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At Evolution News: Mammoth Support for Devolution

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Michael Behe writes:

The more science progresses, the more hapless Darwin seems.

In my 2019 book Darwin Devolves I showed that random mutation and natural selection are powerful de-volutionary forces. That is, they quickly lead to the loss of genetic information. The reason is that, in many environmental circumstances, a species’ lot can be improved most quickly by breaking or blunting pre-existing genes. To get the point across, I used an analogy to a quick way to improve a car’s gas mileage — remove the hood, throw out the doors, get rid of any excess weight. That will help the car go further, but it also reduces the number of features of the car. And it sure doesn’t explain how any of those now-jettisoned parts got there in the first place.

Image credit: Thomas Quine, CC BY 2.0 , via Wikimedia Commons.

The Bottom Line

The same goes for biology. Helpful mutations that arrive most quickly are very much more likely to degrade genetic features than to construct new ones. The featured illustration in Darwin Devolves was the polar bear, which has accumulated a number of beneficial mutations since it branched off from the brown bear a few hundred thousand years ago. Yet the large majority of those beneficial mutations were degradative — they broke or damaged pre-existing genes. For example, a gene involved in fur pigmentation was damaged, rendering the beast white — that helped; another gene involved in fat metabolism was degraded, allowing the animal to consume lots of seal blubber, its main food in the Arctic — that helped, too. Those mutations were good for the species in the moment — they did improve its chances of survival. But degradative mutations don’t explain how the functioning genes got there in the first place. Even worse, the relentless burning of genetic information to adapt to a changing environment will make a species evolutionarily brittle and more prone to extinction. The bottom line: Although random mutation and natural selection help a species adapt, Darwinian processes can’t account for the origins of sophisticated biological systems.

In Darwin Devolves, I also mentioned work on DNA extracted from frozen woolly mammoth carcasses that showcased devolution: “26 genes were shown to be seriously degraded, many of which (as with polar bear) were involved in fat metabolism, critical in the extremely cold environments that the mammoth roamed.” It turns out that was an underestimate. A new paper1 that has sequenced DNA from several more woolly mammoth remains says the true number is more than triple that — 87 genes broken compared to their elephant relatives. 

There’s Lots More

The point is that these gene losses aren’t side shows — they are the events that transformed an elephant into a mammoth, that adapted the animal to its changing environment. A job well done, yes, but now those genes are gone forever, unavailable to help with the next change of environment. Perhaps that contributed to eventual mammoth extinction.

As quoted above, the mammoth authors note that gene losses can be adaptive, and they cited a paper that I hadn’t seen before. I checked it out and it’s a wonderful laboratory evolution study of yeast.2 Helsen et al. (2020) used a collection of yeast strains in which one of each different gene in the genome had been knocked out. They grew the knockout yeast in a stressful environment and watched to see how the microbes evolved to handle it. Many of the yeast strains, with different genes initially knocked out, recovered, and some even surpassed the fitness of wild-type yeast under the circumstances. The authors emphasized the fact of the evolutionary recovery. However, they also clearly stated (but don’t seem to have noticed the importance of the fact) that all of the strains rebounded by breaking other genes, ones that had been intact at the beginning of the experiment. None built anything new, all of them devolved.

Well, Duh

That’s hardly a surprise. At least in retrospect, it’s easy to see that devolution must happen — for the simple reason that helpful degradative mutations are more plentiful than helpful constructive ones and thus arrive more quickly for natural selection to multiply. The more recent results recounted here just pile more evidence onto that gathered in Darwin Devolves showing Darwin’s mechanism is powerfully devolutionary. That simple realization neatly explains results ranging from the evolutionary behavior of yeast in a comfy modern laboratory, to the speciation of megafauna in raw nature millions of years ago, and almost certainly to everything in between.

References

  1. Van der Valk, Tom, et al. 2022. Evolutionary consequences of genomic deletions and insertions in the woolly mammoth genome. iScience 25, 104826.
  2. Helsen, J. et al. 2020. Gene loss predictably drives evolutionary adaptation. Molecular Biology and Evolution 37, 2989–3002.

