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Another Irony Alert

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Over at his “step-by-step” post Upright BiPed muses over the irony of Elizabeth Liddle calling herself “skeptical” and naming her blog “The Skeptical Zone” when she clings to conclusions driven by her deeply held ideological predispositions in the teeth of logic and evidence and with a dogmatic fervor that would make a medieval churchman blush. 

The dictionary defines “skeptical” as “an attitude of doubt or a disposition to incredulity either in general or toward a particular object.”  That last phrase is the key.  When a person says they are skeptical, they may mean they are generally skeptical or particularly skeptical. 

UB obviously believes that a person who takes on the mantle of skepticism is using the word in the former sense, i.e., generally skeptical.  And perhaps that is the way Liddle intends to use it.  The problem, of course, is that in practice she is far from generally skeptical.  And she is not alone.  It has been my invariable experience that people who go out of the way to call themselves skeptical are in fact skeptical of everything, everything that is except received knowledge and conventional wisdom, which they cling to with a blinkered zeal they would mock were they to see it in others. 

Naturally, UB expects that if the denizens of The Skeptical Zone were genuinely skeptical (in the general sense of that word), the “Central Dogma” of Darwinian Evolution would be the first thing about which they would be skeptical.  After all, Darwinian Evolution is perhaps the archetypical conventional wisdom of our time.  But that is obviously not the case.  Instead, The Skeptical Zone is a place where the Central Dogma is zealously defended. UB is right.  The name of Liddle’s blog is unintentionally ironic.  If Liddle were to title her blog truthfully it would be called “The Zone Where We Are Skeptical About Everything But Our Own Cherished Beliefs, Which We Never Question Much Less Seriously Challenge.”  Yep, delicious irony seasoned with more than a dash of hypocrisy.

 

Comments
a specific instance of the problem of idiocyMung
November 11, 2012
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KN:
Basically, anything that would lead a a reasonable Jew, Muslim, Sikh, Buddhist, pagan, atheist, or agnostic to feel like a second-class citizen is a violation of secularism.
God forbid a white male Christian should feel like a second class citizen. So as long as the nativity displays were in proportion to displays by these other groups, proportionate to their representation in the population, that would be ok? I don't feel like I'm represented. I feel like a second class citizen. poor me. ;)
Mung, at this point I’m not sure if you’re putting me on or not, because I’d thought the answers would be perfectly obvious:
I try to be an equal opportunity tweaker of sensibilities. Basically, it seems to me that you are attempting a political/apolitical demarcation. So my immediate response is, based upon what? Then my next response, knee-jerk as it may seem is, is 'political' even the appropriate category for demarcation. I think I may be the only true skeptic. :) I did, in fact, question my own Christianity. I found out I wasn't really a Christian.Mung
November 11, 2012
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Just another lying liar who has found refuge at TSZ. Congratulations Elizabeth!
I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ, think it possible that you may be mistaken.
Oh, the irony!
Mung
November 11, 2012
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Mung, at this point I'm not sure if you're putting me on or not, because I'd thought the answers would be perfectly obvious: it's partly about whose money is spent, and partly about whether a reasonable person would construe it as government endorse of a particular religion. Hence:
A Nativity scene in a shop window is public, because it’s in full view of anyone who happens to be in the vicinity, but it’s not political because . . .
Tax-payer revenues were not spent in acquiring the Nativity, and no one reasonable person would construe a Nativity scene in a store-front window as government endorsement of any particular religion.
A Nativity scene in front of the town-hall is public, because it’s in full view of anyone who happens to be in the vicinity, but it’s political because . . .
