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At Evolution News: Mammoth Support for Devolution

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Michael Behe writes:

The more science progresses, the more hapless Darwin seems.

In my 2019 book Darwin Devolves I showed that random mutation and natural selection are powerful de-volutionary forces. That is, they quickly lead to the loss of genetic information. The reason is that, in many environmental circumstances, a species’ lot can be improved most quickly by breaking or blunting pre-existing genes. To get the point across, I used an analogy to a quick way to improve a car’s gas mileage — remove the hood, throw out the doors, get rid of any excess weight. That will help the car go further, but it also reduces the number of features of the car. And it sure doesn’t explain how any of those now-jettisoned parts got there in the first place.

Image credit: Thomas Quine, CC BY 2.0 , via Wikimedia Commons.

The Bottom Line

The same goes for biology. Helpful mutations that arrive most quickly are very much more likely to degrade genetic features than to construct new ones. The featured illustration in Darwin Devolves was the polar bear, which has accumulated a number of beneficial mutations since it branched off from the brown bear a few hundred thousand years ago. Yet the large majority of those beneficial mutations were degradative — they broke or damaged pre-existing genes. For example, a gene involved in fur pigmentation was damaged, rendering the beast white — that helped; another gene involved in fat metabolism was degraded, allowing the animal to consume lots of seal blubber, its main food in the Arctic — that helped, too. Those mutations were good for the species in the moment — they did improve its chances of survival. But degradative mutations don’t explain how the functioning genes got there in the first place. Even worse, the relentless burning of genetic information to adapt to a changing environment will make a species evolutionarily brittle and more prone to extinction. The bottom line: Although random mutation and natural selection help a species adapt, Darwinian processes can’t account for the origins of sophisticated biological systems.

In Darwin Devolves, I also mentioned work on DNA extracted from frozen woolly mammoth carcasses that showcased devolution: “26 genes were shown to be seriously degraded, many of which (as with polar bear) were involved in fat metabolism, critical in the extremely cold environments that the mammoth roamed.” It turns out that was an underestimate. A new paper1 that has sequenced DNA from several more woolly mammoth remains says the true number is more than triple that — 87 genes broken compared to their elephant relatives. 

There’s Lots More

The point is that these gene losses aren’t side shows — they are the events that transformed an elephant into a mammoth, that adapted the animal to its changing environment. A job well done, yes, but now those genes are gone forever, unavailable to help with the next change of environment. Perhaps that contributed to eventual mammoth extinction.

As quoted above, the mammoth authors note that gene losses can be adaptive, and they cited a paper that I hadn’t seen before. I checked it out and it’s a wonderful laboratory evolution study of yeast.2 Helsen et al. (2020) used a collection of yeast strains in which one of each different gene in the genome had been knocked out. They grew the knockout yeast in a stressful environment and watched to see how the microbes evolved to handle it. Many of the yeast strains, with different genes initially knocked out, recovered, and some even surpassed the fitness of wild-type yeast under the circumstances. The authors emphasized the fact of the evolutionary recovery. However, they also clearly stated (but don’t seem to have noticed the importance of the fact) that all of the strains rebounded by breaking other genes, ones that had been intact at the beginning of the experiment. None built anything new, all of them devolved.

Well, Duh

That’s hardly a surprise. At least in retrospect, it’s easy to see that devolution must happen — for the simple reason that helpful degradative mutations are more plentiful than helpful constructive ones and thus arrive more quickly for natural selection to multiply. The more recent results recounted here just pile more evidence onto that gathered in Darwin Devolves showing Darwin’s mechanism is powerfully devolutionary. That simple realization neatly explains results ranging from the evolutionary behavior of yeast in a comfy modern laboratory, to the speciation of megafauna in raw nature millions of years ago, and almost certainly to everything in between.

References

  1. Van der Valk, Tom, et al. 2022. Evolutionary consequences of genomic deletions and insertions in the woolly mammoth genome. iScience 25, 104826.
  2. Helsen, J. et al. 2020. Gene loss predictably drives evolutionary adaptation. Molecular Biology and Evolution 37, 2989–3002.

