Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

An open letter to BSU President Jo Ann Gora

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Dear President Gora,

As an intelligent design advocate (Web page here) who contributes regularly to the ID Website Uncommon Descent, I would like to thank you for your recent statement to the faculty and staff of Ball State University, which clarifies your university’s official position regarding the teaching of intelligent design theory.

I hope you will not object if I ask you a few questions which your own faculty staff might want to pose to you, in future meetings.

Question 1

You referred to “intelligent design” in your email to Ball State University faculty and staff, without saying what you meant by the term. So I’d like to ask: exactly how do you define “intelligent design”? Specifically: does it include the cosmological fine-tuning argument, which purports to show that the the laws and constants of Nature were designed by some intelligent being? Does it include the scientific theory proposed by physicist Silas Beane (see here and here) that the universe we live in is a giant computer simulation? (The same idea was proposed back in 2003 in an influential paper by the Oxford philosopher Nick Bostrom.) Does it include the theory that life on Earth was seeded by aliens, at some point in the past (never mind where they came from)? Does it include the evolutionary theory championed by Alfred Russel Wallace, who fully accepted evolution by natural selection as a fact which explained the diversity of living things, but who also believed on empirical grounds that unguided natural processes were, by themselves, unable to account for: (a) the origin of life; (b) the appearance of sentience in animals; and (c) the emergence of human intelligence?

Would a science lecturer at your university get into trouble for discussing these theories in a science classroom? Where do you draw the line, President Gora? What’s “in” and what’s “out,” at your university?

The reason why I ask is that the official definition of intelligent design at the Intelligent Design Website Uncommon Descent, on a Webpage entitled ID Defined, is quite broad:

The theory of intelligent design (ID) holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause rather than an undirected process such as natural selection. ID is thus a scientific disagreement with the core claim of evolutionary theory that the apparent design of living systems is an illusion.

In a broader sense, Intelligent Design is simply the science of design detection — how to recognize patterns arranged by an intelligent cause for a purpose.

If you construe “intelligent design” more narrowly, could you please tell us what you mean by the term?

Question 2

Would you agree that the discussion of a bad scientific theory – even one whose claims has been soundly refuted by scientific testing, such as aether theories in physics, the phlogiston theory in chemistry, and vitalism in biology – can be productive and genuinely illuminating, in a university science classroom? The history of science, after all, is littered with dead ends and blind alleys, and scientists have learned a lot about the world – and about how to do science properly – from their past mistakes. Would you therefore agree, then, that even if the theory of intelligent design were found to be riddled with factual or theoretical flaws on a scientific level, that would not be a sufficient reason by itself to keep discussion of intelligent design out of the science classroom?

Question 3

If you answered “Yes” to question 2, as I expect you did, then I shall assume that for you, the decisive reason for keeping intelligent design out of the science classroom is that it is essentially religious in nature. As you wrote in your email: “Teaching religious ideas in a science course is clearly not appropriate.”

I would now invite you to consider the following two quotes by the late Sir Fred Hoyle, FRS, an outspoken opponent of religion and a life-long atheist, as Jane Gregory notes in her biography, Fred Hoyle’s Universe (Oxford University Press, 2005, ISBN 0 780198 507918, p. 143), and to indicate: (i) whether you think they are religious claims, and (ii) whether you think a discussion of their scientific merits belongs in a science classroom at your university.

A common sense interpretation of the facts suggests that a superintellect has monkeyed with physics, as well as with chemistry and biology, and that there are no blind forces worth speaking about in nature. The numbers one calculates from the facts seem to me so overwhelming as to put this conclusion almost beyond question.
(The Universe: Past and Present Reflections, Engineering and Science, November 1981, p. 12.)

If one proceeds directly and straightforwardly in this matter, without being deflected by a fear of incurring the wrath of scientific opinion, one arrives at the conclusion that biomaterials with their amazing measure or order must be the outcome of intelligent design. No other possibility I have been able to think of in pondering this issue over quite a long time seems to me to have anything like as high a possibility of being true.
(Hoyle, Fred, Evolution from Space, Omni Lecture, Royal Institution, London, 12 January 1982; Evolution from Space (1982) pp. 27–28 ISBN 0-89490-083-8; Evolution from Space: A Theory of Cosmic Creationism (1984) ISBN 0-671-49263-2)

I am of course well aware of the scientific literature relating to “Hoyle’s fallacy”, which Professor Richard Dawkins has taken great pains to refute. (Biologist Stephen Jones’ article, Fred Hoyle about the 747, the tornado and the junkyard, contains a very fair-minded discussion of the relevant issues, for those who are interested.) The point I’m making here is that if Hoyle’s claims are scientifically refutable, as neo-Darwinian biologists assert, then surely a discussion of the flaws in those claims belongs in a university science classroom. But since Hoyle referred to his own theory as “intelligent design,” it follows that a discussion of the flaws in intelligent design belongs in a university science classroom.

Now I hope you can see where I’m heading with this line of inquiry. If the discussion of the flaws in intelligent design theory belongs in a university science classroom, it logically follows that discussion of the theory itself belongs in a university science classroom. But that contradicts your email, which states that “[d]iscussions of intelligent design and creation science can have their place at Ball State in humanities or social science courses,” clearly implying that a discussion of intelligent design has no place in a science classroom. Elsewhere in your email, you state that “intelligent design is not appropriate content for science courses,” which once again implies that any discussion of intelligent design is off-bounds at a Ball State University science course.

Indeed, a consistent application of your injunction to faculty staff to keep intelligent design out of the science classroom would mean that any science professor who gave a lecture exposing the errors in intelligent design theory would be in violation of your university’s official policy. Is that correct, President Gora?

Question 4

In your email, you state that “Intelligent design is overwhelmingly deemed by the scientific community as a religious belief and not a scientific theory.” I’m sure you can cite court decisions to back up that assertion of yours – notably the Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District court case of 2005.

I wonder if you have heard of the late Professor Richard Smalley (1943-2005), winner of the 1996 Nobel Prize in Chemistry. In a letter sent to the Hope College Alumni Banquet where he was awarded a Distinguished Alumni Award in May 2005, Dr. Richard Smalley wrote:

Recently I have gone back to church regularly with a new focus to understand as best I can what it is that makes Christianity so vital and powerful in the lives of billions of people today, even though almost 2000 years have passed since the death and resurrection of Christ.

