Barry Concedes a Point to TSZ, Well, Sorta

_{Barry Arrington

May 31, 2013

Intelligent Design}

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My thanks go to KF for pointing out the dustup over at TSZ over my last post. I found this little gem at TSZ particularly amusing.

Allan Miller quotes me and responds:

Barry: “Materialists are obliged to believe …”

Miller: … absolutely nothing. There is no obligation.

Well Allan, I suppose it depends on what one means by “obliged.”

My dictionary defines it in two ways:

“to require or constrain as by law or command”

“to require or constrain as by conscience”

Perhaps our difference lies in the different ways we have used the word. You are certainly correct that no one is going to require or constrain materialists by law or command to accept the conclusions that are logically compelled by their premises. There is no law against being irrational. You’ve got me there. I concede your point.

I was, however, using the word in the second sense. I assume (perhaps incorrectly, but I am always willing to give the benefit of the doubt) that materialists are honest. Honestly mistaken, but honest nevertheless. My conscience compels me to accept the conclusions that are logically compelled by my premises. For example, I believe the truth claims made in the ancient Christian creeds. From this premise I am “obliged” to further believe that there is one and only one God, and this means I am not free to believe there are 50 gods.

I assume that, just as with myself, materialists’ consciences compel them to accept the conclusions that are compelled by their premises. That is how I was using the word “obliged.” Now back to my original point to which you took umbrage. I wrote:

“Materialists are obliged to believe that every aspect of human behavior is determined – that it was selected for by evolutionary processes. Materialists are, therefore, obliged to believe that humor conferred on humans some reproductive advantage that was selected for by natural selection.”

Now, it seems to me that given their premises materialists are in fact “obliged” to believe these things. If you disagree you must show me where I am wrong. If I have stated correctly materialist premises and the argument I have constructed from those premises is valid, then the conclusions I have reached follow as a matter of logic. If you believe I am wrong you must show me where I have misstated materialist premises or where my argument is invalid or both. Your “neener neener neener I’m not obligated to believe anything” response is, to say the least, not particularly compelling.