Behe’s conclusions have significant implications: evolutionary adaptation seems to progress by breaking existing genes in such a way as to confer a survival advantage in a niche environment; the result is a more “brittle” species with fewer options for surviving further environmental stresses; the mystery of the origin of the original genes is in no way explained by natural means at any step in the process. Rather than Darwinian evolution providing a mechanism for the “origin of the species,” it more adequately explains the demise of species.

Comments
JVL at 405, It has been stated that humans and apes have a "common ancestor." Identify this ancestor and place it at a particular point in time.relatd
August 26, 2022
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I am very aware of punctuated equilibrium
You just indicated that you know nothing about punctuated equilibrium. You cited a Wikipedia article which does not have the primary process for punctuated equilibrium. As I said no one here understands how it is supposed to work. Brosius was given the privilege of the opening article in the praise of Gould. Here’s the abstract
Disparity, adaptation, exaptation, bookkeeping, and contingency at the genome level Abstract: The application of molecular genetics, in particular comparative genomics, to the field of evolutionary biology is paving the way to an enhanced “New Synthesis.” Apart from their power to establish and refine phylogenies, understanding such genomic processes as the dynamics of change in genomes, even in hypothetical RNA-based genomes and the in vitro evolution of RNA molecules, helps to clarify evolutionary principles that are otherwise hidden among the nested hierarchies of evolutionary units. To this end, I outline the course of hereditary material and examine several issues including disparity, causation, or bookkeeping of genes, adaptation, and exaptation, as well as evolutionary contingency at the genomic level–issues at the heart of some of Stephen Jay Gould's intellectual battlegrounds. Interestingly, where relevant, the genomic perspective is consistent with Gould's agenda. Extensive documentation makes it particularly clear that exaptation plays a role in evolutionary processes that is at least as significant as–and perhaps more significant than–that played by adaptation.
Jürgen Brosius Paleobiology Vol. 31, No. 2, Supplement. Macroevolution: Diversity, Disparity, Contingency: Essays in Honor of Stephen Jay Gould (Spring, 2005), pp. 1-16 It’s really quite simple. Some area of non coding DNA (often called junk DNA) mutates away over long periods of time till it is exapted for use. Possibly with other proteins that have no effect on the organism. That’s why there is a sudden change. Not because something happens rapidly but because for eons the sequence did not produce anything that affected the organism. Aside: I don’t personally believe this is what happens. It’s just no one here is aware of a process that is touted as the cause of naturalized Evolution. Meanwhile other irrelevant stuff is regurgitated over and over.jerry
August 26, 2022
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RNA world seems to be gaining some ground.
Indeed. RNA can be (and still is in significant ways) both replicator and catalyst which means the genetic code is a later add-on.
I figure it might have been some really spare like a minimalist virus but one that could reproduce just given naturally available resources.
Viruses are parasites. They can't have preceded free-living organisms.Alan Fox
August 26, 2022
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Relatd: Please provide all dates and times when evolution was implemented – at all relevant stages. Pick a particular transition you are interested in and I will do my best to reply.JVL
August 26, 2022
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Kairosfocus: you saw a super easy test, one that can be done with a good random number generator hooked up to a PC. It has been done and runs a factor of 10^100 short of threshold config space size. And how does that map onto the biological landscape? You need to be clear and explicit, not just hinting. So, again, what kind of evidence would you accept? We know artificial selection strongly tends to hit limits, and that breeds tend to be less viable in the wild. Of course because the breeds were not bred to survive in the wild!! We know that fold domains are deeply isolated in AA sequence space. You need to spell that out. We know the limitations of drug resistance, especially malaria. Please show that evidence.JVL
August 26, 2022
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JVL at 402, "when design was implemented at least." Please provide all dates and times when evolution was implemented - at all relevant stages.relatd
August 26, 2022
