Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Back to Basics on Whether Truth is Adaptive

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

The title of my last post was Reality is the Wall You Smack into When You’re Wrong.  In response to that title Seversky pushed back:

Can we assume from this [title] that you agree with me that the argument that our minds were shaped for survival but not for truth is a false dichotomy? In other words, if we form false beliefs about reality then, sooner or later, we will run smack into it so natural selection will favor the formation of true beliefs?

I was more than a little surprised at Sev’s response, because since Darwin himself, the standard Darwinian line has been exactly the opposite of that which he asserted.  Natural selection selects for fitness, not for truth.  In an 1881 letter to William Graham Darwin wrote:

But then with me the horrid doubt always arises whether the convictions of man’s mind, which has been developed from the mind of the lower animals, are of any value or at all trustworthy. Would any one trust in the convictions of a monkey’s mind, if there are any convictions in such a mind?

To be sure, the doubt Darwin was expressing was not in his own theory; it was in a creator.  It never seemed to occur to him that he was sawing off the branch on which his own theory was sitting.  Nevertheless, he understood the epistemological conundrum his theory creates (if only selectively).

Nothing has changed in 133 years.  As Wells outlines in Zombie Science, Darwinsists Ajit Varki and Danny Brower absolutely insist that natural selection sometimes favors false thinking.  They say that the modern human mind evolved when early humans overcame their awareness of mortality by acquiring “a massive capacity for denial.” Varki and Brower argue that all non-humans are aware of their own mortality and thus are inhibited from embarking on enterprises—such as scientific discoveries and technological innovations—that transcend the life of a single individual. By evolving a capacity for denying mortality, subhuman creatures became humans and modern culture emerged. But “reality denial” quickly extended to other aspects of reality and produced religion.

Examples of Darwinists asserting that truth is not necessarily adaptive can be multiplied.

Steven Pinker: “our brains were shaped for fitness, not for truth. Sometimes truth is adaptive, but sometimes it is not.”

Eric Baum: “Sometimes you are more likely to survive and propagate if you believe a falsehood than if you believe the truth.”

Donald Hoffman:  “Evolution has shaped us with perceptions that allow us to survive.  They guide adaptive behaviours. But part of that involves hiding from us the stuff we don’t need to know.And that’s pretty much all of reality, whatever reality might be. If you had to spend all that time figuring it out, the tiger would eat you.  According to evolution by natural selection, an organism that sees reality as it is will never be more fit than an organism of equal complexity that sees none of reality but is just tuned to fitness.  Never.”

At this point Goodusername jumps in with this:

Darwinism likely means our brains were shaped for fitness, not for truth, but it’s not as if there’s no link between survival and having a brain that is capable of learning about its environment.

Of course.  Notice how both Pinker and Baum try to have it both ways.  Sometimes truth is adaptive; sometimes it is not.  Sometimes you are more likely to survive if you believe a falsehood.  This implies that at other times you are more likely to survive if you believe the truth.

So dear Goodusername, we can sum the Darwinian narrative up as follows:  believing the truth is adaptive.  Except when it is not.  Then believing a falsehood is adaptive.

That is the beauty of Darwinism.  It explains absolutely everything – and its polar opposite – with equal alacrity.  You believed the truth and survived.  Then truth was adaptive.  You believed a falsehood and survived.  Then the falsehood was adaptive.  You committed rape? Well rape was adaptive in the distant past, and you are just acting according to your hard wiring.  You acted with selfless devotion and sacrifice toward a woman?  Well, altruism was adaptive in the distant past, and you are just acting according to your hard wiring.

Of course, a skeptic might object that a theory that explains everything and its opposite equally well explains nothing.  But if one were of a skeptical bent one wouldn’t be a Darwinist in the first place, so this objection rarely bothers Darwinian true believers.