Comments

CharlieD I will try to make this clear. If you are a materialist or naturalist then you can't find, do, say, feel or think any of the things you claim that you can. It's not me that says it but science does. The only way to do it is to go against your worldview and believe in things that are not real which you can't because you can't find, do, say, feel or think like science says so. Do you see the problem?JLAfan2001_{May 31, 2013
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I'm sorry, this may not be very Christian of me, but why give any more time to arguing with CharlieD. He has managed to provide nothing of any substance to any discussion so far and every response made to him has been a complete waste of everyone's time. For goodness sake stop what you are doing, and hopefully he will disapear.PeterJ_{May 31, 2013
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CharlieD:Ive studied enough of religion to understand that the basic principles of each religion are all the same. Then how do you account for the Protestant Reformation? The fact that Christians believe Jesus to be the Messiah but Jews do not? The fact that not all religions teach the concept of hellfire? It sounds to me like you've studied very little. I'm sorry to break it to you, but your condescending attitude is disrespectful. There are people on this forum who have at least 50 IQ points on you, including myself. You are a sad little troll. Time for bed!Barb_{May 31, 2013
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Wow JLA did get a stick up your rear too? Jeez, chill out, youre not even making sense anymore. Youre not reading anything I say. Just keep banging away at those keyboards, youll get it eventually.CharlieD_{May 31, 2013
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Oh yeah jesus said that, cause it says it in this here book. Ive studied enough of religion to understand that the basic principles of each religion are all the same. They might go about things slightly differently but they are all the same in the end. Im sorry to break it to you, but your religion is no better than the many other that are here now and even those that have come and gone.CharlieD_{May 31, 2013
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"No, youre the one not listening. I told you, it is up to each individual to find meaning and purpose in their lives. Humans have the luxury of higher order thinking that other animals do not, it is up to us to think for ourselves and find what makes us happy. I didnt create something out of thin air, I grew up exploring the world around me, trying to find out what I enjoyed and I continue to do these things. You completely ignored what I said and are trying to make me look like someone who advocates that life has no purpose. I say find your own purpose and meaning." And the idiot keeps repeating the same old refuted shit. How can you find meaning and purpose IF IT DOESN'T EXIST!!! Please find me the easter bunny or santa claus. At least I can see pics of them. I can't see your meaning. Dawkins has even said that the universe exhibits no purpose so what is there to find?? If the universe has no purpose then by extension neither do you. You either found something thst doesn't exist, which is not possible, or you made it up which I want evidence for. Same thing goes for purpose. Humans don't think. They can't think because mind, conciousness are not real. They are just synapses igniting in your brain. YOU ARE NOT DOING THE THINKING!!! Ask Sam Harris. Find what makes me happy? Again happiness is just chemicals in my brain that produces a sensation that through the English language we've called happiness. You are just going here for more chems to there for more chems. Do this for more chems and do that for more chems. You're nothing but a chemical addict. Finding thaings that make you fuzzy and warm inside so you can cope with life. WEAKLING!!! I'm saying that you're someone who thinks life has no purpose. I'm saying life itself has no purpose. IT DOESN'T EXIST NO MORE THAN THE GOD YOU HATE DOES!!! Again you can't be good because it doesn't exist either in the universe. It's just man made which I would like to ask where is your scientific prof that killing some one is wrong? I know that the standard answer is we need morals to survive but survival is arbitrary. Why should your morals and ideals survive and not Islam's? What makes yours better than theirs? If killing you makes a Muslim live, wouldn;t that sense of morality be for survival. You may say it's for the survival of the human species but where is it written that humans MUST survive? You think nature gives a shit about us? There are 1.5 billion muslims in the world. If they were to kill of the rest of humanity for their ideals to flourish they wouldn't they be right to do so? Maybe that's where they find their purpose and meaning. Who are you to say otherwise, useless animal?JLAfan2001_{May 31, 2013