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Querius: Show me the evidence. What basic biological replicator? Show me how it was formed without an even more basic biological replicator. As well you know we don't know what that basic replicator was . . . yet. RNA world seems to be gaining some ground. I figure it might have been some really spare like a minimalist virus but one that could reproduce just given naturally available resources. But it would have had to be very simple. Are you referring to the miraculous “Cambrian explosion” where all the basic body plans of living things magically materialized? I'm just asking you to fill-out the ID paradigm a bit. Like saying something about when design was implemented at least. Yes, they are. Look up “Cambrian explosion.” How long was the Cambrian explosion? You won’t because you know you can’t. You’re operating on faith that it musta somehow happened. Well, there is still the possibility that some bit of biological substance got placed on Earth somehow. I can't rule that out but it does just put the real beginning of life back to some other place at some other time. Oh, so you’re claiming that after millions and millions of years, computers, jet aircraft, and cities that are far less complex than a living cell will spontaneously evolve without intelligent design. If we found these on Mars, would you say they evolved from natural causes or would you say they were intelligently designed? Clearly non-living, non-natural structures are created by intelligent beings. Again, you're not actually addressing the real unguided evolutionary argument. But that's not very surprising.JVL
August 26, 2022
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"I don’t ignore it, I just don’t think it’s very good science." Troll, Appealing to "millions of years" so unknown magic can happen is good science? Andrewasauber
August 26, 2022
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Jerry: No one on this site on either side is the least bit interested in punctuated equilibrium let alone understand the basis for it. It was promoted by Stephen Gould. I am very aware of punctuated equilibrium having read several books of essays by Stephen J Gould and also Richard Dawkins discussion of it (comparing his view with Gould). It was introduced (by Gould and . . . Eldridge?) as a possible explanation for gaps in the fossil record which seemed to be very short, the idea being that sometimes, under certain circumstances, evolution can 'speed up' a bit and changes happen quickly. When the equilibrium gets punctured a small population can get modified in short order. The trouble is, of course, that it's impossible to say whether or not that was the case for situations that were not actually observed. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punctuated_equilibriumJVL
August 26, 2022
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JVL at 398, This isn't about honesty or "sensible, intelligent people." This is a clash of worldviews, not science. One is the atheist 'nothing made human beings' idea followed by the 'human beings are no accident' idea. You need to realize that your attempts to ignore that have been recognized as attempts to ignore that. Both sides can't be right.relatd
August 26, 2022
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Asauber: When the science that doesn’t support unguided evolutionary theory is shown to you, you preferentially choose to ignore it. You’re in denial, there is no doubt of that. I don't ignore it, I just don't think it's very good science. Or your interpretation of it is skewed. I've noticed that your response is much the same as many commenters here; if I disagree then I didn't understand the point or I ignored it or I'm lying. You just can't get it through your head that sensible, intelligent people might disagree with you. I know you disagree with me but I don't cast aspersions on your honesty or intelligence.JVL
August 26, 2022
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JVL, you saw a super easy test, one that can be done with a good random number generator hooked up to a PC. It has been done and runs a factor of 10^100 short of threshold config space size. We know the gaps in Darwin pond type exercises, which we all know have been done. We know artificial selection strongly tends to hit limits, and that breeds tend to be less viable in the wild. We know that fold domains are deeply isolated in AA sequence space. We know the limitations of drug resistance, especially malaria. Those are all tests we all know about so the pretence that we cannot pose tests is another empty gambit. KFkairosfocus
August 26, 2022
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JVL @360,
Querius: Of course you can’t see with your eyes tightly shut! JVL: Shut to what? Show me the evidence.
Shut to the next sentence that followed in my comment.
Querius: There’s no demonstrable biophysics that can ratchet up complexity to the astonishing level within a living cell! JVL: I think the case has been made once there is a basic biological replicator.
Show me the evidence. What basic biological replicator? Show me how it was formed without an even more basic biological replicator.
JVL: Meanwhile, back at the ID ranch . . . when did your undefined and unobserved designer do what exactly?
Are you referring to the miraculous “Cambrian explosion” where all the basic body plans of living things magically materialized?
Querius: Make a smoothy out of bacterial cells, hit it with electricity, heat, cold, atmospheric gases, whatever, to demonstrate this fantasy of self organization into extremely high levels of complexity. You won’t because you know you can’t. JVL: No one is claiming it happened quickly or in one big event. Why do you keep railing against an argument no one is making?
