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Barna profiles a generation on the cliff’s crumbling edge — 78 million US Millennials

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Barna’s current report, “New Insights into the Generation of Growing Influence: Millennials In America,” is a portrait of a generation adrift, dancing on the edge of a cliff, and reflective of generations of civilisational betrayal by intellectual, policy/political, media and educational leadership leading to a destabilised culture. And so, this cannot wait, triple bereavement life crisis or no, this needs to be highlighted and preliminarily assessed here at UD:

The report’s snapshot summary tells the grim story in outline:

And:

Also, we may add on Religious identification, affinity and affiliation:

We can start with the obvious, as within living memory of those of us who were of age to notice, between 1989 and 1991, Marxism’s credibility as a principle of economic organisation collapsed before our eyes. So, if the immediately following generation does not understand such after its seventy years of chaos, tyranny, state led murder of over 100 millions and outright economic failure, we are dealing with a generation that were deliberately misled by ideologues who cared not a whit for that horrific track record. One that is actually worse than that of Communism’s kissing cousin, the National Socialist German Worker’s Party (Nazi, for short). (And yes, they meant the “Socialist.”)

So, first and foremost we are dealing with a deeply manipulated generation robbed of objective truth about pivotal worldview, policy, history, ideology and personal matters. That indicts at least two to three full generations of intellectual, policy, media and educational leaders and influencers, with implications across the full span of the pillars of community influence:

Likewise, the Overton Window speaks:

Where, the modified political spectrum is therefore also instructive on the peril:

So, it is unsurprising to see the overall outline being sketched. Selecting key points:

  • almost half of those born 1984 – 2002 prefer socialism to capitalism
  • a majority (likely with a large opposed minority and that’s the obvious trend-direction) “held a positive opinion of Jesus Christ, the United States of America and the Bible”
  • Confirming that inference, 40% “don’t know if God exists, don’t care if God exists, or don’t believe that He exists.” (God, the necessary and maximally great being at reality’s root is the single most important point of knowledge of reality; where, a serious candidate necessary being either exists as framework to any possible world or is impossible of being, the latter never having been shown. So the hyperskeptical indifference is telling on intellectual breakdown.)
  • Unsurprisingly, in this light, only 1/3 claim to “believe in God as the all-powerful, all-knowing, perfect and just creator of the universe who still rules the universe today”
  • parallelling this, “Roughly two-thirds . . . align themselves with the Christian faith”
  • likewise, “[j]ust over one-quarter of them said they do not associate with any religious faith”
  • “39% of 18-24 year olds identify as LGBTQ” (Historically, in the West, 1 – 3% have been practicing homosexuals but this proportion globally ranges from vanishingly small to 100% forced participation through institutionalisation, in different cultures.)
  • “[t]hree out of four . . . believe all religious faiths are of equal value”
  • on “social issues,” 40 percent [a now familiar figure] identify as liberal or progressivist, with 29% as conservative.
  • they identify as Democrats vs Republicans 2:1, revealing the predominant ideological influencers of their formative years
  • “[m]ost Millennials reject the existence of absolute moral truth and identify feelings, experiences, and advice from family and friends as their most trusted sources of moral guidance” (That is, they drift with the cultural flow and thus those who dominate education and media.)
  • likewise, three out of four “said that they are still searching for their purpose in life,” reflecting the influence of worldviews and cultural agendas that are antithetical to purpose, other than arbitrarily selected desires
  • “[o]f the nine cultural influencer categories tested, none of them were trusted by a majority to “always or almost always tell the truth or do what is right.” (This cynicism reflects disintegration of social and cultural capital built up over generations.)
  • “[t]he least trusted entities were entertainment celebrities, popular social media personalities, and elected government officials” (So, the influences come through peers and opinion leaders in families and groups.)