Comments
Starbuck @50 Haven't seen anyone that triggered around here for awhile.mike1962
September 22, 2017
September
09
Sep
22
22
2017
08:48 AM
8
08
48
AM
PDT
Goodusername: I would indeed have a problem with such a theory where every belief is stored as hereditary information. My first problem (of many) would be – good luck fitting all of that in the human genome.
Is storage your concern? In that case I have a question for you: how do we fit in the genome (which consists mostly of junk-dna) all the information wrt to building a brain — the most complex item of the universe? Anyway, this is an inappropriate argument coming from an evolutionist. Given naturalism, beliefs are not mental phenomena without a material basis. Given naturalism, a belief-behavior-system either is a particular adaptive neurological structure or is an emergent property from such a neurological structure. Adaptive neurological structures are obviously heritable and by implication so are belief-behavior-systems.
Goodusername: Beliefs don’t have an evolutionary history, because beliefs aren’t inherited. Every generation has to relearn the stuff the previous generation already learned.
Even if I grant you this idea, the problem remains and we still have no reason to trust our beliefs. In the end, if we have to trace the origin of beliefs through social transmittance by many generations, we do not find a responsible free rational mind at the source, but instead we find monkeys and lower animals …
But then with me the horrid doubt always arises whether the convictions of man’s mind, which has been developed from the mind of the lower animals, are of any value or at all trustworthy. Would any one trust in the convictions of a monkey’s mind, if there are any convictions in such a mind?
Individual or social inheritance, natural selection works very much the same — see Dawkins on ‘memes’, which evolve by natural selection.Origenes
September 21, 2017
September
09
Sep
21
21
2017
03:54 PM
3
03
54
PM
PDT
Origenes,
 In the case of an evolutionary explanation for beliefs, what we have is random belief-behavior-systems and natural selection as a filter. If you don’t think that this is a credible explanation you have a problem with evolutionary theory, not with Barry or me.
  I would indeed have a problem with such a theory where every belief is stored as hereditary information.  My first problem (of many) would be – good luck fitting all of that in the human genome.  
It does not seem credible, right? But, again, that’s how evolutionary explanations work — countless random trials (mutations) and next weeding out what is non-adaptive. If you don’t like it, join the club.
  It works by mutations and weeding out of hereditary information.  
Each belief that Oog holds has its own individual evolutionary history.
  This is where you keep messing up.  Beliefs don’t have an evolutionary history, because beliefs aren’t inherited. Every generation has to relearn the stuff the previous generation already learned. Much of our desires is probably a result of our dna: We have desires to survive, find companionship, etc. But our way of life is far too complex for pre-coded genes to help with the details of how to fulfill such desires - and that’s where our intelligence and learning comes in. DNA also probably also plays a part in our intelligence, but it doesn’t give us our beliefs.goodusername
September 21, 2017
September
09
Sep
21
21
2017
12:35 PM
12
12
35
PM
PDT
Barry  
 Having been soundly thrashed in the debate, at 51 and 52 GUN pretends to have agreed withe me all along. Shameless.
  Should I put together a post quoting all the times where I said that I agreed with your central claim, Baum, or Pinker?  
 Seriously GUN? All of this thrashing about over an example?
That was some of the thrashing, but most of the thrashing was you saying I was wrong and me trying to get you to explain where you disagreed with me.  
Next time we can avoid all of if you will write something like: “Barry, you are correct. Don’t like that example though.”