For the converse reasons: either because tax-payer revenues are spent in acquiring the scene (unless it were donated), or because the display of a Nativity scene in front of a town-hall would be construed as the government endorsing Christianity, making some specific claim about the role of Christianity with regards to the state. Basically, anything that would lead a a reasonable Jew, Muslim, Sikh, Buddhist, pagan, atheist, or agnostic to feel like a second-class citizen is a violation of secularism. A Nativity scene in a store-front window might remind someone of their difference or marginalized status, but that's not a message coming from the government, it's a message coming from the owner or manager of the store, and that's perfectly OK. (It's not polite, and a store-owner might chose not to do so because she wants as many customers as possible, but that's got nothing to do with secularism.) And before anyone thinks of playing the "oh, so you admit atheism is a religion! Gotcha!" card: I don't see the point of diluting the word "religion" by calling atheism a religion, but it is what John Rawls calls a "comprehensive doctrine." So I can put it this way: a secular society is one in which the state does not play favorites amongst comprehensive doctrines.Kantian Naturalist
November 11, 2012
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A Nativity scene in a shop window is public, because it’s in full view of anyone who happens to be in the vicinity, but it’s not political because... A Nativity scene in front of the town-hall is public, because it’s in full view of anyone who happens to be in the vicinity, but it’s political because...Mung
November 11, 2012
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Speaking as an atheist, if someone tells me that they need faith in order to have meaningful and fulfilling lives, or that they need religion in order to have a firm moral code, I offer no argument and have none to offer. It's only if they start telling me that I need what they have that I start arguing. And very few of them take it upon themselves to say anything like that to me. I count several people of faith among my friends. Further, the whole notion of "secularism" is itself quite complicated. It need not mean that religion has no public expression, but only that religion is separate from the state. This distinction between the public and the political is extremely important, because the very hallmark of totalitarian societies is that there is no such distinction. A republic, a self-limiting state, allows for the public sphere to be distinct from both the strictly personal and the political per se. (Bearing in mind that "republic" comes from res publica, "the public thing".) With that distinction in mind, public displays of religion trouble neither my atheism nor my secularism. It's when religion becomes political (or the other way around) that I get ornery. (A Nativity scene in a shop window is public, because it's in full view of anyone who happens to be in the vicinity, but it's not political. A Nativity scene in front of the town-hall is political.)Kantian Naturalist
November 11, 2012
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What guarantees freedom from the state?
Democracy! I am sure I noticed something about it on the media. Weren't people voting in the US only recently?Alan Fox
November 11, 2012
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Alan Fox:
Atheists are committed to family, loved ones, friends, their community and the wider world; ...
And, from what I've seen, they are committed to imposing their views on those that don’t share their faith.
Guaranteeing secularism is the only honest way to guarantee freedom of religion.
Really. And you know that how? From observing secular experiments in the 20th century? What guarantees freedom from the state?Mung
November 11, 2012
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Barry comments:
The difference is that the former [religious adherents] acknowledge and examine their faith commitments, and the latter [non-theists] often seem unaware that they even have faith commitments (much less subject those commitments to examination) and yet they believe they are more intellectually rigorous.
Are these faith commitments ones that you would wish to impose on those that don't share your faith? Atheists are committed to family, loved ones, friends, their community and the wider world; the more so in the knowledge it is the only world we have. Guaranteeing secularism is the only honest way to guarantee freedom of religion. PS: Thanks, Barry, reinstating my commenting permissions here. If you did that for all UD former sceptical commenters now to be found at TSZ, that might impact on their level of scepticism. PPS What is it about about Crick's central dogma that makes you skeptical?Alan Fox
November 11, 2012
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KN, there is no solution to the Dilemma of the Criterion. It is just another way of demonstrating that first principles must be accepted a priori.
