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Bad math: Why Larry Moran’s “I’m not a Darwinian” isn’t a valid reply to Meyer’s argument

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Professor Larry Moran has written a response to my post, A succinct case for Intelligent Design. Unfortunately, Professor Moran gets his facts wrong from the get-go. He writes:

It seems to me that the [Intelligent Design creationist] movement concentrates on criticizing evolution (and materialism) and doesn’t really present much of a case for believing that the history of life was directed by gods.

Now, it’s no skin off my nose if Professor Moran wants to call us creationists. Frankly, I couldn’t care less. But the Intelligent Design movement has never claimed to have scientific evidence that the history of life was “directed by gods.” What we claim is that certain highly specific, functional systems which are found in living things were designed by some intelligent agent or agents. By “intelligent,” I don’t mean “humanlike”; rather, what I mean is: capable of engaging in abstract reasoning, when selecting suitable means to achieve one’s goals. In the most clear-cut Intelligent Design cases, the agent has to engage in mathematical reasoning – whether it be about squares (in the case of the monolith on the Moon in the movie 2001, whose sides are in the ration 1:4:9) or about digital code (in the case of the DNA we find in living things), or about which complex geometrical arrangements of amino acid chains will prove to be capable of performing a biologically useful task (in the case of protein design).

When I speak of the agent’s “goals,” I don’t mean the agent’s personal motives for doing something, which we have no way of inferring from the products they design; rather, I simply mean the task that the agent was attempting to perform, or the problem that they were trying to solve. Beyond that, there is nothing more that we could possibly infer about the agent, unless we were acquainted with them or with other members of their species. For instance, we cannot infer that the designer of an artifact was a sentient being (since the ability to design doesn’t imply the ability to feel) , or a material being (whatever that vague term means), or a physical entity (since there’s no reason why a designer needs to exhibit law-governed behavior), or even a complex or composite entity. To be sure, all the agents that we are familiar with possess these characteristics, but we cannot infer them from the products designed by an agent. Finally, the fact that an agent is capable of performing a variety of functions does not necessarily imply that the agent is composed of multiple detachable parts. We simply don’t know that. In short: the scientific inferences we can make about non-human designers are extremely modest.

Moran’s verdict: “No case for Intelligent Design”

After quoting the 123-word passage from Meyer’s book which I highlighted in my original post, summarizing the four fundamental problems with unguided evolution, Professor Moran accuses Dr. Meyer of claiming that Intelligent Design must be true because Darwinism is false:

This passage merely affirms what we all know to be true; namely that there is no case for Intelligent Design Creationism. It’s just a bunch of whining about the inadequacies of the IDiot version of evolution. That version assumes that all of evolution is due to natural selection acting on random mutations and this gives rise to the appearance of design.

I don’t believe in that version of evolution and I don’t think that most species look as though they were designed. Does that mean that I’m an Intelligent Design Creationist? Of course not. Meyers (and Torley) have fallen for the trap of the false dichotomy.

Even if all four of Stephen Meyer’s critiques were correct, he still isn’t offering an alternative explanation and he still isn’t showing us evidence for an intelligent designer—or any other kind of designer.

As anyone who has read Darwin’s Doubt knows, this is a complete travesty of Meyer’s argument. Professor Moran is displaying his ignorance here.

The evidence for an intelligent designer, in a nutshell

Dr. Meyer’s case for an intelligent designer is spelt out with admirable lucidity in an Evolution News and Views post titled, Does Darwin’s Doubt Commit the God-of-the-Gaps Fallacy? (October 16, 2013). The argument proceeds as follows:

Premise One: Despite a thorough search and evaluation, no materialistic causes or evolutionary mechanisms have demonstrated the power to produce large amounts of specified or functional information (or integrated circuitry).

Premise Two: Intelligent causes have demonstrated the power to produce large amounts of specified/functional information (and integrated circuitry).

