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Back to Basics on Whether Truth is Adaptive

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The title of my last post was Reality is the Wall You Smack into When You’re Wrong.  In response to that title Seversky pushed back:

Can we assume from this [title] that you agree with me that the argument that our minds were shaped for survival but not for truth is a false dichotomy? In other words, if we form false beliefs about reality then, sooner or later, we will run smack into it so natural selection will favor the formation of true beliefs?

I was more than a little surprised at Sev’s response, because since Darwin himself, the standard Darwinian line has been exactly the opposite of that which he asserted.  Natural selection selects for fitness, not for truth.  In an 1881 letter to William Graham Darwin wrote:

But then with me the horrid doubt always arises whether the convictions of man’s mind, which has been developed from the mind of the lower animals, are of any value or at all trustworthy. Would any one trust in the convictions of a monkey’s mind, if there are any convictions in such a mind?

To be sure, the doubt Darwin was expressing was not in his own theory; it was in a creator.  It never seemed to occur to him that he was sawing off the branch on which his own theory was sitting.  Nevertheless, he understood the epistemological conundrum his theory creates (if only selectively).

Nothing has changed in 133 years.  As Wells outlines in Zombie Science, Darwinsists Ajit Varki and Danny Brower absolutely insist that natural selection sometimes favors false thinking.  They say that the modern human mind evolved when early humans overcame their awareness of mortality by acquiring “a massive capacity for denial.” Varki and Brower argue that all non-humans are aware of their own mortality and thus are inhibited from embarking on enterprises—such as scientific discoveries and technological innovations—that transcend the life of a single individual. By evolving a capacity for denying mortality, subhuman creatures became humans and modern culture emerged. But “reality denial” quickly extended to other aspects of reality and produced religion.

Examples of Darwinists asserting that truth is not necessarily adaptive can be multiplied.

Steven Pinker: “our brains were shaped for fitness, not for truth. Sometimes truth is adaptive, but sometimes it is not.”

Eric Baum: “Sometimes you are more likely to survive and propagate if you believe a falsehood than if you believe the truth.”

Donald Hoffman:  “Evolution has shaped us with perceptions that allow us to survive.  They guide adaptive behaviours. But part of that involves hiding from us the stuff we don’t need to know.And that’s pretty much all of reality, whatever reality might be. If you had to spend all that time figuring it out, the tiger would eat you.  According to evolution by natural selection, an organism that sees reality as it is will never be more fit than an organism of equal complexity that sees none of reality but is just tuned to fitness.  Never.”

At this point Goodusername jumps in with this:

Darwinism likely means our brains were shaped for fitness, not for truth, but it’s not as if there’s no link between survival and having a brain that is capable of learning about its environment.

Of course.  Notice how both Pinker and Baum try to have it both ways.  Sometimes truth is adaptive; sometimes it is not.  Sometimes you are more likely to survive if you believe a falsehood.  This implies that at other times you are more likely to survive if you believe the truth.

So dear Goodusername, we can sum the Darwinian narrative up as follows:  believing the truth is adaptive.  Except when it is not.  Then believing a falsehood is adaptive.

That is the beauty of Darwinism.  It explains absolutely everything – and its polar opposite – with equal alacrity.  You believed the truth and survived.  Then truth was adaptive.  You believed a falsehood and survived.  Then the falsehood was adaptive.  You committed rape? Well rape was adaptive in the distant past, and you are just acting according to your hard wiring.  You acted with selfless devotion and sacrifice toward a woman?  Well, altruism was adaptive in the distant past, and you are just acting according to your hard wiring.

Of course, a skeptic might object that a theory that explains everything and its opposite equally well explains nothing.  But if one were of a skeptical bent one wouldn’t be a Darwinist in the first place, so this objection rarely bothers Darwinian true believers.