Two points in response: First: if there is no solution to the Dilemma of the Criterion, then there are no first principles which must be accepted a priori. First principles which must be accepted a priori is precisely what are ruled out by the Dilemma. Put otherwise, if there were first principles which were rationally acceptable, then the Dilemma would not even arise in the first place. Second: "necessarily accepted a priori" and "faith commitment" are quite different. To assert something as true, to take it as true -- even to the point of being willing to risk one's life for it -- is not the same as demonstrating that assertion as an unavoidable necessity or starting-point for rational discourse. To be more provocative -- and I understand that I'm being provocative enough as it is, given that this is not my sand-box I'm playing in -- the basic ideas of Arrington's (21) could be re-framed as "hey, everyone is a dogmatist, but at least we're honest about it!" And if you're content to be an honest dogmatist, ok, fine, but that's to accept the Dilemma. If we accept the Dilemma, then there's no third way between dogmatism and skepticism. And if that's right, then there's no reason for choosing one dogmatism over another, and then what we have left is nothing but "might makes right" -- the prevailing dogmatism is the one that has the power. Whereas the whole point of the critique of atheistic materialism, at least as Kairosfocus has been presenting here, is that we must avoid materialism in order to avoid "might makes right". So now it seems that you both accept and deny that "might makes right". Now, embracing skepticism is unpalatable. So the thing to do, it seems to me, is to solve the Dilemma by showing that there's a third way between skepticism and dogmatism. And I actually think that can be done.Kantian Naturalist
November 11, 2012
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KN, there is no solution to the Dilemma of the Criterion. It is just another way of demonstrating that first principles must be accepted a priori. Another of the great ironies of our day is that many non-theists believe they have freed themselves from faith commitments through pure reason and therefore tend to look down their noses at the benighted religious adherents who acknowledge their faith. This is ironic, because when it comes to faith commitments, the difference between religious adherents and non-theists is not that the former have them and the latter do not. The difference is that the former acknowledge and examine their faith commitments, and the latter often seem unaware that they even have faith commitments (much less subject those commitments to examination) and yet they believe they are more intellectually rigorous.Barry Arrington
November 11, 2012
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The one after whom the phrase ‘pyrrhic victory’ ought to have been named?
Ha! Perhaps. Funnily enough, I long assumed that "Pyrrhic victory" was named about Pyrrho, and only just now learned otherwise.Kantian Naturalist
November 11, 2012
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...member of an ancient Greek school that doubted the possibility of real knowledge...the name taken by the disciples of the Greek philosopher Pyrrho... The one after whom the phrase 'pyrrhic victory' ought to have been named?Mung
November 11, 2012
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We should have a test of reason that people are required to take before being allowed to post here. First question, do you have free will? If they answer no, then they can’t continue since all future answers are obviously determined.
What about people who acknowledge the reality of human agency but don't accept libertarian free will as an explanation of agency?Kantian Naturalist
November 11, 2012
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As for what "skepticism" used to really mean . . . skeptic (n.), also sceptic, 1580s, "member of an ancient Greek school that doubted the possibility of real knowledge," from Fr. sceptique, from L. scepticus, from Gk. skeptikos (pl. Skeptikoi "the Skeptics"), lit. "inquiring, reflective," the name taken by the disciples of the Greek philosopher Pyrrho (c.360-c.270 B.C.E.), from skeptesthai "to reflect, look, view" Of the many ancient Skeptical arguments, this one in particular fascinates me: the Dilemma of the Criterion. The question is, given competing knowledge-claims, how are we to adjudicate between them? We would need some criterion by which to do so. But how we establish that criterion?
In order to decide the dispute which has arisen about the criterion of truth, we must possess an accepted criterion by which we shall be able to judge the dispute; and in order to possess an accepted criterion, the dispute about the criterion must first be decided. And when the argument thus reduces itself to a form of circular reasoning the discovery of the criterion becomes impracticable, since we do not allow those who make knowledge claims to adopt a criterion by assumption, while if they offer to judge the criterion by a criterion we force them to a regress ad infinitum. And furthermore, since demonstration requires a demonstrated criterion, while the criterion requires an approved demonstration, they are forced into circular reasoning. (Sextus Empiricus, Outlines of Pyrrhonism)
. Lately I've been reading about how adequately Kant and Hegel deal with the challenge of Pyrrhonian skepticism -- interesting stuff!Kantian Naturalist
November 11, 2012
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The best counselor in cognition is a sincere desire to know truth.
Well said. But whence the desire to know truth?Mung
November 11, 2012
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IOWs, when the academy is divided, conformist thinkers are free to choose. That’s a great comfort, indeed.
And some choose one way and some choose a different way, but free will is just an illusion. And this process is supposed to be reliable. We're supposed to be able to trust it. And all for what, given there is no such thing as truth. We should have a test of reason that people are required to take before being allowed to post here. First question, do you have free will? If they answer no, then they can't continue since all future answers are obviously determined. And who wants to participate in a discussion forum with robots? Funny thing about those who object to the moderation policy here. They obviously think it OUGHT to be different. They think that they are speaking the TRUTH and that the truth OUGHT to be permitted to be spoken without censorship.Mung
November 11, 2012
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I’m not skeptical about evolution – that a process of inheritance with mutation leads inexorably to continual change is about as incontrovertible an idea as I can think of, mathematically, empirically and computationally demonstrable.