  • “The most highly trusted influencers were their parents and friends”
  • 2 out of 3 “admitted to avoiding interaction with someone if it was likely to produce conflict,” which tends to block change based on mutually critical reflection and to reinforce cultural echo chambers
  • issues they prioritise indicate “never let a crisis go to waste” media domination of their thinking: “CORONAVIRUS MANAGEMENT, CLIMATE CHANGE, RACIAL DISCRIMINATION, ABORTION, THE ECONOMY”

The need for a sound counter-culture is patent. END

Comments
In terms of conscience, it is most developed in people who have a certain conception of God. In a comment a couple months ago.
the existence of a certain type of God has implications for how well a society can function. Certain types of Gods bring with them a moral set of rules or a correct way of acting. And since this God is all powerful, He knows when we are adhering to this moral set of rules. This will affect our actions.
https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/lfp-47-the-credibility-of-the-concept-and-existence-of-god/#comment-737637 So as the concept of such a God wanes, a conscience or what is in that conscience also wanes. It is easy to find a lack of conscience in individuals. I am currently listening to O'Reilly's "Killing the Mob" and the atrocities that criminals have committed in the last 100 years here in the US is amazing for a theoretically Christian society.jerry
November 12, 2021
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Mussolini - some comments:
Socialism has to do with worker’s control of production or second best, government control of production. This has a long history of failure. Related to this is strong government control/regulations of private corporations so that they are essentially government entities... When the private corporation ends up essentially under government control, a different form of socialism happens. This is what happened in Mussolini’s Italy snd Hitler’s Germany.
https://uncommondescent.com/logic-and-first-principles-of-right-reason/lfp-41-worldview-formation-plausibility-structures-and-geostrategic-signs-of-our-times/#comment-729165 Mussolini was killed and hung upside down with his good friend Nicola Bombacci in 1945. Who was Nicola Bombacci? Answer: The founder of the Italian Communist party. They were trying to rewrite the Communist Manifesto at the time. (By the way this connection and who was killed with Mussolini is essentially hidden in any account of his death. I wonder why? )
Four days after his death, his old friend and comrade Victor Serge read of the event in a newspaper in Mexico, where he was living in exile, and wrote several pages in his journal concerning him. Engaging in what he called "practical psychology", Serge tried to imagine how a former communist could become a fascist: "Among some Italians, particularly among the ex-Marxists and ex-syndicalists, two visions became apparent: that with the liberal democracies exhausted and socialism weakened, the corporatist regimes were going to impose their new formulas; and that through this narrow gate would pass collectivism, the precondition for a socialism different from that desired by the nineteenth century, ... corresponding better to man's basic nature."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicola_Bombacci https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicola_Bombacci#/media/File:Mussolini_e_Petacci_a_Piazzale_Loreto,_1945.jpg Note above in Serge's analysis was the observation with liberal democracy weakened, corporations would impose ways of life. So is Big Tech the real enemy? If one wants to understand socialism, I recommend Joshua Muravchik’s book, Heaven on Earth. https://www.amazon.com/Heaven-Earth-Rise-Afterlife-Socialism/dp/1594039631
Socialism was man's most ambitious attempt to supplant religion with a doctrine claiming to ground itself in “science.” Each failure to create societies of abundance or give birth to “the New Man” inspired more searching for the path to the promised land: revolution, communes, social democracy, communism, fascism, Arab socialism, African socialism. None worked, and some exacted a staggering human toll. Then, after two centuries of wishful thinking and bitter disappointment, socialism imploded in a fin de siècle drama of falling walls and collapsing regimes. It was an astonishing denouement but what followed was no less astonishing. After the hiatus of a couple of decades, new voices were raised, as if innocent of all that had come before, proposing to try it all over again.
