Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

An Open Challenge to Neo-Darwinists: What Would It Take to Falsify Your Theory?

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

A criticism which neo-Darwinists have frequently made of Intelligent Design is that it is not a “scientific” theory. ID, they say, explains the bacterial flagellum by saying “God [sic] made it”. However, they complain, it doesn’t say when God made it, how God made it, what material substrate God was acting on when he made it, etc. It therefore gives scientists nothing to go on, nothing to work with, nothing on which they can base experiments which could confirm or disconfirm the explanation.

In contrast, they believe, Darwinian explanations give scientists something to work on. The hypothesis that the flagellum slowly evolved, through a series of intermediate, functional steps, allows for testing. One can look for possible intermediate steps, e.g., the Type III secretory system, and confirm whether or not they exist in nature. One can study mutation rates and reproduction rates of bacteria, and calculate how many mutations have probably occurred over any given length of time, to see if enough time was available for the evolution of a flagellum, and so on. Thus, in their minds, Darwinism is a scientific theory, whereas ID is not.

It is clear that this line of argument presupposes a particular criterion for what makes an explanation scientific. To be scientific, a proposal, hypothesis or theory must be testable. We must be able to find evidence in nature that could confirm or disconfirm it.

Some ID critics narrow this down further, and say that scientific theories must be falsifiable. That is, ID cannot expect to be taken seriously as a scientific theory unless it is willing to specify a set of observations (taken directly from nature or resulting from experiments) that could prove it to be wrong.  ID must say what it would take to falsify the existence of the proposed Intelligent Designer.

Now there has been a long debate over whether falsifiability is a good criterion to apply to scientific theories. The most frequently cited champion of falsifiability is of course Karl Popper, and as everyone here knows, many philosophers of science have disputed Popper’s claims. I do not propose to enter into the arguments here. I will say only that I find falsifiability, if not an absolute requirement of any scientific theory, at least a highly desirable element in a scientific theory, and I will refer readers to Popper’s writings if they want a detailed justification of this. A brief justification, in Popper’s own words, is available on-line.

For the purpose of my challenge here, however, my own view on falsification is irrelevant.  Here I am going to agree, not out of personal conviction but purely for the sake of argument, with those neo-Darwinians who insist that scientific theories must be falsifiable. But then I am going to ask them to apply that standard to their own theory. I am going to ask them whether neo-Darwinism is itself falsifiable. I believe it is not, and that therefore, by their own criterion, it does not qualify as science.

Now I know that when this argument has been made in the past, neo-Darwinians have issued a standard answer.  They say that Darwinian evolution is easily falsifiable. All one has to do is find a Cambrian rabbit, or any other fossil that is so far out of sequence that the creature in question cannot have evolved by stepwise Darwinian means. This, however, for reasons given by others, is not an adequate answer. Many ID proponents have no problem with the notion of common descent. They have no problem with the notion that one creature has been used as the basis of a subsequent and more advanced creature. They therefore do not reject “evolution”, and they have no desire to find a Cambrian rabbit or a Jurassic monkey. What they reject is the Darwinian “chance plus natural selection” explanation of evolution. So what neo-Darwinians are being asked, when they are being asked about falsification, is not “What would falsify common descent?” It is: “What would falsify your theory that small, incremental steps, which occur due to genetic accidents, can be combined into useful new structures, up to and including the creation of entirely new functional body plans?”

This is the question that I am putting to neo-Darwinists today. What would it take to falsify your belief, for example, that land creatures are ultimately modified fish, transformed by slow, tiny and wholly fortuitous steps from gill-breathers to lung-breathers? What genetic, developmental, or other evidence would you accept as a demonstration that fish could not have become land-dwelling creatures via purely Darwinian means? What genetic, developmental or other evidence would you accept as a demonstration that the camera eye could not have developed by purely Darwinian means?

When ID people read Darwinian literature, we get the strong impression that Darwinians do not ask whether Darwinian means are capable of producing their alleged effects. They appear to be asking only how Darwinian means did so. And when one possible evolutionary pathway is shown to be impossible on scientific grounds, another pathway, always within Darwinian assumptions, is put forward to replace it. At no point, as far as we can see, do Darwinians ever say: “Well, maybe we have been wrong all along. Maybe Darwinian explanation cannot account for evolutionary change.” And so, when we read in Darwinian polemics that ID is “unscientific” because it will not commit itself to any model of the designer’s action specific enough to be falsified, we are rather irritated by the apparent double standard, because we have not seen such a falsifiable model in the Darwinist literature.