Evolution = change.Mung
November 11, 2012
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The ID movement is a big tent and all are welcome. Even agnostics and atheists are not in principle excluded provided they can adopt this open attitude of mind. In practice, however, agnostics and atheists have their minds made up. Agnostics know that nothing is knowable about a transcendent reality. And atheists know that no transcendent reality exists, so again nothing is knowable about it. Accordingly, agnostics and atheists tend not to join the ID movement. Johnson is a radical skeptic, insisting, in the best Socratic tradition, that everything be put on the table for examination. By contrast, most skeptics opposed to him are selective skeptics, applying their skepticism to the things they dislike (notably religion) and refusing to apply their skepticism to the things they do like (notably Darwinism). On two occasions I’ve urged Michael Shermer, publisher of Skeptic Magazine, to put me on its editorial board as the resident skeptic of Darwinism. Though Shermer and I know each other and are quite friendly, he never got back to me about joining his editorial board. ~ William Dembskibevets
November 11, 2012
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I wonder what scepticism one-time chemist, Margaret Thatcher, experienced as she checked out various flavours of ice-cream. An odd thought, I know. 'Here, try this one. What do you think?' A bit like a wine-taster, really. 'This is a really presumptuous little number; cheeky even, amost truculent.'Axel
November 11, 2012
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Thank you for that concise summary, bornagain. It's more than a little helpful to the layman.Axel
November 11, 2012
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Alan Miller: People generally more readily accept ideas that are coherent and have been tested and accepted by the ‘expert consensus’, but are skeptical over notions advanced by laymen. The reasons should be obvious. Yes, it is obvious. Most people are conformists in their way of thinking. But that acceptance is always provisional, and the consensus is not always complete. Many scientists disagree on junk DNA, say, or the hominid tree, and many historical controversies have rumbled on for decades before the conclusive experiments broke the deadlock. IOWs, when the academy is divided, conformist thinkers are free to choose. That's a great comfort, indeed. The essence of science is skepticism. No, the essence of science is a desire to know. Every hypothesis is subjected, frequently by its own proponent, to a battery of logical and empirical investigation to see if it stands up. That's simply critical thinking, not skepticism. All people, except maybe conformist thinkers, express critical thinking. Each one in his own way, not as the academy commands. Every lunchtime research seminar, every paper submitted is subjected to similar, often vigorously dispensed skepticism. Those luchtime research seminars are often filled with critical thinking, good or bad, and many times with true bad skepticism (indeed, IMO skepticism can only be bad). And one can easily distinguish the two things. I’m not skeptical about evolution – that a process of inheritance with mutation leads inexorably to continual change is about as incontrovertible an idea as I can think of, mathematically, empirically and computationally demonstrable. I agree. Why should one be skeptical, or simply critical, of such a trivial statement? Inheritance with mutation exists. It creates continual change. That is really trivial. What do you think genetic diseases are? Whether that mechanism is enough to explain modern forms and their diversity is slightly less clear-cut May I laugh? This is probably the understatement of the century! but I think it is Your free choice. I always respect individual free choices. By the way, my individual free choice tells me that this statement of yours is not trivial at all, and completely false. And in the absence of a better mechanism (and some magic can-do-anything entity out of some fairy story is not a ‘better mechanism’) then I’m afraid I’m far more skeptical about supposed ‘challenges’ to evolution than I am about the ‘mainstream’. Again, your choice. But the problem is not to be skeptical. The problem is that you, like me and everyone else, have to make choices in cognitive problems. That has nothing to do with skepticism. Your choices are the result of your education, moral attitude, intuition, personal experience, desires, previous choices, and, if you believe it, free will. Like mine. Like anyone else's. No skepticism is needed. The best counselor in cognition is a sincere desire to know truth.gpuccio
November 11, 2012
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1) Only minor variations within species have been demonstrated or observed! 2) coded sequential information such as that found in DNA has never been seen to originate from any unguided chemical processes! 3) life reduction experiments clearly show there are NO EXAMPLES of simpler life that evolutionists postulate must have existed to give rise to the functionally complex life we see today! 4) selective breeding only results in trait optimization and distinct limits not new morphological distinction! 5) mutations are a degenerative process that accrues more prohibitively operational damage than it can possibly overcome by any controversial or occasional "good mutation"! 6) Examples of Macro evolution cited by evolutionists are totally within the bounds of a known process called ADAPTATION and do not result in new body plans or body parts that build new function.bornagain77
November 10, 2012
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He continues, and equivocates along the way:
I’m not skeptical about evolution – that a process of inheritance with mutation leads inexorably to continual change is about as incontrovertible an idea as I can think of, mathematically, empirically and computationally demonstrable.