jerry
November 12, 2021
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Origenes, kindly note the historic significance of the citation of Hooker in Locke:
[2nd Treatise on Civil Gov't, Ch 2 sec. 5, citing "the judicious [Anglican Canon, Richard] Hooker":] . . . if I cannot but wish to receive good, even as much at every man's hands, as any man can wish unto his own soul, how should I look to have any part of my desire herein satisfied, unless myself be careful to satisfy the like desire which is undoubtedly in other men . . . my desire, therefore, to be loved of my equals in Nature, as much as possible may be, imposeth upon me a natural duty of bearing to themward fully the like affection. From which relation of equality between ourselves and them that are as ourselves, what several rules and canons natural reason hath drawn for direction of life no man is ignorant . . . [This directly echoes St. Paul in Rom 2: "14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them . . . " and 13: "9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law . . . " Hooker then continues, citing Aristotle in The Nicomachean Ethics, Bk 8:] as namely, That because we would take no harm, we must therefore do none; That since we would not be in any thing extremely dealt with, we must ourselves avoid all extremity in our dealings; That from all violence and wrong we are utterly to abstain, with such-like . . . ] [Eccl. Polity ,preface, Bk I, "ch." 8, p.80, cf. here. Emphasis added.] [Augmented citation, Locke, Second Treatise on Civil Government, Ch 2 Sect. 5. ]
It is because we have been robbed of that history that we fail to understand the pivotal importance of the first duties and how powerfully they shape practical moral government and law, thus civilisation. Conscience is a voice of witness, it itself is not the root source but it points to it, as has already been discussed. KFkairosfocus
November 11, 2021
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Kairosfocus @77, Ahhhh, so it's not merely the aspirational "end" (including social values, priorities, and outcomes) but also the "means" that largely determines the classification of a political system. -QQuerius
November 11, 2021
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Querius, of course, apart from hints, it is what is not in the manifesto that counts. KFkairosfocus
November 11, 2021
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Kairosfocus @69,
Fascism is the kissing cousin of Marxism.
Yes. Indeed it is!
Born to a socialist father, Mussolini was named after leftist Mexican President Benito Juárez. His two middle names, Amilcare and Andrea, came from Italian socialists Amilcare Cipriani and Andrea Costa. Early in Mussolini’s life, for instance, those names seemed appropriate. While living in Switzerland from 1902 to 1904, he cultivated an intellectual image and wrote for socialist periodicals such as L’Avvenire del Lavoratore (The Worker’s Future). He then served in the Italian army for nearly two years before resuming his career as a teacher and journalist. In his articles and speeches, Mussolini preached violent revolution, praised famed communist thinker Karl Marx and criticized patriotism. In 1912 he became editor of Avanti! (Forward!), the official daily newspaper of Italy’s Socialist Party. But he was expelled from the party two years later over his support for World War I. https://www.britannica.com/biography/Benito-Mussolini/Rise-to-power
So what did Mussolini believe and what was his platform? Let's go the source: On June 6, 1919, Mussolini published the "Fascist Manifesto" in his newspaper, Il Popolo d'Italia, The People of Italy. Here's the translation:
Italians! Here is the program of a genuinely Italian movement. It is revolutionary because it is anti-dogmatic, strongly innovative and against prejudice. For the political problem: We demand: a) Universal suffrage polled on a regional basis, with proportional representation and voting and electoral office eligibility for women. b) A minimum age for the voting electorate of 18 years; that for the office holders at 25 years. c) The abolition of the Senate. d) The convocation of a National Assembly for a three-years duration, for which its primary responsibility will be to form a constitution of the State. e) The formation of a National Council of experts for labor, for industry, for transportation, for the public health, for communications, etc. Selections to be made from the collective professionals or of tradesmen with legislative powers, and elected directly to a General Commission with ministerial powers. For the social problems: We demand: a) The quick enactment of a law of the State that sanctions an eight-hour workday for all workers. b) A minimum wage. c) The participation of workers' representatives in the functions of industry commissions. d) To show the same confidence in the labor unions (that prove to be technically and morally worthy) as is given to industry executives or public servants. e) The rapid and complete systemization of the railways and of all the transport industries. f) A necessary modification of the insurance laws to invalidate the minimum retirement age; we propose to lower it from 65 to 55 years of age. For the military problem: We demand: a) The institution of a national militia with a short period of service for training and exclusively defensive responsibilities. b) The nationalization of all the arms and explosives factories. c) A national policy intended to peacefully further the Italian national culture in the world. For the financial problem: We demand: a) A strong progressive tax on capital that will truly expropriate a portion of all wealth. b) The seizure of all the possessions of the religious congregations and the abolition of all the bishoprics, which constitute an enormous liability on the Nation and on the privileges of the poor. c) The revision of all military contracts and the seizure of 85 percent of the profits therein.