Yes, they are. Look up “Cambrian explosion.” But that’s not even my challenge. Show me how the bacterially derived components for life organized themselves to create “a basic biological replicator.” You won’t because you know you can’t. You’re operating on faith that it musta somehow happened.
Querius: And then, you claim you don’t have any evidence of external intervention that would otherwise be OBVIOUS in computers, jet aircraft, and cities that are far less complex than a living cell. JVL: That’s right, I haven’t seen any credible evidence that there was any intervention in a process that took literally millions and millions of years just to get to the first multi-celled creature. Great design that eh?
Oh, so you’re claiming that after millions and millions of years, computers, jet aircraft, and cities that are far less complex than a living cell will spontaneously evolve without intelligent design. If we found these on Mars, would you say they evolved from natural causes or would you say they were intelligently designed?
Querius: If it walks like a duck, flies like a duck, and quacks like a duck, you’re not convinced that it isn’t a giraffe. JVL: (gives brow-beating troll response)
Yes, you're right, Relatd. -QQuerius
August 26, 2022
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But, please, show me I’m wrong.
No one on this site on either side is the least bit interested in punctuated equilibrium let alone understand the basis for it. It was promoted by Stephen Gould. There is a book on macroevolution (Macroevolution: Diversity, Disparity, Contingency: Essays in Honor of Stephen Jay Gould) but it really is a reprint of an issue of the journal Paleobiology in honor of Gould. The opening article in this book was given to Jurgen Brosius and is titled
Disparity, adaptation, exaptation, bookkeeping, and contingency at the genome level Paleobiology, 31(2), 2005, pp. 1-16
It is about how punctuated equilibrium happens and the research supporting it. Journal issue
Paleobiology, Vol. 31, No. 2, Supplement. Macroevolution: Diversity, Disparity,Contingency: Essays in Honor of Stephen Jay Gould (Spring, 2005)
My guess is that no one on this site except myself has read this book/journal and thus does not understand the basis for punctuated equilibrium. I have posted this several times over the years. Prediction: in six months from now - everyone on this site will still not understand the basis for punctuated equilibrium. But that will not stop them from holding forth on molecular biology as the basis/non basis for Evolution. My personal opinion - this is all about the origin of proteins. I maintain even though the punctuated equilibrium people has a theory, it is far from enough to explain what has happened. However, it is never addressed. So there is a group of evolutionary biologists who believe the protein origin issue has been solved and no one from ID addresses their beliefs as not justified. Should not be discussed on this OPjerry
August 26, 2022
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Ba77 at 390, You should consider another possibility other than denial. The atheist can also be promoting Darwinism even though scientific evidence for Intelligent Design shows blind, unguided chance to be incapable of doing what it claims. Keep in mind, that in the West, to keep power and influence/control over the people, they need to be given a belief based not on science but ideology. This ideology is presented as science but it is not. What Darwin dreamed up was used and abused by some to promote eugenics. In conclusion, this Darwinian worldview cannot be abandoned. If it is not promoted then the dreaded religious will fill the vacuum. This will lead to actual science and a great disaster: the collapse of the Darwinian idea and the replacement, in the minds of the people, with a life that was created and developed by an intelligence. However, I do not have high hopes that JVL and some others here will change anything. The mission to promote evolution cannot be abandoned. • 'The Church “proclaims that by the light of reason the human intellect can readily and clearly discern purpose and design in the natural world, including the world of living things.” "Christoph Cardinal Schönborn is archbishop of Vienna and general editor of the Catechism of the Catholic Church."relatd
August 26, 2022
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Motes and beams, Andy. :)Alan Fox
August 26, 2022
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"Which has nothing to say about whether or not the science supports the heavily supported over many decades and generation unguided evolutionary theory." Troll, When the science that doesn't support unguided evolutionary theory is shown to you, you preferentially choose to ignore it. You're in denial, there is no doubt of that. Andrewasauber
August 26, 2022
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Bornagain77: so JVL resorts to denial of his denialism? You're really reaching. I said: Which has nothing to say about whether or not the science supports the heavily supported over many decades and generation unguided evolutionary theory. I denied nothing. Perhaps you'd like to address the science supporting unguided evolutionary instead of claiming some innate psychological trait in humans has anything to do with what is true.JVL