Although I suspect I will never fully understand, I now think the answer is very simple: it’s true. God did create the universe about 13.7 billion years ago, and of necessity has involved Himself with His creation ever since. The purpose of this universe is something that only God knows for sure, but it is increasingly clear to modern science that the universe was exquisitely fine-tuned to enable human life. We are somehow critically involved in His purpose. Our job is to sense that purpose as best we can, love one another, and help Him get that job done. (Emphases mine – VJT.)

Towards the end of his life, Dr. Richard Smalley became an Old Earth creationist, after reading the books “Origins of Life” and “Who Was Adam?”, written by Dr. Hugh Ross (an astrophysicist) and Dr. Fazale Rana (a biochemist). Dr. Smalley explained his change of heart as follows:

Evolution has just been dealt its death blow. After reading “Origins of Life”, with my background in chemistry and physics, it is clear evolution could not have occurred. The new book, “Who Was Adam?”, is the silver bullet that puts the evolutionary model to death. (Emphasis mine – VJT.)

I’m quite sure you will tell me that most biologists and chemists disagree with the late Nobel Prize Laureate, Dr. Richard Smalley, on whether the neo-Darwinian theory of evolution can account for the origin and diversity of life. Be that as it may, what interests me is that Dr. Smalley evidently felt that the question of whether life and the universe were intelligently designed was scientifically tractable. What’s more, he felt that science had already found the answer: “it is increasingly clear to modern science that the universe was exquisitely fine-tuned to enable human life.” That’s intelligent design.

So my question to you is: if a Nobel Prize winner in chemistry thought that intelligent design belongs in the category of “science”, what makes you so sure that it belongs in the category of religion? For that matter, was the late Sir Fred Hoyle, FRS, being religious when he argued on scientific grounds that “superintellect has monkeyed with physics, as well as with chemistry and biology”? Is that what you are saying?

Finally, I note that you remark in your email that “the scientific community has overwhelmingly rejected intelligent design as a scientific theory” (italics mine – VJT). However, the scientific community’s very rejection intelligent design as a scientific theory logically implies that it is a scientific theory – even if a bad one. Are you prepared to grant this point?

Question 5

In your email, you state:

Discussions of intelligent design and creation science can have their place at Ball State in humanities or social science courses. However, even in such contexts, faculty must avoid endorsing one point of view over others.

I’d now like you to consider the hypothetical case of a humanities or social science lecturer at your university who is asked a very direct, personal question by a student: “Do you believe in intelligent design?” Let’s suppose that the lecturer answers like this:

Personally, I do. I should point out in all fairness that the vast majority of scientists currently reject intelligent design, and if you want to know why, then I’d invite you to have a look at the official statements on the Websites of the National Academy of Sciences, the American Association for the Advancement of Science, the American Astronomical Society, and the American Physical Society. I’ve spent some time sifting the arguments on both sides. I’m not a trained scientist; but I do have some (philosophical) training in spotting a bad argument. In my humble opinion, the scientific arguments against intelligent design are not very convincing; at most, they merely refute some of the more naive versions of intelligent design. Regarding the arguments in favor of intelligent design, I do think they raise some very real questions which science has not yet answered. Now you might say that some day it will answer those questions. And maybe you’re right. My own opinion – and I’d invite you to read the best books on both sides in order to arrive at yours – is that we already have enough information at our fingertips to conclude that most likely, the Universe itself – and life – was a put-up job. Who or what the “Putter-Upper” is, I leave for you to speculate, if you agree with my line of thinking.

In answering in this way, has the lecturer said anything that is “out of line” with your university’s policy on the separation of church and state? It should be noted that up to this point, the lecturer has not even expressed a belief in theism, let alone the tenets of any particular religion. Saying that the universe was designed (passive voice) says nothing, by itself, about the identity of the Designer.

Now suppose that the inquisitive student presses further: “Do you believe the Designer of life and the universe to be God?” and the lecturer answers, “Yes, that is my personal belief.” Does that answer qualify as “endorsing one point of view over others” – something which your email expressly prohibits? If not, why not?

What if, instead, the lecturer had answered the student’s question as follows: “I’m an atheist, and I think intelligent design is a load of pseudo-scientific religious claptrap.” Would such an answer constitute “endorsing one point of view over others”? If not, why not?

Well, I think five questions are quite enough for one day. Over to you, President Gora. Thank you taking the time and trouble to read this letter.