So, ask yourself honestly: How many of the above points do you or anyone reading this disagree with? No, I'm not Fascisti. I'm just pointing out that Fascism is actually compatible with many political ideologies in the Americas. Both the U.S. and China could be classified as Fascist, but certainly not "right-wing." By establishing his own nationalist/socialist franchise in Italy, Mussolini became the object of intense hatred by internationalist communists, which persists as a common pejorative to this day, Fascist, mostly by people who are totally clueless about Fascism and simply use that pejorative against anyone who disagrees (how dare they!) with their own views. Tangentially, I'd point out that current politics in general is mostly about manipulation and betrayal of trust. That's why I despise politics and I resent being driven into an arena with people who are in bitter combat over who gets to control the graft, corruption, and juicy payouts for their supporters and the civil service at the expense of the hardworking population they're supposed to be serving. Think I'm over-reacting? Read this:
“In politics, you should take care of your friends,” said (former California Governor, Jerry) Brown, noting that both Michael Picker, president of the California Public Utilities Commission, and Rose Bird, former chief justice of the California court system, started out working for his various campaigns. “Loyalty is important. Keep the meritocracy within limits.” “Politics is a difficult business,” he said. “You need to raise massive sums of money from people who all want something and if you give it to them directly, you’ll go to jail. But if you don’t give it to them in some form, you won’t be elected to the next office.” – Gov. Jerry Brown, last interview, December 2018
This is the reality of our current politics. -QQuerius
November 11, 2021
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Earth to JVL and seversky- ID traces back to before Christianity. Now what?ET
November 11, 2021
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Conscience is extensively described in Wikipedia and the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy. Both religious and non-religious understandings. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscience https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/conscience/jerry
November 11, 2021
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Kairosfocus,
as a faculty of mind it [conscience] informs us as to our sense of realities: at root, A is true, the reasoning behind A is credible, X is a neighbour like we are.
It is as if you are saying that the ‘voice of conscience’ tells us whether our reasoning is correct or not. So, according to you, it (also) fulfills the role we usually ascribe to (among other faculties) logical insight. Can you elaborate?
Duties obtain, details work through, if we have more elaborate moral training, for good or ill, it is part of our awareness of our freedom and alternatives.
So, the ‘voice of conscience’ informs us of basic duties, but “elaborate moral training” is required to make correct moral decisions [to ascertain what the concrete duty is in situation Y] when complex scenarios arise and require us to weigh a multitude of factors.
Justice is due balance of rights, freedoms, duties.
Indeed, many things need to be weighed and factored in. So, you are saying that the ‘voice of conscience’ offers no direct conclusive solutions —“now you ought to do X”— when complex scenarios arise? IOWs the ‘voice of conscience’ isn’t able to give concrete guidance to a person in many situations?Origenes
November 11, 2021
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What is the motive behind the crime? I say the motive is, the feelings associated to conceiving of making a choice in terms of figuring out the best option. That throws out the subjective spirit from the concept of choice. It provides feelings of certainty about what is good and evil, because the facts of good and evil are used to evaluate what is the best option. And everyone loves to be the best, and is pressured to do their best. So that is strong psychological motivation. My explanation is perfect. - rejection of subjectivity explains perfectly the kind of mental illness seen - there is strong psychological motivation for the crimes You provide no explanation for motive.mohammadnursyamsu
November 11, 2021
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I'm pretty confident the war has already been won by "the good guys" and what we're going through now is a controlled decompression to generate as little upheaval as possible. You can't warn people about the cliff; they have to go right up to the edge and see it for themselves, and see some of their friends and family fall off before they'll turn against the tide.William J Murray
November 11, 2021
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F/N: Note, how no-one has been able to cogently provide a rebuttal to the focal point made in the OP:
within living memory of those of us who were of age to notice, between 1989 and 1991, Marxism’s credibility as a principle of economic organisation collapsed before our eyes. So, if the immediately following generation does not understand such after its seventy years of chaos, tyranny, state led murder of over 100 millions and outright economic failure, we are dealing with a generation that were deliberately misled by ideologues who cared not a whit for that horrific track record. One that is actually worse than that of Communism’s kissing cousin, the National Socialist German Worker’s Party (Nazi, for short). (And yes, they meant the “Socialist.”) So, first and foremost we are dealing with a deeply manipulated generation robbed of objective truth about pivotal worldview, policy, history, ideology and personal matters. That indicts at least two to three full generations of intellectual, policy, media and educational leaders and influencers . . .
