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At Evolution News: Günter Bechly repudiates “Professor Dave’s” attacks against ID

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Günter Bechly, Senior Fellow of the Center for Science and Culture, addresses the off-base accusations made against ID and the Discovery Institute.

Dave Farina is an atheist American YouTuber who runs a channel called Professor Dave Explains with almost two million subscribers.

The clichés and misrepresentations Farina recycles about intelligent design are beyond tired. Still, those new to the debate might find it helpful to see Farina’s false claims debunked.

Farina seems more interested in caricaturing those he disagrees with than understanding them.

Three Major Problems 

Farina also thinks that intelligent design theory “cannot be validated as real science because it does not explain or predict anything.” Here are three major problems with this statement:

Who defines what qualifies as “real science”? It is certainly not Dave Farina. It is not judges in court rooms. And it is not even the scientists themselves who define “science.” Reasonably, it is philosophers of science who address this question. But Farina seems to be totally ignorant of the fact that there is no consensus among philosophers of science about a demarcation criterion that could reliably distinguish science from non-science. Any criterion yet suggested, including Karl Popper’s criterion of falsifiability, either excludes too much (e.g., scientific fields like string theory or evolutionary biology) or includes too much (e.g., homeopathy or parapsychology).

Of course, intelligent design has explanatory power. Otherwise, we could not even explain the existence of Romeo and Juliet by the intelligent agency of William Shakespeare. There is no doubt that the designing activity of an intelligent agent is a perfectly valid explanation for complex specified patterns. The only question under debate is whether such patterns are confined to the realm of human cultural artifacts or if they are also found in nature. But this question should not be decided by dogmatic a priorirestrictions of certain worldviews that do not allow for design explanations whatever the evidence might be, but should rather follow the evidence wherever it leads. It is an empirical question to be decided by the data.

It is simply false that intelligent design does not predict anything. Indeed, this is yet another common stereotype that has been refuted so many times by ID proponents that any further use of this argument can be based only on a total ignorance of the facts (or perhaps deliberate lying, but I prefer not to apply that interpretation). Stephen Meyer (2009) included in his book Signature in the Cell a whole chapter with a dozen predictions inspired by intelligent design theory. These are often very precise and easily falsifiable, for example: “No undirected process will demonstrate the capacity to generate 500 bits of new [specified] information starting from a nonbiological source.” Just write a computer simulation that achieves this, without smuggling the information in through a backdoor, and you can claim victory over a core prediction of intelligent design.

Evolution News

Dr. Bechly addresses numerous additional misfires attempted by Professor Dave. With such a voluble spray of baseless accusations coming from someone like Professor Dave, it can be helpful to be reminded of the proverb, “Like a sparrow in its flitting, like a swallow in its flying, a curse that is causeless does not alight.” (Proverbs 26:2)