August 26, 2022
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^^^^ Hmm, so JVL resorts to denial of his denialism? Apparently the mental disorder of denialism in JVL is far worse than expected. :)
In the psychology of human behavior, denialism is a person's choice to deny reality, as a way to avoid a psychologically uncomfortable truth. Denialism - Wikipedia
Which begs the question of exactly why are JVL, and other atheists, so uncomfortable with their intuition of Design? Exactly what have they got to lose save for the utter despair and nihilism inherent within their atheistic worldview? A worldview which denies that JVL's life, or any other life, has any real meaning or value?
“I maintain that whatever else faith may be, it cannot be a delusion. The advantageous effect of religious belief and spirituality on mental and physical health is one of the best-kept secrets in psychiatry and medicine generally. If the findings of the huge volume of research on this topic had gone in the opposite direction and it had been found that religion damages your mental health, it would have been front-page news in every newspaper in the land.” - Professor Andrew Sims former President of the Royal College of Psychiatrists - Is Faith Delusion?: Why religion is good for your health - preface “In the majority of studies, religious involvement is correlated with well-being, happiness and life satisfaction; hope and optimism; purpose and meaning in life; higher self-esteem; better adaptation to bereavement; greater social support and less loneliness; lower rates of depression and faster recovery from depression; lower rates of suicide and fewer positive attitudes towards suicide; less anxiety; less psychosis and fewer psychotic tendencies; lower rates of alcohol and drug use and abuse; less delinquency and criminal activity; greater marital stability and satisfaction… We concluded that for the vast majority of people the apparent benefits of devout belief and practice probably outweigh the risks.” - Professor Andrew Sims former President of the Royal College of Psychiatrists - Is Faith Delusion?: Why religion is good for your health – page 100
bornagain77
August 26, 2022
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Bornagain77: Specifically, studies have now established that the design inference is an innate, ‘knee jerk’, inference that is built into everyone, especially including atheists, and that atheists have to mentally work to suppress their “knee jerk” design inference! Which has nothing to say about whether or not the science supports the heavily supported over many decades and generation unguided evolutionary theory. In fact, one might say that overcoming an innate reaction and coming to a contrary conclusion speaks to the strength of the evidence against the reaction.JVL
August 26, 2022
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Kairosfocus: you full well know that were it observed that FSCO/I beyond the 500 – 1,000 bit threshold does come about by blind chance and mechanical necessity, the design inference on the world of life would collapse. The attempt to project or suggest that the inference is not subject to empirical test or analytic falsification is a rhetorical gambit of desperation and cynical obfuscation What kind of observation(s) would you accept? Please be specific and clear.JVL
August 26, 2022
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As to JVL trying to turn the tables and say that it is ID proponents, not Darwinists, that are in Denial. Well like everything else for the Darwinist, the science itself simply does not support JVL's claim that ID proponents are in the midst of denial, but instead the science itself supports the ID proponents's claim that Darwinists are the ones who are in the midst of denialism. Specifically, studies have now established that the design inference is an innate, ‘knee jerk’, inference that is built into everyone, especially including atheists, and that atheists have to mentally work to suppress their “knee jerk” design inference!
Is Atheism a Delusion? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Ii-bsrHB0o Design Thinking Is Hardwired in the Human Brain. How Come? - October 17, 2012 Excerpt: "Even Professional Scientists Are Compelled to See Purpose in Nature, Psychologists Find." The article describes a test by Boston University's psychology department, in which researchers found that "despite years of scientific training, even professional chemists, geologists, and physicists from major universities such as Harvard, MIT, and Yale cannot escape a deep-seated belief that natural phenomena exist for a purpose" ,,, Most interesting, though, are the questions begged by this research. One is whether it is even possible to purge teleology from explanation. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/10/design_thinking065381.html Richard Dawkins take heed: Even atheists instinctively believe in a creator says study - Mary Papenfuss - June 12, 2015 Excerpt: Three studies at Boston University found that even among atheists, the "knee jerk" reaction to natural phenomenon is the belief that they're purposefully designed by some intelligence, according to a report on the research in Cognition entitled the "Divided Mind of a disbeliever." The findings "suggest that there is a deeply rooted natural tendency to view nature as designed," writes a research team led by Elisa Järnefelt of Newman University. They also provide evidence that, in the researchers' words, "religious non-belief is cognitively effortful." Researchers attempted to plug into the automatic or "default" human brain by showing subjects images of natural landscapes and things made by human beings, then requiring lightning-fast responses to the question on whether "any being purposefully made the thing in the picture," notes Pacific-Standard. "Religious participants' baseline tendency to endorse nature as purposefully created was higher" than that of atheists, the study found. But non-religious participants "increasingly defaulted to understanding natural phenomena as purposefully made" when "they did not have time to censor their thinking," wrote the researchers. The results suggest that "the tendency to construe both living and non-living nature as intentionally made derives from automatic cognitive processes, not just practised explicit beliefs," the report concluded. The results were similar even among subjects from Finland, where atheism is not a controversial issue as it can be in the US. "Design-based intuitions run deep," the researchers conclude, "persisting even in those with no explicit religious commitment and, indeed, even among those with an active aversion to them." http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/richard-dawkins-take-heed-even-atheists-instinctively-believe-creator-says-study-1505712
It is not that Atheists do not see purpose and/or Design in nature and biology, it is that Atheists, for whatever severely misguided reason, live in denial of the purpose and/or Design that they themselves intuitively see in nature and biology. Perhaps the two most famous quotes of atheists suppressing their innate ‘design inference’ are the two following quotes:
“Yet the living results of natural selection overwhelmingly impress us with the appearance of design as if by a master watchmaker, impress us with the illusion of design and planning.” - Richard Dawkins – “The Blind Watchmaker” – 1986 – page 21 “Biologists must constantly keep in mind that what they see was not designed, but rather evolved. It might be thought, therefore, that evolutionary arguments would play a large part in guiding biological research, but this is far from the case” - Francis Crick – What Mad Pursuit - 1988
It is easy to see why Francis Crick in particular, co-discoverer of the DNA helix, would be constantly haunted by his intuition that life must be Intelligently Designed. DNA itself literally screams, "I AM INTELLIGENTLY DESIGNED" from every angle that you look at it. https://uncommondescent.com/junk-dna/darwin-lobby-reviewer-junk-dna-helps-creationists/#comment-593439 Verse:
Romans 1:19-20 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.
bornagain77
August 26, 2022
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JVL, you full well know that were it observed that FSCO/I beyond the 500 - 1,000 bit threshold does come about by blind chance and mechanical necessity, the design inference on the world of life would collapse. The attempt to project or suggest that the inference is not subject to empirical test or analytic falsification is a rhetorical gambit of desperation and cynical obfuscation. KF PS, regarding such tests . . .
[Wikipedia confesses regarding the infinite monkeys theorem:] The theorem concerns a thought experiment which cannot be fully carried out in practice, since it is predicted to require prohibitive amounts of time and resources. Nonetheless, it has inspired efforts in finite random text generation. One computer program run by Dan Oliver of Scottsdale, Arizona, according to an article in The New Yorker, came up with a result on August 4, 2004: After the group had worked for 42,162,500,000 billion billion monkey-years, one of the "monkeys" typed,
"VALENTINE. Cease toIdor:eFLP0FRjWK78aXzVOwm)-‘;8.t"
The first 19 letters of this sequence can be found in "The Two Gentlemen of Verona". Other teams have reproduced 18 characters from "Timon of Athens", 17 from "Troilus and Cressida", and 16 from "Richard II".[26] A website entitled The Monkey Shakespeare Simulator, launched on July 1, 2003, contained a Java applet that simulated a large population of monkeys typing randomly, with the stated intention of seeing how long it takes the virtual monkeys to produce a complete Shakespearean play from beginning to end. For example, it produced this partial line from Henry IV, Part 2, reporting that it took "2,737,850 million billion billion billion monkey-years" to reach 24 matching characters:
RUMOUR. Open your ears; 9r"5j5&?OWTY Z0d...