So, again, here is the challenge to neo-Darwinians: What would it take for you to concede, not just that this or that proposed evolutionary pathway is wrong, but that the entire Darwinian explanation of evolutionary change is wrong? What evidence would it take for you to concede that small, random, stepwise changes cannot produce the specific macroevolutionary effects that the fossil record appears to record? And the corollary question is: If you are unwilling to specify in advance what it would take to falsify neo-Darwinian mechanisms, are you willing, here and now, either to admit that neo-Darwinism is not a scientific theory, or to drop the requirement of falsifiability which you have laid upon ID?

Comments
Patrick Maybe I am hard on KF- but time is limited. However, it is not limited tonight so I will take deep breath and start reading KF's comment. Here's the first paragraph. Information is a fairly widely understood concept, these days: the entity known to be produced by intelligence, that can be stored in bits [even if digitalisation has to be done to get there . . . ], and which makes a performance difference to things that respond to the signals (modulations of physical and chemical etc parameters] sent that way. Care to translate for me?Mark Frank
February 23, 2009
February
02
Feb
23
23
2009
12:45 PM
12
12
45
PM
PDT
Eh? KF may be verbose but I don't see how what he's writing is hard to follow. In fact, it's nice how he breaks up his points into a point-by-point progression. Still, something can be said for clearness in communication. For example, I've long felt that Dembski's popular works would be augmented by teaming up with a writer. People might accept his ideas more readily if they're clearly communicated and understood. I've also always felt that Behe is the better writer of the two.Patrick
February 23, 2009
February
02
Feb
23
23
2009
12:41 PM
12
12
41
PM
PDT
Re #58 DNA doesn't work like what? Do you know which definition of information you are working with? If so, can you tell me? If not, why not decide? (I am sorry. There is no time to read all comments and so I don't read KF's comments. They are generally too long and hard to follow.)Mark Frank
February 23, 2009
February
02
Feb
23
23
2009
12:38 PM
12
12
38
PM
PDT
Mark, (#55) DNA doesn't work like that. Everyone knows it doesn't work like that. kairosfocus did a better job at #52 explaining the issue than I will attempt here.ellijacket
February 23, 2009
February
02
Feb
23
23
2009
12:30 PM
12
12
30
PM
PDT
bfast #52 So you accept two of my criteria for falsifying Darwinism - your only comment being that I am "playing safe". I don't know why a young earth would falsify common descent but in any case it also falsifies RM+NS - so that's irrelevant. I should have been cleared about inheritance of acquired characteristics. I meant if it were found to take place on a large scale. Then Darwinism would not be the prime driver of change as currently thought. Seems like I still have met the challenge - right?Mark Frank
February 23, 2009
February
02
Feb
23
23
2009
12:04 PM
12
12
04
PM
PDT
Re #51 Of course not - I guess I need to make things a bit clearer. I am saying that according to definition 4 of information there are many examples of information generated by natural causes, for example atmospheric pressure and temperature which are clearly a collection of facts from which conclusions may be drawn; “statistical data”. Now to come back to the point - what definition of information do you want to work with?Mark Frank
February 23, 2009
February
02
Feb
23
23
2009
11:58 AM
11
11
58
AM
PDT
Mark Frank:
In #12 I listed four things that would falsify Darwinism which were not related to common descent.
I shall respond to your list:
1) If the age of the earth turned out to actually be only a few hundred thousand years
Let me suggest that a young earth would falsify universal common descent.
2) If the inheritance mechanism turned out not to be particulate but consist only of blending.
If I understand you correctly, we know right well that the primary inheritance mechanism (there seems to be some non-DNA inheritance) is particulate. You're playing very save here.
3) If acquired characteristics were inherited (as I am sure most readers know - there is evidence that this is true to a small extent - and to that extent Darwinism is false)
This would imply lamarckan theory. However, I see no reason that the lamarckan theory and neo-Darwinism could not fully coexist. It does not seem unreasonable that, given all the other stuff attributed to neo-Darwinism, the lamarckan model could not also have evolved in the Darwinian sense.
4) If a designer made itself known and demonstrated how it created and maintained life.