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CharlieD: "A person only needs one rule to live by in my opinion: Treat others as you would like them to treat you." Jesus said that. So did Confucius. Know what they had in common? RELIGION. "Please tell me how all the other religions of the world are more of a fairytale than yours. Go for it." That's going to take a while. Try actually studying about religion instead of simply mocking it. Or would that be too much of an intellectual challenge for you? By your standards the bible is just the original version of “chicken soup for the soul.” While a great read that offers readers a chance step back and look at life from a different perspective, it is no better than any other holy book, just as no one religion is any different from the others. Actually, the Bible is far more than that. If you had actually ever read it, you would know that. You're claiming that all religions are the same. They're not. They have different scriptures, tenets, etc. You do know this, right? Because you've had experiences, and all. Seriously, Charlie, you are a sad little troll. Back under your bridge now, it's past your bedtime.Barb_{May 31, 2013
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43 Btw - didn't Jesus say that?Optimus_{May 31, 2013
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Hmm I put all religions into one large group? Like say "Religion"...weird huh. Please tell me how all the other religions of the world are more of a fairytale than yours. Go for it. I never said the religious can or will not develop morals on their own, I said they have them handed to them. By your standards the bible is just the original version of "chicken soup for the soul." While a great read that offers readers a chance step back and look at life from a different perspective, it is no better than any other holy book, just as no one religion is any different from the others. A person only needs one rule to live by in my opinion: Treat others as you would like them to treat you.CharlieD_{May 31, 2013
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Charlie @ 40 These discussions do get passionate, but that's way over the line. Clean it up, chief...Optimus_{May 31, 2013
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CharlieD:
Wow barb thats quite a stick youve got up your ass. Did I put it there? Im sorry about that.
Trolls annoy me. Funny how you provide absolutely no response, save insults, to anything anyone posts in response to you.
Anyways, like I said I dont get anything from atheist websites. Everything I talk about comes from my own experiences. I know both sides of the argument.
And your experiences, limited as they are, are meaningless. You put all religions into one large group (the logical fallacy of hasty generalization) and claim they are all fairy tales. Your stupidity is astonishing.
A world without morals would be terrible yes, and this is one of the upsides of religion; it promotes morals in those unable to acquire them for themselves. Some people dont need to be told how to live their lives and are perfectly capable of being a good person on their own, without the fear of hell.
If your pathetic excuse for an argument is that religious people cannot or will not develop morals on their own, then I pity you for your ignorance and stupidity. I truly do. First of all, not all religions teach the doctrine of hellfire; mine doesn’t. So my morals aren’t dependent on my being afraid of burning forever in hell. Look at JLAfan’s post again. Where do atheists get an absolute standard for morality?
Please explain why youre faith is better than the others you have studied and maybe give some reasons why there are milions of people on the planet that did the exact same thing you have and came to the exact same conclusion only it was about judaism, muslim, hinduism, etc.
I started with the Bible, the oldest religious book available. I did read other holy texts including the Tanakh and Koran. I talked with people of various faiths and asked them why they believed. I didn’t simply want my faith to be a matter of family tradition or a matter of geography. I felt that the principle of cause and effect would be beneficial in studying religion. The teachings or tenets of a person’s faith should influence the personality and daily conduct of the believer. I asked, “What effect does my religion have on me?” I also asked, “Does [insert religion here] produce a kinder person? A more generous, honest, humble, or tolerant person? “ The standard that Jesus set out at Matthew 7:17-20 was helpful; all religions, like trees, can be identified by their fruitage.Barb_{May 31, 2013
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Wow barb thats quite a stick youve got up your ass. Did I put it there? Im sorry about that. Anyways, like I said I dont get anything from atheist websites. Everything I talk about comes from my own experiences. I know both sides of the argument. A world without morals would be terrible yes, and this is one of the upsides of religion; it promotes morals in those unable to acquire them for themselves. Some people dont need to be told how to live their lives and are perfectly capable of being a good person on their own, without the fear of hell. Please explain why youre faith is better than the others you have studied and maybe give some reasons why there are milions of people on the planet that did the exact same thing you have and came to the exact same conclusion only it was about judaism, muslim, hinduism, etc.CharlieD_{May 31, 2013