Comments
“STDs are just diseases that are primarily transmitted by sexual activity” Duh, and they are harmful and to the point ,one need not appeal to religious beliefs to say they are. .”There are other diseases that are spread by specific activities but nobody talks about banning them. “ Nor did I talk about banning them nor was your question about “banning” it was about harm, way to change the subject , predictable. “Some require physical contact, yet we continue to hug and shake hands” So what? This has nothing to do with the topic and just a diversion, always throw chaff when all else fails. “ but we never claim that the activities themself are wrong. “ I did not make a moral argument , I pointed out how they are harmful without appealing to religious beliefs which was what you asked for. “STDs are easily preventable by use of condoms yet the reaction by many is to say that premarital sex is wrong,” The topic is what is harmful without appealing to religious beliefs, please stay on topic. “ rather than to say that the use of condoms is good.” The use of condoms is good. “Homosexuality and premarital sex are no more harmful than going to church.” I wish you could tell this to my brother.I have personal and tragic first hand experience that this is BS. I wish my brother were alive today but he died a horrible death due to AIDS. Vividvividbleau
July 10, 2022
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VB: OMG did not know one could get STDs by going to church, surely you can do better?
STDs are just diseases that are primarily transmitted by sexual activity. There are other diseases that are spread by specific activities but nobody talks about banning them. Some require physical contact, yet we continue to hug and shake hands. Some are spread as aerosols, yet we continue to go to church and sporting events. When risks are very high for either of these we may temporarily change our behaviour but we never claim that the activities themself are wrong. STDs are easily preventable by use of condoms yet the reaction by many is to say that premarital sex is wrong, rather than to say that the use of condoms is good. Homosexuality and premarital sex are no more harmful than going to church.JHolo
July 10, 2022
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“So, again, what is there to discuss?” The frozen accident I guess? Vividvividbleau
July 9, 2022
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Fred Hickson:
If Jblais wants to carry Upright Biped’s torch, I’m happy to continue the discussion around aminoacyl tRNA synthetases.
What's to discuss? We are still waiting for any evidence for any RNA world. We are still waiting for any evidence that this alleged RNA world could lead to DNA-based life. The fact is there isn't any evidence that RNA is a precursor to DNA-based life. So, again, what is there to discuss?ET
July 9, 2022
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JVL, >What was [Kauffman's] alternative hypothesis? Don't remember. It was of course a naturalistic hypothesis. My point was that a secular researcher rejected a particular naturalistic hypothesis on an improbability-based argument, without waiting millions of years. If arguments of that type are good enough for someone with his credentials, why can't everyone use them? >Again, are you saying that ID is strictly an historical science? No, only in part. I also spoke of the inability to observe complexity forming today in the absence of intelligence, and so on, as many are trying to point out to you in this very thread. >how long are you willing to wait to see if unguided, natural processes are sufficient? I have to decide what to think within my lifetime. Even secular scientists don't wait millions of years to make up their minds. >it seems to me that there is absolutely no way that natural processes can have conceivably be ruled out. Not in 150 years. No way. That's when one has to employ probabilities to decide what to favor. That's what they are for. One does not have to wait millions of years. One can do math on probabilities to see what processes can or cannot likely do over larger time spans than what we can directly observe.EDTA
July 9, 2022
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“1) Aids, HIV. By this argument, attending church is harmful. “ OMG did not know one could get STDs by going to church, surely you can do better? The rest of your rebuttal is just as nonsensical and irrelevant.. Vividvividbleau
July 9, 2022
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VB: JHolo: Maybe you can try to explain why homosexuality, same sex marriage, masturbation, transgender, premarital sex, etc are harmful. And see if you can do it without imposing religious beliefs.” 1) Aids, HIV. By this argument, attending church is harmful. 2)Addiction to pornography and the degradation of women. None of these cause the addiction to porn and the degradation of women. 3) There is no trans anything it’s a mental illness, gender dysphoria.The brain structure and activity of the transgendered brain more closely resembles that of their identified gender than their biological sex. 4) STDs See number 1. 5) Unwanted pregnancy. Married, monogamous couples also have unwanted pregnancies. 6) A mans ass hole was not meant for a man’s penis.If a consensual couple want to use it for pleasure, just as opposite sex couples use their hands and mouths do, what harm are they causing. You may think it is repulsive, but who cares? 7) The obliteration of women as a distinct class. It’s strange, but I don’t see any shortage of women because we accept homosexuality, transgender, same sex marriage or masturbation.
JHolo
July 9, 2022
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Prediction: He’ll be back
