Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Bad math: Why Larry Moran’s “I’m not a Darwinian” isn’t a valid reply to Meyer’s argument

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Professor Larry Moran has written a response to my post, A succinct case for Intelligent Design. Unfortunately, Professor Moran gets his facts wrong from the get-go. He writes:

It seems to me that the [Intelligent Design creationist] movement concentrates on criticizing evolution (and materialism) and doesn’t really present much of a case for believing that the history of life was directed by gods.

Now, it’s no skin off my nose if Professor Moran wants to call us creationists. Frankly, I couldn’t care less. But the Intelligent Design movement has never claimed to have scientific evidence that the history of life was “directed by gods.” What we claim is that certain highly specific, functional systems which are found in living things were designed by some intelligent agent or agents. By “intelligent,” I don’t mean “humanlike”; rather, what I mean is: capable of engaging in abstract reasoning, when selecting suitable means to achieve one’s goals. In the most clear-cut Intelligent Design cases, the agent has to engage in mathematical reasoning – whether it be about squares (in the case of the monolith on the Moon in the movie 2001, whose sides are in the ration 1:4:9) or about digital code (in the case of the DNA we find in living things), or about which complex geometrical arrangements of amino acid chains will prove to be capable of performing a biologically useful task (in the case of protein design).

When I speak of the agent’s “goals,” I don’t mean the agent’s personal motives for doing something, which we have no way of inferring from the products they design; rather, I simply mean the task that the agent was attempting to perform, or the problem that they were trying to solve. Beyond that, there is nothing more that we could possibly infer about the agent, unless we were acquainted with them or with other members of their species. For instance, we cannot infer that the designer of an artifact was a sentient being (since the ability to design doesn’t imply the ability to feel) , or a material being (whatever that vague term means), or a physical entity (since there’s no reason why a designer needs to exhibit law-governed behavior), or even a complex or composite entity. To be sure, all the agents that we are familiar with possess these characteristics, but we cannot infer them from the products designed by an agent. Finally, the fact that an agent is capable of performing a variety of functions does not necessarily imply that the agent is composed of multiple detachable parts. We simply don’t know that. In short: the scientific inferences we can make about non-human designers are extremely modest.

Moran’s verdict: “No case for Intelligent Design”

After quoting the 123-word passage from Meyer’s book which I highlighted in my original post, summarizing the four fundamental problems with unguided evolution, Professor Moran accuses Dr. Meyer of claiming that Intelligent Design must be true because Darwinism is false:

This passage merely affirms what we all know to be true; namely that there is no case for Intelligent Design Creationism. It’s just a bunch of whining about the inadequacies of the IDiot version of evolution. That version assumes that all of evolution is due to natural selection acting on random mutations and this gives rise to the appearance of design.

I don’t believe in that version of evolution and I don’t think that most species look as though they were designed. Does that mean that I’m an Intelligent Design Creationist? Of course not. Meyers (and Torley) have fallen for the trap of the false dichotomy.

Even if all four of Stephen Meyer’s critiques were correct, he still isn’t offering an alternative explanation and he still isn’t showing us evidence for an intelligent designer—or any other kind of designer.

As anyone who has read Darwin’s Doubt knows, this is a complete travesty of Meyer’s argument. Professor Moran is displaying his ignorance here.

The evidence for an intelligent designer, in a nutshell

Dr. Meyer’s case for an intelligent designer is spelt out with admirable lucidity in an Evolution News and Views post titled, Does Darwin’s Doubt Commit the God-of-the-Gaps Fallacy? (October 16, 2013). The argument proceeds as follows:

Premise One: Despite a thorough search and evaluation, no materialistic causes or evolutionary mechanisms have demonstrated the power to produce large amounts of specified or functional information (or integrated circuitry).

Premise Two: Intelligent causes have demonstrated the power to produce large amounts of specified/functional information (and integrated circuitry).

Conclusion: Intelligent design constitutes the best, most causally adequate, explanation for the specified/functional information (and circuitry) that was necessary to produce the Cambrian animals…

In fact, the argument for intelligent design developed in Darwin’s Doubt constitutes an “inference to the best explanation” based upon our best available knowledge….[A]n inference to the best explanation …asserts the superior explanatory power of a proposed cause based upon its established — its known — causal adequacy, and based upon a lack of demonstrated efficacy, despite a thorough search, of any other adequate cause. The inference to design, therefore, depends on present knowledgee of the causal powers of various materialistic entities and processes (inadequate) and intelligent agents (adequate).