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No, youre the one not listening. I told you, it is up to each individual to find meaning and purpose in their lives. Humans have the luxury of higher order thinking that other animals do not, it is up to us to think for ourselves and find what makes us happy. I didnt create something out of thin air, I grew up exploring the world around me, trying to find out what I enjoyed and I continue to do these things. You completely ignored what I said and are trying to make me look like someone who advocates that life has no purpose. I say find your own purpose and meaning.CharlieD_{May 31, 2013
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CharlieD:
Thats why youre Christian? Really? Those points from JLA speak to a specific religion? Why not bhuddism, judaism, muslim, etc? Oh thats right, its because you blindly accept what has been put before you by your church. Gotcha.
Making assumptions without knowing all the facts leads you to wrong conclusions. I am a Christian because after having studied the Bible—as well as the tenets of various faiths including Shintoism, Buddhism, and Judaism among others—I became convinced that Christianity is right. The points made by JLAfan2001 don’t speak to a specific faith but show what happens when (and where) there is no faith. Honestly, do you really want to live in a world without any moral guidelines? Where anyone can cheat, lie, or steal from you without consequence because, hey, who needs morals anyway? And I thought you were leaving because you didn’t like the unscientific tone here. Guess you’re nothing but a pathetic atheist troll.
And we all lived happily ever after… Religion just makes us all feel warm and fuzzy inside doesnt it? Its certainly great for you guys who cant face the harsh reality that is life, but whatever, keep living in your fairytale world. Enjoy!
Strawman. You know, if you’re going to try and prove any point here, you’re going to have to stop falling victim to logical fallacies. They make you look stupid.
Religion is a vehicle of ignorance. It hands out meaning and purpose instead of allowing people to find these things for themselves.
Tell that to Newton and Galileo.
Most cant handle the burden of free will though, and that is where religion steps in. Unfortunately, over the years religion has overstepped its boundaries and become a power-hungry institution that promotes stupidity and rewards blind faith. I realize religion is a necessary evil, but its negative aspects have begun to outweigh the positives.
The only thing you realize is whatever drivel you’ve picked up from atheist websites. Most Christians can handle the “burden” of free will quite nicely, thanks. And exactly where is your logic going, anyway? First you claim all religion is a fairy tale (strawman), then you claim there are positive aspects to it? Is it real and factual, or not? Make up your mind or stop copy/pasting from Richard Dawkins’ website. You are making no sense, and you look stupid.
Everything I say comes directly from my own experiences. I have seen both ends of the spectrum and am glad to have distanced myself from the blindness that is religion.
Everything you say appears to come directly from your posterior. Your experiences are meaningless. You obviously have no clue what the tenets of most faiths are, so please stop embarrassing yourself by claiming knowledge that you don’t have.
Evolution relies on and is therefore built on a collection of facts and observations from every field of biology. What relies on ignorance is this website. Ignorance of scientific literacy and knowledge in biology altogether.
Evolution relies on faith as much as religion does. It relies on evidence that can be interpreted different ways, depending on one’s worldview. The only thing ignorant on this site is you. You are a sad, pathetic little troll. And you fail miserably. You said you were leaving. Why are you still here?Barb_{May 31, 2013
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"Religion is a vehicle of ignorance. It hands out meaning and purpose instead of allowing people to find these things for themselves. Most cant handle the burden of free will though, and that is where religion steps in. Unfortunately, over the years religion has overstepped its boundaries and become a power-hungry institution that promotes stupidity and rewards blind faith. I realize religion is a necessary evil, but its negative aspects have begun to outweigh the positives." You're not listening. There is no purpose, meaning or free will in the universe. Ask your militant buds. They'll tell you. If you have found meaning and purpose, I would LOVE to see the scientific and empirical evidence for it. After all, you created something that doesn't exist out of thin air and we all know that extra-ordinary claims require extra-ordinary evidence. You demand the same thing for God so it's on;y fair that you produce some too. Why did you create meaning? Because it made you feel all warm