Conclusion: Intelligent design constitutes the best, most causally adequate, explanation for the specified/functional information (and circuitry) that was necessary to produce the Cambrian animals…

In fact, the argument for intelligent design developed in Darwin’s Doubt constitutes an “inference to the best explanation” based upon our best available knowledge….[A]n inference to the best explanation …asserts the superior explanatory power of a proposed cause based upon its established — its known — causal adequacy, and based upon a lack of demonstrated efficacy, despite a thorough search, of any other adequate cause. The inference to design, therefore, depends on present knowledgee of the causal powers of various materialistic entities and processes (inadequate) and intelligent agents (adequate).

Meyer’s argument can also be found in chapters 17 and 18 of his book, Darwin’s Doubt. Sadly, Professor Moran evinces no sign of having read those chapters. One wonders whether he merely skimmed Dr. Meyer’s book.

Why the neutral theory of evolution won’t remedy the deficiencies of neo-Darwinism

But let us return to Professor Moran’s remarks about natural selection. In his introduction to The Origin of Species, Charles Darwin wrote: “I am convinced that Natural Selection has been the main but not the exclusive means of modification.” In a similar vein, Richard Dawkins famously declared: “Evolution by natural selection is the only workable theory ever proposed that is capable of explaining life, and it does so brilliantly.”

Professor Moran does not share these views. He rejects the view that “evolution is due to natural selection acting on random mutations and this gives rise to the appearance of design,” forthrightly asserting: “I don’t believe in that version of evolution.” He maintains that “a huge number of mutations are neutral and there are far more neutral mutations fixed by random genetic drift that there are beneficial mutations fixed by natural selection.” This, he declares, is what modern-day evolutionists believe. In an earlier post, he complains that “you have to read very carefully to find any mention of modern evolutionary theory in Meyer’s book – he prefers to focus his attack on mutation + natural selection.”

What Professor Moran does not tell us here is that Dr. Stephen Meyer wrote a detailed and extensive critique of the neutral theory of evolution in his book, Darwin’s Doubt. In his critique, Dr. Meyer focuses on the ground-breaking work of Dr. Michael Lynch, a geneticist who espouses the neutral theory of evolution. Meyer argues that this theory is incapable of accounting for the origin of new animal body plans, because it is built on faulty mathematical assumptions (bolding mine – VJT):

Michael Lynch, a geneticist at Indiana University, … proposes a neutral or “non-adaptive” theory of evolution in which natural selection plays a largely insignificant role…

Lynch argues that in small populations, animal genomes will inevitably grow over time as nonprotein-coding sections of DNA (as well as gene duplicates) accumulate due to the weakness of natural selection. He thinks that these neutral mutations drive the evolution of animals.

… [F]or Lynch’s theory to explain the origin of new and functional genes and proteins (and the anatomical complexities that depend on them), his theory would have to solve the problem of combinatorial inflation… He would have to show that random mutations could efficiently search the relevant combinatorial space of possible sequences corresponding to a given novel functional gene or protein.

Nevertheless, Lynch does not even address the problem of combinatorial inflation or the closely related problem of the rarity of genes and proteins in sequence space…

Lynch does argue in one paper that neutral evolutionary processes can generate new complex adaptations – adaptations requiring multiple coordinated mutations – within realistic waiting times. In particular, writing in a recent paper with colleague Adam Abegg of St. Louis University, he argues that “conventional population genetic mechanisms” such as random mutation and genetic drift can cause the “relatively rapid emergence of specific complex adaptations.” …

But some things are just too good to be true, and it turns out that Lynch and Abegg made a subtle but fundamental mathematical error in coming to their conclusion. Appropriately, perhaps, the first person to demonstrate that Lynch’s incredible claim was problematic was Douglas Axe… In the end, he traced Lynch and Abegg’s claims to two erroneous equations, both of which were based on erroneous assumptions. In essence, Lynch and Abegg assumed that organisms will acquire a given complex adaptation by traversing a direct path to the new anatomical structure. Each mutation would build on the previous one in the most efficient manner possible – with no setbacks, false starts, aimless wandering, or genetic degradation – until the desired structure or system (or gene) is constructed. Thus, they formulated an undirected model of evolutionary change, and one that assumes, moreover, that there is no mechanism available (such as natural selection) that can lock in potentially favorable mutational changes on the way to some complex advantageous structure….