Behe’s conclusions have significant implications: evolutionary adaptation seems to progress by breaking existing genes in such a way as to confer a survival advantage in a niche environment; the result is a more “brittle” species with fewer options for surviving further environmental stresses; the mystery of the origin of the original genes is in no way explained by natural means at any step in the process. Rather than Darwinian evolution providing a mechanism for the “origin of the species,” it more adequately explains the demise of species.

Comments
Ba77 at 430, Note the words "not responsible" in your assessment of JVL. He is not responsible for anything or to anyone, meaning God. Radical individualism is a threat. By closing in on himself, man prefers only his own thoughts, his own opinions and his own interpretation of reality. While he can find others of like mind, he promotes this poisonous form of thinking to others not like him. It is a poison since, as you demonstrated, it tells people to ignore reality as it is. To ignore right reason. Jesus said: Matthew 20:28 'even as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”relatd
August 27, 2022
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WJM at 427, With all due respect, do you really believe that? Both sides have presented their case. Both sides can't be right. There is no evidence that anyone forgot how to read or think. Any momentary confusion can be solved quite easily: do the research.relatd
August 27, 2022
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Chuckdarwin/433
Paxx/418 Jesus would never call someone a “dumb sh*t,” even if they were……
Although I suppose you couldn't blame Him if He did after His Dad was called
… arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; … etc, etc,
But then you could say it was His Dad's fault for behaving like that, at least, according to the Bible. Maybe Christians need the equivalent of another Council of Rome or Hippo to clean it up.
Seversky
August 27, 2022
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Chuckdarwin @433,
Jesus would never call someone a “dumb sh*t,” even if they were……
How would you know? Jesus (aka the Word of God) quoted extensively from the Tanakh, famously including Psalm 22. Psalm 14:1 (NASB) reads,
The fool has said in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, they have committed abominable deeds. There is no one who does good.
Jesus also called the religious leaders of his time, serpents, a brood of vipers, fools, blind guides, hypocrites, children of hell, full of greed and self indulgence. Read his denunciations for yourself in Matthew, chapter 23. Frankly, I'm completely convinced that the same denunciations richly apply to many religious leaders of today as well! -QQuerius
August 27, 2022
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Kairosfocus/430
BA55, without rational, responsible freedom, there is no good reason, no warrant, no knowledge, no capacity to evaluate on merits. Which of course promotes empty rhetorical manipulation even as it undermines the possibility of Science, Mathematics etc as actual domains of knowledge. Evolutionary materialistic scientism and fellow travellers are in the end self referentially absurd, anti-reason, anti-knowledge, anti-science. That, frankly, sadly, goes a long way to explaining the present intellectual climate. KF
No, it doesn't. It's a form of conspiracy theory. It simply dumps all the blame for what are perceived as the world's ill on some "other" - a scapegoat group or population. "They" are to blame, not "us". Unless and until we get past that kind of thinking, we are in big trouble going forward. I have asked before what you and BA77 actually mean by "free will". Are you able to change from straight to gay and back again just by an effort of will? Can you lift a car with one hand or leap over a tall building in a single bound just by an exertion of "free will". Those are absurd examples but the cases of drug addicts aren't. They are driven by an overwhelming compulsion arising from their unconscious to feed their addiction. Some are able to overcome that compulsion to some extent by an effort of will but many can't. Even if they become "clean" that addiction will always be there lurking in their unconscious. "Free will" cannot erase it. The point is that, like it or not, we are of this Universe not apart from it. We are as much bound by the forces which drive it and the laws which regulate it as anything else. We still don't know where those forces and laws come from both on the largest and the smallest scales but we can't escape them. So where is free will in all of this? I have the same experience of free will as everyone else but doesn't it make more sense to ask to what extent we have free will?Seversky
August 27, 2022
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Paxx/418 Jesus would never call someone a "dumb sh*t," even if they were......chuckdarwin
August 27, 2022
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Paxx Who else here thinks JVL is kind of a dumb sh*t?
Your anger it's justified but your focus is on the wrong person.Lieutenant Commander Data
August 27, 2022