Yours sincerely,

Vincent Torley

Comments
DonaldM @ 49
CLAVDIVS: The problem is, the explanation “intelligently caused”, with qualification, is reliably true of all objects and events, because it can’t not be true – it’s so broad in power and scope it can explain anything. Accordingly it is trivial and unscientific. DonaldM: ... we also know from observation and experience that any artifact that exhibits CSI and we know its causal history, intelligence is always the cause. So, its not to big a leap to infer that if we observe CSI in a biological artifact or system, that some intelligence or other had to be the cause.
If we assume that it's true that, where we can check things out, intelligence is always the cause of CSI, it would be perfectly reasonable to infer that biological CSI has an intelligent cause. The problem is, as I have stated repeatedly, the explanation "it had an intelligent cause" is not scientifically testable. Reasonableness does not entail scientific testability. The reason for this is that one can make the claim of "intelligent cause" for any pattern, observation or state of affairs whatsoever - even contradictory ones - and the claim cannot be refuted. Triangular planetary orbits? An intelligence caused them to be that way. See how easy that is? That's the problem. To be testable the claim has to be more limited or qualified. For example, the claim "human beings made the computer in 1984" would be scientifically testable, because the claim is limited to human beings and all the historical and physical limitations that that entails, as well as focussing on a specific timeframe. The claim is not consistent with any possible observation; in fact it is consistent with only a very narrow range of observations. That's what makes it something we can check out versus reality, which is what science is all about.
That means that ID is very scientific and easily testable by the normative means of science. All you have to do, Claudius, is observe CSI in some natural system, and then provide a detailed, testable and potentially falsifiable model as to how undirected, natural causes can account for it. To date, no such scientific research study has ever been published in any peer reviewed scientific journal to explain CSI via undirected, natural causes. In effect, all such tests have are attempts at falsifying ID (thus testing it!) and it has, so far, withstood all attempts at falsification.
I already explained @ 32 why testing "undirected, natural causes" doesn't somehow make the claim "intelligent cause" scientifically testable. The primary problem is, we cannot in principle test the claim "X is not explained by any undirected, natural cause", because we are not omniscient: we can only test things we know enough about to test; we can't test what we don't know about. What is worse, we don't even know the proportion of what we do know to what we don't know. Therefore, any claim along the lines of "X is not explained by any Y" is simply not scientifically testable, because we can never know if we have tested every Y. A secondary problem with the claim "X is not explained by any undirected, natural cause" is around the term "undirected". Is it possible in principle to conduct tests to see if something is undirected? How do we disentangle the experimenter's "direction" of the experiment? What about other intelligences down the chain e.g. people who manufactured equipment used in the test: are we getting a reading from their intelligent input instead from the things we are testing? Who can tell? I don't know - you tell me, these are your tests. In sum, because the claim "X is not explained by any undirected, natural cause" can't be tested in principle, it's not a scientific explanation.
The further problem with your statement is that suppose the actual state of affairs throughout the Cosmos is that all of it really was intelligently caused. If that’s the true state of affairs, then saying it isn’t “scientific” to say so is bogus!
Not bogus at all. If everything was intelligently caused, there's no scientific test we could perform for intelligent cause, is there? Every test would come back "Intelligent cause!" That doesn't make science useless generally, it just makes it useless for that sort of metaphysical question. Science is not some kind of universal truth detector; it is limited to specific domains of applicability and specific methods, in particular, the ability to test ideas by comparing them to observations from reality. Something we can't test in that way just isn't science, however valid or true it may be.CLAVDIVS
August 3, 2013
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CLAVDIVS, while your appeal to the politics of consensus to try to establish Darwinism as scientific and to establish Intelligent Design as non-scientific may play to those who are not so fussy about evidence, that simply does not cut the mustard here as to establishing whether Darwinism is science and ID is not.,,, There is something called a demarcation criteria to separate science from pseudo-science Claude. And I hold falsifiability (testability) of a theory to be the most important demarcation criteria of a theory to judge whether it is truly science or not (Popper). (Although Imre Lakatos added some important nuances to the demarcation criteria (i.e. falsified predictions)). But for our purposes now, to show that Darwinism is in fact a pseudo-science and that ID is indeed a proper science, strict falsifiability (testability) will be sufficient to demonstrate as such. Grand Theories of science, such as GR and QM, are always been tested in ingenious ways,,
The Most Precisely Tested Theory in the History of Science – May 5, 2011 Excerpt: So, which of the two (general relativity or QED) is The Most Precisely Tested Theory in the History of Science? It’s a little tough to quantify a title like that, but I think relativity can claim to have tested the smallest effects. Things like the aluminum ion clock experiments showing shifts in the rate of a clock set moving at a few m/s, or raised by a foot, measure relativistic shifts of a few parts in 10^16. That is, if one clock ticks 10,000,000,000,000,000 times, the other ticks 9,999,999,999,999,999 times. That’s an impressively tiny effect, but the measured value is in good agreement with the predictions of relativity. In the end, though, I have to give the nod to QED, because while the absolute effects in relativity may be smaller, the precision of the measurements in QED is more impressive. Experimental tests of relativity measure tiny shifts, but to only a few decimal places. Experimental tests of QED measure small shifts, but to an absurd number of decimal places. The most impressive of these is the “anomalous magnetic moment of the electron,” expressed is terms of a number g whose best measured value is: g/2 = 1.001 159 652 180 73 (28) Depending on how you want to count it, that’s either 11 or 14 digits of precision (the value you would expect without QED is exactly 1, so in some sense, the shift really starts with the first non-zero decimal place), which is just incredible. And QED correctly predicts all those decimal places (at least to within the measurement uncertainty, given by the two digits in parentheses at the end of that). http://scienceblogs.com/principles/2011/05/05/the-most-precisely-tested-theo/
Moreover, a test has actually been performed showing that Quantum Theory will not be exceeded in predictive power by another future theory:
Can quantum theory be improved? - July 23, 2012 Excerpt: However, in the new paper, the physicists have experimentally demonstrated that there cannot exist any alternative theory that increases the predictive probability of quantum theory by more than 0.165, with the only assumption being that measurement (observation) parameters can be chosen independently (free choice assumption) of the other parameters of the theory.,,, ,, the experimental results provide the tightest constraints yet on alternatives to quantum theory. The findings imply that quantum theory is close to optimal in terms of its predictive power, even when the predictions are completely random. http://phys.org/news/2012-07-quantum-theory.html
Now this is completely unheard of in science as far as I know. i.e. That a mathematical description of reality would advance to the point that one can actually perform a experiment showing that your current theory will not be exceeded in predictive power by another future theory is simply unprecedented in science! It is certainly worthy of more attention than it has received thus far!,, But to the main point of showing that Darwinism is a pseudo-science,, there is simply nothing like that in Darwinism:
Macroevolution, microevolution and chemistry: the devil is in the details – Dr. V. J. Torley – February 27, 2013 Excerpt: After all, mathematics, scientific laws and observed processes are supposed to form the basis of all scientific explanation. If none of these provides support for Darwinian macroevolution, then why on earth should we accept it? Indeed, why does macroevolution belong in the province of science at all, if its scientific basis cannot be demonstrated? https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/macroevolution-microevolution-and-chemistry-the-devil-is-in-the-details/ “On the other hand, I disagree that Darwin’s theory is as `solid as any explanation in science.; Disagree? I regard the claim as preposterous. Quantum electrodynamics is accurate to thirteen or so decimal places; so, too, general relativity. A leaf trembling in the wrong way would suffice to shatter either theory. What can Darwinian theory offer in comparison?” (Berlinski, D., “A Scientific Scandal?: David Berlinski & Critics,” Commentary, July 8, 2003)
Whereas ID does not suffer from such an severe embarrassment of non-falsifiability as Darwinism does:
This short sentence, "The quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog" is calculated by Winston Ewert, in this following video at the 10 minute mark, to contain 1000 bits of algorithmic specified complexity, and thus to exceed the Universal Probability Bound (UPB) of 500 bits set by Dr. Dembski Proposed Information Metric: Conditional Kolmogorov Complexity - Winston Ewert - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fm3mm3ofAYU Here are the slides of preceding video with a clear view of the calculation of the information content of the preceding sentence on page 14 http://www.blythinstitute.org/images/data/attachments/0000/0037/present_info.pdf The Capabilities of Chaos and Complexity: David L. Abel - Null Hypothesis For Information Generation - 2009 To focus the scientific community’s attention on its own tendencies toward overzealous metaphysical imagination bordering on “wish-fulfillment,” we propose the following readily falsifiable null hypothesis, and invite rigorous experimental attempts to falsify it: "Physicodynamics cannot spontaneously traverse The Cybernetic Cut: physicodynamics alone cannot organize itself into formally functional systems requiring algorithmic optimization, computational halting, and circuit integration." A single exception of non trivial, unaided spontaneous optimization of formal function by truly natural process would falsify this null hypothesis. http://www.mdpi.com/1422-0067/10/1/247/pdf Michael Behe on Falsifying Intelligent Design - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8jXXJN4o_A Orr maintains that the theory of intelligent design is not falsifiable. He’s wrong. To falsify design theory a scientist need only experimentally demonstrate that a bacterial flagellum, or any other comparably complex system, could arise by natural selection. If that happened I would conclude that neither flagella nor any system of similar or lesser complexity had to have been designed. In short, biochemical design would be neatly disproved.- Dr Behe in 1997
Well CLAVDIVS, science is not the politics of consensus, and as such, why are you not concerned with Darwinism lack of mathematical rigor? i.e. why the games?bornagain77
August 3, 2013
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Querius @ 59
CLAVDIVS @ 24: Don’t you agree that “the scientific community has overwhelmingly rejected intelligent design as a scientific theory”? CLAVDIVS @ 51: In my view it’s plain as the nose on your face that the consensus of the scientific community is that ID is not science. I can’t even tell from reading your post whether you agree or disagree with this – perhaps you could clarify. Querius @ 59: Here’s what wrong with talking about the “scientific community” and “the scientific consensus” in this case.
From reading your latest I still don't know whether you agree that "the scientific community has overwhelmingly rejected intelligent design as a scientific theory"? This was the basis of University President's decision not to teach ID in science classes. What I'm wondering is, do you agree that the scientific community (rightly or wrongly) has rejected ID as science?
If you wanted to get an expert opinion on the ID paradigm in relation to the origin and development of life on Earth, would you go to o A scientist with a PhD in Materials Science? .... etc. o A professor whose field is specifically the study of Darwinian Evolution? Obviously (to me anyway), the only expert opinion that would count in such an issue would be precisely the person who has a diametrically opposed view to ID. Note that the “leading experts” in any field most likely represent the orthodox view.
The question at issue here is "Ought we to teach ID in science class?" or "Is ID science?" This is a question about the methods and practices of ID, and whether they are science. So it would be appropriate and relevant to get the views of as many practicing scientists, philosophers of science, science scholars and scientific societies as possible. And the wide consensus appears very plainly to be that ID is not science. And this is from a group (scientists) that recent research shows about 51% are believers in God or a higher power, and a further 8% "don't know"; viz. they are not philosophical atheists/materialists by a clear majority. Add to this the fact that ID is not inconsistent with the mainstream scientific views of common descent or the mechanisms of variation and selection, as has been pointed out many times by ID proponents on this site. You are left with the clear picture that ID is rejected as science not because of philosophical bias or conflict with the current paradigm, but for the reason that it does not propose an explanation that we can test using the methods of science. Which is what I've been saying all along.
CLAVDIVS: Umm – I’ll go with option c. – the one that Ohno actually chose – which was that he expected the so-called “junk DNA” to actually have function on the grounds that he believed Darwinian mechanisms would remove non-functional DNA from the genome. Querius: I’m familiar with Ohno’s paper, having recently read it several times in its entirety at Elizabeth’s provocation, and I found it interesting, if short. The original 1972 paper was titled, SO MUCH “JUNK” DNA IN OUR GENOME. The word “junk” implies that this DNA is non-functional. In fact, in Ohno’s paper, you might have read the following sentence: “Our view is that they are the remains of nature’s experiments which failed.” So, your answer c. is incorrect.
Sorry, Querius, you don't get to substitute your personal opinion about what is "implied" by the term "junk" in place of Ohno's actual opinion about whether non-coding DNA was likely to have function. Both he and other scientists did think it was likely to be functional - even though it might be the remnants of "failed experiments", they believed it was likely co-opted for some function - they said so at the conference proceedings where he presented his paper, it is there in black and white in the transcript, and I even gave you the reference. Not only that, I showed you how prior to Ohno coining the term "junk DNA", the existence of non-coding DNA was known to scientists and even at that early stage they suspected it was functional and they had already proposed quite a number of possible functions, some of which turned out to be correct. You didn't even comment on that. In other words, opinions on connotations of the word "junk", a mere label for a complex genomic phenomenon, are simply irrelevant to the question of what did the scientists actually think about whether non-coding DNA was functional. And we know that many thought it had function, because we have their thoughts in writing, as I have showed.
BSU President Jo-Ann Gora should be providing a safe haven for a diversity of viewpoints rather than conjuring “academic integrity” to suppress some of them.
There's no suppression. The President stated ID was suitable for teaching at Ball State University, just not in science classes.CLAVDIVS
August 3, 2013
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Claudius, Here's what wrong with talking about the "scientific community" and "the scientific consensus" in this case. If you wanted to get an expert opinion on the ID paradigm in relation to the origin and development of life on Earth, would you go to o A scientist with a PhD in Materials Science? o A scientist researching electromagnetic resonances? o A professor in the Dairy Science department? o A professor specializing in Endocrinology? . . . o A professor whose field is specifically the study of Darwinian Evolution? Obviously (to me anyway), the only expert opinion that would count in such an issue would be precisely the person who has a diametrically opposed view to ID. Note that the "leading experts" in any field most likely represent the orthodox view. I'm familiar with Ohno's paper, having recently read it several times in its entirety at Elizabeth's provocation, and I found it interesting, if short. The original 1972 paper was titled, SO MUCH "JUNK" DNA IN OUR GENOME. The word "junk" implies that this DNA is non-functional. In fact, in Ohno's paper, you might have read the following sentence:
"Our view is that they are the remains of nature's experiments which failed."
So, your answer c. is incorrect. But thank you for taking the time to research the subsequent adjustments to his position. Nevertheless, assuming that the non-coding regions of DNA is "junk" was a mistake. BSU President Jo-Ann Gora should be providing a safe haven for a diversity of viewpoints rather than conjuring "academic integrity" to suppress some of them.Querius
August 3, 2013
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Joe, I'll give you an example from a different discipline, i.e., not biology. It still should be illustrative enough for you to do the same thing with ID theory. After all, it's the theory you yourself advocate! Anyways, here's my example of an enumerated list of different types of evidence. In the discipline of biblical studies, the Torah (or Pentateuch) is generally considered to have been built by, well, and evolutionary process. According to the documentary hypothesis, the Torah as we have it today developed from early oral and written sources that coagulated into four main sources--J, E, P, and D. Between 922 BCE and 400 BCE, the four sources were compiled and woven together to produce the Torah. The documentary hypothesis has several different scholarly variations, and some folks do reject it, it must be said. Religious people are naturally predisposed against it because it potentially undermines claims of divine origin and/or authority. In any case, the evidence types that make the documentary hypothesis not only compelling but also better attested than rival hypotheses fall into seven categories: (1) the Hebrew language of different periods in the Torah, (2) the use and quantity of terms in the different sources, (3) consistent content (such as the revelation of God's name, (4) the narrative flow of each source, (5) the connection between parts of the Torah and other parts of the Bible, (6) the relationships of the sources to each other and to history, and (7) the convergence of the different lines of evidence. What I am asking from you is a similar list of types of evidence supporting design theory. And again, we can take it as given that evolutionism has no evidence or testable hypotheses. Let's just stipulate that now and no longer mention it. We can just focus on ID theory now.LarTanner
August 3, 2013
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Neil Rickert wrote a post trying to respond to this OP. Unfiortunately for Neil he choked again. Earth to Neil- the purpose of asking how she defines ID is because it is a given that she doesn't know anything about it. Getting her definition would be the first step in curing her ignorance. As for the rest of your tripe, well, the anti-ID position isn't science, Neil. It doesn't make any predictions and cannot be tested. That screws up your "academic integrity" pap.Joe
August 3, 2013
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LarTanner:
Enumerate the different main strands of evidence that make up the body of data supporting ID theory. Just list–1,2,3–the main categories under which the evidence can be classed.
Could you please give me an example- does evolutionism have something like that? (I am not sure what you are asking- also Mike Gene's "The Design Matrix" may have already covered it). Also consider these: “The same narrow circumstances that allow us to exist also provide us with the best over all conditions for making scientific discoveries.” -------------------------------------------------------------------- “The one place that has observers is the one place that also has perfect solar eclipses.” -------------------------------------------------------------------- “There is a final, even more bizarre twist. Because of Moon-induced tides, the Moon is gradually receding from Earth at 3.82 centimeters per year. In ten million years will seem noticeably smaller. At the same time, the Sun’s apparent girth has been swelling by six centimeters per year for ages, as is normal in stellar evolution. These two processes, working together, should end total solar eclipses in about 250 million years, a mere 5 percent of the age of the Earth. This relatively small window of opportunity also happens to coincide with the existence of intelligent life. Put another way, the most habitable place in the Solar System yields the best view of solar eclipses just when observers can best appreciate them.” To any non-design scenario that is all just sheer dumb luck.Joe
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Joe, I understand your point about reading up on ATP synthase and ribosomes, but that's not the level this discussion needs to be at. We can talk more effectively at a higher level. Just do this for me: Enumerate the different main strands of evidence that make up the body of data supporting ID theory. Just list--1,2,3--the main categories under which the evidence can be classed. I get that you think evolutionism or "blind watchmaker" is untenable. Your opinion on this is clear. No need to reiterate.LarTanner
August 3, 2013
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LarTanner:
ID has been around long enough to have well started down the path of a body of “concrete, evidence-supported and experimentally verifiable data about their theory.” Where is it? Where?
And evolutionism has been around long enough to have well started down the path of a body of “concrete, evidence-supported and experimentally verifiable data about their theory.” Where is it? Where? But I digress- the evidence for ID is in peer-reviewed journals- read up on ATP synthase and the ribosome, for starters.Joe
August 3, 2013
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CLAVDIVS:
We don’t just say that the computer had an “intelligent cause”, without any detail or qualification, because this could be true of absolutely anything, and thus is trivial and unscientific.
Pure tard. If we just had a computer and no knowledge of how it came to be, how do you suggest we get those details? Look at evolutionism- 150+ years and it is void of details.
What we do say is that the computer was made at a specific time and place, using specific components of specific composition from specific sources, in a specific order, by specific intelligent humans, all of which can be checked and confirmed (or perhaps refuted).
Say you were an Amazon tribesman and you came across a computer in the jungle- left there by some scientist. How would you get those details?Joe
August 3, 2013
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I completely agree the ID hypothesis is scientific, but also feel you guys need to do more scientific work geared towards ID and push Scientific Journals and conferences. If you had more visibility in these areas, whether you get through or not, would present a strong position you are trying in regards to research and a desire to submit to Journals etc. Just my two cents as an observer.equate65
August 3, 2013
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Querius @ 44
CLAVDIVS: Don’t you agree that “the scientific community has overwhelmingly rejected intelligent design as a scientific theory”? Querius: The question is an ipse dixit, and is irrelevant to scientific truth. Even so, I’m not sure whether there is a “scientific community” that votes on what they corporately agree to believe. But I agree that there are some outspoken advocates of evolution that represent themselves as the consensus of ALL scientists, regardless of their discipline.
The question may be irrelevant to scientific "truth" but it is was apparently highly relevant for the University President to consider the advice of scholars and the scientific community on whether ID should be taught in science class. In my view it's plain as the nose on your face that the consensus of the scientific community is that ID is not science. I can't even tell from reading your post whether you agree or disagree with this - perhaps you could clarify.
Let’s do a utilitarian thought experiment. Let’s imagine that there’s no God or aliens from another world that had anything to do with engineering life on Earth. Next, let’s say that you’re Dr. Susumu Ohno, credited with the discovery of non-coding regions of DNA. Which of the following two choices would be more efficient in facilitating scientific progress: a. Assuming that these regions have no function and calling them “junk” DNA? b. Assuming that these regions were intelligently designed and have a purpose?
