Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

An Open Challenge to Neo-Darwinists: What Would It Take to Falsify Your Theory?

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A criticism which neo-Darwinists have frequently made of Intelligent Design is that it is not a “scientific” theory. ID, they say, explains the bacterial flagellum by saying “God [sic] made it”. However, they complain, it doesn’t say when God made it, how God made it, what material substrate God was acting on when he made it, etc. It therefore gives scientists nothing to go on, nothing to work with, nothing on which they can base experiments which could confirm or disconfirm the explanation.

In contrast, they believe, Darwinian explanations give scientists something to work on. The hypothesis that the flagellum slowly evolved, through a series of intermediate, functional steps, allows for testing. One can look for possible intermediate steps, e.g., the Type III secretory system, and confirm whether or not they exist in nature. One can study mutation rates and reproduction rates of bacteria, and calculate how many mutations have probably occurred over any given length of time, to see if enough time was available for the evolution of a flagellum, and so on. Thus, in their minds, Darwinism is a scientific theory, whereas ID is not.

It is clear that this line of argument presupposes a particular criterion for what makes an explanation scientific. To be scientific, a proposal, hypothesis or theory must be testable. We must be able to find evidence in nature that could confirm or disconfirm it.

Some ID critics narrow this down further, and say that scientific theories must be falsifiable. That is, ID cannot expect to be taken seriously as a scientific theory unless it is willing to specify a set of observations (taken directly from nature or resulting from experiments) that could prove it to be wrong.  ID must say what it would take to falsify the existence of the proposed Intelligent Designer.

Now there has been a long debate over whether falsifiability is a good criterion to apply to scientific theories. The most frequently cited champion of falsifiability is of course Karl Popper, and as everyone here knows, many philosophers of science have disputed Popper’s claims. I do not propose to enter into the arguments here. I will say only that I find falsifiability, if not an absolute requirement of any scientific theory, at least a highly desirable element in a scientific theory, and I will refer readers to Popper’s writings if they want a detailed justification of this. A brief justification, in Popper’s own words, is available on-line.

For the purpose of my challenge here, however, my own view on falsification is irrelevant.  Here I am going to agree, not out of personal conviction but purely for the sake of argument, with those neo-Darwinians who insist that scientific theories must be falsifiable. But then I am going to ask them to apply that standard to their own theory. I am going to ask them whether neo-Darwinism is itself falsifiable. I believe it is not, and that therefore, by their own criterion, it does not qualify as science.

Now I know that when this argument has been made in the past, neo-Darwinians have issued a standard answer.  They say that Darwinian evolution is easily falsifiable. All one has to do is find a Cambrian rabbit, or any other fossil that is so far out of sequence that the creature in question cannot have evolved by stepwise Darwinian means. This, however, for reasons given by others, is not an adequate answer. Many ID proponents have no problem with the notion of common descent. They have no problem with the notion that one creature has been used as the basis of a subsequent and more advanced creature. They therefore do not reject “evolution”, and they have no desire to find a Cambrian rabbit or a Jurassic monkey. What they reject is the Darwinian “chance plus natural selection” explanation of evolution. So what neo-Darwinians are being asked, when they are being asked about falsification, is not “What would falsify common descent?” It is: “What would falsify your theory that small, incremental steps, which occur due to genetic accidents, can be combined into useful new structures, up to and including the creation of entirely new functional body plans?”

This is the question that I am putting to neo-Darwinists today. What would it take to falsify your belief, for example, that land creatures are ultimately modified fish, transformed by slow, tiny and wholly fortuitous steps from gill-breathers to lung-breathers? What genetic, developmental, or other evidence would you accept as a demonstration that fish could not have become land-dwelling creatures via purely Darwinian means? What genetic, developmental or other evidence would you accept as a demonstration that the camera eye could not have developed by purely Darwinian means?