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BA55, without rational, responsible freedom, there is no good reason, no warrant, no knowledge, no capacity to evaluate on merits. Which of course promotes empty rhetorical manipulation even as it undermines the possibility of Science, Mathematics etc as actual domains of knowledge. Evolutionary materialistic scientism and fellow travellers are in the end self referentially absurd, anti-reason, anti-knowledge, anti-science. That, frankly, sadly, goes a long way to explaining the present intellectual climate. KFkairosfocus
August 27, 2022
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JVL at 402:
Q: "so you’re claiming that after millions and millions of years, computers, jet aircraft, and cities that are far less complex than a living cell will spontaneously evolve without intelligent design. If we found these on Mars, would you say they evolved from natural causes or would you say they were intelligently designed?" JVL: "Clearly non-living, non-natural structures are created by intelligent beings. Again, you’re not actually addressing the real unguided evolutionary argument. But that’s not very surprising."
Well actually it is JVL himself who is not "addressing the real unguided evolutionary argument". (which is not surprising). In the "real unguided evolutionary argument", Darwinists simply deny the existence of free will.
The Illusion of Free Will - Sam Harris - 2012 Excerpt: "Free will is an illusion so convincing that people simply refuse to believe that we don’t have it.,,," - Jerry Coyne https://samharris.org/the-illusion-of-free-will/
And with their denial of free will, intelligent agents simply do not exist in the "real unguided evolutionary argument" of Darwinists. As Coyne further explains, you don't actually make any decisions for yourself but “Your decisions result from molecular-based electrical impulses and chemical substances transmitted from one brain cell to another. These molecules must obey the laws of physics, so the outputs of our brain—our “choices”—are dictated by those laws.”
You Don’t Have Free Will By Jerry A. Coyne - March 18, 2012 Excerpt: “Your decisions result from molecular-based electrical impulses and chemical substances transmitted from one brain cell to another. These molecules must obey the laws of physics, so the outputs of our brain—our “choices”—are dictated by those laws.” Jerry Coyne https://www.chronicle.com/article/Jerry-A-Coyne-You-Dont-Have/131165
Thus directly contrary to what JVL is claiming, i.e. "Clearly non-living, non-natural structures are created by intelligent beings", in the "real unguided evolutionary argument", and with its explicit denial of free will, intelligent beings create nothing but everything is ultimately created by the 'laws of physics'. As Granville Sewell noted, "I make the simple point that to not believe in intelligent design, you have to believe that the four fundamental, unintelligent forces of physics alone (the gravitational, electromagnetic, and strong and weak nuclear forces) could have rearranged the fundamental particles of physics into encyclopedias and science texts and computers and airplanes and Apple iPhones.,,,"
From Barren Planet to Civilization — Four Simple Steps Granville Sewell - July 27, 2017 In the video “Why Evolution is Different,” above, I make the simple point that to not believe in intelligent design, you have to believe that the four fundamental, unintelligent forces of physics alone (the gravitational, electromagnetic, and strong and weak nuclear forces) could have rearranged the fundamental particles of physics into encyclopedias and science texts and computers and airplanes and Apple iPhones.,,, The argument here for intelligent design could not be simpler or clearer: unintelligent forces of physics alone cannot rearrange atoms into computers and airplanes and Apple iPhones. And the counterargument consists of four steps, each of which — to put it very generously — is full of dubious and unproven assertions. Q.E.D. https://evolutionnews.org/2017/07/from-barren-planet-to-civilization-four-simple-steps/ Granville Sewell is professor of mathematics at the University of Texas El Paso.
And as George Ellis noted, "if Einstein did not have free will in some meaningful sense, then he could not have been responsible for the theory of relativity – it would have been a product of lower level processes but not of an intelligent mind choosing between possible options."
Physicist George Ellis on the importance of philosophy and free will - July 27, 2014 Excerpt: And free will?: Horgan: Einstein, in the following quote, seemed to doubt free will: “If the moon, in the act of completing its eternal way around the Earth, were gifted with self-consciousness, it would feel thoroughly convinced that it was traveling its way of its own accord…. So would a Being, endowed with higher insight and more perfect intelligence, watching man and his doings, smile about man’s illusion that he was acting according to his own free will.” Do you believe in free will? Ellis: Yes. Einstein is perpetuating the belief that all causation is bottom up. This simply is not the case, as I can demonstrate with many examples from sociology, neuroscience, physiology, epigenetics, engineering, and physics. Furthermore if Einstein did not have free will in some meaningful sense, then he could not have been responsible for the theory of relativity – it would have been a product of lower level processes but not of an intelligent mind choosing between possible options. I find it very hard to believe this to be the case – indeed it does not seem to make any sense. Physicists should pay attention to Aristotle’s four forms of causation – if they have the free will to decide what they are doing. If they don’t, then why waste time talking to them? They are then not responsible for what they say. https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/physicist-george-ellis-on-the-importance-of-philosophy-and-free-will/