Again this is a very safe play. Let me present my list of some of the things that should falsify neo-Darwinism: 1: "Intentional" redundant systems not paired with a repair system in an asexually reproducing organism. By intentional, I mean that there is specific genetic mechanism involved in the redundancy, not just that gene b, which was a mutated offspring of gene a can still do the job of gene a in a pinch. Consider that if gene b can do gene a's job as well as gene a can, then one of the two would not be missed if it abandoned its redundant role by mutating away. Consider that if gene b can do gene a's job, but not as well, and if there is no repair mechanism that gets things back to rights pretty quickly, then any organism that had a damaged gene a would be handicapped. In an asexual environment I challenge that there is no reason whatsoever that darwinism would go out of its way to make a mechanism that actively keeps a handicapped organism around. 2: Pattern in the DNA which are not explained by molecular drift, by the molecular clock. I point specifically to the candidate provided by Michael Denton of the Cytochrome C gene. It renders a "perfect" map of the phylogenic tree. Molecular drift would account for a simple map, but the fact that their is an aspect of "equidistance" within that map is not easily explained. (Please read Denton's Evolution a theory in crisis for an accurate explanation of what I am talking about) One explanation provided has been the suggestion that the actual lifetime of a cell, birth to reproduction, has not changed significantly for the entire tree. If this were so, then the molecular clock, which seems to be a rather poor timekeeper everywhere else, actually is a very good timekeeper in the cytochrome C. I personally expect that this explanation would not hold up under serious scrutiny. I see the Cytochrome C as the equivelant of a copyright notice by the designer! 3: DNA preserved but not expressed. It is possible that some DNA would be accidentally held in a preserved state because it was "caught up in another gene's shadow" or similar. But barring this, DNA which is preserved but not expressed is an oxymoron in neo-Darwinism. This problem, of course, has raised its ugly head on a number of occasions. There have been mice with huge sections of highly preserved DNA which, upon initial examination, seem none the worse for wear. There have been segments of ultra-conserved DNA which have been removed from organisms without apparent degradation. Now, I don't know that enought study has been done on these cases to confirm that there is "no meaningful degredation". However, finding such should absolutely falsify neo-Darwinism. 4: True altruism. If an organism has specific DNA which plays a beneficial role for others, and there is no pathway of the favor being returned, this, in my view, would be absolutely unworkable within the neo-Darwinian context. 5: Lack of drift. Molecular drift is supposed to occur. The molecular clock is supposed to tick. A while back a bacterium was uncovered that is believed to have been in stasus for 250 million years. It was revived. It was analyzed. To the shock of the researchers it did not show anything like the drift that was expected. The question of its true age has been tested a half dozen ways, each time showing that it was in stasus for 250 million years. This data should be perplexing to the neo-Darwinist. Without molecular drift, neo-Darwinism is wrong. I will add that this is also surprising to the IDer. The ID + neo-Darwinism crowd (of which I am one) expects that drift happens. The suggestion in this finding is that the intelligent agent is also a micromanager, that there is very little left to random chance. I have about a half-dozen other serious challenges to neo-Darwinism, but I present these for this discussion.bFast
February 23, 2009
February
02
Feb
23
23
2009
11:02 AM
11
11
02
AM
PDT
Atmospheric pressure and temperature are equivalent to DNA? You sure you want to make that statement? I don't think that would ride in Will Provine's class.ellijacket
February 23, 2009
February
02
Feb
23
23
2009
10:59 AM
10
10
59
AM
PDT
Mark: Information is a fairly widely understood concept, these days: the entity known to be produced by intelligence, that can be stored in bits [even if digitalisation has to be done to get there . . . ], and which makes a performance difference to things that respond to the signals (modulations of physical and chemical etc parameters] sent that way. It turns out to be a matter of configurations, which are otherwise improbable and which are either inherently meaningful or else take up meaning from context and conventions. As such, they can be used to respond to and make advantageous use of opportunities in an environment, or to respond to challenges in the environment. Or, slightly modifying how I recently tutored some of my students:
. . . information is data -- i.e. digital representations of raw events, facts, numbers and letters, values of variables, etc. -- that have been put together in ways suitable for storing in special data structures [strings of characters, lists, tables, "trees" etc], and for processing and output in ways that are useful [i.e. functional]. . . . Information is distinguished from [a] data: raw events, signals, states etc represented digitally, and [b] knowledge: information that has been so verified that we can reasonably be warranted, in believing it to be true. [GEM, UWI FD12A Sci Med and Tech in Society Tutorial Note 7a, Nov 2005.]