Comments
Knowledge is independent of a knowing subject. It plays a causal role in being retained in a storage medium As such, someone’s brain can contain a truth even if they are not aware of the problem it solves, or why it solves it. IOW, your whole argument hinges on a very specific idea about truth. Specificity, the true belief theory of knowledge. You do realize this, don’t you? It seems you’re either ignorant of the philosophical assumptions your argument entails, or your deliberately omitted them because your preaching to the choir. Either way, it’s a parochial argument, in that it is limited in scope.critical rationalist
September 20, 2017
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Starbuck, Are you bucking (pun intended) all the experts too? It is truly astounding that a bunch of internet trolls believe they understand the theory better than the experts. Guys, get a grip. What I have been saying is not the least bit controversial. OK, let's do it this way. Can one of you cite a paper than says truth is always adaptive and error is never adaptive? I'll wait.Barry Arrington
September 20, 2017
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Goodusername tells us that behavior and beliefs are not heritable. It seems that he wants evolution to bypass Plantinga's EAAN and directly produce a responsible free rational mind. An intelligent mind that is free to choose his/her beliefs and behaviors. The problem for Goodusername is that, under naturalism, a responsible free rational mind is not available as an explanation. Given naturalism, free minds are excluded; only mechanistic explanations for behavior and beliefs are allowed. All naturalism has to offer Goodusername is random behavior, random beliefs and natural selection.Origenes
September 20, 2017
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The early human who looked for insect swarms, followed animal tracks , followed birds, and silently listened for running water was able to quench his thirst. The early human who prayed to snake gods for water, died.Starbuck
September 20, 2017
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Goodusername @25
1) No – Natural selection doesn’t filter behavior, or select behavior – it’s filtering and selecting based on behavior. Also, beliefs aren’t selected, but beliefs influence behavior.
I take it that you mean to say that behavior and beliefs are not hereditary. According to you there is no evolutionary explanation for these things.
2) No – The brain particles aren’t hereditary: The particles that form the brain are hereditary.
Whatever… I will rephrase my question: I suppose that there is a material mechanistic relation between ”the particles that form the brain” and adjacent beliefs and behavior. If you are correct and these particles are heritable, then so are the beliefs and behavior that are mechanistically connected to them. Agree?Origenes
September 20, 2017
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Pindi, do you also disagree with prominent Darwinist Eric Baum when he says “Sometimes you are more likely to survive and propagate if you believe a falsehood than if you believe the truth.” Sev and GUN do.
Pindi, And, if you do agree with Baum, that obviously means that you believe that Oog will live to grow up, find a mate, raise children, etc cause, you know, he survived that tiger encounter that one time. obviously. ;-)goodusername
September 20, 2017
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Pindi, do you also disagree with prominent Darwinist Eric Baum when he says “Sometimes you are more likely to survive and propagate if you believe a falsehood than if you believe the truth.” Sev and GUN do.Barry Arrington
September 20, 2017
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Origenes, 1)No - Natural selection doesn't filter behavior, or select behavior - it's filtering and selecting based on behavior. Also, beliefs aren't selected, but beliefs influence behavior. 2)No - The brain particles aren't hereditary: The particles that form the brain are hereditary. Beliefs and knowledge are not (for the most part). There's a reason parents have to teach their children stuff that they learned every generation, and go to school. What you're describing would be like getting a scar on your cheek and expecting your children to be born with the scar. To think my children would be born biologically inheriting all my beliefs would be Lamarckism on steroids (and PCP, and crack).goodusername
September 20, 2017
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Goodusername @20 Two questions wrt your statement, which I quoted in #23. (1) Natural selection filters behavior, not beliefs. If behavior is selected, then (indirectly) beliefs and the brain particles that produce them are being selected. Agree? (2) I suppose that there is a material mechanistic relation between the brain particles you referred to and adjacent beliefs and behavior. If you are correct and these brain particles are heritable, then so are the beliefs and behavior that are connected to them. Agree?Origenes
September 20, 2017
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Goodusername: But since neither beliefs nor behavior is heritable, what’s actually being selected are the particles of information used to form the brain which plays a part in our beliefs and actions.
I do not understand. Elaborate please.Origenes
