Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

At Evolution News: Günter Bechly repudiates “Professor Dave’s” attacks against ID

Categories
Intelligent Design
worldview
Share
Facebook
Twitter/X
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

Günter Bechly, Senior Fellow of the Center for Science and Culture, addresses the off-base accusations made against ID and the Discovery Institute.

Dave Farina is an atheist American YouTuber who runs a channel called Professor Dave Explains with almost two million subscribers.

The clichés and misrepresentations Farina recycles about intelligent design are beyond tired. Still, those new to the debate might find it helpful to see Farina’s false claims debunked.

Farina seems more interested in caricaturing those he disagrees with than understanding them.

Three Major Problems 

Farina also thinks that intelligent design theory “cannot be validated as real science because it does not explain or predict anything.” Here are three major problems with this statement:

Who defines what qualifies as “real science”? It is certainly not Dave Farina. It is not judges in court rooms. And it is not even the scientists themselves who define “science.” Reasonably, it is philosophers of science who address this question. But Farina seems to be totally ignorant of the fact that there is no consensus among philosophers of science about a demarcation criterion that could reliably distinguish science from non-science. Any criterion yet suggested, including Karl Popper’s criterion of falsifiability, either excludes too much (e.g., scientific fields like string theory or evolutionary biology) or includes too much (e.g., homeopathy or parapsychology).

Of course, intelligent design has explanatory power. Otherwise, we could not even explain the existence of Romeo and Juliet by the intelligent agency of William Shakespeare. There is no doubt that the designing activity of an intelligent agent is a perfectly valid explanation for complex specified patterns. The only question under debate is whether such patterns are confined to the realm of human cultural artifacts or if they are also found in nature. But this question should not be decided by dogmatic a priorirestrictions of certain worldviews that do not allow for design explanations whatever the evidence might be, but should rather follow the evidence wherever it leads. It is an empirical question to be decided by the data.

It is simply false that intelligent design does not predict anything. Indeed, this is yet another common stereotype that has been refuted so many times by ID proponents that any further use of this argument can be based only on a total ignorance of the facts (or perhaps deliberate lying, but I prefer not to apply that interpretation). Stephen Meyer (2009) included in his book Signature in the Cell a whole chapter with a dozen predictions inspired by intelligent design theory. These are often very precise and easily falsifiable, for example: “No undirected process will demonstrate the capacity to generate 500 bits of new [specified] information starting from a nonbiological source.” Just write a computer simulation that achieves this, without smuggling the information in through a backdoor, and you can claim victory over a core prediction of intelligent design.

Evolution News

Dr. Bechly addresses numerous additional misfires attempted by Professor Dave. With such a voluble spray of baseless accusations coming from someone like Professor Dave, it can be helpful to be reminded of the proverb, “Like a sparrow in its flitting, like a swallow in its flying, a curse that is causeless does not alight.” (Proverbs 26:2)