It is only when the issue of getting to large quanta of functional information by chance + necessity [to get tot he threshold of function] that we see the selectively hyperskeoptical objections and obfuscations coming out. Why? Because of the implications of huge configuration spaces and associated high contingency. Undirected, stochastic, contingency is maximally unlikely to reach the beaches of islands of life-relevant function on the gamut of our observed cosmos, for just 1,000 bits worth. And, OBSERVED life is at 600 k bits up. So OOL as well as body-plan level biodiversity (which requires 10's - 100's of mega bits of increment in functional info), is beyond the reasonable reach of undirected processes. but, such scopes of funcitonal info are routinely produced by intelligence. So, there is a trick lurking in "falsification," once we deal with a cosmos-history science. Such a science has to produce per inference to best explanation, a plausible account of the past. But, if the set of possible explanations is artificially constricted, or there is an insistence on disproof of a favoured theory, in a context where the best that can be had for any explanation is moral certainty, then a lot can be got away with. So, i think the issue is not falsification, but degree of warrant relative to what is reasonable for an account of the remote, unobserved past in light of what we do know about how things happen. And one of those things is that logical or physical possibilities are one thing, reasonable warrant that something is likely to be so is utterly another. Thus the hemming and hawing against reasonable assessments of probabilities implicated by OOL and macro-evolutionary scenarios. For, the scenarios are utterly probabilistically infeasible on the scope of our observed cosmos. (As far as I am concerned, that is already more than enough to discredit any such scenarios, as we have already a known and routine source of such information: intelligence.) So, to moral certainty [the relevant degree of proof], evolutionary materialism in general and Darwinian macro-evo have ALREADY been falsified, but attempts are being made to keep the dead man going as though nothing has happened over the past 60 years since 1948 - 53. Pardon, $ 0.02 GEM of TKIkairosfocus
February 23, 2009
February
02
Feb
23
23
2009
10:57 AM
10
10
57
AM
PDT
#48 I am sorry. I really need to know which definition of information you are using. Here are four definitions from the web. In each case I will give you my opinion as to whether DNA is information in this sense. 1)a message received and understood No. A message requires someone to be trying to communicate something. 2) knowledge acquired through study or experience or instruction Obviously No. 3) formal accusation of a crime Evne more obviously No. 4) data: a collection of facts from which conclusions may be drawn; "statistical data" Yes. But clearly such information can easily be produced by non-intelligent processes e.g. atmospheric pressure and temperature.Mark Frank
February 23, 2009
February
02
Feb
23
23
2009
10:55 AM
10
10
55
AM
PDT
Mark, So you are saying that DNA isn't information? Take out the definition you put in quotes and just go by what you yourself see in DNA. Is it information or not?ellijacket
February 23, 2009
February
02
Feb
23
23
2009
10:27 AM
10
10
27
AM
PDT
Re #43 Depends on your definition of information. The ID definition is effectively "order created by intelligence". Not surprisingly you are unlikely to find such order created without the use of intelligence.Mark Frank
February 23, 2009
February
02
Feb
23
23
2009
10:13 AM
10
10
13
AM
PDT
Sorry - throughout the post above I should have written Thomas where I wrote Tim. Apologies to both parties.Mark Frank
February 23, 2009
February
02
Feb
23
23
2009
09:54 AM
9
09
54
AM
PDT
ellijacket [43], Don't know if you saw my response at 34. I doubt you will be getting an answer any time soon.QuadFather
February 23, 2009
February
02
Feb
23
23
2009
09:53 AM
9
09
53
AM
PDT