Meyer’s argument can also be found in chapters 17 and 18 of his book, Darwin’s Doubt. Sadly, Professor Moran evinces no sign of having read those chapters. One wonders whether he merely skimmed Dr. Meyer’s book.

Why the neutral theory of evolution won’t remedy the deficiencies of neo-Darwinism

But let us return to Professor Moran’s remarks about natural selection. In his introduction to The Origin of Species, Charles Darwin wrote: “I am convinced that Natural Selection has been the main but not the exclusive means of modification.” In a similar vein, Richard Dawkins famously declared: “Evolution by natural selection is the only workable theory ever proposed that is capable of explaining life, and it does so brilliantly.”

Professor Moran does not share these views. He rejects the view that “evolution is due to natural selection acting on random mutations and this gives rise to the appearance of design,” forthrightly asserting: “I don’t believe in that version of evolution.” He maintains that “a huge number of mutations are neutral and there are far more neutral mutations fixed by random genetic drift that there are beneficial mutations fixed by natural selection.” This, he declares, is what modern-day evolutionists believe. In an earlier post, he complains that “you have to read very carefully to find any mention of modern evolutionary theory in Meyer’s book – he prefers to focus his attack on mutation + natural selection.”

What Professor Moran does not tell us here is that Dr. Stephen Meyer wrote a detailed and extensive critique of the neutral theory of evolution in his book, Darwin’s Doubt. In his critique, Dr. Meyer focuses on the ground-breaking work of Dr. Michael Lynch, a geneticist who espouses the neutral theory of evolution. Meyer argues that this theory is incapable of accounting for the origin of new animal body plans, because it is built on faulty mathematical assumptions (bolding mine – VJT):

Michael Lynch, a geneticist at Indiana University, … proposes a neutral or “non-adaptive” theory of evolution in which natural selection plays a largely insignificant role…

Lynch argues that in small populations, animal genomes will inevitably grow over time as nonprotein-coding sections of DNA (as well as gene duplicates) accumulate due to the weakness of natural selection. He thinks that these neutral mutations drive the evolution of animals.

… [F]or Lynch’s theory to explain the origin of new and functional genes and proteins (and the anatomical complexities that depend on them), his theory would have to solve the problem of combinatorial inflation… He would have to show that random mutations could efficiently search the relevant combinatorial space of possible sequences corresponding to a given novel functional gene or protein.

Nevertheless, Lynch does not even address the problem of combinatorial inflation or the closely related problem of the rarity of genes and proteins in sequence space…

Lynch does argue in one paper that neutral evolutionary processes can generate new complex adaptations – adaptations requiring multiple coordinated mutations – within realistic waiting times. In particular, writing in a recent paper with colleague Adam Abegg of St. Louis University, he argues that “conventional population genetic mechanisms” such as random mutation and genetic drift can cause the “relatively rapid emergence of specific complex adaptations.” …

But some things are just too good to be true, and it turns out that Lynch and Abegg made a subtle but fundamental mathematical error in coming to their conclusion. Appropriately, perhaps, the first person to demonstrate that Lynch’s incredible claim was problematic was Douglas Axe… In the end, he traced Lynch and Abegg’s claims to two erroneous equations, both of which were based on erroneous assumptions. In essence, Lynch and Abegg assumed that organisms will acquire a given complex adaptation by traversing a direct path to the new anatomical structure. Each mutation would build on the previous one in the most efficient manner possible – with no setbacks, false starts, aimless wandering, or genetic degradation – until the desired structure or system (or gene) is constructed. Thus, they formulated an undirected model of evolutionary change, and one that assumes, moreover, that there is no mechanism available (such as natural selection) that can lock in potentially favorable mutational changes on the way to some complex advantageous structure….

Yet nothing in Lynch’s neutral model ensures that potentially advantageous mutations will remain in place while other mutations accrue. As Axe explains, “Productive changes cannot be ‘banked,’ whereas Equation 2 [one of Lynch’s equations] presupposes that they can.” Instead, Axe shows, mathematically, that degradation (the fixation of mutational changes that make the complex adaptation less likely to arise) will occur much more rapidly than constructive mutations, causing the expected waiting time to increase exponentially.
(2013, pp. 321, 322, 326, 327-328)

Quoting Marshall – but missing the big picture

In another post, Professor Moran quotes with relish from a critical review of Dr. Meyer’s book by the eminent UC paleontologist, Professor Charles Marshall:

…when it comes to explaining the Cambrian explosion, Darwin’s Doubt is compromised by Meyer’s lack of scientific knowledge, his “god of the gaps” approach, and selective scholarship that appears driven by his deep belief in an explicit role of an intelligent designer in the history of life.