Umm - I'll go with option c. - the one that Ohno actually chose - which was that he expected the so-called "junk DNA" to actually have function on the grounds that he believed Darwinian mechanisms would remove non-functional DNA from the genome. Ohno explained this in an interview immediately after the conference where he coined the term "junk DNA" - the transcript is in Ohno, S. (1973) "Evolutional reason for having so much junk DNA", Modern Aspects of Cytogenetics: Constitutive Heterochromatin in Man (ed. R.A. Pfeiffer), pp. 169-173. F.K. Schattauer Verlag, Stuttgart, Germany. In fact, in 1971 before Ohno first coined the term "junk DNA", biologists had discovered large portions of the genome that did not code for proteins and/or was repetitive, and had no known function. Nonetheless, they proposed numerous possible functions for such DNA, and subsequent research has shown some of their proposals to be correct:
Ever since the initial demonstration of the existence of repetitive DNA there has been no dearth of theories on the function of this material. … Following is a list of functions that have been proposed … 1. Recognition of centromeres of common origin. 2. Recognition between homologous chromosomes during pairing. 3. Regions involved in the initiation of replication and/or transcription. 4. Sites concerned with specifying the folding patterns of chromosomes. 5. Recognition sites for the process of genetic recombination. 6. Provision of raw material for genetic divergence. 7. Reflection of similarities in the structure of different proteins. 8. DNA concerned with the regulation of gene expression (regulatory DNA). 9. Reflection of multiplicity of repeated genes, as for example, in the master and slave or multistranded chromosome hypothesis. … None of the recognition functions, i.e., recognition of centromeres, initiation sites, pairing sites, recombination sites, folding sites, or regulatory sites, that we have discussed is mutually exclusive of the others. They all relate to cellular phenomena that have been demonstrated or inferred from other data. All these phenomena probably exist within every higher organism. Therefore, DNA involved in each of these functions could contribute in varying degrees to the repeated portion of the genome. – Bostock, C. (1971) “Repetitious DNA” Advances in Cell Biology 2: 153-223
CLAVDIVS
August 3, 2013
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vjtorley @ 43
CLAVDIVS: Your rearrangement of the ID claim to “could not have happened without intelligence” is yet another assertion we can’t check even in principle, because we are not all-knowing. ... But of course this does not tell us how X did happen, nor whether intelligence was required or even involved at all. vjtorley: So you think SETI is unscientific?
For the most part, yes, as I think many in the scientific community would agree - e.g. in 2009 a Nature article noted that SETI was "arguably not a falsifiable experiment" and has been for most of its history "on the edge of mainstream astronomy" (Nature 461, 316 17/9/2009).
You think that if we found the monolith in 2001, the only rational conclusion we could draw is that no unintelligent natural process that we know of could have produced it?
No, I don't think that at all. I think if we found the 2001 monolith on the Moon any reasonable person would ascribe it to an intelligent cause. However that would be a metaphysical speculation and not a scientific explanation because, however reasonable it may be in this particular example, the fact remains that the claim "intelligent cause" is far too vague and unqualified to actually check. What would happen, of course - with great energy and excitement I suspect - is we would follow up that initial metaphysical speculation of intelligent cause with a battery of genuinely scientifically testable explanations about the origin of the monolith - like it was made at a particular time, from particular materials, with particular tools or methods; and we could follow its radio signal to the outer planets and check all sorts of scientific explanations along the way. There's nothing irrational or even disreputable about speculating about an intelligent cause; but on its own, that is not a sufficiently specific claim to be testable, so it's not science.
Finally, I’d like to address your complaint that knowing that Q, R and S did not produce a pattern X “does not tell us how X did happen.” You seem to be assuming here that the only kind of legitimate explanation of a pattern, signal or process is one which tells us how it was produced.
No, I do not assume that at all. It is perfectly legitimate to speculate about and proffer an explanation for a pattern without knowing how it was produced. What I have been saying all along is, however legitimate and rational your speculations and explanations may be, they are not scientific explanations unless they can be checked against reality.CLAVDIVS
August 3, 2013
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Claudius
The problem is, the explanation “intelligently caused”, with qualification, is reliably true of all objects and events, because it can’t not be true – it’s so broad in power and scope it can explain anything. Accordingly it is trivial and unscientific.
And
I think the problem is deeper than that. In my view “intelligent cause” doesn’t quite rise to the level of being an explanation at all, let alone a scientifically testable one. Usually when we give an explanation, we give a reason why things are one way, and not another way. An assertion that is compatible with all possible states of affairs, including opposite or contradictory ones, can’t really count as an explanation.
Then by your own standard, ID is great shape as science. Evolutionary biology has failed miserably at providing any sort of explanation via undirected, natural causes for the complex, specified information we observe throughout biological systems. However, we also know from observation and experience that any artifact that exhibits CSI and we know its causal history, intelligence is always the cause. So, its not to big a leap to infer that if we observe CSI in a biological artifact or system, that some intelligence or other had to be the cause. That's a far cry from "explaining anything and everything"...which ID does not purport to do anyway. ID is not not compatible with all states of affairs because, as science, ID recognizes the role that natural cause and effect plays throughout off of Nature. But it also recognizes that Nature is not capable, even in principle, of producing CSI. Why not in principle? Because CSI by its very nature requires intelligence. That means that ID is very scientific and easily testable by the normative means of science. All you have to do, Claudius, is observe CSI in some natural system, and then provide a detailed, testable and potentially falsifiable model as to how undirected, natural causes can account for it. To date, no such scientific research study has ever been published in any peer reviewed scientific journal to explain CSI via undirected, natural causes. In effect, all such tests have are attempts at falsifying ID (thus testing it!) and it has, so far, withstood all attempts at falsification. The further problem with your statement is that suppose the actual state of affairs throughout the Cosmos is that all of it really was intelligently caused. If that's the true state of affairs, then saying it isn't "scientific" to say so is bogus! But even worse is claiming that undirected, natural causes account for all natural systems with absolutely no detailed, testable, model as to how that took place. If the true state of affairs is design, but science can only consider undirected, natural causes, then science...not Nature...has a problem. In other words, Nature is where we look to create a true picture of the world...not "consensus" philosophical opinions, which is precisely what Dr. Gora was doing with her naive statement!DonaldM
August 2, 2013
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'So you think SETI is unscientific? You think that if we found the monolith in 2001, the only rational conclusion we could draw is that no unintelligent natural process that we know of could have produced it? You think that if we found a signal in space containing the first 100 prime numbers, then all we could legitimately claim is that some unknown process created the signal? You think that if we found a digital code, or even a computer program, embedded in a physical entity, that a similarly modest conclusion would be all that we would be warranted in drawing?' Don't be nasty, vjt! They must take baby-steps before they can learn to walk. Those pop-up picture books, I believe, are very popular with toddlers.Axel