#40 Quadfather (and indeed Tim) In #12 I listed four things that would falsify Darwinism which were not related to common descent. On rereading I am struck by the unreasonableness of Tim's response. He accepts that all four falsify Darwinism. You would think that would be the end of the challenge. But no. They are not the kind of falsification he wants. The ones I chose were too easy. He wanted "evidence relating to the creation of complex integrated systems by means of random genetic changes combined with natural selection". The first two (enough time and particulate inheritance) are required to create complex integrated systems by means of random genetic changes combined with natural selection. He asks "What would convince him that a marine worm couldn’t have turned into arthropods, molluscs, jellyfish, vertebrates, etc. without the aid of intelligently-derived information, all within a span of five or ten million years?". The introduction of intelligently-derived information is a bit of cheat. He only asked for a refutation of Darwinism - not all methods that don't require intelligence. Setting that aside if there were not enough time or inheritance were not particulate then I would be convinced that a marine worm couldn’t have turned into an arthropods via RM+NS. As far as establishing acquired characteristics were concerned he simply had no response. He dismissed the appearance of a designer on the basis that it was unlikely to happen. Sure - as Darwinism is true all falsifications are unlikely to happen. Will somebody tell me why I have not met this challenge?Mark Frank
February 23, 2009
February
02
Feb
23
23
2009
09:52 AM
9
09
52
AM
PDT
It's been a couple of hours. Not trying to rush anyone but I posted this same question the other day and received no answer. "One example of a non-intelligence creating information. Real information. Not snowflakes. Not some type of ‘order’. But information like that contained in DNA." If you are an evolutionist why do you hold to the idea that it can happen if it's never been shown to happen?ellijacket
February 23, 2009
February
02
Feb
23
23
2009
09:47 AM
9
09
47
AM
PDT
Thomas Cudworth @15 says:
I propose that Part X and Part Y and Part Z of the genome changed in precisely ways A and B and C, and that this had developmental results D and E and F, and that the new phenotype underwent selection pressures G and H and I, and here is how we can test to find out if all of those things could in fact have happened.
Even if this was done, it wouldn’t mean anything. If this particular pathway were proved false, there are billions of other theoretical possibilities. You yourself said in the original post:
What would it take for you to concede, not just that this or that proposed evolutionary pathway is wrong, but that the entire Darwinian explanation of evolutionary change is wrong?
BrianStephens
February 23, 2009
February
02
Feb
23
23
2009
08:55 AM
8
08
55
AM
PDT
bfast--Id is not falsifiable, I don’t care how loud Stephen Meyer says it will be. The ID theory that dominated the argument . . . You seem to be saying that each and every argument for design is ID Theory. The existence of God is not falsifiable. Faith in God is not falsifiable. The theory articulated by Behe and Dembski is falsifiable. The Dembski/Behe theory and God are not synonymous.tribune7
February 23, 2009
February
02
Feb
23
23
2009
08:48 AM
8
08
48
AM
PDT
bFast, Well, I would agree that the historical conclusions of ID are no more falsifiable than any OTHER historical conclusions about pre-history - not very. But whether this historical conclusion is the backbone that must be broken is the question we must answer before deciding that ID is not falsifiable. When Stephen C. Meyer says that ID could be falsified if it were demonstrated that naturalistic processes could produce functional information, he is implying that the backbone of the theory is the necessity of intelligent intervention. Scientific historical conclusions flow from there, but are not the central claim. Without this backbone of necessity, historical conclusions would be arbitrary rather than scientific, and you no longer have a scientific theory. So it depends on how you frame the theory. If you frame it as Stephen C. Meyer does, then my opinion is that ID is easily falsifiable.QuadFather
February 23, 2009
February
02
Feb
23
23
2009
08:45 AM
8
08
45
AM
PDT
bFast, Point well-taken, but I was responding directly to Seversky rather than brushing him off with qualifiers. I am sorry if this muddled the focus of this discussion, but I suppose what I wish to show is that even on a level where the pro-Darwin crowd is more comfortable, they cannot meet the challenge of showing their theory to be falsifiable. I think it is important to elucidate the fundamental difficulty in trying to falsify naturalistic common descent altogether. That includes chemical evolution and whatever else follows. As I said, I am looking more at how the variables are structured together rather than the variables themselves. And Darwinism is not structured in a way that lends itself to falsifiability. I think this is more fundamental to this topic than focusing on one particular chapter in the neo-darwinian fable. It applies to all chapters evenly.QuadFather
February 23, 2009
February
02
Feb
23
23
2009
08:26 AM
8
08
26
AM
PDT
QuadFather:
ellijacket [31], It would be so much easier to falsify ID, wouldn’t it? They need only provide ONE example. Stephen C. Meyer said in a debate with Peter Ward that he would resign the discovery institute if your challenge was met.