However, Dr. Meyer has responded at length to Professor Marshall’s criticisms, in a four-part series. Meyer’s most telling points can be found in his second post, which is titled, To Build New Animals, No New Genetic Information Needed? More in Reply in Charles Marshall. I’ll quote a few brief excerpts (bolding mine – VJT):

…Marshall simply assumes that most of the genetic information necessary to build the Cambrian animals already existed before the Cambrian explosion. In fact, he seems to presuppose the existence of what Susumu Ohno called a “pananimalian genome,”16 a nearly complete set of the genes necessary to build Cambrian animals within some phenotypically simpler, ur-metazoan ancestor. Thus, he states the new animal phyla “emerged through the rewiring of the gene regulatory networks (GRNs) of already existing genes.”17 …

Nevertheless, this question-begging assumption does not solve the central problem posed by Darwin’s Doubt — that of the origin of the genetic (and epigenetic) information necessary to produce the Cambrian animals. It merely pushes the problem back several tens or hundreds of millions of years, assuming that such a universal genetic toolkit ever existed.

Readers of the book will recall my discussion, in Chapters 9 and 10, of recent mutagenesis experiments. These experiments have established the extreme rarity of functional genes and proteins among the many (combinatorially) possible ways of arranging nucleotide bases or amino acids within their corresponding “sequence spaces.” … This extreme rarity also helps to explain why mathematical biologists, using standard population genetics models, are calculating exceedingly long waiting times (well in excess of available evolutionary time) for the production of new genes and proteins when producing such genes or proteins requires even a few coordinated mutations.20

For these reasons, defining the Cambrian explosion as a 25 million year event, as Marshall does, instead of a 10 million year event, as many other Cambrian experts do (and as I do in Darwin’s Doubt), makes no appreciable difference in solving the problem of the origin of genetic information — such is the extreme rarity of functional bio-macromolecules within their relevant sequence spaces. Nor, for that matter, does positing the origin of a complete set of genes (that is, many more than just one) for building all the Cambrian animals 100 million years before the Cambrian explosion. That merely pushes the problem back…In any case, the experimentally based calculations in Darwin’s Doubt show that neither ten million, nor several hundred million years would afford enough opportunities to produce the genetic information necessary to build even a single novel gene or protein, let alone all the new genes and proteins needed to produce new animal forms.

Nobody would question Professor Marshall’s expertise in paleontology, but the argument in Dr. Stephen Meyer’s book, Darwin’s Doubt, is ultimately a mathematical one. Until evolutionists demonstrate that they can grapple with the mathematics in Meyer’s argument, their criticisms of his book will continue to miss the mark.

Reading the critical reviews of Meyer’s book reinforced my conviction that many contemporary biologists fail to grasp that the scientific case for unguided evolution is built on a foundation of faulty math. As a philosopher of science, Dr. Meyer is to be congratulated for having the courage to publicly declare that the emperor has no clothes.

Finally, here’s what Harvard geneticist George Church (who isby no means an Intelligent Design theorist) said about Darwin’s Doubt:

Stephen Meyer’s new book Darwin’s Doubt represents an opportunity for bridge-building, rather than dismissive polarization — bridges across cultural divides in great need of professional, respectful dialog — and bridges to span evolutionary gaps.

Readers can find many more comments on this Web page by highly qualified scientists praising Darwin’s Doubt. Professor Moran is welcome to call them all “idiots” if he likes. But somehow I don’t think he’ll do that. Or will he?