Comments
Just another fascinating fact. There are 64 possible codon sequences (four cubed) and all mean something. 61 code for an amino-acid, of which there are twenty, plus three stop codons. That means there should be 64 tRNAs to cover for the redundancy (some amino-acids have four alternative codons). But there aren't. In humans, there are fifteen missing.Fred Hickson
July 8, 2022
July
07
Jul
8
08
2022
12:43 PM
12
12
43
PM
PST
KF: JH, disregard for truth and for facts that are well established, as you know, goes way beyond mere disagreement.
You well know that posting thousands of convoluted phrases, repeatedly, does not constitute truth and facts. The fact that you can’t separate differences of opinion from lies speaks volumes. And not in your favour. For example, I accept that we differ on the issues of abortion, homosexuality, same sex marriage, transgendered, premarital sex, masturbation and other issues. And I am fine with that. Constructive disagreement and discussion makes for a healthy society. In fact, any society that doesn’t have fundamental and respectful disagreements is one that is dictatorial and oppressive. But, and please don’t take this in the wrong way, but you have shown that you are not capable of having vibrant, fundamental and constructive disagreements. Whenever I or anyone else disagrees with you, you pull out the strawman, red herring, ad hominem, nihilist, speaking in disregard to truth, sitting on the branch, heading over the Cliff, rhetorical talking points nonsense. But this is off topic and getting in to personality flaws, which I don’t want to do. I hope you have a good weekend.JHolo
July 8, 2022
July
07
Jul
8
08
2022
12:23 PM
12
12
23
PM
PST
The complex complexity of complex things is complex. And people can post complex things and say, ‘I don’t understand’ and avoid being clear about anything
That’s usually called incoherence or gobbledygook. For those interested in complexity, the Great Courses has their course on it on sale today $12.95 https://www.thegreatcourses.com/courses/understanding-complexity Aside: even the most complex reality can usually be explained in a short paragraph with clear declarative sentences. Obviously fuller understanding takes more in-depth analysis.jerry
July 8, 2022
July
07
Jul
8
08
2022
12:20 PM
12
12
20
PM
PST
JB, thanks for weighing in. KFkairosfocus
July 8, 2022
July
07
Jul
8
08
2022
12:02 PM
12
12
02
PM
PST
JH, disregard for truth and for facts that are well established, as you know, goes way beyond mere disagreement. And that way beyond is, sadly, what we have been seeing. When even Wikipedia's editors cannot dodge a point, and when we see DNA being seriously investigated towards use as archival store, that should be telling us something. KFkairosfocus
July 8, 2022
July
07
Jul
8
08
2022
11:59 AM
11
11
59
AM
PST
Q, we are seeing FH's goose being plucked above, and we are seeing his attempts to deflect. They fail. KFkairosfocus
July 8, 2022
July
07
Jul
8
08
2022
11:55 AM
11
11
55
AM
PST
Bornagain77 at 896 Perry Marshall is a very wise guy. He understood things about biology that many biologists never will...Jblais
July 8, 2022
July
07
Jul
8
08
2022
11:49 AM
11
11
49
AM
PST
"Well, how else does the specific aaRS bind to the specific amino-acid? How else does the tRNA get tagged on to the appropriate amino-acid? It’s by shape, charge etc so molecules fit their binding sites." Ah, I think I now see where the confusion comes from. Of course molecules bind according to stereochemical properties. But you see, in the case of the genetic code, you need to explain why a codon is associated with an amino acid and not another. As you said yourself previously, its arbitrary. This arbitrariness is unknown in any other area of chemistry. And you can't invoke stereochemistry to explain it because they never directly bind to each other if left alone. In order to do so, they need a specific "machine/adaptor" that will plug them together. As I said, the stereochemical hypothesis (that codons and amino acids correspondance in the genetic code is due to chemical necessity) for the origin of the genetic code is not considered a plausible hypothesis by most authors in the litterature since there is little if any evidence in its favor.Jblais
July 8, 2022
July
07
Jul
8
08
2022
11:43 AM
11
11
43
AM
PST
Jblais, since you, (and UB), are in a somewhat similar position, I think you might find this amusing.
DNA proves the existence of God - Perry Marshall - Aug 5, 2011 For 5 years and counting, I have successfully advanced the Information Theory argument for Intelligent Design on Infidels, the world's largest Atheist discussion forum.,,, My Central Thesis 1) DNA IS NOT MERELY A MOLECULE WITH A PATTERN; IT IS A CODE, A LANGUAGE, AND AN INFORMATION STORAGE MECHANISM. 2) ALL CODES ARE CREATED BY A CONSCIOUS MIND; THERE IS NO NATURAL PROCESS KNOWN TO SCIENCE THAT CREATES CODED INFORMATION. 3) THEREFORE DNA WAS DESIGNED BY A MIND. IF YOU CAN PROVIDE AN EMPIRICAL EXAMPLE OF A CODE OR LANGUAGE THAT OCCURS NATURALLY, YOU'VE TOPPLED MY PROOF. ALL YOU NEED IS ONE. The discussion continued for more than 4 months and 300 posts. At the end, nearly all participants dropped out, having failed to topple my proof or produce any new objections that had not already been addressed. In the course of a very detailed and vigorous discussion my argument did not suffer the slightest injury.,,, On this discussion board I rigorously demonstrated that an Intelligent Designer is the only available explanation for the genetic code in DNA. I did so in the same manner that we assert the truth of other scientific theorems, like the laws of thermodynamics. But I couldn't get a congregation of hard-core atheists to accept it – which goes to show that Dale Carnegie was right: "A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still." Here, atheists show themselves to be just as devout in their beliefs, and just as steadfast in the face of reason, as the adherents of any world religion. https://www.vina.cc/2011/08/05/dna-proves-the-existence-of-god/