This of course immediately points to the negative credibility of the worldview and cultural agenda shaping or influencing classes and institutions. They had too much capability, access to information, witnesses and experts for this not to be willful betrayal in pursuit of agendas hostile to truth and right or even basic prudence. We should reject those classes as our idea, policy guidance or news sources and create or support serious alternatives. As a part of that we need to hold major critical reviews on the deceptions of the past generations and hold key figures to personal account for their betrayal. Institutions need to be exposed, going across the board. Some need to be forced to make restitution for damage done by their betrayal. As we scan across the broader range of issues listed, we need to reckon with these on the now established foundation of cynical, willful betrayal and ruthless manipulation through frankly lies backed by power and presented under false colours of truth, history, science, education, medicine, law, sound government, policy analysis, news, entertainment, arts/culture and so forth. They now have forfeited the presumption of innocence and mere error and should be seen as purveyors of willful falsehood and manipulation to gain unaccountable power. This is, "a long train of abuses and usurpations." Pursuing a clear design of hopeless subjugation under lawless oligarchs. Then, we need to go to truly, soundly, prudently radical reformation fully comparable to what was done on or about July 4, 1776. We need to go back to root worldviews, policy, history, institutional, government and governance issues, education, the academy, the professions, the media etc and rebuild on soundness. The rot -- the deliberately fostered corruption -- is broad and deep and needs to be dealt with before it utterly ruins our civilisation. KFkairosfocus
November 11, 2021
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Querius, China has reverted to what it was under the Nationalists, a fascist state that is prone to lawless oligarchy. Fascism is the kissing cousin of Marxism. As to spectra, the one above is historically anchored and useful in providing insights into dynamics as the Overton window's BATNAs are pushed. Currently in the US, lawfulness is being undermined and lawless oligarchy looms, with grave major potential geostrategic implications, starting with distraction in the face of an obvious Chinese push for blue ocean breakout and the continued islamist global push (it's not just the Mullahs). KFkairosfocus
November 10, 2021
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MNY, it would be far more accurate to speak of manipulation of emotions. Our emotions are strong, but are no sounder than the underlying accuracy and soundness of perceptions, desires, expectations, judgements etc. KFkairosfocus
November 10, 2021
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Origenes, the key to conscience is clearly principles and relationships, connected together through neighbour love. As a faculty of mind it informs us as to our sense of realities: at root, A is true, the reasoning behind A is credible, X is a neighbour like we are. Duties obtain, details work through, if we have more elaborate moral training, for good or ill, it is part of our awareness of our freedom and alternatives. Justice is due balance of rights, freedoms, duties. From such, much flows, and our habitual choices have their own impact, for good or ill. Such becomes particularly evident in that heightened form of disagreement we call quarrelling. KF PS: Let us remember Locke's point:
[2nd Treatise on Civil Gov't, Ch 2 sec. 5, citing Hooker:] . . . if I cannot but wish to receive good, even as much at every man's hands, as any man can wish unto his own soul, how should I look to have any part of my desire herein satisfied, unless myself be careful to satisfy the like desire which is undoubtedly in other men . . . my desire, therefore, to be loved of my equals in Nature, as much as possible may be, imposeth upon me a natural duty of bearing to themward fully the like affection. From which relation of equality between ourselves and them that are as ourselves, what several rules and canons natural reason hath drawn for direction of life no man is ignorant . . . [This directly echoes St. Paul in Rom 2: "14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them . . . " and 13: "9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law . . . " Hooker then continues, citing Aristotle in The Nicomachean Ethics, Bk 8:] as namely, That because we would take no harm, we must therefore do none; That since we would not be in any thing extremely dealt with, we must ourselves avoid all extremity in our dealings; That from all violence and wrong we are utterly to abstain, with such-like . . . ] [Eccl. Polity ,preface, Bk I, "ch." 8, p.80, cf. here. Emphasis added.] [Augmented citation, Locke, Second Treatise on Civil Government, Ch 2 Sect. 5. ]
PPS: Aquinas is also relevant:
[Summa Theologica, First Part of the Second Part, Question 91, article 1, on eternal law: As stated above (I-II:90:1 ad 2; I-II:91:3-4), a law is nothing else but a dictate of practical reason emanating from the ruler who governs a perfect community. Now it is evident, granted that the world is ruled by Divine Providence, as was stated in I:22:1 and I:22:2, that the whole community of the universe is governed by Divine Reason. Wherefore the very Idea of the government of things in God the Ruler of the universe, has the nature of a law. And since the Divine Reason's conception of things is not subject to time but is eternal, according to Proverbs 8:23, therefore it is that this kind of law must be called eternal . . . . Next, article 2 following, on natural law: As stated above (I-II:90:1 ad 1), law, being a rule and measure, can be in a person in two ways: in one way, as in him that rules and measures; in another way, as in that which is ruled and measured, since a thing is ruled and measured, in so far as it partakes of the rule or measure. Wherefore, since all things subject to Divine providence are ruled and measured by the eternal law, as was stated above (Article 1); it is evident that all things partake somewhat of the eternal law, in so far as, namely, from its being imprinted on them, they derive their respective inclinations to their proper acts and ends. Now among all others, the rational creature is subject to Divine providence in the most excellent way, in so far as it partakes of a share of providence, by being provident both for itself and for others. Wherefore it has a share of the Eternal Reason, whereby it has a natural inclination to its proper act and end: and this participation of the eternal law in the rational creature is called the natural law. Hence the Psalmist after saying (Psalm 4:6): "Offer up the sacrifice of justice," as though someone asked what the works of justice are, adds: "Many say, Who showeth us good things?" in answer to which question he says: "The light of Thy countenance, O Lord, is signed upon us": thus implying that the light of natural reason, whereby we discern what is good and what is evil, which is the function of the natural law, is nothing else than an imprint on us of the Divine light. It is therefore evident that the natural law is nothing else than the rational creature's participation of the eternal law.
kairosfocus
November 10, 2021
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P.S. Imagine the people in the U.S. using "red" and "blue" political designations two hundred years from now when the U.S. is a collapsed nation ruled by dozens of warlords, with roving robber bands in between the city states and the heavily guarded Chinese strip mining, oil fracking, and clear cutting operations throughout the post-apocalyptic continent. Red-blue would be just as completely irrelevant as the left-right designations that survived Napoleonic France. -QQuerius
November 10, 2021
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Kairosfocus @59, I agree that the archaic one-dimensional political spectrum should be retired. Quite honestly, I don't think any other one is adequate. One can certainly imagine a libertarian monarch and a totalitarian democracy, where 51% of the people can dictate how the other 49% can think and act. You might be able to make the case for separating an economic system from a political system--Communist China does support a free market and the population is spread between abjectly poor farmers, mildly prosperous city dwellers, some extremely wealthy individuals. In 2011, over 90% of the 1,000 richest people tracked by the Hurun Report are either officials or members of the Chinese Communist Party (CCP). Here's the Forbes list of the wealthiest people in Communist China: https://www.forbes.com/china-billionaires/list/#tab:overall So how does the Chinese version of Communism square with "from each according to their ability and to each according to their need"? What I'm saying is that what governs a country has impact from the following factors: 1. How does a government administration comes into power? 2. How much influence do the people have on government policy? 3. How much influence do business interests have on government policy? 4. How much suppression there is of minority interests? (for example, can cities vote themselves all the water from agricultural areas?) 5. How much corruption is there in the government, including its legal system? 6. How much are people and businesses being taxed? 7. How stable and predictable is the administration? 8. How much power do bureaucrats and officials have? Realize that the U.S. has two parallel legal systems, one relates to criminal and business/tort law, the other to bureaucratic policy enforcement. 9. How much bureaucratic red tape is involved in starting a business? In hiring employees? 10. How free is immigration and emigration? And so on . . . -QQuerius
November 10, 2021