When ID people read Darwinian literature, we get the strong impression that Darwinians do not ask whether Darwinian means are capable of producing their alleged effects. They appear to be asking only how Darwinian means did so. And when one possible evolutionary pathway is shown to be impossible on scientific grounds, another pathway, always within Darwinian assumptions, is put forward to replace it. At no point, as far as we can see, do Darwinians ever say: “Well, maybe we have been wrong all along. Maybe Darwinian explanation cannot account for evolutionary change.” And so, when we read in Darwinian polemics that ID is “unscientific” because it will not commit itself to any model of the designer’s action specific enough to be falsified, we are rather irritated by the apparent double standard, because we have not seen such a falsifiable model in the Darwinist literature.

So, again, here is the challenge to neo-Darwinians: What would it take for you to concede, not just that this or that proposed evolutionary pathway is wrong, but that the entire Darwinian explanation of evolutionary change is wrong? What evidence would it take for you to concede that small, random, stepwise changes cannot produce the specific macroevolutionary effects that the fossil record appears to record? And the corollary question is: If you are unwilling to specify in advance what it would take to falsify neo-Darwinian mechanisms, are you willing, here and now, either to admit that neo-Darwinism is not a scientific theory, or to drop the requirement of falsifiability which you have laid upon ID?

Comments
B. L. Harville
There is a simple idea in philosophy which says that if something does happen then it can happen. Descent with modification does happen, therefore descent with modification can happen.
Nobody's disagreeing with you. The question is: are blind processes sufficient to account for the diversity of life we see today? Many Darwinians have a theological bee in their bonnets, so I'd like to remove the sting by telling a little story about a mischievous imp called Darwin's demon. Darwin's demon is a very active little fellow. He's been very busy on Earth during the past four billion years. Every time a major evolutionary hurdle has to be crossed, Darwin's demon picks on some hapless plant or animal and tinkers with some of its gametes. And hey presto! The next generation suddenly has all the genes it needs to cross the hurdle. No need to worry about viability of intermediate forms or structures which cannot be built up one step at a time - Darwin's demon can handle all that. And his modus operandi is so subtle that to an untrained eye, the changes in plant and animal lineages over time appear to be the result of blind processes. Darwin's demon also engineers bacterial evolution, using a dazzling variety of mechanisms at the microscopic level. Drawin's demon was particularly active four billion years ago, when he engineered the first cell, and he also guided animal evolution over a 70-million-year period leading up to the Cambrian explosion. He had a lot of cellular programming work to do back then. Recently, Darwin's demon has had a lot more spare time on his hands. Biologists have demonstrated that blind processes can generate new species of plants and animals, so Darwin's demon has decided that he might as well not bother to push populations over relatively small evolutionary barriers. "After all, if nature can do the job, then why should I bother?" he says to himself. As more and more processes are discovered by scientists, Darwin's demon has come to realize that for the past four billion years, he has been doing a lot of unnecessary work. "I could have saved myself so much effort!" he now laments. "If only I'd known about endosymbiosis, horizontal gene transfer, homeobox mutations and gene duplication! Nature could have accomplished most of what I've done!" Darwin's demon is not yet out of a job, though. "I defy any of these scientists to show me that blind processes could have duplicated my best engineering feats!" he boasts. "If they can create a computer simulation that shows how a soup of simple organic compounds can generate a cell in the space of 100 million years, or how a one-celled animal can evolve into 30 different phyla of animals over a similar length of time, without my intervention, then I will fly away into the void, and never return to Earth!" Darwin's demon is a joke, of course, but I'm sure you see my point. Until you can make him redundant, ID remains a perfectly rational option. To effectively kill Darwin's demon, all you need is Occam's razor, and LOTS of computing time. (By the way, has anyone tried to calculate how many computer operations would be required to check out the viability of all possible chemical pathways from the simplest organic molecules to the most primitive cell? I'm just curious.) Possible comebacks by evolutionists: (1) We've already shown that Darwin's demon is redundant for explaining the emergence of new species. Sooner or later we'll explain all the rest. Reply: that's an unwarranted extrapolation. And it's a bad one: as the first five pages of Alex Williams' article, "Astonishing complexity of DNA