August 2, 2013
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... and they're being punished for it.Axel
August 2, 2013
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'Don’t you agree that “the scientific community has overwhelmingly rejected intelligent design as a scientific theory”?' Do you deny then that a totalitarian suppression of dissidents pointing to the incontrovertible evidence for ID, as well as, indeed, for theism in quantum mechanics, is being perpetrated by the authorities over the scientific community? Well, actually nothing can suppress either now, since the 'genie is out of the bottle': You lose, Savonagora! The dissidents are decrying the obstinate refusal of the Consensus to join the logical dots, renounce their insane 'auto da fe', put up their hands, and promise never to presume to teach metaphysics to dissidents or anyone else, ever again.Axel
August 2, 2013
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CLAVDIVS,
Don’t you agree that “the scientific community has overwhelmingly rejected intelligent design as a scientific theory”?
The question is an ipse dixit, and is irrelevant to scientific truth. Even so, I'm not sure whether there is a "scientific community" that votes on what they corporately agree to believe. But I agree that there are some outspoken advocates of evolution that represent themselves as the consensus of ALL scientists, regardless of their discipline. I'd suggest that scientific progress tends to be hindered rather than facilitated by consensus and orthodoxy. To be fair, orthodoxy does hinder some of the kookier theories, but then some of these have eventually become orthodox. For example, continental drift was considered a fringe idea supported only by a few crackpots in the 1960s, and was "overwhelmingly rejected" by "the scientific community" of the time. At that time, you could easily have asked me the same question about the overwhelming consensus regarding continental drift, and it would have been just as pointless.
I’m not asking you to agree that they’re right, just whether it is fair to say scholars, practising scientists and scientific societies in general have rejected ID as science?
First of all, I think that ID should be considered a paradigm rather than a theory. Let's do a utilitarian thought experiment. Let's imagine that there's no God or aliens from another world that had anything to do with engineering life on Earth. Next, let's say that you're Dr. Susumu Ohno, credited with the discovery of non-coding regions of DNA. Which of the following two choices would be more efficient in facilitating scientific progress: a. Assuming that these regions have no function and calling them "junk" DNA? b. Assuming that these regions were intelligently designed and have a purpose? Hint: Even if God or space aliens did not exist, accepting the blind (or not) watchmaker (ID) paradigm (b) would have proved to facilitate scientific progress! I'd also like to say that I don't believe that ID is a form of "Biblical creationism" nor would I advocate that religious beliefs should be taught in any science classroom.Querius
August 2, 2013
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CLAVDIVS I'd like to respond to a remark you made in #31 above:
Your rearrangement of the ID claim to "could not have happened without intelligence" is yet another assertion we can't check even in principle, because we are not all-knowing. We can only confirm that something could not have happened by any process we know enough about to check it thoroughly. Thus the the claim "X did not happen due to process Q, R or S" can be squarely scientific, albeit a bit iffy, depending on how good our knowledge of Q, R and S is. But of course this does not tell us how X did happen, nor whether intelligence was required or even involved at all.
So you think SETI is unscientific? You think that if we found the monolith in 2001, the only rational conclusion we could draw is that no unintelligent natural process that we know of could have produced it? You think that if we found a signal in space containing the first 100 prime numbers, then all we could legitimately claim is that some unknown process created the signal? You think that if we found a digital code, or even a computer program, embedded in a physical entity, that a similarly modest conclusion would be all that we would be warranted in drawing? Finally, I'd like to address your complaint that knowing that Q, R and S did not produce a pattern X "does not tell us how X did happen." You seem to be assuming here that the only kind of legitimate explanation of a pattern, signal or process is one which tells us how it was produced. But if a pattern, signal or process had been produced by an intelligent agent far more advanced than we are, it may not even be possible in principle for us to understand how it was produced: for instance, the explanation might be so long and convoluted that our brains would be incapable of assimilating it all. However, one fact that we could immediately recognize from examining it is the fact that it was produced by an intelligent agent. "Intelligence" is not the name of a mechanism.vjtorley
August 2, 2013
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See post #13 above.
Seen and read, Phinehas. What, exactly, would you think merits my attention that I might have missed?Alan Fox
August 2, 2013
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Sorry for a blunt opinion, but post #13 is garbage. A proper scientific theory of intelligent design starts with two primary concepts, 'design' and 'intelligent design.' It will classify different kinds of designs and intelligent designs and talk about how each might arise. The sad thing is that such a theory is do-able and would be exceedingly interesting if it were unhampered in its progress by religious ideologues.LarTanner
August 2, 2013
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AF: See post #13 above.Phinehas
August 2, 2013
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Why, it's the 'best explanation'! Har, har.LarTanner
August 2, 2013
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The question "what is the theory of intelligent design" could, presumably, be answered by someone telling us what the theory of intelligent design is. Any takers?Alan Fox
August 2, 2013
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Information, schminformation! eh, Lars? You tell him!Axel
August 2, 2013
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Moreover LT, science now shows us that “information reduces to consciousness": The argument for God from consciousness can now be framed like this: 1. Consciousness either preceded all of material reality or is a ‘epi-phenomena’ of material reality. 2. If consciousness is a ‘epi-phenomena’ of material reality then consciousness will be found to have no special position within material reality. Whereas conversely, if consciousness precedes material reality then consciousness will be found to have a special position within material reality. 3. Consciousness is found to have a special, even central, position within material reality. 4. Therefore, consciousness is found to precede material reality. Four intersecting lines of experimental evidence from quantum mechanics that shows that consciousness precedes material reality (Leggett’s Inequalities, Wheeler’s Delayed Choice; Wigner’s Quantum Symmetries; ) https://docs.google.com/document/d/1G_Fi50ljF5w_XyJHfmSIZsOcPFhgoAZ3PRc_ktY8cFo/edit The Galileo Affair and Life/Consciousness as the true “Center of the Universe” https://docs.google.com/document/d/1BHAcvrc913SgnPcDohwkPnN4kMJ9EDX-JJSkjc4AXmA/edit Of related note: The following site is very interesting to the subject of consciousness preceding ‘material’ reality: The Scale of The Universe - Part 2 - interactive graph (recently updated in 2012 with cool features) http://htwins.net/scale2/scale2.swf?bordercolor=white The preceding interactive graph points out that the smallest scale visible to the human eye (as well as a human egg) is at 10^-4 meters, which ‘just so happens’ to be directly in the exponential center of all possible sizes of our physical reality (not just ‘nearly’ in the exponential center!). i.e. 10^-4 is, exponentially, right in the middle of 10^-35 meters, which is the smallest possible unit of length, which is Planck length, and 10^27 meters, which is the largest possible unit of ‘observable’ length since space-time was created in the Big Bang, which is the diameter of the universe. This is very interesting for, as far as I can tell, the limits to human vision (as well as the size of the human egg) could have, theoretically, been at very different positions than directly in the exponential middle;bornagain77
August 2, 2013