I did. I quoted it in #52. I agreed that “a distorted view of reality” could in certain cases help survival - and even gave an alternative example. That was from #36 of the previous thread. You seemed to have a problem with that post for reasons that I still don’t know, and gave a quote from a Darwinist that pretty much just paraphrased what I had just said. Just in case I wasn’t clear enough I stated in my next post: “I would say that there are falsehoods that may be adaptive.” (original emphasis) And I stated my puzzlement as to what you were disagreeing with. I could put together another post of all the times I said I was confused or puzzled as to what you were disagreeing with or asked you to state what it was you were disagreeing with. Each and every time you refused to answer. You refused to answer any other questions as well. The closest you got to ever addressing any question was to mock me for asking it. One way to avoid a lot of wasted time and misunderstandings is to answer basic questions.  Careful reading also helps.goodusername
September 21, 2017
September
09
Sep
21
21
2017
12:24 PM
12
12
24
PM
PDT
Eugene S @57
EugeneS: ... evolutionism maintains an organism is an agent in the sense that it can control its own state ... However, naturalism offers no empirically warranted mechanism for the emergence of autonomous agency, including rationality.
On top of that there are solid arguments which show that naturalism, in principle, cannot ground responsibility, freedom and rationality. Therefore, naturalism has no right to invoke a responsible free rational agent as part of an explanation.Origenes
September 21, 2017
September
09
Sep
21
21
2017
07:23 AM
7
07
23
AM
PDT
"one cannot assume an overarching responsible free rational person who shapes Oog’s belief-system into a logically coherent whole" Well, in all honesty, evolutionism maintains an organism is an agent in the sense that it can control its own state, which is fine. This can theoretically apply to the shaping of belief systems if interpreted as an act of rational agency. However, naturalism offers no empirically warranted mechanism for the emergence of autonomous agency, including rationality. Biological organisms must have had this agency built in from the start: in the case of any organism, the ability of non-conscious decision making; in the case of man, additionally, consciousness, abstract thought, self-awareness, wisdom. Inanimate nature does not have agency simply because it cannot make decisions, choose between physically/chemically degenerate states, set goals, respond to incentives or act "in order to".Eugene S
September 21, 2017
September
09
Sep
21
21
2017
06:31 AM
6
06
31
AM
PDT
Having been soundly thrashed in the debate, at 51 and 52 GUN pretends to have agreed withe me all along. Shameless. Seriously GUN? All of this thrashing about over an example? Next time we can avoid all of if you will write something like: "Barry, you are correct. Don't like that example though."Barry Arrington
September 21, 2017
September
09
Sep
21
21
2017
06:13 AM
6
06
13
AM
PDT
Goodusername, Pindi, Rvb8
Goodusername: Ok, by an incredible – even comical – stroke of luck, Oog didn’t die during those 30 seconds or so of the tiger encounter. So what? Unless you’re saying that Oog grew up, found a mate, reproduced, and reared his offspring, all during that period, what’s the point? We both know – and all the Darwinists you name all know – that he likely dies minutes later from thinking he can fly off a cliff, or thinking bears like to cuddle, or that rocks make a good snack, or that snakes like to play, or a million other ways to die.
I tend to agree, but this is how evolution works: random stuff and natural selection filtering it. In the case of an evolutionary explanation for beliefs, what we have is random belief-behavior-systems and natural selection as a filter. If you don’t think that this is a credible explanation you have a problem with evolutionary theory, not with Barry or me.
Goodusername: Oog’s false belief potentially protects him from a single danger – tigers. Life is full of dangers. And given what he believes about tigers, what chance do you give him against all the other dangers out there? You might hit the lottery once, but one isn’t going to do it multiple times a day, every day, for years on end.
It does not seem credible, right? But, again, that’s how evolutionary explanations work — countless random trials (mutations) and next weeding out what is non-adaptive. If you don’t like it, join the club.
Pindi: It is so ridiculous that you think oog would survive long enough to reach adulthood and breed.
Oog hides from sable tigers which is adaptive behavior. The truth value of Oog’s belief, which informs his behavior towards sable tigers, ...: (1) is irrelevant for survival. (2) tell us nothing about Oog’s other beliefs.
Rvb8: this Ooog chap seems to have a parlous grip on his environment and its ihabitants.