demolishes neo-Darwinism" shows (see http://creationontheweb.com/images/pdfs/tj/j21_3/j21_3_111-117.pdf and see http://creationontheweb.com/content/view/5174/ for a follow-up), the sophistication of the programming encoded in our DNA looks more and more impressive, the more closely we investigate the cell. It's far ahead of anything the world's best computer scientists could have come up with. The "God of the gaps" (or should I say, "demon of the gaps"?) argument just won't work here: the gaps are growing, not shrinking. (2) We don't know exactly how gravity works, or how continents drift, but we don't go positing the existence of demons that push the continents, or that make apples fall to earth. Why make an exception for Darwin's demon? Reply: these are not parallel cases, because the processes in question can be currently observed. Apples fall from trees every day. The movement of the continents has been measured, and if we extrapolate back 200 million years at present rates of movement, we can see that all the continents must have once been together. Evolution from one species into another has been observed; the evolution of a new phylum or of a cell from inanimate matter has not. (3) We don't have enough computer resources to simulate the evolution of the first cell. You've set the bar so high that scientists will never be able to clear it. Reply: if that's true, then that's too bad for them. But is it true? What about quantum computing? Anyway, materialists keep telling us that the universe is infinite. So why can't they tap into its infinite computing resources, if they're so smart?vjtorley
February 23, 2009
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Jerry, First, considering that one of your main arguments on this board is that there is no evidence for macroevolution, perhaps you should consider learning enough about endosymbiosis to make a comment.If I was challenging one of the fundamental tenets of a science, I would know the arguments of my opponents backwards and forwards. Lynn Margulis has written multiple books about symbiosis in evolution, and one of them would be a nice place to start. but the evidence is summarized nicely on Allen's site. Second, I posted before on my objections to Hunter's site, but my comments somehow didn't make it. Briefly, he makes a fundamental error in stating that organelles arose from symbiosis of two prokaryotes, when it was from a prok and an archaea. The rest of the post is devoted to how confused biologists are about the evolutionary relationships of arch, prok and euk (which is a weak argument anyway), but if he had not made this error he would know that the strongest evidence supports the fusion of arch-prok to make euk. THird, you can regress as far back as you want w the source of information, the point remains that endosymbioisis is a example of macroevolution, for which you claim there is no evidence.Khan
February 23, 2009
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B.L. Harville @ 23 wrote: "There is a simple idea in philosophy which says that if something does happen then it can happen. Descent with modification does happen, therefore descent with modification can happen." That is the logical fallacy of questionable cause. It presents a causal relationship for which no real evidence exists. Try again.Barb
February 23, 2009
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The most prominent, "falsifiable" prediction of RM&NS was the "long, slow" process of evolution. I asked the other day, how long does it take evolution to create all the major body plans we see to day? The answer is that 3.7 billion years is long enough. When asked for a lower limit, they fell silent. Why? Because it doesn't matter how much time it takes; what time you have must be sufficient. The irony here is that Darwin himself felt that 100 million years was far too little time for his own theory to work, but that is exactly what the evidence of the Cambrian Explosion shows: that it apparently only takes 10-80 million years for RM&NS to do all the heavy macro-evolutionary lifting. RM&NS as the driver for epochal evolution was "falsified" by the burgess shale. RM&NS is, IMO, no more responsible for "macroevolution" than an accumulation of yearly seasonal variations in the temperature and weather are responsible for the cycle of ice ages.William J. Murray
February 23, 2009
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After countless conversations with Darwinists, I've come to the conclusion that it is virtually impossible to get them to understand what ID supporters are actually criticizing and "doubting" when it comes to modern evolutionary theory. It's not so much a question of falsification; it's a question of support in the first place. When I ask, "Can you direct me to any empirical evidence that RM&NS can, over the course of millions of years generate a novel, functioning organ like the eye, or a limb/ability feature like winged flight? There is of course no such empirical evidence. When asked to be directed to any statistical study or simulation based on realistic parameters that shows it is even possible, they again fall silent. There is no such evidence. Yes, there is evidence for common descent; there is evidence that RM&NS can slightly modify existing forms. That is not the question. Historical evolution - epochal evolution - is only a speculative extrapolation that has never been shown to even be able to produce what it is taught as scientific fact to have produced. That is pure ideology masquerading as science.William J. Murray