Shoot, in the "real unguided evolutionary argument", JVL is not even responsible for any sentence that he writes on this blog. As Paul Nelson explains, "MN (methodological naturalism) entails an ontology in which minds are the consequence of physics, and thus, can only be placeholders for a more detailed causal account in which physics is the only (ultimate) actor. You didn’t write your email to me. Physics did, and informed you of that event after the fact."
Assessing the Damage MN Does to Freedom of Inquiry Epistemology — how we know — and ontology — what exists — are both affected by methodological naturalism. If we say, "We cannot know that a mind caused x," laying down an epistemological boundary defined by MN, then our ontology comprising real causes for x won’t include minds. MN entails an ontology in which minds are the consequence of physics, and thus, can only be placeholders for a more detailed causal account in which physics is the only (ultimate) actor. You didn’t write your email to me. Physics did, and informed you of that event after the fact. "That’s crazy," you reply, "I certainly did write my email." Okay, then — to what does the pronoun "I" in that sentence refer? Your personal agency; your mind. Are you supernatural? Who knows?,,, You are certainly an intelligent cause, however, and your intelligence does not collapse into physics. (If it does collapse — i.e., can be reduced without explanatory loss — we haven’t the faintest idea how, which amounts to the same thing.) To explain the effects you bring about in the world — such as your email, a real pattern — we must refer to you as a unique agent.,, - per evolution news
Thus JVL may honestly admit to the blatantly obvious fact that, "Clearly non-living, non-natural structures are created by intelligent beings", but for him to do so is for him to not address "the real unguided evolutionary argument", and is for his to, in actuality, assume that Intelligent Design is true. Of further note: In the following article the late Steven Weinberg stated “In the instrumentalist approach (in quantum mechanics) humans are brought into the laws of nature at the most fundamental level.,,, the instrumentalist approach turns its back on a vision that became possible after Darwin, of a world governed by impersonal physical laws that control human behavior along with everything else.,,, In quantum mechanics these probabilities do not exist until people choose what to measure,,, Unlike the case of classical physics, a choice must be made,,,”
The Trouble with Quantum Mechanics – Steven Weinberg – January 19, 2017 Excerpt: The instrumentalist approach,, (the) wave function,, is merely an instrument that provides predictions of the probabilities of various outcomes when measurements are made.,, In the instrumentalist approach,,, humans are brought into the laws of nature at the most fundamental level. According to Eugene Wigner, a pioneer of quantum mechanics, “it was not possible to formulate the laws of quantum mechanics in a fully consistent way without reference to the consciousness.”11 Thus the instrumentalist approach turns its back on a vision that became possible after Darwin, of a world governed by impersonal physical laws that control human behavior along with everything else. It is not that we object to thinking about humans. Rather, we want to understand the relation of humans to nature, not just assuming the character of this relation by incorporating it in what we suppose are nature’s fundamental laws, but rather by deduction from laws that make no explicit reference to humans. We may in the end have to give up this goal,,, Some physicists who adopt an instrumentalist approach argue that the probabilities we infer from the wave function are objective probabilities, independent of whether humans are making a measurement. I don’t find this tenable. In quantum mechanics these probabilities do not exist until people choose what to measure, such as the spin in one or another direction. Unlike the case of classical physics, a choice must be made,,, http://quantum.phys.unm.edu/466-17/QuantumMechanicsWeinberg.pdf