We have no way of knowing, because Oog’s belief about sable tigers tells us nothing about other beliefs Oog may hold. Each belief that Oog holds has its own individual evolutionary history. Oog’s beliefs taken as a whole is a heterogeneous mixture, since, given naturalism, one cannot assume an overarching responsible free rational person who shapes Oog’s belief-system into a logically coherent whole.Origenes
September 21, 2017
September
09
Sep
21
21
2017
03:47 AM
3
03
47
AM
PDT
(1) Whenever Oog's spots a sable tiger he runs and hides, for some bizarre reason. Oog's behavior is fit and adaptive. (2) Oog's belief about sable tigers tells us nothing about Oog's other beliefs. Each belief that Oog holds has its own individual evolutionary history. Oog's beliefs as a whole is without internal logical coherence.Origenes
September 20, 2017
September
09
Sep
20
20
2017
11:54 PM
11
11
54
PM
PDT
Barry, this Ooog chap seems to have a parlous grip on his environment and its ihabitants. Is he an adult? Did he grow up with other Ooog like minded individuals, it seems unlikely that his parents should have survived long enough to, do the dirty. It is a poor and vague example that can be used to prove anything. I have admitted my wrongness, and mistakes here before, and been stung by the admission.rvb8
September 20, 2017
September
09
Sep
20
20
2017
10:15 PM
10
10
15
PM
PDT
It might be worth quoting from an earlier post of mine:
I don’t think the example of Oog is a good one, as Oog is obviously doomed as soon as his luck runs out. If I traveled back in time and saw Oog playing hide and seek with tigers, I would assume that Oog is suffering from advanced syphilis or some kind of massive head injury, and also that this affliction must be very recent as he’s obviously not long for this world. He’s obviously someone in need of a caregiver. A better example would be the classic example of the caveman hearing rustling in nearby bushes. The odds may be 1/1000 or 1/100 of it being a panther, but at the time where the caveman hears the rustling it might be better for him to think the odds are closer to 50/50, even though that’s likely a distorted view of reality. In this case there might be such a thing as a healthy dose of paranoia.
Notice that I wasn't disagreeing with your central claim. It was ONLY the example that I had a problem - and then came up with my own.goodusername
September 20, 2017
September
09
Sep
20
20
2017
09:09 PM
9
09
09
PM
PDT
Barry,
None of you have refuted that claim.
Why would I? As I said, the claim is probably true.
Instead, you have latched onto an example as if that example is the claim. If you don’t like the example, come up with your own.
WE are the ones that have been trying to explain that to you. I've been saying that finding the Oog example as silly is not the same as disagreeing with Baum. And I *did* come up with another example (and one that is more in line with what the Darwinists you list are talking about: the paranoia regarding the rustling in the bushes.) So despite saying that I agreed with Baum - and coming up with my own example - you still claimed (#26) that I disagreed with Baum. Why would you say that unless you were the one latching onto the Oog example as if it was the same as Baum's claim?
At the end of the day, you have not touched the claim itself.
Hallelujah! That's been my point all along. If you accept that, we are in full agreement.
You are boring me now. Move along.
It might help if you actually followed the conversation.goodusername
September 20, 2017
September
09
Sep
20
20
2017
08:58 PM
8
08
58
PM
PDT
And how much of this is true of you Barry? You two-bit piece of shit bankruptcy lawyer with awful reviews on BBB? How much better could your career be if your map of reality matched reality? Ya fucking wanker.Starbuck
September 20, 2017
September
09
Sep
20
20
2017
08:27 PM
8
08
27
PM
PDT
Some strapping young caveman tried to join Oog's tribe but he was too busy being an idiot.Starbuck
September 20, 2017
September
09
Sep
20
20
2017
08:21 PM
8
08
21
PM
PDT
OK boys, the claim I made is same one Braun made. Under Darwinian theory, sometimes you are more likely to survive and propagate if you believe a falsehood than if you believe the truth. None of you have refuted that claim. Instead, you have latched onto an example as if that example is the claim. If you don't like the example, come up with your own. At the end of the day, you have not touched the claim itself. You are boring me now. Move along.Barry Arrington
September 20, 2017
September
09
Sep
20
20
2017
08:17 PM
8
08
17
PM
PDT