February 23, 2009
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khan, I never said that endosymbiosis was not macro evolution. I said I did not know enough about it to make a comment. I also said that Hunter questioned it as true and that someone should look at it to see what was known or not known. I have not argued that things like HGT don't exist and are not a source for new capabilities for an organism. But given that, such a thing as endosymbiosis or HGT are not sources for new information. They are transfers of information. After the transfer, the genetic elements may take on new functions and I accept this and understand this. I just do not have enough information to question it or support it. But one always has to find where the original information came from. So your lame attempt at a gotcha was explained to you before but yet you persist with what is irrelevant. Two points are: 1. You claim Hunter's account is rife with factual and logical mistakes. I suggest you contact him because he is using his website as a work in progress so you could be of help to him on this subject. You are also welcome to voice all your criticisms here so we can see them. You can be the resident expert on endosymbiosis. 2. The issue of macro evolution is over the development of new information and new systems and not the transfer of information or morphological changes which indeed may be cause by as little as a SNP. So I suggest you read what is said and not put your own interpretation on it to suit yourself. The failure to address the point under contention is an admission that the point is valid. The fact that you rather than not deal with us on the issues we raise is again a way of helping us and we thank you for your silent support.jerry
February 23, 2009
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To GilDodgen Why does Euler's formula imply an intelligent designer? Any formal logical system will contain some values that are 'special' or 'fundamental'. Please show your working, the lack of math on this site is beginning to trouble me.GSV
February 23, 2009
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In #15 Mark Frank has shown a clear understanding of my challenge. However, except for the interesting case of acquired characteristics, which may prove important in coming years, he has made it too easy on himself, conveniently choosing two scientific objections that Darwinism long ago successfully met, Thanks for agreeing that I understood the challenge. You might point this out to bfast #18. Yes Darwinism met those challenges decades ago. But they are very relevant. They were important objections and at the time the majority of scientific opinion was that they were true. Darwinism required they would turn out to be false and they were. What might happen in the future? It is hard to think of big single things - the major ground work is done. If we find a planet behaving oddly now we don' throw out Newton/Einstein. We assume there is something strange going on with the planet. It would take a gradual accumulation of oddities to overthrow such a well-established theory. I suppose a revelation about the mechanism of inheritance might do it - acquired characteristics is the best candidate. You should also bear in mind that evolutionary theory is being modified all the time in the light of experimental data. Darwinism is a very broad term. Some events would count against much of evolutionary theory without being complete refutations by themselves. Suppose for example a complete Eukaryotic cell evolved in a petri dish in hours from a bacterial culture. This is something that would cause a scientific sensation and would be strong evidence that there is more to evolution than trial and error. But the initial, rational, reaction before throwing out Darwinism would to (a) doubt the experiment - did something get into the culture (b) try to repeat it and understand what happened. I doubt you will get a strong case against Darwinism by studying the past except by refuting common descent. The big observable consequences were common descent and enough time. They are irrefutably established. The details of how did we get from (A) to (B) at a molecular level are going to regarded as conundrums to be solved not refutations. That's entirely reasonable - given the track record of being able to find plausible solutions to many of these condundrums and the observed existence of the mechanisms needed to solve them (mutation, microevolution, inheritance etc).Mark Frank
February 22, 2009
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The “vast amount of evidence” supports descent with modification from one or several common ancestors beginning hundreds of millions or billions of years ago. ID doesn’t dispute this. The mechanism that caused the modification is what ID disputes.