Didn’t take long for this prediction to come true.jerry
July 9, 2022
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“Maybe you can try to explain why homosexuality, same sex marriage, masturbation, transgender, premarital sex, etc are harmful. And see if you can do it without imposing religious beliefs.” 1) Aids, HIV. 2)Addiction to pornography and the degradation of women. 3) There is no trans anything it’s a mental illness, gender dysphoria. 4) STDs 5) Unwanted pregnancy 6) A mans ass hole was not meant for a man’s penis. 7) The obliteration of women as a distinct class. Vividvividbleau
July 9, 2022
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If Jblais wants to carry Upright Biped's torch, I'm happy to continue the discussion around aminoacyl tRNA synthetases.Fred Hickson
July 9, 2022
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ET at 924 "Proteins. The genetic code pertains to the building of proteins. Cells come from cells. And the genetic code definitely doesn’t determine biological form. The genetic code pertains to transcription and translation, ie the rules for taking the source code in DNA and producing the object code in a functioning protein, ie a specified polypeptide." Yes thanks, I agree with all you said. I should have said something more like: the genetic code is a programming language that is necessary to build the protein structures of living cells or living organisms.Jblais
July 9, 2022
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JVL, I am pointing out the testability, tested status, and successful track record of prediction. The strawman caricature of the design inference, design theory and design supporters collapses. As you knew from the outset as you have been here at UD all along and know when these issues were discussed thoroughly, especially surrounding the explanatory filter. KFkairosfocus
July 9, 2022
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JH: Still playing the strawman caricature game, I see. Okay:
1: You are objecting that in effect I am failing at truth and right reason, thus warrant. That is already a case where objectors appeal to the very first duties that they wish to overturn. 2: In fact, that is my key point, that the Ciceronian first duties of reason are so pervasive that thoise who try to object find themselves appealing to what they would overturn, just to gain some persuasive effect or apparent plausibility. 3: Similarly, one who would try to prove same is already appealing to same. 4: So, we see the marks of branch on which we all sit, first principle truths. 5: First principles, antecedent to objections and to attempted proofs or argument, i.e. these first principles govern rational life including argument. 6: So, we immediately see that they are self evident, as once one understands, one sees they are so and must be so as the attempt to deny is instantly and manifestly absurd. 7: Where, notice, at no point have I invoked a sacred text or tradition or claim, I am pointing to an epistemological-logical pattern that is readily evident. 8: Self evident degree of warrant, so knowable and objective, antecedent to any debates over ontological roots of the world. 9: All of this has been pointed out in your presence many times and you are a sufficiently experienced and educated person to recognise that, so there is no excuse for your attempt to set up and knock over a strawman. 10: Which, of course, is a case in point of disregard for truth, right reason and sound warrant. 11: Sad, but at this point utterly unsurprising.
So, we find ourselves as morally governed creatures, with duties to truth, right reason, warrant and wider prudence etc. This, on the basis of common experience, accessible to any who would but inquire into the matter. Thus, this is a cluster of self evident truth, independent of any particular worldview or tradition. (And, historically, it comes to us from a Stoic, summarising the Greco-Roman understanding of base law. yes, it is endorsed by Christians, but that is only a matter of acknowledging self evident truth, as far as that goes.) Yes, as self evident truth, it raises serious questions about the roots of reality in which we find an actual world with such responsible, rational, significantly free and morally governed creatures in it. That is onward, the cart has been put before the horse in your strawman caricature. So, we are back to the issue of whether you and others of like mind are willing to acknowledge that we have such duties to truth, right reason, warrant etc. If you so fear ontological issues that you are unwilling to acknowledge such, that speaks, and not in your favour. KFkairosfocus
July 9, 2022
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JVL:
That’s the other part of the design inference that I find faulty: it seems to me that there is absolutely no way that natural processes can have conceivably be ruled out.
Your scientific illiteracy is showing, again. There is absolutely no evidence that natural processes can produce the coded information processing system involved with the genetic code. We don't have to rule out something that doesn't have any evidentiary support. So, we rule them out to the best of our ability using our current knowledge of cause-and-effect relationships.ET
July 9, 2022
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I’m just trying to figure out why, if ID is a science, that it can’t provide a test or experiment of an ID prediction, something that can be reproduced by many different observers
Provided just a short time ago (less than five hours) and ignored as predicted. And my prediction for disingenuous comments is still 100% accurate.jerry
July 9, 2022
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JVL:
I’m just trying to figure out why, if ID is a science, that it can’t provide a test or experiment of an ID prediction, something that can be reproduced by many different observers. What is wrong with that?
You don't know how to read for comprehension. You have been given what you have asked for.ET
July 9, 2022
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EDTA: Some things, such as questions of a historical nature, can’t be tested in the same way that we test other claims, such as questions of physics. There are different kinds of knowledge, and with each comes different degrees of certaint(ies). This is important to note. Yes, there is a difference between historical sciences and things like physics. Does that mean you think that ID is strictly a historic science OR do you think that ID has something to say about stuff that is happening now? If the latter then why is it not fair to ask for a demonstration of ID having an effect in the present? This means that testability (like our earlier comments on “making predictions”) is not a universal criterion of all types of scientific inquiry. Even in archaeology there are people who do actual experiments to see if the deposits they discover could have been produced by a given process. Stuart Kauffman, in his book “At Home in the Universe”, reasoned that an RNA-first world was too improbable, and rejected it merely for that reason. Was he being unscientific at that moment? What was his alternative hypothesis? Well if we want a form of testability for past events, then we can fall back on our present-day observations that 1) intelligent agents can create massive amounts of functioning complexity, and 2) that blind processes (once we have successfully located and subtracted out the intelligent inputs from the researchers) are unable to create anywhere near the same amount, I don’t see anything unscientific about reaching a conclusion. An uncountable number of confirming observations, and not a single dis-confirming one, is good enough for me. Again, are you saying that ID is strictly an historical science? Also, considering that the consensus scientific opinion is that some effects took millions of years to come about how long are you willing to wait to see if unguided, natural processes are sufficient? That's the other part of the design inference that I find faulty: it seems to me that there is absolutely no way that natural processes can have conceivably be ruled out. Not in 150 years. No way.JVL
July 9, 2022
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Kairosfocus: you keep repeating why you think there is design in nature while I am asking a different question. If you're not going to actually pay attention to what someone is trying to discuss then why bother replying?JVL
July 9, 2022
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ET: Seeing that JVL is just a quote-mining and scientifically illiterate fool, no answers will ever be good enough. I'm just trying to figure out why, if ID is a science, that it can't provide a test or experiment of an ID prediction, something that can be reproduced by many different observers. What is wrong with that?JVL
July 9, 2022
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I wish you well wherever your journeys take you.
Prediction: He'll be back. But this is one prediction where I hope I am wrong.jerry
July 9, 2022
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FH
Thanks for being such patient listeners and best wishes for the future.
I'll give you this - you didn't do anything worthy of getting banned here again, so that's a positive step. However, you're intransigent in your position and nothing has been able to help you accept the design inference. Proposing an absurdly improbable "frozen accident" instead of recognizing the work of intelligence is simply not a reasonable response.l In any case, I wish you well wherever your journeys take you.Silver Asiatic
July 9, 2022
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Sorry, autocorrect mangled my last sentence. What I meant to say was “ Whether my expectations on others are met or not depends on them and on the perceived value of my expectations to them.”JHolo
July 9, 2022
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JF: Do you understand yourself to be duty and even honour bound to truth, right reason, prudence including warrant, sound conscience, neighbour, so too fairness and justice?
No. At least not it the way you envision it. I.e., as devinely imposed duties, or duties that exist outside of the human individual. We have been all over this before but you have not made any attempt to understand those who disagree with you. I, as an individual, have imposed rules (duties) on my behaviour that I have found to be in my best interest of myself and those I wish to associate with, over the short and long term. As such, I have expectations of others that I choose to associate with. Whether my expectations on others are met or. It depends on them and on the perceived value of my expectations to them.JHolo
July 9, 2022
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JVL @ 934, Thank you for your reply.
But how do you know if your inference is correct unless you can test it? Look, if ID is science then what science is it doing?
Some things, such as questions of a historical nature, can't be tested in the same way that we test other claims, such as questions of physics. There are different kinds of knowledge, and with each comes different degrees of certaint(ies). This is important to note. This means that testability (like our earlier comments on "making predictions") is not a universal criterion of all types of scientific inquiry. So if I cannot directly test a historical claim (like how something formed in the distant past), but can determine that one alternative has a probability so low that the universe can't have tried enough possibilities on its own, I am warranted in favoring a different alternative. Even non-ID folks use this kind of reasoning. Stuart Kauffman, in his book "At Home in the Universe", reasoned that an RNA-first world was too improbable, and rejected it merely for that reason. Was he being unscientific at that moment?