September 20, 2017
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I can understand why you want to move along Barry. You have made yourself look silly.Pindi
September 19, 2017
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OK GUN, you can go on with your delusion that you understand the theory better than several prominent Darwinian theorists. I have done my best to educate you. You have proven impervious to my attempts. Yes, it is better that we both move along.Barry Arrington
September 19, 2017
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Barry,
It seems to me that you did not understand the Oog example. Here it is again:
You mean that example that I said, several times, that I didn't understand?
Oog survived in the example. And because he survived he has every chance of successfully breeding.
?? You and I both know that that's utterly impossible, so why on earth would you claim such a thing? What part of the explanation for why someone with a brain as deranged as Oog's wouldn't survive long after the tiger encounter (an explanation that I only gave to play along, only in the hope that the actual point of the example would be forthcoming, as I was sure it wasn't actually necessary) don't you find convincing? Do you also think someone with severe dementia would long survive and successfully rear offspring? Did we also need to point out that humans don't have the life span and reproductive cycle of a fruit fly? As I don't believe for a second that you believe Oog successfully breeds, I guess I'll just be left to wonder what your point was. Indeed, beliefs are invisible to natural selection, and are not passed on biologically to the next generation. Behavior is also not biologically inherited (except perhaps for some basic instincts). Selection, however, is based on behavior. But since neither beliefs nor behavior is heritable, what's actually being selected are the particles of information used to form the brain which plays a part in our beliefs and actions. If Oog does - miracles of all miracles - manage to breed, God help his offspring (assuming that Oog's issue isn't environmental, such as severe brain trauma).goodusername
September 19, 2017
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GUN, It seems to me that you did not understand the Oog example. Here it is again:
Example: Oog the caveman thinks Saber Toothed tigers are fun to play with. But he also thinks the best way to play with tigers is to run and hide. Both ideas are contrary to reality. But in combination they result in his survival. Oog is fit under Darwinism’s definition of fit.
Oog survived in the example. And because he survived he has every chance of successfully breeding. The point, again, is an organism's beliefs are invisible to natural selection. Only its behavior counts. Oog believes two errors: (1) it is fun to play with tigers; (2) hide and go seek is the best game to play with tigers. The combination of his errors caused him to hide, which in turn caused him to survive and pass on his genes. The two false beliefs were invisible to natural selection. The behavior, (i.e., hiding) was not. The behavior was adaptive. The false beliefs led to adaptive behavior. Barry Arrington
September 19, 2017
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Barry,
I will ask you the same questions I asked Sev:
It would help to understand what you're saying if you would answer some of our questions.
Do you seriously believe you understand the Darwinian theory better than Darwin, Varki, Brower, Pinker, Baum and Hoffman?
I doubt that. Have I said anything that you think they’d disagree with?
When I say “sometimes truth is not adaptive,” I am not spouting an ID talking point.
Yes, obviously. But are you agreeing with that statement, or arguing against it?
It is truly astounding that you believe you understand the implications of the theory better than they do.
Following up your previous sentences with this one seems to imply that you believe that Darwinism has implications on the relationship between fitness and truth. I'm not sure if that's what you meant to imply. That is not what Pinker, et al, are saying, rather, they are talking about the evolutionary implications of the truth not always being conducive to survival (or even harmful). In other words, they are saying that the relationship between fitness and truth has implications on our evolution - not that our evolution has implications on the relationship between fitness and truth (which wouldn’t make any sense). I haven’t been talking about any implications of Darwinism (at least in this thread). I’ve merely been talking about the relationship between fitness (survival) and truth, which can be an interesting discussion. Now, depending on what the relationship between fitness and truth is, there are obviously evolutionary implications on the brain, which can also be an interesting discussion. Do you realize that they are two separate subjects? I have no idea why Darwinists and ID proponents would disagree on the relationship between fitness and truth, but it hardly makes sense to me to start talking about the implications of that relationship when I can’t even tell if we agree on what that relationship is. Perhaps you misread my post at #11 to mean that I was saying that I don’t see any difference in the implications of the relationship between fitness and truth between Darwinists and ID proponents? “Obviously” there are different implications. But that isn’t what I was talking about. What I said was: “The relationship between “truth” and “survival” (or “fitness”) can be an interesting one, with many varying opinions, but I have no idea why anyone would bring “Darwinism” into it. What relevance does it serve here?” For instance, do Darwinists have a different position on whether Oog can survive than ID proponents? If so, why? It’s not at all “obvious” to me why Darwinists would have a different position than anyone else on the subject.