Comments
I can't edit my last comment #609. My tablet self-edited my text while I was posting it and I can't correct it now. Typo warning: Live =lifeKevNick
May 31, 2015
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It looks like professor Larry Moran is still working on his "avalanche of evidences for the origin of life" that he is going to hit me with and wrap up my challenge to him #346 in one overwhelming scientific evidence blow. I do count on it. I mean, shouldn't one of world's greatest evolutionists and atheists have at least ONE, even 1 evidence that convinced HIM that live originated by chance without the need of an external agent? Is my challenge unreasonable?KevNick
May 31, 2015
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///Proteins in the cell do not arise SPONTANEOUSLY. They are manufactured, by machines. They are no less artifacts than man-made objects./// Not true. Proteins are products of spontaneous molecular interactions requiring no intelligent intervention (to the best of our knowledge). Human artifacts are always produced by the intelligent activity of humans.Evolve
May 31, 2015
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Eugene, No, in an RNA World you don't need any decoding since the same molecule that carries the information can also produce the physical effect. RNA world is indeed a hypothesis, but one with supporting evidence. ///Its sole purpose is to do away with obvious complexity issues. It fails./// That's silly. The hypothesis strives to explain the data in front of us.Evolve
May 31, 2015
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Evolve:
First of all man-made objects don’t exist naturally, but life’s molecules and their constituents are present naturally everywhere, even in space. These molecules react to produce other molecules SPONTANEOUSLY – and the net effect of these reactions is what we call life.
Proteins in the cell do not arise SPONTANEOUSLY. They are manufactured, by machines. They are no less artifacts than man-made objects. Man made objects are as natural as anything else in the cosmos, unless you're going to go all question-begging on us.
...but life’s molecules and their constituents are present naturally everywhere, even in space.
Not true. And can you please show us the spontaneous generation of codes and coding? Please.Mung
May 31, 2015
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///functionally specific.../// Functions are unintended consequences of molecular interactions. Shed your teleology and follow the chemistry. One reaction makes another possible, which makes another possible and you get a cascade of reactions generating life.Evolve
May 31, 2015
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Evolve #601, "The single molecule called RNA can carry recorded information and convert it." This does not solve the problem of coordinated coding/decoding and therefore that of a protocol. In this light, it does not matter how many molecules there are, one or many. So you can't get away with it. As soon as memory is required, we are dealing with a sign and its processing. And, BTW, the RNA world is just a hypothesis. Its sole purpose is to do away with obvious complexity issues. It fails.EugeneS
May 31, 2015
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KF, All present-day life have DNA-based chemistry because they are thought to have descended from a common ancestor with the same sort of chemistry. However, an RNA World is thought to have existed prior to that, relics of which still linger on. For instance, there are RNA viruses whose genome is either a single-stranded or double-stranded RNA. There are RNA enzymes in modern-day cells too. The Ribosome is arguably the most important cellular component today and at its heart is an RNA enzyme called peptidyl transferase which catalyzes the crucial peptide bond formation between amino acids to produce proteins. Other examples of ribozymes include self-splicing introns, hammerhead ribozymes etc.Evolve
May 31, 2015
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Ev, please show us an organism that is a living cell and operates on RNA and ribozymes, rather that predominantly DNA-RNA- ribosome- protein and protein based enzymes, etc. Or, something substantially at that level. KF PS: Don't confuse simplified presentation with lack of awareness of just how horrendously complex and functionally specific, carefully organised the full protein synthesis story is. I am focussing on a simple readily grasped aspect, just as, I am not giving the full wall sized chart of cellular metabolism, which would not fit in a blog post image anyway. And BTW, more FSCO/I raises the complexity-specificity functional barrier to blind watchmaker mechanisms even higher. BTW, here is a first level overview: http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/An_Introduction_to_Molecular_Biology/Protein_synthesiskairosfocus
May 31, 2015
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Mung, ///the requirements for the transfer of recorded information (recorded in a physical medium) and it’s conversion into a physical effect.../// The single molecule called RNA can carry recorded information and convert it into physical effects, accomplishing both roles on its own without the need for translation. How does your creation model account for such a possibility? How does creation help explain the transition from such an RNA World to the current DNA World? These are molecules and chemistry at play. Only chemical and physical principles can make sense of them, not ad hoc analogies to design. ///it just happens, that’s all/// Of course if earthquakes, hurricanes and supernova explosions can just happen, then so can another natural phenomenon called life. What's the alternative you have? It was designed on purpose but don't ask who, what or when. Case closed! No further examination required. ///Are you saying something non-physical (immaterial) is going on in these man-made physical systems?