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At Evolution News: Günter Bechly repudiates “Professor Dave’s” attacks against ID

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Günter Bechly, Senior Fellow of the Center for Science and Culture, addresses the off-base accusations made against ID and the Discovery Institute.

Dave Farina is an atheist American YouTuber who runs a channel called Professor Dave Explains with almost two million subscribers.

The clichés and misrepresentations Farina recycles about intelligent design are beyond tired. Still, those new to the debate might find it helpful to see Farina’s false claims debunked.

Farina seems more interested in caricaturing those he disagrees with than understanding them.

Three Major Problems 

Farina also thinks that intelligent design theory “cannot be validated as real science because it does not explain or predict anything.” Here are three major problems with this statement:

Who defines what qualifies as “real science”? It is certainly not Dave Farina. It is not judges in court rooms. And it is not even the scientists themselves who define “science.” Reasonably, it is philosophers of science who address this question. But Farina seems to be totally ignorant of the fact that there is no consensus among philosophers of science about a demarcation criterion that could reliably distinguish science from non-science. Any criterion yet suggested, including Karl Popper’s criterion of falsifiability, either excludes too much (e.g., scientific fields like string theory or evolutionary biology) or includes too much (e.g., homeopathy or parapsychology).

Of course, intelligent design has explanatory power. Otherwise, we could not even explain the existence of Romeo and Juliet by the intelligent agency of William Shakespeare. There is no doubt that the designing activity of an intelligent agent is a perfectly valid explanation for complex specified patterns. The only question under debate is whether such patterns are confined to the realm of human cultural artifacts or if they are also found in nature. But this question should not be decided by dogmatic a priorirestrictions of certain worldviews that do not allow for design explanations whatever the evidence might be, but should rather follow the evidence wherever it leads. It is an empirical question to be decided by the data.

It is simply false that intelligent design does not predict anything. Indeed, this is yet another common stereotype that has been refuted so many times by ID proponents that any further use of this argument can be based only on a total ignorance of the facts (or perhaps deliberate lying, but I prefer not to apply that interpretation). Stephen Meyer (2009) included in his book Signature in the Cell a whole chapter with a dozen predictions inspired by intelligent design theory. These are often very precise and easily falsifiable, for example: “No undirected process will demonstrate the capacity to generate 500 bits of new [specified] information starting from a nonbiological source.” Just write a computer simulation that achieves this, without smuggling the information in through a backdoor, and you can claim victory over a core prediction of intelligent design.

Evolution News

Dr. Bechly addresses numerous additional misfires attempted by Professor Dave. With such a voluble spray of baseless accusations coming from someone like Professor Dave, it can be helpful to be reminded of the proverb, “Like a sparrow in its flitting, like a swallow in its flying, a curse that is causeless does not alight.” (Proverbs 26:2)