BTW, I suggest you start with Varki and Brower because I lay it out very plainly in the OP. Do you understand why they say in that particular instance error was adaptive?
I believe I understand Varki and Brower’s arguments, although from the discussions and reviews I’ve seen on their book, not many find it convincing, to say the least (including me). But I am inclined to believe Pinker (from what I can remember). What do you think any of them would say if asked if Oog has a chance of successfully breeding? From what I’ve seen I would bet quite a bit that they’d all answer “NO” (at least, after they’re done laughing).goodusername
September 19, 2017
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GUN, I will ask you the same questions I asked Sev: Do you seriously believe you understand the Darwinian theory better than Darwin, Varki, Brower, Pinker, Baum and Hoffman? When I say “sometimes truth is not adaptive,” I am not spouting an ID talking point. That comes from several prominent Darwinians (including Darwin). It is truly astounding that you believe you understand the implications of the theory better than they do. GUN, you seriously have not demonstrated that you understand the first thing about why they would say that. I suggest you go back and think harder, and when (maybe I should say “if”) you come to understand why they are saying that, then come back and we will talk. BTW, I suggest you start with Varki and Brower because I lay it out very plainly in the OP. Do you understand why they say in that particular instance error was adaptive?Barry Arrington
September 19, 2017
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Seversky,
You can point out that there are many false narratives or beliefs that incidentally that don’t hinder or even aid survival and I will agree.
Is that what he’s trying to do? That’s one of the things I can’t figure out. At times he seems to be trying to convince us that there may be times that false beliefs can lead to survival (as in the “Oog” example), but at other times he seems to be mocking those Darwinists who believe that: “Darwinism says there is a link between fitness and truth. Except when there is not.” The point of the Oog example also eludes me. Both of us have attempted to point out that Oog doesn’t have long to live (to say the least: he’s unlikely to survive the day, let alone live to find a mate, let alone breed, let alone raise offspring, etc). But... does that really need pointing out? Surely Barry already realizes that. And surely Barry doesn’t actually think that Darwinists believe that Oog will be a successful breeder. But if we can all agree that Oog’s days are numbered, then what’s the point of the example?goodusername
September 18, 2017
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Sev.
But you are missing the point
No, it is you who are missing the point. You still do appear to understand that natural selection does not care what you believe. It cares only how you behave. Do you seriously believe you understand the Darwinian theory better than Darwin, Varki, Brower, Pinker, Baum and Hoffman? When I say "sometimes truth is not adaptive," I am not spouting an ID talking point. That comes from several prominent Darwinians (including Darwin). It is truly astounding that you believe you understand the implications of the theory better than they do. Sev, you seriously have not demonstrated that you understand the first thing about why they would say that. I suggest you go back and think harder, and when (maybe I should say "if") you come to understand why they are saying that, then come back and we will talk. BTW, I suggest you start with Varki and Brower because I lay it out very plainly in the OP. Do you understand why they say in that particular instance error was adaptive?Barry Arrington
September 18, 2017
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By "truth", in these discussions, I mean the correspondence theory which broadly holds that there is an objective reality out there and our descriptions/explanations/narratives/theories are true to the extent that they are observed to correspond to what they purport to describe of that reality. Suppose that Moog notices that prey animals are more likely to be killed by the tiger near the watering-hole at a certain time of day. Suppose he explains this as the tiger lying in wait by the watering-hole at the time of day when the prey animals tend to congregate to drink. On the basis of this insight Moog decides to drink there at a different time of day, perhaps when the day is hottest and most animals are lying up in the shade. Oog, on the other hand, also notices that the tiger is around when the other animals go to drink but, operating on the assumption that the tiger is there for a game of hide-and-seek, he also goes there at that time of day. Who