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LarTanner, you, in your atheistic/materialistic worldview which you have such unquestioned faith in, hold that information 'emerges' from a material basis, but the fact of the matter is that science now shows us that material reduces to information: Here are my references for the claim that "energy and mass both reduce to information": Ions have been teleported successfully for the first time by two independent research groups Excerpt: In fact, copying isn’t quite the right word for it. In order to reproduce the quantum state of one atom in a second atom, the original has to be destroyed. This is unavoidable – it is enforced by the laws of quantum mechanics, which stipulate that you can’t ‘clone’ a quantum state. In principle, however, the ‘copy’ can be indistinguishable from the original (that was destroyed),,, http://www.rsc.org/chemistryworld/Issues/2004/October/beammeup.asp Atom takes a quantum leap – 2009 Excerpt: Ytterbium ions have been ‘teleported’ over a distance of a metre.,,, “What you’re moving is information, not the actual atoms,” says Chris Monroe, from the Joint Quantum Institute at the University of Maryland in College Park and an author of the paper. But as two particles of the same type differ only in their quantum states, the transfer of quantum information is equivalent to moving the first particle to the location of the second. http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2171769/posts Physicists set new record for quantum teleportation with matter qubits - Apr 16, 2013 Excerpt: "The greatest significance of our work is the dramatic increase in efficiency compared to previous realizations of matter-matter teleportation," Nölleke said. "Besides, it is the first demonstration of matter-matter teleportation between truly independent systems and constitutes the current record in distance of 21 m. The previous record was 1 m." http://phys.org/news/2013-04-physicists-quantum-teleportation-qubits.html How Teleportation Will Work - Excerpt: In 1993, the idea of teleportation moved out of the realm of science fiction and into the world of theoretical possibility. It was then that physicist Charles Bennett and a team of researchers at IBM confirmed that quantum teleportation was possible, but only if the original object being teleported was destroyed. — As predicted, the original photon no longer existed once the replica was made. http://science.howstuffworks.com/science-vs-myth/everyday-myths/teleportation1.htm Quantum Teleportation – IBM Research Page Excerpt: “it would destroy the original (photon) in the process,,” http://researcher.ibm.com/view_project.php?id=2862 Unconditional Quantum Teleportation – abstract Excerpt: This is the first realization of unconditional quantum teleportation where every state entering the device is actually teleported,, http://www.sciencemag.org/content/282/5389/706.abstract It is also very interesting to note that the quantum state of a photon is actually defined as 'infinite information' in its uncollapsed quantum wave state: Quantum Computing - Stanford Encyclopedia Excerpt: Theoretically, a single qubit can store an infinite amount of information, yet when measured (and thus collapsing the Quantum Wave state) it yields only the classical result (0 or 1),,, http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/qt-quantcomp/#2.1 Additionally, encoded ‘classical’ information such as what we find encoded in computer programs, and yes, as we find encoded in DNA, is found to be a subset of conserved ‘non-local’ (beyond space and time) quantum entanglement/information by the following method: Quantum knowledge cools computers: New understanding of entropy – June 2011 Excerpt: No heat, even a cooling effect; In the case of perfect classical knowledge of a computer memory (zero entropy), deletion of the data requires in theory no energy at all. The researchers prove that “more than complete knowledge” from quantum entanglement with the memory (negative entropy) leads to deletion of the data being accompanied by removal of heat from the computer and its release as usable energy. This is the physical meaning of negative entropy. Renner emphasizes, however, “This doesn’t mean that we can develop a perpetual motion machine.” The data can only be deleted once, so there is no possibility to continue to generate energy. The process also destroys the entanglement, and it would take an input of energy to reset the system to its starting state. The equations are consistent with what’s known as the second law of thermodynamics: the idea that the entropy of the universe can never decrease. Vedral says “We’re working on the edge of the second law. If you go any further, you will break it.” http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/06/110601134300.htmbornagain77
August 2, 2013
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BA, You really don't get it, do you? (This is a rhetorical question.) ID has been around long enough to have well started down the path of a body of "concrete, evidence-supported and experimentally verifiable data about their theory." Where is it? Where? Don't feed us a shabby excerpt from Meyer's pedestrian and misinformed efforts. Everyone knows he's just cashing in on the hopes and fears of those like you that have so little faith as to need their religion be more sciency. But the basic question -- the one you skipped -- is when “the theory of Intelligent Design” will mature into an actual theory of intelligent design. Don't you think it's odd that your pet theory has no theory?LarTanner
August 2, 2013
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LarTanner, you yourself provide concrete evidence for intelligent design every time you write a single post.
Book Review - Meyer, Stephen C. Signature in the Cell. New York: HarperCollins, 2009. Excerpt: As early as the 1960s, those who approached the problem of the origin of life from the standpoint of information theory and combinatorics observed that something was terribly amiss. Even if you grant the most generous assumptions: that every elementary particle in the observable universe is a chemical laboratory randomly splicing amino acids into proteins every Planck time for the entire history of the universe, there is a vanishingly small probability that even a single functionally folded protein of 150 amino acids would have been created. Now of course, elementary particles aren't chemical laboratories, nor does peptide synthesis take place where most of the baryonic mass of the universe resides: in stars or interstellar and intergalactic clouds. If you look at the chemistry, it gets even worse—almost indescribably so: the precursor molecules of many of these macromolecular structures cannot form under the same prebiotic conditions—they must be catalysed by enzymes created only by preexisting living cells, and the reactions required to assemble them into the molecules of biology will only go when mediated by other enzymes, assembled in the cell by precisely specified information in the genome. So, it comes down to this: Where did that information come from? The simplest known free living organism (although you may quibble about this, given that it's a parasite) has a genome of 582,970 base pairs, or about one megabit (assuming two bits of information for each nucleotide, of which there are four possibilities). Now, if you go back to the universe of elementary particle Planck time chemical labs and work the numbers, you find that in the finite time our universe has existed, you could have produced about 500 bits of structured, functional information by random search. Yet here we have a minimal information string which is (if you understand combinatorics) so indescribably improbable to have originated by chance that adjectives fail. http://www.fourmilab.ch/documents/reading_list/indices/book_726.html
Or do you deny that you are intelligent? So why the games LT? You provide one example of Darwinism doing what you yourself do so easily and then you might be able to call Darwinism scientific instead of lying and saying ID is unscientific!bornagain77
August 2, 2013
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OldArmy94,
At the end of the day, if all that intelligent design accomplishes is to force the proponents of Darwinian evolution to find concrete, evidence-supported and experimentally verifiable data about their theory, then it has played a tremendous role in the progress of science.
Maybe, but don't you think "the theory of Intelligent Design" ought to be an actual theory of intelligent design? Since UD presents itself as a champion of ID, shouldn't the site be more concerned with the "concrete, evidence-supported and experimentally verifiable data about their theory"?LarTanner
August 2, 2013
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