/// No, what I meant is clear unless you want to be defiant. First of all man-made objects don't exist naturally, but life's molecules and their constituents are present naturally everywhere, even in space. These molecules react to produce other molecules SPONTANEOUSLY - and the net effect of these reactions is what we call life. Man-made stuff only act at the behest of their designers and not spontaneously. This is an important distinction which you guys fail to acknowledge without fail because if you do, your entire premise will collapse. The whole ID movement rests on drawing analogies with human designs. That's your only "positive evidence"! ///That “[it] is the net result of a plethora of dynamic reactions and interactions among chemical molecules” could be said of just about anything, and is not therefore an explanation./// C'mon, I was trying to keep the message short and simple. One can go on and on about the explicit chemistry involved. For eg: KF compared the ribosome to a tape reader in his post. He has this simple Lego-block like picture in his mind where a static mRNA string threads through a static ribosome much like how a tape moves through the tape reader. But the ribosome isn't doing the same thing really. The ribosome is not even in one piece. It's the 30S subunit in complex with initiation factors IF1 and IF3 that attaches first to the 5'-UTR of the mRNA by means of hydrogen bonding between the Shine-Dalgarno sequence on the mRNA and 16S rRNA of the 30S subunit in bacteria. This recruits the IF2 initiation factor which carries tRNA-formylated methionine towards the start codon. Codon-anticodon base pairing occurs and the initiation complex forms. The complex then binds to the 50S ribosomal subunit. During elongation, multiple tRNAs enter the A-site of the ribosome, but only the one that base pairs with the codon binds. This binding places two amino acids adjacent to each other. The amino group of one amino acid attacks the carboxyl group of the adjacent one to form a peptide bond which is catalyzed by an rRNA called peptidyl transferase utilizing one GTP. This covalent bond formation causes deacylation the tRNA in the P-site. This is just a start, actually! From this alone you can see the chemistry at work, one reaction paves the way for a subsequent one, multiple reactions occur at the same time, bonds form and break, structures and conformations change and products get generated. Textbooks would simply say that the ribosome has 3 sites - A, P and E through which tRNAs move. But see what this technical paper has to say: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9598294 ...Structural studies do not support the three operationally defined sites in a simple fashion as three topographically fixed entities, thus leading to new concepts of tRNA binding and movement: (1) the hybrid-site model describes the tRNAs' movement through the ribosome in terms of changing binding sites on the 30S and 50S subunits in an alternating fashion. The tRNAs thereby pass through hybrid binding states. (2) The alpha-epsilon model introduces the concept of a movable tRNA-binding domain comprising two binding sites, termed alpha and epsilon. The translocation movement is seen as a result of a conformational change of the ribosome rather than as a diffusion process between fixed binding sites. The alpha-epsilon model reconciles most of the experimental data currently available. It is this dynamic chaos that's being underappreciated in your simple comparisons to man-made objects. All this chemistry happens on their own under the right environmental conditions with no external intervention. You got to acknowledge the fact that nature can produce its own designs.Evolve
May 31, 2015
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Ev, in short, there is a principle of demonstrating adequacy of claimed causes before projecting to the remote past; vera causa -- traces back to Newton. You are at the threshold of seeing the massively patent: the only empirically observed, needle in haystack plausible cause of the FSCO/I required for OOL, for starters, is design. If you cannot credibly show blind chance and mechanical necessity under reasonable circumstances doing what is needed, that is a clue. Secondly, a reasonable estimate for additional FSCO/I to get a body plan is 10 - 100mn bases. If you cannot address irreducible complexity [ie multiple mutually necessary parts to get core function] and pop generation time and size issues to reach something of that order, you are again staring at the same issue. Many of us who are here standing up on this question against the tide of the times do so because we have thought long and hard on those challenges. Just for fun, consider the difficulties to get realistic kinematic self replication of an entity that does significant other things going. KF PS: If you think a descriptive phrase abbreviation for functionally specific complex organisation and associated information is a synonym for "complexity" you do not begin to grasp what is on the table.As a clue, I came to ID through thermodynamics reasoning, as my always linked note will document. I suggest you start from Orgel and Wicken. Here: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/fyi-ftr-sparc-et-al-vs-the-patent-reality-and-relevance-of-wickens-organized-systems-which-must-be-assembled-element-by-element-according-to-an-external-wiring-diagram-with-a/kairosfocus
May 31, 2015
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Evolve, whether or not there once was a "stereochemical era" does not help you in the least. Your position is that we are still in that era. Silly person.Mung
May 31, 2015
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Carpathian, since you consider everything above the physical later to be immaterial, what would convince you that the link layer exists?Mung
May 31, 2015
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People like Evolve don't grasp the point.
Nobody disputes that there’s a flow of information from DNA-mRNA-Protein.
Some people dispute whether there's information at all. But the point is, the one you fail to grasp, is the question of the requirements for the transfer of recorded information (recorded in a physical medium) and it's conversion into a physical effect. The best you and Carpathian have managed is "it just happens, that's all."