Yet nothing in Lynch’s neutral model ensures that potentially advantageous mutations will remain in place while other mutations accrue. As Axe explains, “Productive changes cannot be ‘banked,’ whereas Equation 2 [one of Lynch’s equations] presupposes that they can.” Instead, Axe shows, mathematically, that degradation (the fixation of mutational changes that make the complex adaptation less likely to arise) will occur much more rapidly than constructive mutations, causing the expected waiting time to increase exponentially.
(2013, pp. 321, 322, 326, 327-328)

Quoting Marshall – but missing the big picture

In another post, Professor Moran quotes with relish from a critical review of Dr. Meyer’s book by the eminent UC paleontologist, Professor Charles Marshall:

…when it comes to explaining the Cambrian explosion, Darwin’s Doubt is compromised by Meyer’s lack of scientific knowledge, his “god of the gaps” approach, and selective scholarship that appears driven by his deep belief in an explicit role of an intelligent designer in the history of life.

However, Dr. Meyer has responded at length to Professor Marshall’s criticisms, in a four-part series. Meyer’s most telling points can be found in his second post, which is titled, To Build New Animals, No New Genetic Information Needed? More in Reply in Charles Marshall. I’ll quote a few brief excerpts (bolding mine – VJT):

…Marshall simply assumes that most of the genetic information necessary to build the Cambrian animals already existed before the Cambrian explosion. In fact, he seems to presuppose the existence of what Susumu Ohno called a “pananimalian genome,”16 a nearly complete set of the genes necessary to build Cambrian animals within some phenotypically simpler, ur-metazoan ancestor. Thus, he states the new animal phyla “emerged through the rewiring of the gene regulatory networks (GRNs) of already existing genes.”17 …

Nevertheless, this question-begging assumption does not solve the central problem posed by Darwin’s Doubt — that of the origin of the genetic (and epigenetic) information necessary to produce the Cambrian animals. It merely pushes the problem back several tens or hundreds of millions of years, assuming that such a universal genetic toolkit ever existed.

Readers of the book will recall my discussion, in Chapters 9 and 10, of recent mutagenesis experiments. These experiments have established the extreme rarity of functional genes and proteins among the many (combinatorially) possible ways of arranging nucleotide bases or amino acids within their corresponding “sequence spaces.” … This extreme rarity also helps to explain why mathematical biologists, using standard population genetics models, are calculating exceedingly long waiting times (well in excess of available evolutionary time) for the production of new genes and proteins when producing such genes or proteins requires even a few coordinated mutations.20

For these reasons, defining the Cambrian explosion as a 25 million year event, as Marshall does, instead of a 10 million year event, as many other Cambrian experts do (and as I do in Darwin’s Doubt), makes no appreciable difference in solving the problem of the origin of genetic information — such is the extreme rarity of functional bio-macromolecules within their relevant sequence spaces. Nor, for that matter, does positing the origin of a complete set of genes (that is, many more than just one) for building all the Cambrian animals 100 million years before the Cambrian explosion. That merely pushes the problem back…In any case, the experimentally based calculations in Darwin’s Doubt show that neither ten million, nor several hundred million years would afford enough opportunities to produce the genetic information necessary to build even a single novel gene or protein, let alone all the new genes and proteins needed to produce new animal forms.

Nobody would question Professor Marshall’s expertise in paleontology, but the argument in Dr. Stephen Meyer’s book, Darwin’s Doubt, is ultimately a mathematical one. Until evolutionists demonstrate that they can grapple with the mathematics in Meyer’s argument, their criticisms of his book will continue to miss the mark.