is more likely to survive over time? You can point out that there are many false narratives or beliefs that incidentally that don't hinder or even aid survival and I will agree. But you are missing the point. You are missing out the dimension of time. It's just like pointing out that many more genetic mutations are detrimental rather than beneficial. That's not in dispute. But again, over an extended period of time, which are more likely to be filtered out by natural selection and which are going to be left? In a complex environment which offers useful resources but also contains many dangers, the better your understanding of those benefits and dangers, the more accurate your accounts of where to find the resources and how to avoid the dangers, the better are your chances of survival. Over time, truth-tracking and fitness-tracking will align.Seversky
September 18, 2017
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It does not appear to me that you are asking your questions in good faith, because the answers are so obvious. Please allow me to give you some advice: The ability to keep on typing and string words together is NOT the same as the ability to say something coherent, useful or interesting. There is a line. You’ve crossed it.
k If anyone else would like to explain it, feel free.goodusername
September 18, 2017
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GUN @ 11: It does not appear to me that you are asking your questions in good faith, because the answers are so obvious. Please allow me to give you some advice: The ability to keep on typing and string words together is NOT the same as the ability to say something coherent, useful or interesting. There is a line. You've crossed it.Barry Arrington
September 18, 2017
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Barry,
Examples of Darwinists asserting that truth is not necessarily adaptive can be multiplied.
But… do their claims have anything to do with them being Darwinists? If not, then specifying “Darwinist” is being oddly specific. The relationship between “truth” and “survival” (or “fitness”) can be an interesting one, with many varying opinions, but I have no idea why anyone would bring “Darwinism” into it. What relevance does it serve here? When you say “Darwinism says there is a link between fitness and truth. Except when there is not”, the phrasing seems obviously meant to mock Darwinists, but that implies that Darwinists somehow believe differently about the matter, but how? Would it be any less accurate to say “ID proponents say there is a link between fitness and truth. Except when there is not”?goodusername
September 18, 2017
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daveS @ 5: "...white men were privileged to make many of those discoveries up to this point." Ah, yes, the "privileged" white man. That explains everything.Truth Will Set You Free
September 18, 2017
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Excellent post. Thank you. Belfast @ 7: John 14:6Truth Will Set You Free
September 18, 2017
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Belfast @7: Pontius Pilate asked exactly the same question, not realizing that the answer was right before him, simply because he didn't want to know the answer to such a fundamental question. Do you really want to know the answer to the question? Truth is the ultimate reality, clearly defined in the first few verses of the first chapter of the fourth book of the NT.Dionisio
September 18, 2017
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Wonderland, wonderful. Now, What is truth?Belfast
September 17, 2017
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Dreiundzwanzig That's how many pairs of chromosomes are in the nucleus of most human cells. That's also the number of times the word 'truth' appears just in the 4th book of the NT. It also appears 70 times in the rest of the NT and 46 times in the OT. Here are some NT appearances of the word 'truth':
And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen His glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. John 1:14 [...] grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. John 1:17 But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father is seeking such people to worship Him. God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth. John 4:23-24n You sent to John, and he has borne witness to the truth. John 5:33 So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed him, “If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples, and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”. John 8:31-32 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. [...] John 14:6 even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. [..] John 14:17 “But when the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness about me. John 15:26 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, [...] John 16:13 For I have given them the words that You gave me, and they have received them and have come to know in truth that I came from You; and they have believed that You sent me. John 17:8 Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth. John 17:17 And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be sanctified in truth. John 17:19 Then Pilate said to him, “So you are a king?” Jesus answered, “You say that I am a king. For this purpose I was born and for this purpose I have come into the world—to bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth listens to my voice.” Pilate said to him, “What is truth?” After he had said this, he went back outside to the Jews and told them, “I find no guilt in him. John 18:37-38 He who saw it has borne witness—his testimony is true, and he knows that he is telling the truth—that you also may believe. John 19:35