[ACC: Dec 17, 2019. NB: Where, also, as this is a digital age, we will readily see that we can compose a description language and then create a string of yes/no questions to specify any reasonable object -- as say AutoCAD etc do. Thus, our seemingly simplistic discussion on bit strings *-*-*- . . . is in fact without loss of generality [WLOG].] [Comment: 16 - 24 ASCII characters is far short of the relevant thresholds, at best, a factor of about 1 in 10^100. Yes, the article goes on to note that "instead of simply generating random characters one restricts the generator to a meaningful vocabulary and conservatively following grammar rules, like using a context-free grammar, then a random document generated this way can even fool some humans." But, that is simply implicitly conceding that design makes a big difference to what can be done. ]
kairosfocus
August 26, 2022
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JVL, doubling down on denial of evidence elucidated since 1953 on the nature of the genetic code, especially protein-making algorithms does not make that evidence go away. What there truly is no evidence of is FSCO/I of such magnitude beyond the 500 - 1,000 bit threshold coming about by blind chance and mechanical necessity. There is every sort of evidence that it reliably comes about by intelligently directed configuration and is a reliable sign of design. We therefore have cause to infer that language using coded algorithm designers were present to author the codes and algorithms in D/RNA. If that were not inconvenient for an ideology, this wouldn't even be an issue. And, it is perfectly ontologically valid to infer to adequate cause of a key phenomenon that is embedded in the cells of our bodies just as in the cells of other organisms. Designers are possible, we can and do have for key cases reliable signs of design, they are manifestly present, so we have good reason to infer that a process only carried out by capable designers implies just that, capable designers. Who or what specifically they were is not settled by the mere presence of FSCO/I, just that they were. KFkairosfocus
August 26, 2022
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LtComData: Denial is a defense mechanism that (temporarily)keep the person from a bigger damage. Let me ask you a question: is your view falsifiable? Do you agree that it's possible you are incorrect? Do you think it's possible that the chance of you being wrong would be so damaging to your worldview that your base reaction would be denial?JVL
August 25, 2022
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Kairosfocus: What we, contingent designers, demonstrate, is that design is possible, that it may leave signs not plausible on blind chance or mechanical necessity, and of course that designers are possible. Obviously designers are possible. Humans exist, humans design. Have we seen any other designers that come close to having the abilities you assume were necessary? Nope. Have we seen any other physical evidence such designers exist? Nope. Have we detected signals or messages from any such designers? Nope. You can't logic beings into existence. You can guess, hypothesise all you want but until you find more evidence that such beings exist all you have is a guess. Failing the existence of the hoped for designers what remains is unguided natural forces. But we also have a growing body of evidence that the unguided processes actually are capable of creating life forms as we observe. So, there is a solid, growing positive case for the ability of unguided processes. Which means we have no need of your hypothesis. Good solid logic. Good solid parsimonious conclusion.JVL
August 25, 2022
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Kairosfocus JVL, you seem to imagine that by doubling down on abuse of inductive logic you can sideline signs of design as cause.
Denial is a defense mechanism that (temporarily)keep the person from a bigger damage. All of us have this mechanism of defense. Somebody can't face a dragon before is mentally prepared for that otherwise will freeze and will be eaten . It's better to hide from the dragon(to be in denial) until you are ready.Lieutenant Commander Data
August 25, 2022
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JVL, you seem to imagine that by doubling down on abuse of inductive logic you can sideline signs of design as cause. What we, contingent designers, demonstrate, is that design is possible, that it may leave signs not plausible on blind chance or mechanical necessity, and of course that designers are possible. Therefore, if we see evidence of signs of design in the cell etc, which we do, that is very reasonably evidence of design long before us, and pointing onward that entities capable of design were there, then. That to try to rhetorically blunt this otherwise fairly obvious result you have to abuse induction speaks volumes. Clearly a problem with SETI is its best case in point is an uinwelcome case, the cell. KFkairosfocus
August 25, 2022
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Relatd: Those three things are easily proven. Well go ahead then. I notice you accepted my statement as likely true instead of asking: Did you work for the NSA? I did not but I added that example to check on your fact checking ability. You failed. Oh well you're clearly a lot more intelligent than me. Anyway, see if you can figure out my true motivation.JVL
August 25, 2022
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I work with professional writers.
Yes, you've mentioned this several times. And the relevance is?Alan Fox
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