and fuzzy inside so you can cope with the harness of reality? That's subjective just like religious experiences are. Chemicals in the brain. But, hey what ever keeps you in your fairytale world, right? Did you even choose your meaning or free will? Of course not. The atoms and neurons did, not you ,because you don't exist. You're an illusion, an animal, an accident and nothing more. The brain lies to you so you can't see it. I'm not saying God is real but quite going against theists for living in a delusion when you clearly live in one yourself. HYPOCRITE!!! I DARE YOU!!!! I DARE YOU!!!! to live your life without meaning, purpose, value, emotions, morals, truth and knowledge without making any of it up. If it doesn't exist then live as if it doesn't. Let's see how far you get, tough guy.JLAfan2001_{May 31, 2013
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Evolution relies on and is therefore built on a collection of facts and observations from every field of biology. What relies on ignorance is this website. Ignorance of scientific literacy and knowledge in biology altogether.CharlieD_{May 31, 2013
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CharlieD, Materialism and evolutionism rely on our ignorance. And it is only because of our ignorance do they survive.Joe_{May 31, 2013
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Never said it was the only source, but it is a huge source just as in its promotion of ignorance whether willful or not.CharlieD_{May 31, 2013
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Neil R:
Oops. I forgot to close a blockquote.
You forgot to enclose an argument.Mung_{May 31, 2013
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I have seen both ends of the spectrum and am glad to have distanced myself from the blindness that is religion.
As if the only place blindness is found is in religion. grow upMung_{May 31, 2013
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Everything I say comes directly from my own experiences. I have seen both ends of the spectrum and am glad to have distanced myself from the blindness that is religion.CharlieD_{May 31, 2013
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CD: Pardon, but from appearances you seem to want to make yourself into a poster child for churlishness. not advisable. Let's do a little test. kindly, cf. here on, and here on (NB: here), as well as here above -- which seems to have helped pushed your button. Then, come back with ten points that substantiate your accusations and dismissals above. KFkairosfocus_{May 31, 2013
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Religion is a vehicle of ignorance. It hands out meaning and purpose instead of allowing people to find these things for themselves. Most cant handle the burden of free will though, and that is where religion steps in. Unfortunately, over the years religion has overstepped its boundaries and become a power-hungry institution that promotes stupidity and rewards blind faith. I realize religion is a necessary evil, but its negative aspects have begun to outweigh the positives.CharlieD_{May 31, 2013
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I should add something regarding this:
Religion just makes us all feel warm and fuzzy inside doesnt it?
Occasionally. But as often as not, it makes one feel lowly, unworthy, full of guilt, in need of redemption. It serves to give people a (much needed) kick in the pants and reminds them that they can, and should, do much better. Many people adhere to religion, not because it makes them feel good, but because it helps them be good. I certainly understand, and have felt, the allure of reductionist materialism. I would enjoy living my life however I want, doing whatever I want, without a second thought for the consequences. However, such an approach is intellectually vacuous and is inconsistent with the facts that we see around us: facts that lead us to conclude that there is meaning and substance and importance and purpose to life.Eric Anderson_{May 31, 2013
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Moreover, the magnitude to which Leggett’s inequality was violated was staggering to learn about:
A team of physicists in Vienna has devised experiments that may answer one of the enduring riddles of science: Do we create the world just by looking at it? – 2008 Excerpt: This test was more stringent. In mid-2007 Fedrizzi found that the new realism model was violated by 80 orders of magnitude; the group was even more assured that quantum mechanics was correct. http://seedmagazine.com/content/article/the_reality_tests/P3/
Now, I really don’t completely understand what it truly means for materialistic "naïve realism" to violated by 80 orders of magnitude as to rigorously establishing the validity of Theism, but seeing that there are ‘only’ 10^80 orders of magnitude subatomic particles in the universe, that strongly suggests, at least to me, that they completely blew the ‘maths just is’ Deistic/Atheistic view of reality clean out of the water. (Perhaps someone else can help enlighten us what it means to have "naïve realism" to be violated by 80 orders of magnitude). Just how troubling this ‘should’ be for the committed Atheist/Deist is highlighted here:
Lecture 11: Decoherence and Hidden Variables – Scott Aaronson Excerpt: “Look, we all have fun ridiculing the creationists who think the world sprang into existence on October 23, 4004 BC at 9AM (presumably Babylonian time), with the fossils already in the ground, light from distant stars heading toward us, etc. But if we accept the usual picture of quantum mechanics, then in a certain sense the situation is far worse: the world (as you experience it) might as well not have existed 10^-43 seconds ago!” http://www.scottaaronson.com/democritus/lec11.html
As should be needless to say, such a reality speaks far more forcefully for a infinitely powerful ‘personal God’ than for any impersonal ‘maths just is’ Deistic God:
Psalm 33:13-15 The LORD looks from heaven; He sees all the sons of men. From the place of His dwelling He looks on all the inhabitants of the earth; He fashions their hearts individually; He considers all their works. God Can Be Personally Known and Experienced – Dr. Craig – video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWL5QhBQB30 Knowing God Personally and Intimately Excerpt: Can a person embark on a journey that leads to knowing God? The overwhelming claim of the Bible is yes! Not only can anyone of us know the Lord and the Creator of everything that exists, we are invited—even urged—each one of us, to know him intimately, personally and deeply. http://ldolphin.org/Eightfld.html
Verse and music:
John 8:47 Whoever belongs to God hears what God says.,,, Casting Crowns – Voice of Truth http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKnBcCdnXyg
bornagain77_{May 31, 2013
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Towards the end of the following video, Michael Denton speaks of the square root of negative 1 being necessary to understand the foundational quantum behavior of this universe. The square root of -1 is also 'coincidentally' found in Euler's formula:
Michael Denton – Mathematical Truths Are Transcendent And Beautiful – Square root of -1 is built into the fabric of reality – video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4003918"
further notes: in the equation e^pi*i + 1 = 0 ,,,we find that pi is required in;
General Relativity (Einstein’s Equation) https://docs.google.com/File?id=dc8z67wz_52c9nxpz2h_b
,,,and we also find that the square root of negative 1 is required in;
Quantum Mechanics (Schrödinger’s Equations) https://docs.google.com/File?id=dc8z67wz_51ck47zff3_b
,,and we also find that e is required for;
e is required here in wave equations, in finding the distribution of prime numbers, in electrical theory, and is also found to be foundational to trigonometry.,,,this number, e, also appears in banking, because it is the maximum limit for growth of compound interest.
I find it extremely strange that the enigmatic Euler's formula, which was deduced centuries ago, would find such striking correlation to how reality is actually found to be structured by modern science. In pi we have correlation to the 'sphere of the universe' as revealed by the Cosmic Background radiation, as well pi correlates to the finely-tuned 'geometric flatness' within the 'sphere of the universe' that has now been found. In 'e' we have the fundamental constant that is used for ascertaining exponential growth in math that strongly correlates to the fact that space-time is 'expanding/growing equally' in all places of the universe. In the square root of -1 we have what is termed a 'imaginary number', which was first proposed to help solve equations like x2+ 1 = 0 back in the 17th century, yet now it is found that the square root of -1 is required to explain the behavior of quantum mechanics in this universe. The correlation of Euler's identity, to the foundational characteristics of how this universe is constructed and operates, points overwhelmingly to a transcendent Intelligence, with a capital I, which created this universe! It should also be noted that these mathematical constants, pi,e, and square root -1, were at first thought by many to be completely transcendent of any material basis, to find that these transcendent constants of Euler's identity in fact 'govern' material reality, in such a foundational way, should be enough to send shivers down any mathematicians spine. But perhaps, Mr. Rickert, you may say that that correspondence of math to reality is not good enough for you Mr. Rickert to believe that math is not just a useful fiction we invented in our imagination, well we have another avenue to take that more directly connects our minds to how reality is found to be structured and operates: a philosopher asked Einstein:
“Can physics demonstrate the existence of ‘the now’ in order to make the notion of ‘now’ into a scientifically valid term?”
Einstein’s answer was categorical to the philosopher, he said:
“The experience of ‘the now’ cannot be turned into an object of physical measurement, it can never be a part of physics.” Quote was taken from the last few minutes of this following video: Stanley L. Jaki: “The Mind and Its Now” https://vimeo.com/10588094