Dionisio
September 17, 2017
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groovamos,
So if mathematics is to benefit the survival of the human race, you could argue that the truth of mathematics evolved to advantage the survival of lightly colored people, and especially men. So a possible employment of Darwinism is promoting the ‘survival of the fittest’ in racial terms.
Well, I don't think the truth of mathematics "evolved"---rather, it was/is all there to be discovered, and white men were privileged to make many of those discoveries up to this point.
So lets consider that the proposition is false, and one way to do that from a Darwinian point of view is to say that mathematics benefits the whole of the human race, due to the efforts of a tiny minority of individuals. Then there should be broad appreciation on the political left for this tiny minority of people, for any survival advantage to the race due to the efforts of this minority with noticeable racial similarity. But this is not the case obviously.
Yikes---no comment on this.
In fact the opposite could be true. The rise of mathematics which made possible modern science, engineering, the university model, and the modern industrial economy, has created a culture where lightly colored men and Asian men dominate the mathematically exhaustive fields of study. In fact there is a race of people in which many say that to excel in math and science is “acting white”, yet the success of the dominant culture is scornfully labeled “white privilege” and the successful people are exposed to increasing hostility, and depending on how the culture progresses, possible exposure to danger. In this way a Darwinian view of truth in mathematics could be used to prove a threat to survival.
It is true that from time to time, being at "elite" or an "intellectual" can be a liability (e.g., the Cultural Revolution) of course. Things are complicated.daveS
September 17, 2017
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daveS: That’s a very broad question, but would you not agree that our understanding of mathematics enables us to control our environment and defend ourselves against agressors to a degree that is unique among life forms on Earth? I can turn that question into a politically dangerous proposition that is most likely false. I have a marvelous book, The Concise Dictionary of Mathematics, in the back of which are 59 photographs, portraits, and photos of busts, of the most famous mathematicians of history. These people are all European, American, Jewish, and Slavic. In the crude vernacular of our current political milieu, they are all 'white', so-called. Even worse, 57 of them are men. So if mathematics is to benefit the survival of the human race, you could argue that the truth of mathematics evolved to advantage the survival of lightly colored people, and especially men. So a possible employment of Darwinism is promoting the 'survival of the fittest' in racial terms. So lets consider that the proposition is false, and one way to do that from a Darwinian point of view is to say that mathematics benefits the whole of the human race, due to the efforts of a tiny minority of individuals. Then there should be broad appreciation on the political left for this tiny minority of people, for any survival advantage to the race due to the efforts of this minority with noticeable racial similarity. But this is not the case obviously. In fact the opposite could be true. The rise of mathematics which made possible modern science, engineering, the university model, and the modern industrial economy, has created a culture where lightly colored men and Asian men dominate the mathematically exhaustive fields of study. In fact there is a race of people in which many say that to excel in math and science is "acting white", yet the success of the dominant culture is scornfully labeled "white privilege" and the successful people are exposed to increasing hostility, and depending on how the culture progresses, possible exposure to danger. In this way a Darwinian view of truth in mathematics could be used to prove a threat to survival. So there you have it - Darwinism employed to prove the survival advantage of mathematical truth, and at the same time the threat to survival of those persons with the knowledge.groovamos
September 17, 2017
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groovamos,
So where in the history of homo sapiens did the selective advantage of the truth as manifested in mathematics come into play?
That's a very broad question, but would you not agree that our understanding of mathematics enables us to control our environment and defend ourselves against agressors to a degree that is unique among life forms on Earth? Chimpanzees don't have anything like our modern medicine, technology, or weapons, and may be on the path to extinction. Humans are more or less in control of their own destiny, on the other hand.daveS
September 17, 2017
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