Reading the critical reviews of Meyer’s book reinforced my conviction that many contemporary biologists fail to grasp that the scientific case for unguided evolution is built on a foundation of faulty math. As a philosopher of science, Dr. Meyer is to be congratulated for having the courage to publicly declare that the emperor has no clothes.

Finally, here’s what Harvard geneticist George Church (who isby no means an Intelligent Design theorist) said about Darwin’s Doubt:

Stephen Meyer’s new book Darwin’s Doubt represents an opportunity for bridge-building, rather than dismissive polarization — bridges across cultural divides in great need of professional, respectful dialog — and bridges to span evolutionary gaps.

Readers can find many more comments on this Web page by highly qualified scientists praising Darwin’s Doubt. Professor Moran is welcome to call them all “idiots” if he likes. But somehow I don’t think he’ll do that. Or will he?

Comments
computerist:
If I design a program that evolves a circuit schematic (output) based on existing components, based on pre-defined selection criteria (input), that is design.
But the selection criteria for your Weasel program is not predefined as it didn't exist at the time you created your program. Your program accepts an input string that you the designer knew nothing about when you designed the program. Your design ended right at the point the program started running, it did not include the selection criteria. You could modify the program to ask the user to enter a new string at any time of the program run and it could be completely different from his initial one or even the original one. It could be of this format: AACT, followed by this one: ACTG. You have shown that the algorithm is independent of the data with your program. Your design has no say in what the winning string should be since at the time you created it, you had no knowledge of what that string would be.Carpathian
June 2, 2015
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Carpathian #630, It sounds like a strawman to me. Control is a pointer to design. Scientific evidence needs to be treated as such. Scientifically, we have a strong indication of design. Period. Religious or philosophical implications are a different matter. Even so, if science leads us to this type of conclusion, why not accept it? What stops us from taking this final logical step? A priori intellectual commitments? But if they contradict evidence, they are not worth maintaining.EugeneS
June 2, 2015
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Variation, Carpathian, not initial function. If I design a program that evolves a circuit schematic (output) based on existing components, based on pre-defined selection criteria (input), that is design. You have yet to explain the initial function and components of the program and if the selection criteria is apt. You assume that blind undirected processes provide the selection criteria in all cases and that the same rule for variation applies for the integrated complexity of biological systems. I see variation (with a random component) as a design mechanism. I see hierarchical patterns (reusing existing function) as part of a design process. I'm seeing a teleology bias Carpathian.computerist
June 1, 2015
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computerist, As far as what a Weasel type program shows, it is how quickly a population, not an individual, can change when selection is applied. Weasel no more explains all aspects of evolution any more than "+" and "-" explain all aspects of math.Carpathian
June 1, 2015
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If I want to use a different “target” string with your program, do I need to change your code and re-compile?
Ofcourse not. I cannot speak on behalf of Mung, but it would seem that given his background with interpreted languages, which don't need to be compiled to machine language instructions, I don't see any reason why he would think that unless there is another reason for his concern.computerist
June 1, 2015
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computerist, Clearly you have not identified the horse. The "horse" in this case was Mung's contention that a Weasel type program would need to be re-compiled if the target string changes. He is wrong as can be seen from your code.
fprintf(stdout,"nEnter a target string:t");gets(TARGET_STRING); fprintf(stdout,"nEnter a mutation rate:t");fscanf(stdin,"%f", &rate); TARGET_LENGTH = strlen(&TARGET_STRING[0]);
If I want to use a different "target" string with your program, do I need to change your code and re-compile? So is Mung right or wrong?Carpathian
June 1, 2015