Comments
JVL, coin flipping trains give binary sequences, if you do a simple coin flip of 500 coins and it comes up ascii message in English for 71 characters, head to Vegas before the hot streak fades. And this is a valid use as well you know, red herrings, strawmen and confusing clouds notwithstanding. KF PS, if it looks like noise unless you have a decoding key, the safe bet made by the design inference filter as well you know is, it's noise. Earlier you gave a sequence you note I said looks like a population boom bust chain. It did and does.kairosfocus
June 7, 2022
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Kairosfocus: games with empty sequences do not tell us anything, whether fib’s numbers or succession of primes Why should that be? If you think the Fibonacci sequence or the primes are designed then should not Dr Dembski's test flag them up as so? (The question of the primes is a good one, almost philosophical. Where DO they come from? Not from our representation of them. Not from our culture(s).) If Dr Dembski, who used numerical sequences as examples, did not mean his test to be valid for testing such things then why did he use them as examples? Plus . . . since you brought it up . . . Let's say we did detect a signal from deep space, like in the movie Contact, but with no pattern we could discern. How would you attempt to decide if it was natural or random or designed?JVL
June 7, 2022
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ET: Again, the purpose of the design inference is to be able to determine when nature, operating freely, produced some effect or was an intelligent agency involved. Funny that Dr Dembski used coin flipping as an example then. And coded messages can appear to be random. Which is the point of Dr Dembski's test is it not? The bottom line is JVL’s “challenge” is that of a desperate child who doesn’t understand science and is clueless about detecting intelligent design. Look, Dr Dembski clearly designed his tool so it could be used against numerical sequences; he used numerical sequences as some of his examples. If you are unable to apply his rule to the sequences I gave you then why not just say so instead of calling names?JVL
June 7, 2022
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JVL, games with empty sequences do not tell us anything, whether fib's numbers or succession of primes. In Contact, the issue was a SIGNAL recognised as it is so implausible for the primes to be produced by noise. Where, signal vs noise shows how deeply embedded the design inference is in a central field of science and technology, information and communication. Well do I remember my awe at looking at grass on a D52 scope screen. Then, looking at signal. I remember being told I danced a jig when my first, phase shift oscillator circuit as a de novo design, duly popped up with a clean sinusoid. Which of course would be something else pointing to design as a clean carrier is hard to do. KF Scope grass https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Znwp0pK8Tzkkairosfocus
June 7, 2022
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JVL:
Too bad you can’t use Dr Dembski’s mathematical tool yourself.
Too bad you are a willfully ignorant tool. Dembski's mathematical tool doesn't have anything to do with your idiotic challenge. Again, the purpose of the design inference is to be able to determine when nature, operating freely, produced some effect or was an intelligent agency involved. That said, if we saw any of JVL's numeric sequences etched into a wall of a cave, we would infer an intelligent agency was involved. The question of randomness or a distinct pattern is secondary. And coded messages can appear to be random. The bottom line is JVL's "challenge" is that of a desperate child who doesn't understand science and is clueless about detecting intelligent design.ET
June 7, 2022
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Asauber: Why don’t you, as an open-minded explorer, show us how Dembski’s tool does in the case of your mystery sequences? a) I don't have to 'cause I know where the sequences came from and b) I don't believe his tool is a valid or useable way to detect design. I do understand what he was trying to accomplish however. I think some of his comments in the monograph are quite good and pertinent in fact. I just don't find his final formulation valid or even useable in some situations. Considering how often it ever got used I think my views on it are correct. One of the sequences you should recognise.JVL
June 7, 2022
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JVL, Why don't you, as an open-minded explorer, show us how Dembski's tool does in the case of your mystery sequences? Andrewasauber
June 7, 2022
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ET: Right. We don’t know the source of living organisms. And yet we are able to discern intelligent design given our KNOWLEDGE of cause-and-effect relationships. And Dembski’s math helps us to do so. Too bad you can't use Dr Dembski's mathematical tool yourself. Ah well, maybe someone else can.JVL
June 7, 2022
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JVL:
Clearly Dr Dembski indicated that it should be possible to discern design or specified information knowing nothing at all about the source of the potential design.
Right. We don't know the source of living organisms. And yet we are able to discern intelligent design given our KNOWLEDGE of cause-and-effect relationships. And Dembski's math helps us to do so. Archaeologists didn't know the source of Stonehenge until they started to study it and all relevant evidence.ET
June 7, 2022
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Yes, JVL, your ignorance of science and ID are hilarious.
That’s what I’m asking you folks: can you examine the sequences I gave you and see if they were randomly generated or came about via some kind of specification or scheme or design or plan.
Your "challenge" doesn't have anything to do with ID nor what Dembski has said. Clearly you are just an ignorant infant and apparently proud of it.
Additionally, I find it incredibly amusing that not one of you recognised one of the sequences...
That doesn't follow at all. Clearly you are just a clueless child.ET
June 7, 2022
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JVL
I find it incredibly amusing that not one of you recognised one of the sequences which I would expect a primary school child to know.
Hmm. I didn't learn about that sequence till secondary*. Maybe because the primary number was excluded and it starts now with the secondary one. ;) *Or I did and forgot. I am very old.Fred Hickson
June 7, 2022