Of note, Perry Marshall has now organized a 10 million dollar prize for anyone who can prove that unguided processes can create a code
Evolution 2.0 Prize: Unprecedented $10 Million Offered To Replicate Cellular Evolution - 2020 An incentive prize ten times the size of the Nobel – believed to be the largest single award ever in basic science – is being offered to the person or team solving the largest mystery in history: how genetic code inside cells got there, and how cells intentionally self-organize, communicate, then purposely adapt. This $10 million challenge, the Evolution 2.0 Prize can be found at www.evo2.org. https://www.prnewswire.com/in/news-releases/evolution-2-0-prize-unprecedented-10-million-offered-to-replicate-cellular-evolution-875038146.html Callenge Overview https://www.herox.com/evolution2.0?_ga=2.82975894.1477751053.1657306080-395362688.1657114367
bornagain77
July 8, 2022
July
07
Jul
8
08
2022
11:43 AM
11
11
43
AM
PST
FH at 894, When all else fails, bring up "the Catholic God." Uh huh. Try to stay on topic...relatd
July 8, 2022
July
07
Jul
8
08
2022
11:37 AM
11
11
37
AM
PST
Relatd, I thought you said the Catholic God was the answer to everything.Fred Hickson
July 8, 2022
July
07
Jul
8
08
2022
11:35 AM
11
11
35
AM
PST
I am developing a theory. Complex complexity cannot be explained here because some people don't want to. Why? I suspect it's to cause confusion as opposed to finding actual answers to actual questions. That's not a good thing for any actual discussion.relatd
July 8, 2022
July
07
Jul
8
08
2022
11:32 AM
11
11
32
AM
PST
That’s one of the amazing facts about this process. There’s no physical interface. This drives a steamroller through the idea of stereochemical matching.
This is the interesting part of the discussion. But you are not following closely. Nobody, certainly not me, is arguing for a direct stereochemical link between codon and tRNA. The association is completely arbitrary.Fred Hickson
July 8, 2022
July
07
Jul
8
08
2022
11:32 AM
11
11
32
AM
PST
Upright Biped @837,
If so, please provide an example of another system known to the physical sciences that uses that architecture – one that does not entail language.
Interesting point. Genetics is not merely "analogous" to computer programming, but it IS programming, just employing different means to capture designed responses and relationships. Both genetic and computer programming is done by means of a "language," which itself consists of higher and lower level communication including, in the case of computer programming, direct, non-symbolic, mechanistic manipulation of bits in the form of charges and magnetic domains. Is this also true of genetic programming? The existence and efficacy of programmable biological computers makes the point: https://www.online-sciences.com/computer/biological-computers-mechanism-uses-pros-and-cons/ Animals are extremely sensitive to postures, actions, sounds and smells that are sometimes symbolic, sometimes not. No dog trainer doubts that dogs have a language. So, back to your challenge. In the physical sciences, shapes interact with one another. For example, a fallen tree can form a first-class lever with a boulder as the fulcrum. This can happen naturally and spontaneously. The 1948 Omega Seamaster calendar watch on my wrist contains many interacting shapes, including levers. But does its design constitute a language? I would say, yes. The complex workings of my watch includes several behaviors embodied in subassemblies, including advancing the date and automatic mechanical winding. The types of mechanical behaviors in each of them likely come from a "library" (or dictionary) of mechanisms. The mechanical programming of my watch includes advancing the date every two complete revolutions of the hour hand and my ability to quickly advance the date by moving the minute hand back to 15 minutes before midnight several times in succession. The comparison of a first-class lever formed naturally by accident is comparable to my watch only by kind, not by degree or amount of information. Of course, this doesn't address natural or artificial selection. This could be simulated in a mechanical environment on a vibration table and a patient technician ready to fish out the reassembled watch. One might try to make the case that any misassembled subassemblies should be fished out and disassembled as well. -QQuerius
July 8, 2022
July
07
Jul
8
08
2022
11:30 AM
11
11
30
AM
PST
FH at 889, Hey buddy! I got yer RNA World right here!relatd
July 8, 2022
July
07
Jul
8
08
2022
11:30 AM
11
11
30
AM
PST
...no such stereochemical relations between codons/anticodons and amino acids currently exists because they don’t even come in physical contact with each other when they bind to their aaRS.
I agree. I think UB also agrees. The connection seems arbitrary, a frozen accident, perhaps. Impossible to, explain in evolutionary terms if we need everything to happen at once. In the RNA world scenario, however...Fred Hickson
July 8, 2022
July
07
Jul
8
08
2022
11:28 AM
11
11
28
AM
PST
“The interesting bit is the arbitrary connection between aminoacid docking and tRNA charging by the aaRSs.”