There is a simple idea in philosophy which says that if something does happen then it can happen. Descent with modification does happen, therefore descent with modification can happen. As for mechanisms, the main mechanisms are well known and have been observed by biologists numerous times: mutations, sexual recombination of genes, natural selection and genetic drift. There are some new-fangled ideas like horizontal transfer of genes by retrovirus too. I'm not a biologist myself so please forgive me if I have left things out or over-simplified.B L Harville
February 22, 2009
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From post:
Some ID critics narrow this down further, and say that scientific theories must be falsifiable. That is, ID cannot expect to be taken seriously as a scientific theory unless it is willing to specify a set of observations (taken directly from nature or resulting from experiments) that could prove it to be wrong. ID must say what it would take to falsify the existence of the proposed Intelligent Designer.
DaveScot:
That’s a logical impossibility. You can never falsify the existence of something....
This is why ID is not a theory, it is a meta-theory, a philosophy, something. There are a bunch of specific, falsifiable, theories within ID, however, such as IC, CSI, Haldane's dilemma etc.bFast
February 22, 2009
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Seversky The "vast amount of evidence" supports descent with modification from one or several common ancestors beginning hundreds of millions or billions of years ago. ID doesn't dispute this. The mechanism that caused the modification is what ID disputes. Please write that down.DaveScot
February 22, 2009
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"ID must say what it would take to falsify the existence of the proposed Intelligent Designer." That's a logical impossibility. You can never falsify the existence of something. There will always remain the possibility that the search for the thing missed a place or that a place was searched but the thing was overlooked. You can't even falsify the assertion that something was designed as it may have been designed and only appears to be not designed. Fortunately science doesn't require strict falsification of things like this. All that needs to be done is show that design is unnecessary! Occam's Razor then comes into play and we throw out unnecessary factors. To falsify an instance of design we just need to demonstrate a plausible non-design means of instantiation for the thing in question.DaveScot
February 22, 2009
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Seversky:
Your problem is that a great weight of evidence has already been amassed in support of evolution. Overturning that is going to require something as dramatic as finding human fossils from the same period as the dinosaurs, for example.
What? Please help me. Is this an example of a senior moment, evidence of not even having read the original post, or some kind of heretofore unidentified cerebral shortcircuit? I'm like Phil Johnson who stated that he would never answer a question about "evolution," because it's such a vague term. Yes, living things have changed over time. Yes, they have many things in common. And yes, with sufficient imagination and speculation one can find "evidence" of gradualism in the fossil record, but this is astronomically overwhelmed by evidence of profound and consistent discontinuity in the record. The challenge of falsifiabilty concerns the proposed mechanism and the proposed step-by-tiny-step functionally continuous search space, as well as the probabilistic resources. Can finch beak variation and antibiotic resistance be extrapolated to explain the complex information-processing machinery of the cell, and everything else about all living systems? That is the challenge, and Darwinists always evade it with obfuscation, because they know it's a Himalayan evidential, logical, mathematical, statistical, and probabilistic dung heap. The following may appear off-topic, but it is not: Type or copy e^(i*pi)+1 = 0 into Google, and click on the first link. This is Euler's famous identity. e is an irrational number generated by (1/0! + 1/1! + 1/2! + 1/3!...) and is the famous Euler number that appears everywhere in mathematics. i is the square root of -1 (the imaginary number). pi is the ratio of the circumference of a circle to its diameter and is also an irrational number. This equation combines all of the most essential numbers in mathematics into a beautiful identity. What do i, pi, e, 1 and 0 have to do with each other? i is a totally abstract concept, pi has to do with geometry, e is the basis of the natural logarithm, and e^x is its own derivative. 1 and 0 represent the basis of Boolean logic. Those who deny that there is intelligence and design behind all of this do so at their own peril, in my opinion, and without excuse.GilDodgen
February 22, 2009