The preceding statement was an interesting statement for Einstein to make since ‘the mind and its now’ has, from many recent experiments in quantum mechanics, undermined Einstein’s General Relativity as to being the absolute frame of reference for reality.,, it would now be much more appropriate to phrase Einstein’s answer to the philosopher in this way:
“It is impossible for the experience of ‘the now of mind’ to be divorced from physical measurement, it will always be a part of physics.”
Perhaps the best demonstration of this ‘now of the mind’ is Wheeler’s delayed choice experiment
Wheeler’s Classic Delayed Choice Experiment: Excerpt: Now, for many billions of years the photon is in transit in region 3. Yet we can choose (many billions of years later) which experimental set up to employ – the single wide-focus, or the two narrowly focused instruments. We have chosen whether to know which side of the galaxy the photon passed by (by choosing whether to use the two-telescope set up or not, which are the instruments that would give us the information about which side of the galaxy the photon passed). We have delayed this choice until a time long after the particles “have passed by one side of the galaxy, or the other side of the galaxy, or both sides of the galaxy,” so to speak. Yet, it seems paradoxically that our later choice of whether to obtain this information determines which side of the galaxy the light passed, so to speak, billions of years ago. So it seems that time has nothing to do with effects of quantum mechanics. And, indeed, the original thought experiment was not based on any analysis of how particles evolve and behave over time – it was based on the mathematics. This is what the mathematics predicted for a result, and this is exactly the result obtained in the laboratory. http://www.bottomlayer.com/bottom/basic_delayed_choice.htm “Thus one decides the photon shall have come by one route or by both routes after it has already done its travel” John A. Wheeler Alain Aspect speaks on John Wheeler’s Delayed Choice Experiment – video http://vimeo.com/38508798
Moreover it is found that,,
Wheeler’s Delayed Choice Experiment – 2010 Excerpt: The Delayed Choice experiment changes the boundary conditions of the Schrodinger equation after the particle enters the first beamsplitter. http://www.physics.drexel.edu/~bob/TermPapers/WheelerDelayed.pdf
But why should a abstract mathematical equation, which ‘just is’ according to Deistic or Atheistic thinking, even care when I decide to implement boundary conditions for it to look at a particle? Abstract mathematical equations do not and can not care about anything! Only God can care if and when I decide to look at any particular particle! To drive this point home as to just how ‘weird’ all this is, in that I can freely choose when a ‘boundary condition’ for a mathematical equation is implemented, here is a recent variation of the Wheeler delayed choice experiment. An experiment which highlights the ability of a conscious observer to directly effect ‘spooky action into the past’,,,
Quantum physics mimics spooky action into the past – April 23, 2012 Excerpt: The authors experimentally realized a “Gedankenexperiment” called “delayed-choice entanglement swapping”, formulated by Asher Peres in the year 2000. Two pairs of entangled photons are produced, and one photon from each pair is sent to a party called Victor. Of the two remaining photons, one photon is sent to the party Alice and one is sent to the party Bob. Victor can now choose between two kinds of measurements. If he decides to measure his two photons in a way such that they are forced to be in an entangled state, then also Alice’s and Bob’s photon pair becomes entangled. If Victor chooses to measure his particles individually, Alice’s and Bob’s photon pair ends up in a separable state. Modern quantum optics technology allowed the team to delay Victor’s choice and measurement with respect to the measurements which Alice and Bob perform on their photons. “We found that whether Alice’s and Bob’s photons are entangled and show quantum correlations or are separable and show classical correlations can be decided after they have been measured”, explains Xiao-song Ma, lead author of the study. According to the famous words of Albert Einstein, the effects of quantum entanglement appear as “spooky action at a distance”. The recent experiment has gone one remarkable step further. “Within a naïve classical world view, quantum mechanics can even mimic an influence of future actions on past events”, says Anton Zeilinger. http://phys.org/news/2012-04-quantum-physics-mimics-spooky-action.html
The preceding experiment completely blows Deistic and/or Atheistic ‘determinism’ out of the water for if my conscious choices really are just merely the result of whatever state the material particles in my brain happen to be in in the past (deterministic) then how in blue blazes are my present 'free will' choices in the experiment instantaneously effecting the state of material particles into the past??? But it gets much, much, much, worse for Deists and Atheists who think ‘maths just is a useful fiction’. Fairly recently it was found,,,