... in man-made systems such information flow happens specifically through purpose-built transmitting units, channels & receiving units whose underlying operation is not driven by their physicochemical or structural crosstalk.
Are you saying something non-physical (immaterial) is going on in these man-made physical systems? Are you, like Carpathian, a dualist?
In life, however, information flow is the net result of a plethora of dynamic reactions and interactions among chemical molecules.
Handwaving. Science wants to know the cause or causes. The result is merely what requires an explanation. That "[it] is the net result of a plethora of dynamic reactions and interactions among chemical molecules" could be said of just about anything, and is not therefore an explanation. It's no different from "woo did it."
Since chemistry can operate by itself there’s no need to assign this to any intelligence. By drawing crude analogies, you’re only providing ad hoc explanations for the problem at hand instead of trying to determine how such a system may have arisen.
The point is not how it arose but how it functions. Does the process require a code, and if so why?Mung
May 31, 2015
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Mung, "Evolve, if there were no discontinuity between the codon and the amino acid there would be no need for an adaptor." Yes, indeed one hypothesis holds that protein synthesis initially originated without any adaptor. There are codon or anticodon-like triplets in RNA molecules that can bind some amino acids directly! Thus amino acid polymerisation could have occurred on RNA templates where these binding sites are sequentially present. The current adaptor may have evolved later. See: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15952885 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19795157Evolve
May 31, 2015
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Control systems and coordination protocols of the secretory pathway HT: Dionisio Contrary to Carpathian's assertions, Upright BiPed is not abusing the term "protocol" and protocols do not require the consent of two intelligent agents. Those are just red herrings to avoid discussing the issue that's on the table.Mung
May 31, 2015
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KF asks: "Ev, show us actual organisms, please" If we succeed in producing cells from scratch you will claim that it was a result of intelligent design. If we fail to do so you will still claim that the failure validates ID’s position that the cell is so complex and it can’t be synthesized (coin a fancy phrase for complexity : FSCO/I :-)). Heads I win, tails you lose! That's your position.Evolve
May 31, 2015
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People like KF and Andre don’t grasp the point. Nobody disputes that there’s a flow of information from DNA-mRNA-Protein. You can make all these fancy flowcharts and compare it to man-made information flow. OK fine. But, in man-made systems such information flow happens specifically through purpose-built transmitting units, channels & receiving units whose underlying operation is not driven by their physicochemical or structural crosstalk. In life, however, information flow is the net result of a plethora of dynamic reactions and interactions among chemical molecules. Since chemistry can operate by itself there's no need to assign this to any intelligence. By drawing crude analogies, you’re only providing ad hoc explanations for the problem at hand instead of trying to determine how such a system may have arisen. Consider this example: Birds have wings, aeroplanes also have wings. Both look awfully similar and serve pretty much the same purpose. Since aeroplane wings are designed, bird wings must also be designed! This sort of argument is bound to fail. Explore deeply and you'll see that the bird wing shares homology with your hand and even with fins of fossil fishes! Their developmental patterns establish this relationship firmly. Now look at the fossil record and you'll see how dinosaur arms transformed into bird wings. All this evidence also fits with other evidence for bird origins. We now have a much more comprehensive picture that has immense explanatory power than the ad hoc design explanation.Evolve
May 31, 2015
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Carpathian, you can see signals, which have been shown. Information rests in configurations or patterns of variation expressed in those signals and linked meanings that influence consequences and are meaningful, but it is not itself visible, just as energy is not itself visible or time is not itself visible. In a classic reference, wind proper is not visible too -- just its effects. KF PS, an oopsie, apparently there are 172 candidate AAs out there. 6^3 = 216 will cover that.kairosfocus
May 30, 2015
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Carpathian wants to see the immaterial components in the cell and if we cannot show them to him they do not exist. And Morse code doesn't actually work for communication because it doesn't have all seven layers of the OSI model.Mung
May 30, 2015
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Carpathian I'm from South Europe. We hear that some people from Carpathian mountains are little dense.Eugen
May 30, 2015
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kairosfocus:
In this, we see how at different layers, there is a virtual direct communication between peers but this is actually accomplished by interfaces up and down the stacks with physical transmission being at the lowest level.
The above are your words from your post. You have not shown an example of this. You have instead focused on translation. There is no point in my asking again if you can't answer the questions that I'm asking. So here it is for a last time. Where is the immaterial communication? Where are the two immaterial ends? An example of a physical translation that does not include the higher levels of a protocol is not good enough to prove your own examples of what constitutes a protocol.Carpathian
May 30, 2015