Also, playing hide and seek with a large predatory cat is not like playing hide and seek with your grandchildren, Barry. You think the sabre tooth can't detect poor wee oog hiding behind his bush? Hint, large predatory cats have a good sense of smell. It is so ridiculous that you think oog would survive long enough to reach adulthood and breed.Pindi
September 20, 2017
September
09
Sep
20
20
2017
08:04 PM
8
08
04
PM
PDT
Winter comes
Oog doesn't live nearly that long.goodusername
September 20, 2017
September
09
Sep
20
20
2017
07:35 PM
7
07
35
PM
PDT
Allow me to finish the story. Oog the caveman thinks it's fun to run and hide from Sabretooth tigers. Meanwhile her cousin Shooog has figured out how to trap and kill them, strip them of their furs, and cook and eat their meat. Winter comes. Oog is so skinny from all that running and hiding, and dies from either starvation or freezing to death. Meanwhile, Shooog is fat and warm from all that sabretooth meat and furs and has a comfortable winter. Some strapping young caveman joins her tribe and they have children. Moral of the story, your false beliefs may get you lucky, but your luck will run out, make your own luck by making sure your map of reality matches reality as much as possible.Starbuck
September 20, 2017
September
09
Sep
20
20
2017
07:30 PM
7
07
30
PM
PDT
Barry @38. such a boring tactic. Demand something that supports a claim your opponent never made and then declare victory. Your are the person changing the topic. The topic is whether a caveman who believes sabre tooth tigers are fun to play with is well adapted to his environment. You seem to think surviving one instance of playing hide and seek with a sabre tooth is the definition of survival in an evolutionary sense. Survival in an evolutionary sense means surviving long enough to reproduce. You think a caveman who likes playing with sabre tooth tigers is ever going to get old enough to breed?Pindi
September 20, 2017
September
09
Sep
20
20
2017
07:08 PM
7
07
08
PM
PDT
BA @ 38: Well done!Truth Will Set You Free
September 20, 2017
September
09
Sep
20
20
2017
05:58 PM
5
05
58
PM
PDT
mocking claims I never made, much less defended
such as?goodusername
September 20, 2017
September
09
Sep
20
20
2017
05:57 PM
5
05
57
PM
PDT
Dear readers, Notice GUN's latest tack. Having been soundly thrashed in the underlying argument, he then goes on a rant mocking claims I never made, much less defended. Typical Darwinian tactic: If you are losing, change the subject. Sad.Barry Arrington
September 20, 2017
September
09
Sep
20
20
2017
05:31 PM
5
05
31
PM
PDT
Barry,
OK, let’s do it this way. Can one of you cite a paper than says truth is always adaptive and error is never adaptive? I’ll wait.
You can wait, but no one is arguing such a thing.
If the organism survives, it was, by definition, fit. In the Oog example, he survived because he hid from the Tiger. And since Oog survived, he was, by definition, fit. The point of the example is that it was his behavior (hiding) not not his belief (Tigers like to play) that caused him to survive. Therefore, he survived because his behavior was adaptive even though his beliefs were false.
Ok, by an incredible - even comical - stroke of luck, Oog didn’t die during those 30 seconds or so of the tiger encounter. So what? Unless you’re saying that Oog grew up, found a mate, reproduced, and reared his offspring, all during that period, what’s the point? We both know - and all the Darwinists you name all know - that he likely dies minutes later from thinking he can fly off a cliff, or thinking bears like to cuddle, or that rocks make a good snack, or that snakes like to play, or a million other ways to die. Oog’s false belief potentially protects him from a single danger - tigers. Life is full of dangers. And given what he believes about tigers, what chance do you give him against all the other dangers out there? You might hit the lottery once, but one isn't going to do it multiple times a day, every day, for years on end. And if - miracle of miracles - he rears children, his children aren’t even protected from that single danger, as his belief about tigers isn’t heritable. Are you taking Baum’s statement to an extreme absurdity in an attempt to mock him, or are you seriously suggesting that agreeing with Baum equates to believing that Oog successfully rears offspring?goodusername
September 20, 2017
September
09
Sep
20
20
2017
03:42 PM
3
03
42
PM
PDT
Origenes,
I take it that you mean to say that behavior and beliefs are not hereditary. According to you there is no evolutionary explanation for these things.
I wouldn’t disagree with that. How the brain works - particularly details of how ideas are formed, what determines intelligence, how memories are stored, etc etc - are almost entirely mysterious.