In fact Weinberg, an atheist, rejected the instrumentalist approach precisely because, via their free will choices, “humans are brought into the laws of nature at the most fundamental level” and because it undermined the Darwinian worldview from within. Yet, regardless of how he and other atheists may prefer the world to behave, quantum mechanics itself could care less how atheists would prefer the world to behave. For instance, Anton Zeilinger and company have now, as of 2018, pushed the ‘freedom of choice’ loophole back to 7.8 billion years ago, thereby firmly establishing the ‘common sense’ fact that the free will choices of the experimenter in the quantum experiments are truly free and are not determined by any possible causal influences from the past for at least the last 7.8 billion years, and that the experimenters themselves are therefore shown to be truly free to choose whatever measurement settings in the experiments that he or she may so desire to choose so as to ‘logically’ probe whatever aspect of reality that he or she may be interested in probing.
Cosmic Bell Test Using Random Measurement Settings from High-Redshift Quasars – Anton Zeilinger – 14 June 2018 Abstract: This experiment pushes back to at least approx. 7.8 Gyr ago the most recent time by which any local-realist influences could have exploited the “freedom-of-choice” loophole to engineer the observed Bell violation, excluding any such mechanism from 96% of the space-time volume of the past light cone of our experiment, extending from the big bang to today. https://journals.aps.org/prl/abstract/10.1103/PhysRevLett.121.080403
Thus regardless of how Steven Weinberg and other atheists may prefer the universe to behave, with the closing of the last remaining ‘freedom of choice’ loophole in quantum mechanics, “humans are indeed brought into the laws of nature at the most fundamental level”, and thus these recent findings from quantum mechanics directly undermine, as Weinberg himself admitted, the “vision that became possible after Darwin, of a world governed by impersonal physical laws that control human behavior along with everything else.” Moreover, when we rightly allow the Agent causality of God ‘back’ into physics, (as the Christian founders of modern science originally held with their necessary presupposition of 'contingency'), and as quantum mechanics itself now empirically demands with the closing of the “freedom-of-choice” loophole by Anton Zeilinger and company), then rightly allowing the Agent causality of God ‘back’ into physics provides us with a very plausible resolution for the much sought after ‘theory of everything’ in that Christ’s resurrection from the dead bridges the infinite mathematical divide that exists between General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics and provides us with an empirically backed reconciliation, via the Shroud of Turin, between Quantum Mechanics and General Relativity into the much sought after ‘Theory of Everything”
February 2022 - Free will of God and the founding of modern science, (i.e. the necessary presupposition of 'contingency' for the founding of modern science) https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/at-mind-matters-news-why-would-a-purely-physical-universe-need-imaginary-numbers/#comment-747234 December 2021 - When scrutinizing some of the many fascinating details of the Shroud of Turin, we find that both General Relativity, i.e. gravity, and Quantum Mechanics were both dealt with in Christ’s resurrection from the dead. https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/in-time-for-american-thanksgiving-stephen-meyer-on-the-frailty-of-scientific-atheism/#comment-741600
Verses:
Matthew 28:18 Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me," Colossians 1:15-20 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
bornagain77
August 27, 2022
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@ William Refreshing to read 427.Alan Fox
August 27, 2022
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Chemicals do not and cannot spring to life.
Indeed, that is absurd.
But the contention is that they did.
Who do you mean by "they"? I've never heard any such claim from anyone in the scientific community. I think you made that up.Alan Fox
August 27, 2022
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Paxx said:
Who else here thinks JVL is kind of a dumb sh*t?
I think that's unfair. Everyone suffers from cognitive dissonance and cognitive biases. I've seen it in operation on both sides of these debates. I have suffered from those things myself on a couple of occasions here, and have admitted those errors when I discovered them. I'm certainly still operating under them, but they're not easy to spot or to figure out whom it is that is suffering from them in any particular debate.William J Murray
August 27, 2022
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Relatd @425, But you don't understand. A Kosmic Karma (tm) force musta existed to push forward complexity. However, this Kosmic Karma (tm), having done its job is no longer around. For example, when cells first appeared, they were very, very simple. They didn't even know how move, divide, or even solve simple linear equations. But Kosmic Karma (tm) saved the day! Little-by-little, Kosmic Karma (tm) fought against the evil demiurge, Entropy to nudge the dumb little cells forward into complexity out of chaos. For example, the fat little cells just sat there at first so, Kosmic Karma (tm) nudged it into having a bump on its cell wall that developed into a structure that simply made rude noises. When that got boring Kosmic Karma (tm) nudged it a little further so that the noisemaker bump evolved into a type 2 secretory structure, which gave it a selective advantage over all the others that could only make rude noises. From there, it was a piece of cake to turn it into a flagellum. And we know this is true because in another billion years, the flagellum will turn into a pair of teensy-weensy jet engines, giving it a far greater selection advantage. See, this is "following the science." -Q It pressured the simpleQuerius