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Carpathian, You have been shown. Kindly cf the post here, including the diagrams, the infographic summary on protein synthesis and video: https://uncommondescent.com/irreducible-complexity/fyi-ftr-communication-system-framework-model/ Then particularly note the comparison of Yockey and Shannon. What you ask yet again has been presented and is there to be seen. As just one point of relevance, cf here on how researchers have sought to extend to a further base pair, NaM and 5SICS -- or X and Y for simplicity:
http://www.scripps.edu/news/press/2012/20120603romesberg.html >> Romesberg and his lab have been trying to find a way to extend the DNA alphabet since the late 1990s. In 2008, they developed the efficiently replicating bases NaM and 5SICS, which come together as a complementary base pair within the DNA helix, much as, in normal DNA, the base adenine (A) pairs with thymine (T), and cytosine (C) pairs with guanine (G). The following year, Romesberg and colleagues showed that NaM and 5SICS could be efficiently transcribed into RNA in the lab dish. But these bases’ success in mimicking the functionality of natural bases was a bit mysterious. They had been found simply by screening thousands of synthetic nucleotide-like molecules for the ones that were replicated most efficiently. And it had been clear immediately that their chemical structures lack the ability to form the hydrogen bonds that join natural base pairs in DNA. Such bonds had been thought to be an absolute requirement for successful DNA replication?—a process in which a large enzyme, DNA polymerase, moves along a single, unwrapped DNA strand and stitches together the opposing strand, one complementary base at a time. An early structural study of a very similar base pair in double-helix DNA added to Romesberg’s concerns. The data strongly suggested that NaM and 5SICS do not even approximate the edge-to-edge geometry of natural base pairs—termed the Watson-Crick geometry, after the co-discoverers of the DNA double-helix. Instead, they join in a looser, overlapping, “intercalated” fashion. “Their pairing resembles a ‘mispair,’ such as two identical bases together, which normally wouldn’t be recognized as a valid base pair by the DNA polymerase,” said Denis Malyshev, a graduate student in Romesberg’s lab who was lead author along with Karin Betz of Marx’s lab. Yet in test after test, the NaM-5SICS pair was efficiently replicable. “We wondered whether we were somehow tricking the DNA polymerase into recognizing it,” said Romesberg. “I didn’t want to pursue the development of applications until we had a clearer picture of what was going on during replication.” Edge to Edge To get that clearer picture, Romesberg and his lab turned to Dwyer’s and Marx’s laboratories, which have expertise in finding the atomic structures of DNA in complex with DNA polymerase. Their structural data showed plainly that the NaM-5SICS pair maintain an abnormal, intercalated structure within double-helix DNA—but remarkably adopt the normal, edge-to-edge, “Watson-Crick” positioning when gripped by the polymerase during the crucial moments of DNA replication. “The DNA polymerase apparently induces this unnatural base pair to form a structure that’s virtually indistinguishable from that of a natural base pair,” said Malyshev. NaM and 5SICS, lacking hydrogen bonds, are held together in the DNA double-helix by “hydrophobic” forces, which cause certain molecular structures (like those found in oil) to be repelled by water molecules, and thus to cling together in a watery medium. “It’s very possible that these hydrophobic forces have characteristics that enable the flexibility and thus the replicability of the NaM-5SICS base pair,” said Romesberg. “Certainly if their aberrant structure in the double helix were held together by more rigid covalent bonds, they wouldn’t have been able to pop into the correct structure during DNA replication.” An Arbitrary Choice? The finding suggests that NaM-5SICS and potentially other, hydrophobically bound base pairs could some day be used to extend the DNA alphabet. It also hints that Evolution’s choice of the existing four-letter DNA alphabet—on this planet—may have been somewhat arbitrary. “It seems that life could have been based on many other genetic systems,” said Romesberg. He and his laboratory colleagues are now trying to optimize the basic functionality of NaM and 5SICS, and to show that these new bases can work alongside natural bases in the DNA of a living cell. “If we can get this new base pair to replicate with high efficiency and fidelity in vivo, we’ll have a semi-synthetic organism,” Romesberg said. “The things that one could do with that are pretty mind blowing.” >>
Notice that key word, arbitrary? It is the echo of a protocol. Progress since has been to get an X-Y pair into a bacterium. Later, functions are intended, leading to a base of 2^6 = 176 possibilities for codons, assuming the codon triplet convention continues to hold. Likewise, the 3-letter codons and their tRNA assignments reflect protocols, as does the fact that the CCA-COOH coupler used to tie tRNA and AA is universal and independent of the actual AA side-branch. This is a context on which as was long since pointed out to you, thereare some two dozen variant codes and artificial assignments have been made. All of this shows that we are dealing with a co-ordinated system of formatting standards and frameworks, not fixed, forced inevitabilities. In that context, codes and protocols are plainly subject to being chosen, not given by the mere laws of physics and chemistry and linked natural forces. KFkairosfocus
May 30, 2015
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kairosfocus:
But the overall issue is not wranglings over hair-splitting differences on meanings of words that in the end only serve to confuse the onlooker, the issue is that once a communication system is present, there will be several well-matched, tightly correlated elements in an irreducibly complex array, that is functionally specific and information-rich.