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Seversky, B L Harville, Mark Frank, PLEASE READ THE ARTICLE BEFORE RESPONDING YOUR DRIVEL! The article clearly states, show a way of falsifying neo-Darwinism (the mechanism of random variation + natural selection in all of its variety HGT, etc.) without falsifying common descent. As many IDers accept common descent, this is only reasonable. You can start by explaining how a gene that has been established to be fully evolved (not changing species to species) suddenly took on 18 non-contiguous point mutations -- namely the HAR1F gene. I believe that because it is such a tight environment, consisting of a single chain of about 115 nucleotides, it is a better challenge than the flagellum which involves more like 100,000 nucleotides.bFast
February 22, 2009
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I was going to propose that evidence of front-loaded software that, say, rapidly searches protein space were found, evolution would be falsified. But then, of course, the evolutionists would simply say that the software itself evolved.WeaselSpotting
February 22, 2009
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Ah the old Cambrian rabbit, horse etc. argument. We all know very well what would happen if any of that were found in the Cambrian or any where else they're not supposed to be according the Darwin - just reclassify the strata. "It's not Cambrian at all!", they will say. And then quicker than you can say "hell" they'll have mended the problem by reclassifying it. Sound familiar? It should. That's exactly the way humanists (and politicians) reclassifed things that everyone used to know were wrong - change the name, change the terms of reference. Then get some deceptive marketing strategy (like the 'boiled frog" strategy that the 'gay' marketeers did) and suddenly there is no rabbit in the Cambrian because it isn't Cambrian anymore. In real life this is exactly what is done. The theory defines the strata so you can't falsify it.Borne
February 22, 2009
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Seversky’s mention of Tiktaalik shows that he has not grasped the challenge. He should read the fourth-last paragraph carefully. The debate over whether or not evolution occurred is not the one I am raising. The debate I wish to have is over the claim that Darwinian mechanisms, all of which are non-intelligent, are sufficient to bring about the necessary changes to explain all the forms of living things on the planet. I am asking how we are supposed to test the efficacy of those mechanisms to bring about their alleged results. All the tests which Darwinists have proposed so far, e.g., predictions of intermediate fossils such as Tiktaalik, are tests for common ancestry, not for the Darwinian mechanism. But what mechanism produced Tiktaalik from its supposed ancestors? What mechanism produced Tiktaalik’s supposed descendants from itself? How does Seversky propose testing the hypothesis “Tiktaalik evolved from an earlier fish by means of random mutations plus natural selection”? What Seversky hasn’t grasped is that he needs to supply more than a sketchy morphological pathway for Tiktaalik’s line; he needs a working, nuts-and-bolts model of the genomic changes, developmental adjustments, etc. – a model that does not just sound good on paper but can be tested, as in: “I propose that Part X and Part Y and Part Z of the genome changed in precisely ways A and B and C, and that this had developmental results D and E and F, and that the new phenotype underwent selection pressures G and H and I, and here is how we can test to find out if all of those things could in fact have happened.” No Darwinist proposal, to my knowledge, ever achieves this level of specificity, and therefore no Darwinist explanation can ever be falsified. Mark Frank has shown a clear understanding of my challenge. However, except for the interesting case of acquired characteristics, which may prove important in coming years, he has made it too easy on himself, conveniently choosing two scientific objections that Darwinism long ago successfully met, and one unlikely future revelation which ID people do not expect and which in any case would not be merely scientific data and therefore is not to the point here. He has not specified possible falsifying evidence relating to the creation of complex integrated systems by means of random genetic changes combined with natural selection. What would convince him that a marine worm couldn’t have turned into arthropods, molluscs, jellyfish, vertebrates, etc. without the aid of intelligently-derived information, all within a span of five or ten million years? What genetic or developmental evidence would kill that as a realistic possibility? If there is no such evidence, if ANYTHING we discover from now on about genomes and development is compatible with the Cambrian explosion, then Darwinism is not a falsifiable theory.Thomas Cudworth
February 22, 2009