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I would just like to note here that Evolve claims that peptidyl tranferase of the ribosome is in fact an enzyme. This was acriticism another material evolutionist claimed Stephen Meyer got wrong in his book "Signature in the Cell". He used this point (spectacularly poor) to say Stephen Meyer makes basic mistakes, arguing that for something to be an enzyme it needs to be a protein. Oh, the ignorance. Nearly as ignorant as saying that because RNA is so important as a code-bearing structure and containing enzymatic activity it must have been the precursor to our current systems in organisms today. Anyway, how good is the RNA world hypothesis? Perhaps not so good: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25859609 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25739364 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22793875 PS - the lat one is my favourite. You know its a good'un when the article's title is "The RNA world hypothesis: the worst theory of the early evolution of life (except for all the others)(a)."Dr JDD
June 1, 2015
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computerist, The Weasel part is trivial and as you say would take as long to design as it would take to type it in. My program however, has 5 different marriage strategies and supports about ten command-line switches which allow you to set population sizes, automatic string generation, marriage types, number of trials, and char sets, etc. In DNA mode, targets are "found" very quickly. My text mode char set accepts about 90 chars and the "target" takes much longer to find. The data can be logged to a file of the users choice from the command-line along with silent, and undetailed item runs. The five days were not spent simply writing as I spent more time running trials to get data. Again, a Weasel implementation is trivial as you and hundreds of others have shown. The point was that Mung said a Weasel program must be re-compiled if you change the "target" string, which is not true.Carpathian
June 1, 2015
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What experienced programmer would think there was a problem coding something like that? Should I have sent Mung more trivial code to argue about?
I doubt Mung would see that as a problem from a programming POV. The problem is (as I see it) that you're a bit backwards. We have discussed this matter over and over again. And even Evos are hesitant to bring this matter up, because they know it doesn't prove squat. A former IDer Atom, developed the following for Dembski and Marks lab many years back: http://www.evoinfo.org http://www.evoinfo.org/weasel.html etc... You're beating a dead horse, IMHO.computerist
June 1, 2015
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Over a period of five days I actually had a Weasel functionality and then added marriage of strings to show how sexual reproduction affects the distribution of changes in the strings.
Okay, so it took you 5 days to develop a Weasel implementation that already exist in...
many variations in many languages.
Any programmer could write a Weasel exec that can accept a string as input.
About 5 years ago or so, Dawkins Weasel algorithm was under discussion on here (and multiple ID blogs) and died, you brought it up from its grave and now pretend as if it proves something we IDiots didn't previously know about. I wrote this Weasel implementation in about 1-2 hours 4-5 years ago, for some reason the code is mangled (probably as a result of blog formatting changes, a blog where I had saved the code)...whatever. #include #include #include #include #define ALPHABET "ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ " #define ALPHA_LENGTH 27 typedef enum { FALSE = 0, TRUE = 1 } boolean; void upString(char *); void mutate(char *, char *, int); void shuffle(char *); int randInt(int, int); int fitness(char *); boolean isLocked(char *); char TARGET_STRING[100]; int TARGET_LENGTH; int main(int argc, char **argv) { float rate = 0.0; FILE* file = (argv[1] == NULL) ? fopen("output.txt", "w") : fopen(argv[1], "w"); if(file == NULL) { return 1; } fprintf(stdout,"nEnter a target string:t");gets(TARGET_STRING); fprintf(stdout,"nEnter a mutation rate:t");fscanf(stdin,"%f", &rate); TARGET_LENGTH = strlen(&TARGET_STRING[0]); float mutation_rate = ceil((rate / 100) * TARGET_LENGTH);int m_rate = (int)mutation_rate; upString(&TARGET_STRING[0]); char *current_ptr; char current[TARGET_LENGTH]; current_ptr = &current[0]; strcpy(&current_ptr[0], &TARGET_STRING[0]); shuffle(&current_ptr[0]); char *buffer_ptr; char buffer[TARGET_LENGTH]; buffer_ptr = &buffer[0]; int gen_count = 0; char str_gc[100]; int i; while(!isLocked(buffer_ptr)) { if (system("cls")) system("clear"); mutate(current_ptr, buffer_ptr, m_rate); if(fitness(&buffer_ptr[0]) >= fitness(&current_ptr[0])) { strcpy(&current_ptr[0], &buffer_ptr[0]); } puts(current_ptr); fputs(current_ptr, file); fputs("n", file); gen_count++; } fprintf(stdout,"nNumber