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This is all pretty funny I think. In 2005 Dr Dembski published a monograph, Specification: the pattern that signifies intelligence, where he clearly lays out a mathematical tool that could be used to detect design in objects and mathematical sequences. He uses mathematical sequences as some of his examples. He uses those sequences and asks how it could be determined if those sequences were randomly generated or came about via some scheme or design. He also, specifically, develops his tool so that foreknowledge of how they were generated is not necessary. That's what I'm asking you folks: can you examine the sequences I gave you and see if they were randomly generated or came about via some kind of specification or scheme or design or plan. I didn't say they came about by measuring some natural cause although I didn't rule it out either. That shouldn't matter according to Dr Dembski. In fact, when trying to determine if some mysterious object or thing was designed there would be no need for such a test if the source of the object was known!! It's only use is when the source is NOT known. Again, the question is: were the sequences I gave you randomly generated or did they come about via some design or scheme, do they contain complex, specified information because of how they were generated? I've been told over and over and over again that there are design detection methods; I'd like to see you use those methods on the above sequences. Additionally, I find it incredibly amusing that not one of you recognised one of the sequences which I would expect a primary school child to know. That is just priceless!JVL
June 7, 2022
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JVL
So you think then that Dr Dembski was wrong to propose that it was possible to detect design or specified information knowing nothing at all except the design itself?
No I don't disagree with that. I can detect that your sentences are designed with specified information. I know also that the numbers you provided are the product of human intelligence, since nature does not produce numbers.
You don’t know where those numbers came from by the way.
They came to me via a laptop screen and a blog post. So, I know they were intelligently designed.Silver Asiatic
June 6, 2022
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JVL, of course function is observed in a real contest, as you full well know. That function is like text in this thread in English, or the coded algorithms of DNA you and so many others are running away from, or the arrangement of parts in a 6500CT reel, or the interconnections of process flow networks whether a petroleum refinery or the metabolic network of the cell. We do not need to get into red herring guessing games as to mystery collections of digits. The designs Dembski had in mind were cells, body plans and the like. As to math, I long since published a paper on how logic of structure and quantity is embedded in possible worlds. As for oh Fibonacci sequences are common, yes they are and there are related proportions in our body shape, faces etc. There is a debate about why. We need not try to answer to every case or suggestion in order to deal with key ones sufficient to make the point, a part of the paradigms concept. Newton started with a falling apple and an orbiting moon, Galileo with a pendulum. KFkairosfocus
June 6, 2022
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JVL:
Clearly Dr Dembski indicated that it should be possible to discern design or specified information knowing nothing at all about the source of the potential design.
Yes, that is true. However, it is clear that nature did NOT write down those numeric sequences. So, the context is all messed up. As I said, you are obviously a scientifically illiterate infant.ET
June 6, 2022
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JVL:
Could nature have generated the sequences I gave you?
Nature is incapable of producing numeric sequences.
Sometimes you have to work with what you’ve got.
Not really. No one cares about your out-of-context numeric sequences. There needs to be a reason to investigate. And trying to placate an infantile troll is not such a reason.ET
June 6, 2022
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JVL Clearly Dr Dembski indicated that it should be possible to discern design or specified information knowing nothing at all about the source of the potential design. He thought it was not impossible to know the difference, just study the design itself as ET always says. So, study the potential design and make a call.
Your trick failed miserably . Life have (1)code, (2)function and (3)system(context) you provided only a possible (1)code without function and context . It's obviously why: because you are a moral and objective person and you try to find the truth . :) I could provide you a bunch of numbers that could be codes from bought applications, product keys from Operating Systems, passwords of accounts, codes for top-up credit for phones,etc.,etc.but without providing you context it's impossible to know if are random or designed. For some tribe from Amazon Jungle are gibberish but for some hackers are "pretty" designed.Lieutenant Commander Data
June 6, 2022
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LCD: The funny thing is he shot himself in the foot because he knows what is the source of his numbers but in the same time he try to make the case that is impossible to know the difference. You can’t make this thing up! Clearly Dr Dembski indicated that it should be possible to discern design or specified information knowing nothing at all about the source of the potential design. He thought it was not impossible to know the difference, just study the design itself as ET always says. So, study the potential design and make a call.JVL
June 6, 2022
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Silver Asiatic: There’s nowhere in nature that shows those numbers you produced. So, you extracted them from a source. Hiding the source and quizzing people on “design or not” is not how science works. We look at everything we know and not just on what a human being feels like revealing. So you think then that Dr Dembski was wrong to propose that it was possible to detect design or specified information knowing nothing at all except the design itself? You don't know where those numbers came from by the way. They could be natural. I didn't make them up myself. AND one of the sequences is very famous and clearly not made up by humans.JVL
June 6, 2022
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Asauber: Sure, but it would depend on further information. Context. And if you had none?JVL
June 6, 2022
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Silver Asiatic So, you extracted them from a source. Hiding the source and quizzing people on “design or not” is not how science works. We look at everything we know and not just on what a human being feels like revealing.
The funny thing is he shot himself in the foot because he knows what is the source of his numbers but in the same time he try to make the case that is impossible to know the difference. You can't make this thing up!Lieutenant Commander Data
June 6, 2022
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"You’re looking for some kind of refutation of ID here" Desperately, I reckon. Andrewasauber
June 6, 2022
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JVL
Could nature have generated the sequences I gave you? Yes or no?