I don’t think you’re being scientific by just saying: ooo, such and such looks too improbable to have come about via unguided processes.
Well if we want a form of testability for past events, then we can fall back on our present-day observations that 1) intelligent agents can create massive amounts of functioning complexity, and 2) that blind processes (once we have successfully located and subtracted out the intelligent inputs from the researchers) are unable to create anywhere near the same amount, I don't see anything unscientific about reaching a conclusion. An uncountable number of confirming observations, and not a single dis-confirming one, is good enough for me. But there are research opportunities and fame here for you if you can demonstrate otherwise.EDTA
July 9, 2022
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JVL, we just -- again -- discussed a case in point, text generation as part of an OP and you were present. OoL is a classic study, and the challenge there is to get to encapsulated, smart gated, metabolising entities with kinematic self replication. This last brings up coded information storage and execution machinery for algorithms. These and the like are not mysterious. FSCO/I is a fairly common phenomenon and we have observed trillions of cases of origin; without exception, intelligently directed configuration. You know the blind needle in haystack search challenge. You also know the per aspect design inference explanatory filter and its TWO defaults, I: lawlike mechanical necessity [explains low contingency results] and II: blind chance [explains high contingency but not HC with detachable simple specification, esp by function]. When these fail for complexity beyond 500 - 1,000 bits, we are warranted to infer the known consistent cause of such FSCO/I, intelligently directed configuration. Design is not a default assumption nor a stand in for unknown cause, not with trillions of cases in point consistently. KFkairosfocus
July 9, 2022
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Seeing that JVL is just a quote-mining and scientifically illiterate fool, no answers will ever be good enough. And JVL will NEVER present anything for evolution by means of blind and mindless processes.ET
July 9, 2022
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Fred Hickson:
Is that UB abandoning his hypothesis?
No, Alan. He is leaving a useless discussion with you, a useless human.ET
July 9, 2022
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Fred Hickson:
Just because I can’t supply a ready answer does not mean I should throw in the towel and default to the non-explanation of “Design!”.
You are an idiot, Alan. Buy a dictionary and learn what the word "default" means. We reach the design inference after considering other options. And design is a great explanation- ask archaeologists and forensic scientists. Why do you think your ignorance of science and reality mean something?
I’ve yet to experience one, nor have I heard convincing evidence for such a thing.
Only a miracle would have nature producing coded information processing systems.
I prefer the simpler approach that if we don’t know something we can look for an answer.
All you "know" is how to lie and bluff.ET
July 9, 2022
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Kairosfocus: the key prediction is that this principle will continue to hold, and to test and overturn it in future [it has already been tested on trillions of cases to get to here] all that is required is to produce a single reliable case of blind chance and or mechanical necessity per actual observation producing FSCO/I beyond 500 to 1,000 bits of complexity. So, your test of ID is actually a test of unguided processes? What kind of evidence of the above would you accept? In other words, what kind of experiment or test of blind chance or mechanical necessity would change your mind?JVL
July 9, 2022
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JVL, you have been here for years, and you know better. Please, do better. You know that the design inference is an application of scientific abductive reasoning, inferring a best explanation on tested, reliable patterns, that functionally specific complex organisation and associated information [FSCO/I] on trillions of cases, reliably comes from intelligently directed configuration. There are no actually observed exceptions and blind needle in haystack search challenge in large configuration spaces sufficient to exhaust atomic resources of the sol system or observed cosmos readily shows why. As with the closely related statistical form of the second law of thermodynamics, the key prediction is that this principle will continue to hold, and to test and overturn it in future [it has already been tested on trillions of cases to get to here] all that is required is to produce a single reliable case of blind chance and or mechanical necessity per actual observation producing FSCO/I beyond 500 to 1,000 bits of complexity. That was tried many times in the past here at UD and elsewhere, but the attempts failed. Instead of acknowledging the point, rhetorical tactics were shifted, including the willful distortion that the design inference is untested, is incapable of being tested or makes no predictions. Fail. KFkairosfocus
July 9, 2022
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