of trials to reach target: %d", gen_count); fputs("n", file); fputs("nNumber of trials to reach target: ", file); fputs(itoa(gen_count, str_gc, 10), file); fclose(file); return 0; } void upString(char *string) { int i; for(i=0;i string[i] = toupper(string[i]); } void mutate(char* cPtr, char* bPtr, int m_rate) { strcpy(&bPtr[0], &cPtr[0]); int i; for(i=0;i bPtr[randInt(0, (TARGET_LENGTH - 1))] = ALPHABET[randInt(0,(ALPHA_LENGTH - 1))]; } } void shuffle(char *string) { int j, k; for(j=0; j for(k=0; k int r = randInt(0, TARGET_LENGTH - 1); int temp = string[k]; string[k] = string[r]; string[r] = temp; } } } int fitness(char *cString) { int i;int count = 0; for(i=0;i if(*(cString + i) == TARGET_STRING[i]) { count++; } } return count; } int randInt(int min, int max) { static int kState = 0;int i; if(kState == 0) { srand(time(NULL)); kState = 1; } i = (rand() % (max - min + 1) + min); return i; } boolean isLocked(char *curPtr) { boolean state = FALSE; if(strcmp(&curPtr[0], &TARGET_STRING[0]) == 0) { state = TRUE; } return state; } Here was one of the outputs: Example output on string METHINKS DAWKINS IS A WEASEL T SEAASMENQKAIWLSW IIS HDNE T SEAASMENQKAIWLSW IS HDNE T SEAASMENQKJIWLSW IS HDNE K SEAASMENQKJIWLSW IS HDNE S SEAASMENQKJIWLSW IS HDNE S SEAASMENQKJIWLSW IIS HDNE S SEAASMENQKJIWLSW IISRHDNE G SEAASMENQKJIWLSW IISRHDNE ......... METHINKS DASKINS IS A WEASEL METHINKS DAJKINS IS A WEASEL METHINKS DAJKINS IS A WEASEL METHINKS DAJKINS IS A WEASEL METHINKS DAWKINS IS A WEASEL Number of trials to reach target: 3703 Dawkins Weasel doesn't prove anything, Carpathian, except that design is required to reach a target.computerist
June 1, 2015
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EugeneS:
Even if you have all the levers, dials and knobs, you need intelligence to decide which ones to pull or turn in order to produce the desired effect.
Absolutely right and that's the problem I have with ID. How do you determine that a given effect would be desired 10, 100, or a 1,000 years into the future? No intelligent designer less powerful than an entity that can see or dictate the future can use ID. An intelligent race of aliens would still be lacking the ability to see the future and thus are not candidates as intelligent designers of life. For ID, a designer is required that is above the restrictions of nature.Carpathian
June 1, 2015
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computerist:
You’re assuming that biology needs to have protocols defined....
No I don't but Upright BiPed does. His claim is that biology is semiotic and that a protocol is involved. When pressed, he claimed his actual use of the term was closer to the definition of "convention". Terms should not be re-defined as it requires people to carry multiple meanings for the same term, which defeats the purpose of actually using terms. As far as source code goes, I sense from your name that you are probably a programmer. There was no working code when Mung asked, just functions with names that described what they did. Mung had asked to see the source code from a function that returns the count of chars that match in two strings. What experienced programmer would think there was a problem coding something like that? Should I have sent Mung more trivial code to argue about? I became so frustrated I actually wrote the program. Over a period of five days I actually had a Weasel functionality and then added marriage of strings to show how sexual reproduction affects the distribution of changes in the strings. I offered Mung the running code, but he declined. He then asked again for source. For what? To see if something that actually does run might be able to? If you have done any sort of programming, you realize a Weasel type of program is trivial. You can Google many variations in many languages. The main claim Mung made before I started was that a Weasel type program needs to be changed and recompiled when the "target" string changes. I proved him wrong. Any programmer could write a Weasel exec that can accept a string as input.Carpathian
June 1, 2015
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Carpathian. You're assuming that biology needs to have protocols defined (or perhaps stored somewhere as C code) as clearly as humans have defined for networking and perhaps on RFC as well, and that these protocols must work in specific ways (TCP handshaking for data integrity etc...). And yet, when Mung asked you to provide the source code for the evo algoirithm, you offered only the executable. But when biology only offers the executable, you seem displeased. You won't accept analogies of biological protocols, such as error detection and correction protocols in the cell (proofreading DNA via DNA polymerase enzyme, etc...), that cannot be a protocol to you because it must happen in certain ways in certain contexts that humans have defined them in, when obviously we're looking at a different context for a different set of problems. Finally, you seem to be confused that biology is somehow exempt from design (from information to protocols etc...) because the medium (physical layer) used to propagate "information" is electrochemical and that there is no other layer that can be defined above this one. In that case, you should really think about how biology happens to work without all this design in place.computerist