You're looking for some kind of refutation of ID here, but as Dawkins says, there are aspects of nature that give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose. The strings of text you provided do not show any functional purpose. Unlike DNA they do not direct functions or logic-based responses. They're just patterns. ID does not claim to be able to analyze every artifact on earth and determine "designed or not". It only takes what is obviously designed, since it will be a functioning system or irreducible complexity. Asking if the pattern of raindrops on the ground show evidence of design is to misunderstand what ID is. There's nowhere in nature that shows those numbers you produced. So, you extracted them from a source. Hiding the source and quizzing people on "design or not" is not how science works. We look at everything we know and not just on what a human being feels like revealing.Silver Asiatic
June 6, 2022
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"Let’s say we detect a signal originating from a point in outer space. It’s a series of pulses, dots and dashes, something like that. In order to decide if that signal is designed is it not essential to represent that signal in some kind of abstract form?" JVL, Sure, but it would depend on further information. Context. Andrewasauber
June 6, 2022
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ET: o, science is a parlor game to you? What you are asking has absolutely NOTHING to do with ID and how we detect design. Letters on a page in a book would appear random to anyone who doesn’t know the language or something about what humans do. But the investigator would understand that nature didn’t do it and it took an intelligent agency to produce. You guys are the ones who claim to be able to detect design. I gave you some simple, clear mathematical sequences and asked if you could discern if they were designed or random. I gave you quotes from a monograph by Dr Dembski where he gives a method for determining specified information in possibly random sequences. And you still can't admit that you cannot make the determination. The design inference pertains to what nature can do vs what intelligent agencies can. Intelligent agencies can carve random doodles in a cave wall. It is still an artifact. Could nature have generated the sequences I gave you? Yes or no? Obviously, CONTEXT matters with respect to scientific investigations. But you are just desperate and want to try to turn science into so cheap parlor game. Sometimes you have to work with what you've got. Can you determine if the sequences I gave you are designed or not? Yes or no? And you keep being told that is because it was intelligently designed using mathematics. That should make it even easier to decide if the mathematical sequences I gave you are designed or not. And, clearly, you have bailed on the sequence questions. I'll take that as a: no, I cannot figure out if those sequences are random or designed from you then. Weird since one of them is really famous.JVL
June 6, 2022
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LCD: We talk about coding systems with functions(cell’s code). Real functions that have the code as source for function . Your argumentation is void. That has nothing to do with actually trying to determine if the sequences I posted, which are not a code or a representation of something else, are designed or random values. Since you clearly cannot make that determination then why don't you just admit it.JVL
June 6, 2022
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JVL:
I know you can’t actually answer the obvious question but I’ll ask it anyway: what kind of evidence would you accept?
Here it is, AGAIN: Start by demonstrating that living organisms are reducible to physics and chemistry. To do that all scientists would need to do is synthesize a population of prokaryotes. They know all of the chemicals and reactions involved. They understand the biophysics. Yet, they can't even solve that problem. But yours is the most difficult position to demonstrate. How can anyone test the claim that the Earth/ Moon system and solar system is the result of innumerable atomic accidents and cosmic collisions? It has nothing to do with what anyone would accept. It has everything to do with your inability to demonstrate anything beyond your ignorance of science.ET
June 6, 2022
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JVL:
So, you cannot analyse or study the sequences I gave you not knowing anything else and determine if they are random or designed. Is that correct?
So, science is a parlor game to you? What you are asking has absolutely NOTHING to do with ID and how we detect design. Letters on a page in a book would appear random to anyone who doesn't know the language or something about what humans do. But the investigator would understand that nature didn't do it and it took an intelligent agency to produce. The design inference pertains to what nature can do vs what intelligent agencies can. Intelligent agencies can carve random doodles in a cave wall. It is still an artifact. Unfortunately, people like JVL don't understand science, investigating or what the design inference pertains to.
They were reproduced on a computer but they were not generated by a computer. Anyway, what difference does it make where they are recorded? The question is: was the sequence designed or not? I didn’t create them. Especially the very famous one.
Obviously, CONTEXT matters with respect to scientific investigations. But you are just desperate and want to try to turn science into so cheap parlor game.
I keep being told how uncanny it is that nature can be modelled by mathematics.
And you keep being told that is because it was intelligently designed using mathematics.ET
June 6, 2022
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2, 3, 5, 7, 11, 13, 17, 19, 23, 29, 31, 37, 41, 43, 47, 53, 59, 61, 67, 71, 73, 79, 83, 89, 97, etc. Not encoded at all.
OK. I quote from a site for kids if you still don't understand I can't help you: "A number is a basic unit of mathematics. Numbers are used for counting, measuring, and comparing amounts. A number system is a set of symbols, or numerals, that are used to represent numbers. The most common number system uses 10 symbols called digits—0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, and 9—and combinations of these digits. (https://kids.britannica.com)
No function. It’s just a sequence of numbers that either are related by some pattern or not. Can you tell the difference?
We talk about coding systems with functions(cell's code). Real functions that have the code as source for function . Your argumentation is void.Lieutenant Commander Data
June 6, 2022
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LCD: You have no clue. The sequences are encoded. Whether or not they are designed or random requires no interpretation other than considering the values alone. Your need to consider the relationship between the values NOT what they might represent or mean. IF you cannot determine if they are designed or random then just say so. It seems that you can't but an honest and honourable person would say so. By the way, this sequence: 2, 3, 5, 7, 11, 13, 17, 19, 23, 29, 31, 37, 41, 43, 47, 53, 59, 61, 67, 71, 73, 79, 83, 89, 97 Is extremely famous. One you should recognise. One not encoded or encrypted. We see the function of a signal in the cell what is the function of your signal ? No function. It's just a sequence of numbers that either are related by some pattern or not. Can you tell the difference?JVL
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