There is no hair-splitting here since I'm accepting your definition of layered protocol. Where in the cell do those two sides of the communication protocol exist? Show me the agents that demonstrate your explanation of a layered protocol. A simple translation is not a protocol. Your examples of physical, link, transport layers etc. are fine. Where in the cell are these shown to exist?Carpathian
May 30, 2015
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Carpathian, protocols are standards that frame specs for messages and correlated encoders, modulators and transmission units in transmitters, as well as correlated receivers, demodulators and decoders in receivers. They may also address channel issues. Coders and Decoders may be multilevel, with peers in virtual direct contact at matching levels. Protocols also are directly linked to codes. Being embedded in the system they can be at least in part identified through reverse engineering exercises, as has been ongoing in molecular biology, winning several Nobel Prizes along the way. And it is patent that once a comms system is present by which signals are created, transferred to a receiver and then decoded and put to use, requisite protocols and codes are present. By the sheer logic of the process. As, in protein synthesis. I also know you are likely to want to object to our recognition of object code stored in D/RNA strings and back-traceable in part from protein AA chains. But, again, codes there are, as Crick recognised in the Mar 19 1953 letter that I have highlighted a snapshot of. That is who you need to answer to, not me. But the overall issue is not wranglings over hair-splitting differences on meanings of words that in the end only serve to confuse the onlooker, the issue is that once a communication system is present, there will be several well-matched, tightly correlated elements in an irreducibly complex array, that is functionally specific and information-rich. Thus, we see both IC and FSCO/I implying a massive needle in haystach blind search issue for any proposed blind watchmaker account of origin of cell based life. One that is nowhere near being solved. Worse, protein synthesis is at the heart of the operations of the living cell. And, there is but one empirically warranted, needle in haystack challenge plausible cause of FSCO/I. Intelligently directed configuration, AKA design. KFkairosfocus
May 30, 2015
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F/N: To aid in understanding, I have updated the FTR to include an annotated form of Shannon's 1948 diagram, just below Yockey's analysis of the protein synthesis system for the living cell: https://uncommondescent.com/irreducible-complexity/fyi-ftr-communication-system-framework-model/ While such will not stop objections and tangents, it will provide a reference context that will readily show the matching. It should also be evident how the expansions that explicitly distinguish code and/or modulation units and transmission/reception units are directly related. KF PS: It should be fairly obvious why for didactic and operational purposes I and others -- I even found much the same in Duncan, an A Level Physics text -- have found it useful to open up Shannon's black boxes and show specific components.kairosfocus
May 30, 2015
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kairosfocus:
Carpathian, again, did you notice the matched encoding/decoding pair? Now, consider a simple AM modulator, based on modifying Power supply amplitude in a transistor oscillator ckt that directly feeds an Antenna element. This goes to show that the elements of a Comms sys may blend aspects of the system model — it is abstract. KF
You keep bringing up translation. Your definition of protocol goes far beyond simple translation. Show the "protocol", not simple "translation". It is you that showed the protocol layers. If you understand what you have posted you realize that "translation" and "protocol" are not equivalent terms. Point to the two intelligent agents involved in the protocol in the cell. I am familiar with Am modulation, FM modulation, pulse width modulation, etc. That is not the issue. Show me the intelligent agents involved in the "protocol" in the cell.Carpathian
May 30, 2015
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Carpathian, again, did you notice the matched encoding/decoding pair? Now, consider a simple AM modulator, based on modifying Power supply amplitude in a transistor oscillator ckt that directly feeds an Antenna element. Then, again, compare a cartridge in a groove feeding magnetic elements then an amplifier-speaker embedding RIAA de-emphasis which then goes to your ear. The spiral groove, the motor, the head, all are blended together across the model. This goes to show that the elements of a Comms sys may blend aspects of the system model -- it is abstract. KF PS: D/RNA strands are string data structures, which hold info values based on prong height. The transcribed, snipped and spliced mRNA blends coding, and transmission there is a physical transfer. Decoding depends on tRNA's and a supporting loading process. The Ribosome-tRNA system again blends elements but aspects can be identified.kairosfocus
May 30, 2015
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Upright BiPed, Mung posted a good example when he talked about Morse code. In it he uses the term "discontinuity". I think a better term might be independence. This means that the data on on the telegraph line is not dependent on where or when in the data stream it occurs. Any "position" in the data stream could be any character. This independence is not seen in the DNA "code".Carpathian
May 30, 2015
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Upright BiPed:
My best guess is that you might need something very particular. Most probably, something very particular to the way the grooves are arranged on the disc in the first place. It seems to me that the method for retrieving the information off the disc would have to be in some sort of substantial prior agreement with the way the disc was made.
That is a standard, it is not a protocol. Read kairosfocus's definition of protocol.Carpathian
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