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Adel DiBagno (#90): I’m not sure why you posted this suggestion, since you knew that it wasn’t the sort of counterexample that my challenge calls for, but anyhow ... There is a difference between saying that X didn’t in fact cause Y, and saying that X is not physically capable of causing Y. I can say that Woody Allen didn’t in fact murder Hulk Hogan by snapping his spine, because Woody Allen was having dinner with me at the time of Hulk Hogan’s death. Or I can say that Woody Allen couldn’t have murdered Hulk Hogan by snapping his spine, because Woody Allen isn’t strong enough to have done so. The two answers are not logically connected. “Couldn’t have” doesn’t logically follow from “didn’t”. Superman, for example, might also have been having dinner with me that night, but had he not been with me, he certainly could have snapped Hulk Hogan’s spine. So if I ask you the question, “Is Woody Allen strong enough to have snapped Hulk Hogan’s spine?” and you answer, “No, because he was having dinner with me at the time”, your answer is illogical and evasive. The answer you are giving here, like all “Cambrian rabbit” answers, is of this evasive type. If I ask you whether or RM plus NS are capable of turning a hippo into a whale within 10 million years, and you answer, “No, because fossils of the whale order are found long before the fossils of the earliest hippo”, you will have proved that RM and NS did not, in the actual historical event, produce whales from hippos, but you will not have proved that RM plus NS could not have produced whales from hippos. The latter is a much more crucial disproof, because there might be alternate evolutionary paths, even Darwinian paths, to whales (from, say, rodents whose fossils predate the whale fossils), but if the Darwinian mechanism itself can be shown to be far less capable than it is claimed to be, then the whole Darwinian theory is in jeopardy. Darwinism claims awesome capabilities for RM and NS, and I want to know the scientific (as opposed to metaphysical or religious) basis for this claim. I also want to know what it would take to get Darwinists to acknowledge that RM and NS don’t have such capabilities. In terms of my parallel, I want them to tell me what test result they would accept as a falsification of the hypothesis, “Woody Allen is strong enough to snap Hulk Hogan’s spine”. I maintain that if they cannot specify such a test result (e.g., Woody Allen fails to bend a coat hanger), then the claim about Woody Allen is not a scientific claim. And by a parallel line of reasoning, the claim for RM + NS would not be a scientific claim. So the challenge remains unmet: Presuming for the sake of argument that all future fossil finds are compatible with the hypothesis of common descent, what future discovery in genetics, developmental biology, ecology, physiology, biochemistry, or other relevant sciences could decisively disprove RM + NS as the *cause* of common descent?Thomas Cudworth
February 24, 2009
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