Whatever… I will rephrase my question: I suppose that there is a material mechanistic relation between ”the particles that form the brain” and adjacent beliefs and behavior.
There’s likely a genetic component to some desires - a desire to live, for companionship, food, etc. These, of course, have an influence on behavior, and perhaps on beliefs to some extent. So I would agree that a relation exists.
If you are correct and these particles are heritable, then so are the beliefs and behavior that are mechanistically connected to them. Agree?
No, that’d be like saying that since the heritable particles form the brain and prepare it to store memories, that all the memories will then be inherited. Again, if that were true then each generation wouldn’t have to relearn what the previously already learned. Children aren’t born knowing the books that their parents read (and their parents, etc) without needing to read them themselves. Children aren’t even born knowing the alphabet.goodusername
September 20, 2017
September
09
Sep
20
20
2017
03:38 PM
3
03
38
PM
PDT
Pindi, Starbuck, CR, Sev, Still waiting for that paper that says believing the truth is always adaptive and believing a falsehood never is. Tick Tock. Come on boys. We don't have all day.Barry Arrington
September 20, 2017
September
09
Sep
20
20
2017
03:35 PM
3
03
35
PM
PDT
Pindi @35 You don't seem to understand the argument. Maybe this helps:
Origenes: … there are far more false beliefs that lead to a specific appropriate action then that single true belief that leads to the same appropriate action.
Goodusername: I’m not saying that one needs the single true belief – I’m saying that beliefs that correlate more closely with reality are more likely to result in more appropriate actions than other beliefs.
Origenes: I am not convinced. Let’s look at your claim more closely. Plantinga provided the following example: Paul “thinks the tiger is a large, friendly, cuddly pussycat and wants to pet it; but he also believes that the best way to pet it is to run away from it.” Let’s call this belief A and let’s assume that it is does not correlate closely to reality at all. Now consider a belief B that goes like this: ‘Paul thinks the tiger wants to eat him and he believes that this is fitting end of his life because he (Paul) is a bad person who deserves to be eaten by a tiger.’ Now let’s assume that belief B correlates closely to reality. Which belief is more likely to result in appropriate adaptive behavior? A or B?
Origenes
September 20, 2017
September
09
Sep
20
20
2017
02:53 PM
2
02
53
PM
PDT
Pindi, And I can't believe that for someone who comments so often in these pages, you don't have seem to have the faintest clue what adaptation or fitness mean in the context of evolutionary theory. If the organism survives, it was, by definition, fit. In the Oog example, he survived because he hid from the Tiger. And since Oog survived, he was, by definition, fit. The point of the example is that it was his behavior (hiding) not not his belief (Tigers like to play) that caused him to survive. Therefore, he survived because his behavior was adaptive even though his beliefs were false. Sheesh. This is basic stuff. I am truly astounded that you don't seem to understand it. I expected you would push back at me. But pushing back at Varki, Brower, Pinker, Baum and Hoffman -- fellow Darwinists all -- is really too much.Barry Arrington
September 20, 2017
September
09
Sep
20
20
2017
02:52 PM
2
02
52
PM
PDT
Barry, what I am disagreeing with is that a caveman that was so poorly adapted to his environment that be believes sabre tooth tigers are fun to play with is going to survive long enough to breed in comparison to a caveman who recognises the truth about sabre tooth tigers. Surely that is obvious. I can't believe you are denying it with a straight face.Pindi
September 20, 2017
September
09
Sep
20
20
2017
01:50 PM
1
01
50
PM
PDT
>Knowledge is independent of a knowing subject. God help us.Mung
September 20, 2017
September
09
Sep
20
20
2017
01:24 PM
1
01
24
PM
PDT
CR, do you also disagree with prominent Darwinist Eric Baum when he says “Sometimes you are more likely to survive and propagate if you believe a falsehood than if you believe the truth.” Do you disagree that Baum's assertion is not the least bit controversial? Can you cite a single paper that disagrees with him? I'll wait.Barry Arrington
September 20, 2017
September
09
Sep
20
20
2017
12:58 PM
12
12
58
PM
PDT
1 2 3

Leave a Reply