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Arguably a ‘voice of conscience’ which knows right & wrong in every situation and which, according to Cicero, is ‘law’, that is representing God, does not come from a simple set of rules. What is right & wrong depends on context more often than not. Millions of books are written to prove this point. “Always tell the truth”, obviously doesn’t cut it when you are interrogated by Nazis, but there are many far less obvious scenario’s in which simple rules fail to guide one to what’s right, in which determining what is right & wrong demands extensive knowledge of context and the ability to weigh a multitude of factors. If I am right about this, and a simple set of two-dimensional rules cannot provide enough guidance, then what does produce a Godly voice of conscience inside a human? It must be something that observes and understands the entire context of one’s ever changing situation. It has to live your life with you, so to speak. In other words, given that the voice of conscience is not mine, as is Cicero’s claim, it has to be another (Godly) person in me.Origenes
November 10, 2021
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This is all such naive thinking. Society is being ripped apart, and supposedly this is about people not doing their duties. No, it's not about that, it's about total anti-human evil. Total rejection of all human emotions, because emotions are subjective, and not objective. It's systematic destruction of human emotion, ripping people's heart out, and leaving them crazy, bereft of emotion. Your mistake is, you also don't really know that emotions are subjective, or what it means for something to be subjective. Subjective means that what makes a choice, can only be identified with a chosen opinion. You can see that scientific materialism, that it has lots of credibility at universities. The idea is generally respected and popular, that all what exists is objective, and there exists nothing sujbective. So the entire spiritual domain, the agency of any choice, human, divine, or otherwise, is totally rejected. So on facebook you have this army of millenial zombies arguing repetitively, "if there is no evidence for it, then it is not real" Which means all what is subjective, like the emotions love, hate, fear, etc. are not real. That is a real explanation for evil, unlike your duties. To go out of your way to destroy human emotion, because of being fact obsessed, and therefore systematically throwing out all what is subjective.mohammadnursyamsu
November 10, 2021
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. Seversky at #37, JVL at #60, Why does it require researchers to provide two complimentary descriptions of the gene system in order to document the way it works? Everything just follows physical law does it not?Upright BiPed
November 10, 2021
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JVL (attn Seversky), the fine tuning of the cosmos grounds an inference to design of our world, not to particular detailed theologies of God. We may go further to observe that a world with morally governed, responsible, significantly free creatures points to the need for a root of reality able to bridge is and ought. The only serious candidate to be such -- try to propose one without either failing to bridge or collapsing into absurdity: ____ -- after centuries of debate, is the inherently good and utterly wise creator God, a necessary and maximally great being worthy of loyalty and of the reasonable service of doing the good that accords with our evident nature. Such outlines on inference to best worldview explanation, the God of generic ethical theism. God as understood in more detail in the Christian tradition, is so understood through inscripturated prophetic revelation, with detailed fulfillment across centuries such as Jesus as wounded healer messiah who rises from the dead with 500 unstoppable witnesses and brings reconciliation with God from the breach caused by our misconduct. That more specific understanding is generally compatible with generic ethical theism, as the disciplines of philosophy of religion and systematic theology develop. For simple example, attributes of God are holographic microcosms, profoundly pointing to one another and maximal greatness has to do with having great-making properties in maximal compossible degree across all possible worlds. Similarly, necessary, reality root being implies mind with creative power causally enabling the instantiation of any and all possible worlds, being part of the framework for any world to exist. By contrast, say two-ness is similarly necessary and framework to any distinct possible world W with close but distinct neighbour W' but such has no causal power. Though, 2 and its company in N, Z, Q, R, C, R* etc define structure and quantity constraints to being in any world. This gives core math its universal power. KF PS: I gave this outline on worldview issues as I am aware it can be hard to find such in any reasonably brief compass. Standard works on systematic theology tend to be 3,000 + pp [Barth is 12,000 IIRC], and Grudem's 101 for students weighs in at 1200. It remains that the gross betrayal of civilisation exposed in the OP is a telling slice of a rotten cake, and I find it interesting that so far there has been no serious effort to defend what has been done.kairosfocus
November 10, 2021