June 1, 2015
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Carpathian and Evolve, For a physical effect to be used you guys need something that can decide whether and how it will be used by the system. Even if you have all the levers, dials and knobs, you need intelligence to decide which ones to pull or turn in order to produce the desired effect. Imagine you have a switch. In either position the same forces of nature act upon it. Nature does not care if it's on or off. It is that bit of "equipment" that you systematically avoid recognizing which absolutely must be present in all systems producing non-zero utility. Without it, the whole system falls apart into separate components. It is called 'control'. Its function is to bring the desired into the actual.EugeneS
June 1, 2015
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kairosfocus, Could you give Mung a primer on why the layers above the physical layers are not physical. Also, he doesn't understand how Morse code communications can be described as a layered protocol. I'd like to interact with him but it's impossible when he doesn't understand the basics.Carpathian
June 1, 2015
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Evolve:
At best they can only show that some analogies can be drawn between the two designs. ID is dead in the water as a science.
Agreed, and what's shocking is that when a technical scientific argument is made by them which is contested, the reply to the criticism is an analogy, metaphor, thought experiment or re-definition of a well accepted term. I'm waiting for kairosfocus to give a reply to an actual question I asked, but I can see that won't happen.Carpathian
June 1, 2015
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Mung:
Carpathian wants to see the immaterial components in the cell and if we cannot show them to him they do not exist. And Morse code doesn’t actually work for communication because it doesn’t have all seven layers of the OSI model.
kairosfocus doesn't agree with you. He has produced a nice diagram of what a protocol looks like when used in an information/technology framework. Again you display an understanding of information processing that someone very inexperienced would offer. Please ask kairosfocus to explain why the layers above the physical layer are not physical. I could offer you the exact explanation kairosfocus would give you but understand that you believe that the actual message is less important than the messenger. You have even missed the immaterial component in Morse code that you yourself explained. Good job.Carpathian
June 1, 2015
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Andre, Design is not repugnant to me. I will readily agree that there’s design in nature, but all evidence clearly indicates that nature produced its own design. What’s repugnant to me is Intelligent Design because there’s no case for it. In order for ID to have a case at least three requirements must be met. (1) Define the designer. First and foremost designer(s) must be shown to exist. Then his properties must be defined. Without this it is impossible to ascertain what he designed where, when and how. Most creationists consider the entire universe to be designed, but ID says only objects with FSCO/I are designed. So is a stone designed? Are mountains designed? (2) Rule out that nature can produce its own design. The design we find in nature is shaped by physics and chemistry because we can explain them or manipulate them with known natural principles. ID has not shown that nature cannot produce its own design. (3) Explain the evidence better than the competition. There’s a mountain of evidence for unguided evolution. Consider the example of the egg yolk (vitellogenin) gene. Chicken lay eggs and have egg yolk genes. Mammals don’t lay eggs, but they retain broken egg yolk genes! http://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.0060063 This is emphatic evidence that mammals and chickens once shared an egg-laying ancestor just as evolutionary theory predicts. How can ID explain this better? It cannot, it falls flat. I just saw Casey Luskin trying hard to downplay a new 3.4 million year old human ancestor fossil discovered in Ethiopia. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2015/05/newest_human_an096401.html He’s saying they recovered only scraps of bones and teeth. But Casey, those scraps still show the right transitional anatomy at the right time period in history exactly as evolution predicts! ID gropes in the dark to explain away the evidence. No matter how many essays KF and Vincent Torley write appealing to human designs and claiming nature looks similar, their case is very weak. At best they can only show that some analogies can be drawn between the two designs. ID is dead in the water as a science.Evolve