Id is not falsifiable, I don't care how loud Stephen Meyer says it will be. The ID theory that dominated the argument before the Discovery Institute came on the scene was the Young Earth creation theory. The theory that the earth is about 6000 years old has been blown to pieces (in my opinion.) Certainly most IDers would not give up on ID if the age of the earth, and life, was established as old to everyone's mind. Therefore, as YEC is an ID-based hypothesis, to the extent that YEC has been falsified ID has been falsified -- either that or ID is not a theory. There are many other falsifiable ID validating theories, such as CSI, IC etc. The latter are truly theories, the latter are falsifiable.bFast
February 23, 2009
February
02
Feb
23
23
2009
08:12 AM
8
08
12
AM
PDT
QuadFather:
First, I think it is important to understand that the concept that is truly in question here is Universal Common Descent:
While it is true that the pro-Darwinists are demonstrating ways that one could falsify UCD, however the challenge clearly stated:
Many ID proponents have no problem with the notion of common descent. They have no problem with the notion that one creature has been used as the basis of a subsequent and more advanced creature. They therefore do not reject “evolution”, and they have no desire to find a Cambrian rabbit or a Jurassic monkey. What they reject is the Darwinian “chance plus natural selection” explanation of evolution.
So the challenge is the falsifiability of the varacity of random (non-foresighted) events + natural selection.bFast
February 23, 2009
February
02
Feb
23
23
2009
08:04 AM
8
08
04
AM
PDT
B L Harville,
There is a simple idea in philosophy which says that if something does happen then it can happen.
This is clearly a truism. However, the neo-Darwinian position is that if something has happend then it is the only thing that does happen. This is not quite so universally true.bFast
February 23, 2009
February
02
Feb
23
23
2009
07:53 AM
7
07
53
AM
PDT
vjtorley, Ah, so it's just regular html then ... thanks! :D Now, on with the discussion!QuadFather
February 23, 2009
February
02
Feb
23
23
2009
07:51 AM
7
07
51
AM
PDT
Quadfather Here is a sentence: The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog. Type a less-than sign, a small b and a greater-than sign immediately before the sentence. Now type a less-than sign, a forward-slash, a small b and a greater-than sign immediately after the sentence. That's how you make bold type. The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog. Let's try something different. Type a less-than sign, a small i and a greater-than sign immediately before the sentence. Now type a less-than sign, a forward-slash, a small i and a greater-than sign immediately after the sentence. That's how you make italics. The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog. To make an underline, you simply type a small letter u before and after the sentence, instead of a small letter i. This is what you get: The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog. Let's try one last experiment. Type a less-than sign, the word blockquote and a greater-than sign immediately before the sentence. Now type a less-than sign, a forward-slash, the word blockquote and a greater-than sign immediately after the sentence. That's how you indent.
The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog.
One last word of advice. The forward slash is very important - if you forget it, everything that follows will be altered. Good luck!vjtorley
February 23, 2009
February
02
Feb
23
23
2009
07:35 AM
7
07
35
AM
PDT
ellijacket [31], It would be so much easier to falsify ID, wouldn't it? They need only provide ONE example. Stephen C. Meyer said in a debate with Peter Ward that he would resign the discovery institute if your challenge was met.QuadFather
February 23, 2009
February
02
Feb
23
23
2009
07:24 AM
7
07
24
AM
PDT
vjtorley, Time provides the opportunity, not the means. I think that about sums up your argument, does it not? I have made this argument many times. Even infinite probabilistic resources cannot guarantee all possible outcomes >>> In a universe without matter, matter will not interact, regardless of how many billions and trillions and zillions of years are available.QuadFather
February 23, 2009
February
02
Feb
23
23
2009
07:22 AM
7
07
22
AM
PDT
I recently began a discussion on exactly this topic, and I see nothing new here being presented by the pro-darwin crowd. First, I think it is important to understand that the concept that is truly in question here is Universal Common Descent: Seversky, 1 - You cannot show that your theory is falsifiable by presenting evidence in favor of it (duh!). 