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Seversky: People had become aware that the world was an ordered place from simple observation, long before Christianity emerged. They watched the changing of the seasons, the movement of constellations in the sky, the migration of animals, when a river delta flooded. They noticed that a weight on the end of a piece of string could be used to provide a vertical reference line, KF’s favorite plumbline. No faith was required because they could be observed by anyone who took the trouble to look. Exactly so! Way before there was anything like Christianity humans had come to the conclusion that some natural events were predictable and fit some kind of pattern. Arguably part of the plan behind the pyramids of Giza and very likely Stonehenge. Given that those two examples are separated by thousands of miles and many cultural hurdles it's not too much of a leap to suppose that humans were looking for sense and coherence in the natural world WAY, WAY before Christianity. If that's true then the adoption of Christianity comes after the acceptance of there being an order and framework to reality. Which makes Christianity just one possible explanation for that order and framework. Discuss.JVL
November 10, 2021
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Q, I looked at various spectra, and what I showed is actually the diagonal of a cube. I add, the right of the Speaker were the supporters of Monarchy, seats of honour and those increasingly sinister . . . Latin for left . . . just the opposite. Monarchy by and large has been dead since 1918. Though we see a Communist monarchy in No Ko. The right is ill defined and the centre is worse. Time for it to be retired. KFkairosfocus
November 10, 2021
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P.S. There's also the "political triangle." It's interesting, but I'm not sure that it's necessarily better. For example, contrary to their assertion, German national socialism historically was a blend of authoritarianism, nationalism, racism, and socialism . Stalin's soviet system was a blend of authoritarianism, state-managed economy, internationalism, and socialism in my opinion. https://www.greatconversations.us/p/the-political-triangle -QQuerius
November 10, 2021
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Kairosfocus, Regarding your critique of the left-right political spectrum with regard to national socialism, have you ever considered the "political compass"? For those unfamiliar with the concept, the X-axis extremes represent economic collectivism to individualism, and the Y-axis extremes represent political totalitarianism to libertarianism. There are dozens of "tests" that you can take online, most are uselessly ambiguous in my opinion, and there are some significant criticisms against the political compass, but I think it's far more functional than the left-right political spectrum, which traces its roots to the Napoleonic-era. -QQuerius
November 10, 2021
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Origenes, moral government is in key part constitutive of our nature. Without rational responsible, significant, morally governed characteristics we would not be the sort of creatures we are. And in the normal case that includes the voice of conscience. KFkairosfocus
November 10, 2021
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Everything You Believe Is Wrong – William Briggs
William Briggs:Everything You Believe Is Wrong Now change "You" with "William Briggs"Lieutenant Commander Data
November 10, 2021
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Ram @44 If I understand Cicero's concept correctly, which is yet to be confirmed by KF, then the first duties "implanted" into us by God are "congenial and correspondent with the true nature of man", which perhaps addresses some of the concerns you've raised.
Ram: Unless a particular human, at very least, can accept and hold the information that the Spirit of God attempts to bequeath, then such a transfer can’t happen. The recipient has to be able to receive what is given. A lock has to be able to be able to accept the key.
There seems to be a continues transfer of information about first duties by way of a “voice of conscience”. Cicero speaks about this voice as if it is not part of a human being: "the voice of conscience is a law "—in effect the voice of God. In a sense, we are continually coached by God, to act in accord with the first duties which he has implanted into us.Origenes
November 10, 2021
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Probably a must read for this OP and relevant to many of the discussions here.
One Book To Rule Them All: Everything You Believe Is Wrong - William Briggs
https://wmbriggs.com/post/38060/ Hans Rosling said the more educated you are the less what you believe is in sync with the truth. His books was called Factfulness, published just before he died.jerry
November 10, 2021
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Cicero’s ideas on duties have nothing to do with religion. These duties promote basic human objectives no matter how they arose and are obvious in how they do that. Aside: Cicero missed some essential basic ideas and bought into an oppressive ideology that preceded him and lasted for centuries after him. Another aside: Smaug is flying around and magic words are being uttered so expect him to descend.jerry
November 10, 2021
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