June 1, 2015
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Evolve "Functions are unintended consequences of molecular interactions." The car engine is just a collection of molecules, an unintended result of previous non-teleologic molecular interactions.EugeneS
June 1, 2015
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Ah yes, the Knights of Truth! I forgot about them. It's just a flesh wound sire!Mung
June 1, 2015
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I don't think Evolve is insane, I think the fact of design is making evolve insane! Looks like he just does not want it to be true, and if that is the case, why are these atheist hippies parading around as if they are the knights of truth?Andre
May 31, 2015
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Andre, you should never ask someone who is insane to explain why they are insane.Mung
May 31, 2015
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Evolve.....
Functions are unintended consequences of molecular interactions.
You can't be serious! LOL!!!!!!!! Whaahahahahahahahahahahahaha! Dude why is the fact that there is design, so repugnant to you? Why would you go out of your way to make such a dumb statement as above? What is it about design that makes you lose mind?Andre
May 31, 2015
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Protocols [codes] be immaterial [except at the physical layer], so you cannot demonstrate the existence of protocols [codes] above the physical layer [e.g., at the link layer]. Therefore materialism be true [except when it isn't].Mung
May 31, 2015
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M62, codes (thus, symbolic representation and encoding --> decoding and acting on the result) imply communication systems and protocols plus co-ordinated execution machinery, thus strongly pointing to design. KFkairosfocus
May 31, 2015
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Codes It's real Deal with itmike1962
May 31, 2015
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Mung, #598 and #612 Keep up the good fight, sir. :) I see that we are still waiting for someone, ANYONE to attempt to reconcile the contradictory (to a materialist) positions that actual codes arise through human, 'immaterial' processes. whereas genetic activity arises through 'natural', immaterial processes. Humans are just 'bags of chemicals' to a materialist, right? What, therefore, IS 'immateriality'?soundburger
May 31, 2015
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Ev, in short you cannot show an observed case of an RNA world organism. Also, you want to lash out at a description of the commonplace fact that for a lot of things to work . . . to function, the right parts joined up in the right ways with very limited room for tolerance, are necessary. And yes, beyond a certain threshold of complexity-specificity to achieve function, the only known way to get there is by design. That is why FSCO/I is a reliable sign of design. And, last I checked, design is an empirical reality and is inherently connected to purpose. That is, we have an empirical sign that is a reliable marker for intelligently directed configuration, aka design. The text of your comments provides us with a good case in point. KFkairosfocus
May 31, 2015
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In the 1950s and 1960s, however, the study of protein synthesis revealed that genes and proteins are not formed spontaneously in the cell but are manufactured by a system of molecular machines based on RNAs. - Marcello Barbieri, Code Biology: A New Science of Life
I ask Evolve, what is it in the creation of man-made artifacts that is not physical/chemical? And don't think we don't notice the shifting goalposts either. p.s. Evolve, are you a dualist? Just wondering.Mung
May 31, 2015
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Evolve A cascade of reactions is not enough. You need control. And this requirement is equivalent to requiring teleology because the function we are talking about is pragmatic utility, not just physicality. Chemistry is only a means. Chemistry is blind to pragmatic utility.EugeneS
May 31, 2015
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