August 26, 2022
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Chemicals do not and cannot spring to life. But the contention is that they did. Once alive, what did early cells do to get energy/food? How could they digest or turn it into a life-sustaining process? What internal machinery converted the energy/food into something useful? The early cell is sometimes described as a (lipid) bag with unknown contents. The contention is that this simple cell could exist with very minimal machinery. The next problem is reproduction. Where did the machinery come from to initiate, sustain and complete cell division? And to do it accurately? The simple cell would need to store a certain amount of energy to reproduce. It appears that a magic bag, or simple cell containing magic ingredients, is required. Of course, it is assumed that simple cells became more complex for no particular reason and that the internal cellular machinery did the same. Conclusion: An increase in complexity involves not just the right parts, but parts working together in very specific ways, and instructions to guide and make those processes happen. There is no evidence that an unguided process that has no goals can do this.relatd
August 26, 2022
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JVL @402,
As well you know we don’t know what that basic replicator was . . . yet.
What a lovely statement of pure, childlike faith! Wow. I'm also imagining a medieval alchemist asserting that “we don’t have the exact formula . . . yet.”
RNA world seems to be gaining some ground. I figure it might have been some really spare like a minimalist virus but one that could reproduce just given naturally available resources. But it would have had to be very simple.
And just like all the promising designs of perpetual motion, all this very simple virus needed was a little push to get started, and voila, free energy! Since the virus is so simple, then it must be simple to make one and demonstrate it. Even a child could do it! Right?
I’m just asking you to fill-out the ID paradigm a bit. Like saying something about when design was implemented at least.
As you might hopefully know by now, ID takes no position on the source of the intelligent design or how long it took. Note that uniformitarianism fails on both linear retrospective extrapolation and in scale (in other words, catastrophism is a matter of whether your house is sitting on a volcano). Maybe we’re in a simulation of some kind (as some physicists now believe), or maybe it was a class assignment for an alien university.
Querius: Yes, they are. Look up “Cambrian explosion.” JVL: How long was the Cambrian explosion?
Look it up yourself. I’m not your Siri.
Well, there is still the possibility that some bit of biological substance got placed on Earth somehow. I can’t rule that out but it does just put the real beginning of life back to some other place at some other time.
Really? A possibility? Oh, but you must mean like Francis Crick’s conclusion of “directed panspermia,” right?
Querius: Oh, so you’re claiming that after millions and millions of years, computers, jet aircraft, and cities that are far less complex than a living cell will spontaneously evolve without intelligent design. If we found these on Mars, would you say they evolved from natural causes or would you say they were intelligently designed? JVL: Clearly non-living, non-natural structures are created by intelligent beings. Again, you’re not actually addressing the real unguided evolutionary argument. But that’s not very surprising.
So, do you think an iron atom in a living organism is fundamentally different than an iron atom in a jet aircraft? What about a heme molecule? Could you tell if a heme molecule came from a living organism or was possibly synthesized? Do you think it’s impossible, then, for a living organism to have been created by a clearly super intelligent being? The “yet” that you’re missing is the whole ball of wax, namely a natural, self-organizing force that would take a bacterial smoothie, subject it to a series of physical and chemical processes that would reassemble it (or even a SUPER SIMPLE version) into “living” organism. After all, differential erosion and other known physical processes could certainly result in something that looks like a city. You might argue that LIVING organisms have a selection mechanism, but that implies that non-living organisms such as your very simple virus or the precursor to a living cell did not have a selection mechanism, just like my hypothetical city that was produced by natural forces and undirected chance. So, do you think it’s possible that a living organism can evolve without reproduction? Do you think very simple viruses can evolve without reproduction? -QQuerius