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At last, we have a post that will allow Darwinsts to show their stuff. With what fervor they come here seeking to critique the ID paradigm without even bothering to learn its language, precepts, and principles. With what persistence they demand an accounting of us fro what we believe, even as they remain perpetually unaccountable for what they themselves believe. How convenient it must be to always be scrutinizing and to never be scrutinized. Well, this is their hour. It is time for the ID critics to fill the cyberspace with their brilliance. Come back professor Olofsson, you who find every mathematical flaw real and imaginary with the ID synthesis. Show us how your precious model of neo-Darwinism stands up to the same test of mathematical rigor that you demand of us. Come back Allen MacNeill and take us on the intellectual jog from “goo” to “zoo” to “you.” Even a sequence or two of steps will go a long way toward resolving the mystery. Stand up and be counted Mark Frank, JayM, Rob, JT, Seversky, and all other Darwinist attack dogs. You have been on offense for so long, you seen to have forgotten how to play defense. Give it your best shot. Tell us how small incremental changes based on chance variations and natural selection can generate the kind of information found in a DNA molecule. I, for one, will set the bar hospitably low. Forget about facts, as if you didn’t already, just provide us with a fantasy model that could do the job. You don’t even have to explain how the raw materials arrived, though true intellectual integrity would demand as much. Just tell us how the raw materials could organize themselves in such as way as to produce human intelligence. Just to show you what a sport I am, I’ll even spot you an extra 10,000,000,000 years or so. How’s that for liberal hospitality? Oh yes, I almost forgot. Don't send us to a website. If the Darwinist propoganda machine has persuaded you that clanging molecules can generate intelligence, or that mind can come from matter, summarize that argument and present it in abbreviated and comprehensible form. If you will discipline yourself to go through that exercise, you will immediately discover that, in spite of your loyalty to and faith in a failed belief system, you really have no argument to present.StephenB
February 22, 2009
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Tim @ 5
I guess I am just slow about this whole scientific thing. Seversky, could you tell me what you mean by “amassed in support of evolution” and how that was done scientifically?
The evidence is all out there for someone who really wants to find it. A good place to start for the non-scientist would be the Talk.Origins Archive. And to paraphrase a question from another post: how many Tiktaaliks would it take to persuade you that the theory of evolution was good - or is there nothing that could do that?
I may be slow at science, but I know what Pauli meant when he said “. . . not even false.” Ironic to see that I can now apparently heap that onto “not even falsifiable.” You see, Seversky, we are quite far from conceding the theory’s explanatory power if in an important sense we barely consider it a theory. But, I am no scientist . . . Pauli was, though, I wonder what he’d say . . .
Pauli was a physicist not a biologist, although he developed an interest in evolution later in his career. In particular, he had doubts about the ability of chance mutations to account for the changes that are observed. As far as I know, though, he did not doubt that evolution had occurred. I also suspect that, given his sharp wit and tongue, he would have given short shrift to any biologist that trespassed on his turf of particle physics.Seversky
February 22, 2009
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Things that would falsify Darwinism: 1) If the age of the earth turned out to actually be only a few hundred thousand years 2) If the inheritance mechanism turned out not to be particulate but consist only of blending. 3) If acquired characteristics were inherited (as I am sure most readers know - there is evidence that this is true to a small extent - and to that extent Darwinism is false) 4) If a designer made itself known and demonstrated how it created and maintained life. Of course there are zillions of things that would falsify common descent - but you explicitly ruled that out.Mark Frank
February 22, 2009
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Also - please feel free to add to the listGreen
February 22, 2009
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I am sure that “if or when” a bunny is found in the Pre-Cambrian (”if or when” it makes little difference to the argument), some disciple of Gould and/or Eldgridge will have a double-pumped-inverto-plastico-hyper-punctuated-model to ADD to the theory of evolution. ...it is how evolutionary theory has made it thus far So true. Let's see how many epicyclic modifications of the theory there have been so far: 1) Kin selection (to explain apparent altruism among kin) 2) Group selection (to explain apparent alruism among unrelated members of the same species) 3) Sexual selection* (to explain traits that are detrimental to it's bearer) 4) Cooperative games (a branch of game theory) to explain homosexuality 5) Punc Eq. to explain/describe the fossil record * N.b. And incidentally, even within sexual selection there are 3 different theories: Rice and Holland's Sexual Conflict theory, Fisher's runaway model and Zahavi's good genes model; all to explain different traits. Looks kinda suspect to me. Desperate attempts to save the theory perhaps?Green