Well Allan, Intelligent Design is NOT an argument against evolution, per se, it is an argument over whether or not evolution is directed or unguided- ie designed or happenstance. Also unguided evolution doesn't have anything to do with math and there isn't any math that supports it. So what the heck are you even talking about? Ya see Allan, if you would take 1/2 of your skeptism and apply it to your position, you would reject it.Joe
November 10, 2012
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semi OT: I think this following speaker does a excellent job of dispelling the radical skepticism that has encroached upon New Testament scholarship:
How Reliable Is the New Testament? - Dan Wallace (publicly debated Bart Ehrman 3 times) - video http://www.watermark.org/media/how-badly-did-the-early-scribes-corrupt-the-new-testament/2305/
bornagain77
November 10, 2012
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And Allan Miller steps right up and supports what I posted:
People generally more readily accept ideas that are coherent and have been tested and accepted by the ‘expert consensus’, but are skeptical over notions advanced by laymen.
I wonder how Allan is defining the word "tested". Every time I ask for a test all I get is "it takes millions upon millions of years" or "tests" that assume what needs to be tested. So that would explain why the majority of people reject unguided evolution as an explanation for our existence.Joe
November 10, 2012
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The people who, invariably in a proud, even self-gratulatory manner, claim to be sceptical, in that general sense, seem to absolutely personify the adage that a little knowledge is dangerous. On the other hand, the really famous pioneers and paradigm-changers of science seem prone to go in the other direction, lauding imagination, faith and an openness to the new and as yet, unconceived. A strange duo: the first, insisting proudly on their status as myrmidons and menials; the second, as intellectually open and curious as a young child, instinctively aware and confident of their own critical faculties, and certainly not grandstanding over the shibboleth of a pathological scepticism.Axel
November 10, 2012
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It takes great courage and intellect to go against the darwin mafia and expose them and their 'theory' for what it is, unfortunately not everyone has those qualities. Don't be afraid to speak the truth in science...if more people did, the darwin mafia would crumble! Kudos to UD for being a bright light in a world clouded by darwin's myth.Blue_Savannah
November 10, 2012
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No, no, no, no, no. Skeptics are never skeptical about the mainstream. If it is mainstream then it is a fact and that is that. And nobody is skeptical about facts. Might as well be skeptical that 1+1=2. OTOH being skeptical about something that is not mainstream is quite the norm and whoever isn't skeptical about fringe ideas isn't normal and we don't have to listen to them. I hope that clears up why the "skeptics" are not skeptical about the theory of evolution.Joe
November 10, 2012
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Barry: I couldn't agree more. I must say that I despise skepticism in all its forms, even in its supposed general sense. I cannot find any real good meaning to the word. Obviously, we all try to express critical thinking, and to form reasonable maps of the world, using our reason, our feeling, our intuition, our experience, our love. Each of us makes different choices, and that is simply to be expected. And respected. So, what would a "general skeptical" be? Someone who will never believe anything? Or just someone who believes what he chooses to believe, exactly like anybody else, but likes to think and declare that he is better than all the others, because his choices are "skeptical", whatever that means? I try to reason and understand, but I will never be skeptical. About anything. Why? Because I try to reason and understand. Like everybody. And I make my choices. Like everybody. So, skepticism is really nothing, only an expression of generic arrogance in cognition. Selective skepticism is always the only visible expression of skepticism. Those who want not to believe certain things a priori, will be bound to believe other things a priori, just to compensate. The success of "skepticism" in some parts of modern though is a very strong sign of the cognitive and moral confusion of our times. It is in no way comforting that many of these "skeptics" are essentially intelligent and good people. For me, that is only a cause of personal sadness.gpuccio
November 10, 2012
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