2 - There are a number of solutions to your precambrian rabbit: a) Imperfection of the fossil record: fossils are sometimes non-static >>> some soft layers, some minor seismic activity, and materials sort themselves out of place. This is the SAME explanation given for fossilized tree trunks that penetrate multiple strata. b) Re-arrange the tree of life. c) Just because the rabbit lineage did not evolve does not mean that other lineages did not. d) Just because the rabbit lineage has remained static since the precambrian does not mean it did not evolve from earlier, unpreserved forms. e) Why not go the whole way, and say that ALL modern animals are found in the precambrian? This STILL would not prove that these animals did not evolve from earlier, unpreserved forms. You see, Seversky, you give up too easily. A good scientist NEVER says, "Well, it's just TOO HARD to figure out, so I'm gonna stop trying." I've come up with a number of solutions for your theory, and I'm not even sympathetic to it. It just takes is a little elbow grease, that's all. ;-) Something else I would like to point out is that the argument for universal common descent is framed in a way that is inherently unfalsifiable. We sometimes get so caught up in working out the values of the variables of the argument, that we forget to examine how the argument is structured (this is why Phillip Johnson's skills as a logician are relevant, even though he is not a biologist). No matter how you approach it, the only way to falsify universal common descent is to show that it did NOT happen in all possible scenarios. There is no way to confirm whether we have accounted for all possible scenarios. Therefore, it is impossible to prove that universal common descent did not occur. The problem is that we are dealing with a historical theory, pre-historical in particular, we are more in the business of determining the best explanations rather that proving or disproving. This is because we do not have direct access to the past. Any conclusions we make about the past, are predicated on the assumption that presently operating forces were also at work in the past. We might be able to come to reasonable conclusions, but that is very different from proving or disproving something. In my experience, the pro-darwin crowd largely cannot grasp this distinction. By the way: Can somebody PLEASE tell me how to add formatting to my posts (bold, italic, underline)? Ever time somebody tries to tell me, their post gets formatted and I can't tell how they did it. :-pQuadFather
February 23, 2009
February
02
Feb
23
23
2009
07:16 AM
7
07
16
AM
PDT
Here's what I want to see and I've never seen it... One example of a non-intelligence creating information. Real information. Not snowflakes. Not some type of 'order'. But information like that contained in DNA. Evolutionists cannot give any examples of this ever happening. Why do they hold to the idea that it can happen?ellijacket
February 23, 2009
February
02
Feb
23
23
2009
07:14 AM
7
07
14
AM
PDT
Mark Frank
I doubt you will get a strong case against Darwinism by studying the past except by refuting common descent. The big observable consequences were common descent and enough time. They are irrefutably established.
I'm with you on common descent, but I have a simple question for you: how do you decide how much time is enough to account for the evolution of life on earth? Dawkins has coined the term "API" (argument from personal incredulity). I'd like to coin another term: "ALZ" (argument from lots of zeroes) to describe the credulity of Darwinians. It goes like this: "If I'm lucky, I might live to be 100. That's one followed by two zeroes. History goes back about ten thousand years. That's one followed by four zeroes. But the earth has been around for nearly five billion years! That's five followed by NINE zeroes! Wow! I can't even imagine a number that big! Anything could happen in that time!" To make my point more clearly, let me propose the following thought experiment. One fine morning, a famous evolutionary biologist (let's call him Dr. Tom) is sitting at table, eating his marmalade and toast, and perusing the latest copy of "Nature" magazine. The headline on the front cover is very exciting: "Revolution in Geochronology!" Turning to the article, which is co-authored by seven Nobel Prize-winning physicists and seven famous geologists, Dr. Tom is surprised to learn that according to the latest research, rates of radioactive decay were slower by orders of magnitude, back in the days when the earth was being formed. Apparently, these rates did not stabilise at their present levels until about three billion years ago. The article goes on to explain that the earth is not 4.54 billion years old, as believed until now, but more like 4.54 trillion years old. What does Dr. Tom do? Does he (a) dash off an indignant letter to the Editor of "Nature," arguing that trillions of years is much longer than the time needed for a bacterial cell to evolve from the primordial soup, or (b) run outside and do cartwheels in the street, exultantly exclaiming, "Trillions of years! Trillions! Woo-hoo! I always thought 100 million years wasn't enough, even though I never dared say as much. Now I don't need to worry about how abiogenesis could have occurred, after all!" Well, what DOES he do? You tell me.vjtorley
February 23, 2009
February
02
Feb
23
23
2009
07:02 AM
7
07
02
AM
PDT
1 2 3 4 5 6

Leave a Reply