August 26, 2022
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"Most Darwinists involved in the public debate today have one, and only one goal: To stifle free debate on this subject and thereby discourage you, the public, from scrutinizing the scientific evidence for yourself. "Over the years, Darwinists have evolved a variety of strategies to accomplish these goals. We see each of these strategies in play in the op-eds and comments by Darwinists in this present forum on U.S. News and World Report. I'll discuss how my opponents on this forum use the strategies of (1) Ridicule, Demonization, and Character Assassination; (2) Equating Darwin-Skeptics with Religion; (3) Persecute Darwin-Skeptics; and (4) Pretend There Is No Scientific Controversy Over Evolution in order to try to dissuade you, the reader, from thinking for yourself on this subject." Source: https://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/room-for-debate/2009/02/12/darwin-believers-hide-fears-of-intelligent-design-behind-a-wall-of-denial-and-ridiculerelatd
August 26, 2022
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Indeed, Jerry, Gould died in 2002, he was only sixty years old.Alan Fox
August 26, 2022
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Who misquoted Gould? Alan found an article from over 40 years ago and is quoting it.jerry
August 26, 2022
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It is infuriating to be quoted again and again by creationists—whether through design or stupidity, I do not know—as admitting that the fossil record includes no transitional forms. Transitional forms are generally lacking at the species level but are abundant between larger groups. The evolution from reptiles to mammals . . . is well documented
I wonder who said that.Alan Fox
August 26, 2022
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Modern expressions of creationism and especially so-called "scientific" creationism are making extensive use of the tactic of selective quotation in order to make it appear that numerous biologists doubt the reality of evolution. The creationists take advantage of the fact that evolutionary biology is a living science containing disagreements about certain details of the evolutionary process by taking quotations about such details out of context in an attempt to support the creationists' antievolutionary stand. Sometimes they simply take biologists' descriptions of creationism and then ascribe these views to the biologists themselves! These patently dishonest practices of misquotation give us a right to question even the sincerity of creationists.
I wonder who said that.Alan Fox
August 26, 2022
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Who else here thinks JVL is kind of a dumb sh*t?Paxx
August 26, 2022
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Seversky at 416, Your knowledge of cartoons is uh... not applicable here.relatd
August 26, 2022
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JVL/411
Relatd: It has been stated that humans and apes have a “common ancestor.” Identify this ancestor and place it at a particular point in time. His name was Roger and he lived near Chicago about 3.95887 million years ago. He had two daughters, Chloe and Fritz. His wife, Smersh, was a potter. Their dog, Tralphaz, won the local show jumping competition.
I'm not sure that's right. I thought his name was Fred and he lived with his wife Wilma and their pet saber-toothed cat in the little town of Bedrock. Next-door neighbors were called Barney and Betty if I recall.Seversky
August 26, 2022
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AF, you indulge in more confession by projection. KFkairosfocus
August 26, 2022
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Relatd: Ah, the non-reply reply. I learned from you how not to reply to direct questions. How did I do?JVL
August 26, 2022
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Asauber: When and where specifically did hummingbird wings develop? Provide evidence for your answer. If I do my best to track this down will you then do the same, that is specify when design was implemented?JVL
August 26, 2022
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JVL at 411, Ah, the non-reply reply. Your credibility decreases.relatd
August 26, 2022
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Relatd: It has been stated that humans and apes have a “common ancestor.” Identify this ancestor and place it at a particular point in time. His name was Roger and he lived near Chicago about 3.95887 million years ago. He had two daughters, Chloe and Fritz. His wife, Smersh, was a potter. Their dog, Tralphaz, won the local show jumping competition.JVL
August 26, 2022
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You just indicated that you know nothing about punctuated equilibrium.
Dunning? Kruger? Anyone?Alan Fox
August 26, 2022
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"Pick a particular transition you are interested in and I will do my best to reply." Troll, When and where specifically did hummingbird wings develop? Provide evidence for your answer. Andrewasauber
August 26, 2022
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