Yes ! Not only is this the interesting bit, it’s also the bit that’s obviously not stereochemical and that needs to be explained because that’s what defines the code. That’s precisely what stands in need of explanation !
Well, how else does the specific aaRS bind to the specific amino-acid? How else does the tRNA get tagged on to the appropriate amino-acid? It's by shape, charge etc so molecules fit their binding sites. I call that stereochemistry. UB uses the word "physicochemical" affinity.Fred Hickson
July 8, 2022
July
07
Jul
8
08
2022
11:23 AM
11
11
23
AM
PST
Jerry at 886, Don't you understand? The complex complexity of complex things is complex. And people can post complex things and say, 'I don't understand' and avoid being clear about anything.relatd
July 8, 2022
July
07
Jul
8
08
2022
11:14 AM
11
11
14
AM
PST
I predict no discussion progress will be made
It would be a first on UD if it did. The best description of this site is "Much Ado About Nothing." Aside: not completely true. On rare occasions something interesting is said.jerry
July 8, 2022
July
07
Jul
8
08
2022
11:10 AM
11
11
10
AM
PST
FH at 881, Keep using those twenty dollar words. You seem to get a kick out of it. Otherwise, I predict no discussion progress will be made - the evidence is overwhelming.relatd
July 8, 2022
July
07
Jul
8
08
2022
11:08 AM
11
11
08
AM
PST
"The interesting bit is the arbitrary connection between aminoacid docking and tRNA charging by the aaRSs." Yes ! Not only is this the interesting bit, it's also the bit that's obviously not stereochemical and that needs to be explained because that's what defines the code. That's precisely what stands in need of explanation !Jblais
July 8, 2022
July
07
Jul
8
08
2022
11:02 AM
11
11
02
AM
PST
"It is still stereochemistry. " Wrong. Read the litterature about the genetic code. The stereochemical hypothesis has never been found to explain the genetic code. For that to be the case, codons/anticodons and the amino acids they specifiy would need to bind by chemical neccessity. No one has ever found any evidence that this is the case. As I said, in all living cells found on the planet today, no such stereochemical relations between codons/anticodons and amino acids currently exists because they don't even come in physical contact with each other when they bind to their aaRS. Some people have speculated that such stereochemical relation might exist and that it might help to explain the origin of the code but so far, no evidence for that has been found.Jblais
July 8, 2022
July
07
Jul
8
08
2022
10:58 AM
10
10
58
AM
PST
jblais
there’s not even any physical contact between the anti-codon of the tRNA and the amino acid when they bind to the aaRS
That's one of the amazing facts about this process. There's no physical interface. This drives a steamroller through the idea of stereochemical matching.Silver Asiatic
July 8, 2022
July
07
Jul
8
08
2022
10:58 AM
10
10
58
AM
PST
Don't forget the hydrogen bond, Relatd. The serious point is that molecules in Brownian motion are associating and disassociating according to stereochemical structure and energy levels. They are not talking to each other.Fred Hickson
July 8, 2022
July
07
Jul
8
08
2022
10:54 AM
10
10
54
AM
PST
relatd
Your political ideology drives you.
Fred had this to say recently:
[I] became very involved in internet discussions beginning 2005, with the events around the Kitzmiller v. Dover School Board ...
A highly politicized event was the springboard for action.Silver Asiatic
July 8, 2022
July
07
Jul
8
08
2022
10:54 AM
10
10
54
AM
PST
FH at 878, I'm working on a play called Stereochemistry... :)relatd
July 8, 2022
July
07
Jul
8
08
2022
10:52 AM
10
10
52
AM
PST
The code is the matching between codons/anticodons and amino acids.
It is still stereochemistry. The interesting bit is the arbitrary connection between aminoacid docking and tRNA charging by the aaRSs. How could they have evolved? We seem to be away in the rough.Fred Hickson
July 8, 2022
July
07
Jul
8
08
2022
10:49 AM
10
10
49
AM
PST
FH
I sometimes use coded language with my wife. But they not the same thing
An analogy does not mean that the two things compared are "the same thing". You've said repeatedly that there is no analogy between genetic information and language. But I think what you meant is "DNA is not a human language". They're not the same thing. Good point. Yes, I don't recall seeing any humans speaking to each other in DNA code. So, it's good you pointed that out to everyone. But as for DNA not in any way (your quote) being analogous to human language? No. Again, "analogy" does not mean "exact equivalent". It means that there is a similarity between the two. The denial that there is a similarity between DNA and language is one of those things that help the argument that the origin of DNA was from a blind, mindless source - and can thereby develop easily from copy errors and natural selection.Silver Asiatic
July 8, 2022
July
07
Jul
8
08
2022
10:49 AM
10
10
49
AM
PST
FH at 875, Just say stereochemistry over and over. And over and :)relatd
July 8, 2022
July
07
Jul
8
08
2022
10:46 AM
10
10
46
AM
PST
The answer is the one I gave at the top, as stated in the literature.
Well, I'll agree for the sake of argument that languages use shared verbal symbols, referents etc. There is no useful analogy between that and what a codon is. Sure, modeling using letters of the alphabet is handy shorthand but the reality is stereochemistry all the way down.Fred Hickson
July 8, 2022
July
07
Jul
8
08
2022
10:44 AM
10
10
44
AM
PST
1 2 3 4 5 33

Leave a Reply