February 22, 2009
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jerry once again you claim there is no evidence for macroevolution and curiously forget endosymbiosis. it has been pointed out to you numerous times (including in Allen's post) and yet ou never address it, other than to say that some people (like Cornelius Hunter, whose post is rife with both factual and logical mistakes) still don't believe it. are you ever going to explain why you do not accept the evidence for endosymbiosis, and/or why you do not think it is macroevolution?Khan
February 22, 2009
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I am sorry I left out B L Harville who also shows his ignorance and thus helps our cause. When will an anti ID person make a coherent comment. We are waiting.jerry
February 22, 2009
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Seversky is one of the anti ID people who roam here spewing out nonsense and then says QED and doesn't understand anything about the argument or repeats bogus opinions. There is no amassed evidence for macro evolution. It is all for micro evolution for which we agree. ID does not want to over turn NDE, it just wants to expand it to consider other options that are not as self limiting as those currently practiced by many of its adherents. Just the other day we asked for evidence of macro evolution from a evolutionary biologist and got back micro evolution. So obviously the lack of empirical information in this area is lacking, just what we have been saying for a long time. Thank you Seversky for helping ID by exhibiting that you do not know anything. You continue to contribute to our position.jerry
February 22, 2009
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With the amount of evidence that supports evolution, falsifying it at this point would be like trying to falsify atomic theory. I suppose it might be possible somehow but I don't know how you'd do it and I wouldn't waste my time trying. Furthermore, falsifying evolution wouldn't prove ID. To do that I think you'd have to catch one of the intelligent designers in the act.B L Harville
February 22, 2009
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I guess I am just slow about this whole scientific thing. Seversky, could you tell me what you mean by "amassed in support of evolution" and how that was done scientifically? The question posed was one of "falsifiability" was it not? The construct of evolution is so unscientifically promoted that I must stifle a Pauli sneer at every new instance of an "evidence" of evolution. "Amassing support" seems more like the modus operandi of a fearful villager outside of Frankenstein's castle than that of a diligent scientist. I am sure that "if or when" a bunny is found in the Pre-Cambrian ("if or when" it makes little difference to the argument), some disciple of Gould and/or Eldgridge will have a double-pumped-inverto-plastico-hyper-punctuated-model to ADD to the theory of evolution. And that is really the point, isn't it? Evolution will never be overthrown, will it, Darbots. But it is not because of the amassed evidence, but because of the amassed inferences, theories, hypotheses, and then conjectures, stories, hyperboles, illuminating lies, etc . . . How can I be so sure of this. Well, it is how evolutionary theory has made it thus far. I may be slow at science, but I know what Pauli meant when he said ". . . not even false." Ironic to see that I can now apparently heap that onto "not even falsifiable." You see, Seversky, we are quite far from conceding the theory's explanatory power if in an important sense we barely consider it a theory. But, I am no scientist . . . Pauli was, though, I wonder what he'd say . . .Tim
February 22, 2009
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Oh, yes, you did - although J B S Haldane said it first, I believe. Your problem is that a great weight of evidence has already been amassed in support of evolution. Overturning that is going to require something as dramatic as finding human fossils from the same period as the dinosaurs, for example. If the evidence in favor of evolution continues to accumulate then, at some point, the question becomes: just how much evidence is it going to take before you concede that the theory is actually the better explanation? Or are you saying that there is nothing that will persuade you?Seversky
February 22, 2009
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Sometimes this debate reminds me of a war where the two sides are firing artillery at each other or sending in snipers hoping that they will weaken the other or even defeat them. IDers have a lot of common ground with neo-Darwinists. Why don't we start peace talks and work out the points that we agree on rather than issuing challenges?alaninnont
February 22, 2009
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Fossil rabbits in the Pre-Cambrian - or did someone already say that?Seversky
February 22, 2009
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