Quantum physics says goodbye to reality – Apr 20, 2007 Excerpt: They found that, just as in the realizations of Bell’s thought experiment, Leggett’s inequality is violated – thus stressing the quantum-mechanical assertion that reality does not exist when we’re not observing it. “Our study shows that ‘just’ giving up the concept of locality would not be enough to obtain a more complete description of quantum mechanics,” Aspelmeyer told Physics Web. “You would also have to give up certain intuitive features of realism.” http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/27640
bornagain77_{May 31, 2013
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Mr. Rickert, you make an interesting comment here:
For myself, I don’t take mathematical objects (such as numbers) to be metaphysical. I’m a fictionalist, so I take numbers to be useful fictions.
But alas, how 'miraculous', to borrow Eugene Wigner's infamous remark, have those 'useful fictions' turned out to be.
‘It is difficult to avoid the impression that a miracle confronts us here,’ - Wigner http://www.dartmouth.edu/~matc/MathDrama/reading/Wigner.html
Einstein finds it a 'miracle' here:
You find it strange that I consider the comprehensibility of the world (to the extent that we are authorized to speak of such a comprehensibility) as a miracle or as an eternal mystery. Well, a priori one should expect a chaotic world, which cannot be grasped by the mind in any way . . . . [T]he kind of order created by Newton’s theory of gravitation, for example, is wholly different. Even if man proposes the axioms of the theory, the success of such a project presupposes a high degree of ordering of the objective world, and this could not be expected a priori. That is the “miracle” which is being constantly reinforced as our knowledge expands. — Albert Einstein
Galileo was even more forthright here:
"Mathematics is the language with which God has written the universe." Galileo Galilei
Dr. Craig argues that the applicability of mathematics to physics is a very strong argument in favor of God here:
Mathematics and Physics – A Happy Coincidence? – William Lane Craig – video http://www.metacafe.com/w/9826382
And indeed, John 1:1 states,,,
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John 1:1
of note; 'the Word' is translated from the Greek word ‘Logos’. Logos happens to be the word from which we derive our modern word ‘Logic’. Cosmologist Alexander Vilenkin, who gave Hawking 'the worst birthday present ever' at Hawking's 70th birthday by delivering a paper at Hawking's Birthday party proving that the universe must have had an absolute beginning in the past, stated this:
“It appears that the Creator shares the mathematicians’ sense of beauty.” - Cosmologist Alexander Vilenkin http://rfforum.websitetoolbox.com/post?id=3754268
But what can deliver us from being merely armchair philosophers Mr. Rickert?? so as to validate that these 'useful mathematical fictions', as you term them are more than merely a 'happy coincidence' as Dr. Craig alluded to your position?? Well, there are a couple of avenues we can take Mr. Rickert to deliver us from being merely armchair philosophers and to find out if there is a 'real correspondence between our mind and the applicability of these useful fictions to the universe. One avenue is found in Euler's formula, which Alexander Vilenkin commented on 'the beauty' of, in which a very strong correspondence to the geometry of the universe and the mechanics of how the universe operates is found:
0 = 1 + e ^(i*pi) — Euler
Believe it or not, the five most important numbers in mathematics are tied together, through the complex domain in Euler's number, And that points, ever so subtly but strongly, to a world of reality beyond the immediately physical. Many people resist the implications, but there the compass needle points to a transcendent reality that governs our 3D 'physical' reality.
God by the Numbers - Connecting the constants Excerpt: The final number comes from theoretical mathematics. It is Euler's (pronounced "Oiler's") number: e^pi*i. This number is equal to -1, so when the formula is written e^pi*i+1 = 0, it connects the five most important constants in mathematics (e, pi, i, 0, and 1) along with three of the most important mathematical operations (addition, multiplication, and exponentiation). These five constants symbolize the four major branches of classical mathematics: arithmetic, represented by 1 and 0; algebra, by i; geometry, by pi; and analysis, by e, the base of the natural log. e^pi*i+1 = 0 has been called "the most famous of all formulas," because, as one textbook says, "It appeals equally to the mystic, the scientist, the philosopher, and the mathematician.",,, The discovery of this number gave mathematicians the same sense of delight and wonder that would come from the discovery that three broken pieces of pottery, each made in different countries, could be fitted together to make a perfect sphere. It seemed to argue that there was a plan where no plan should be.,,, http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2006/march/26.44.html?start=3
first off, Euler's formula (the most famous of all formulas), when plotted in 3D, 'coincidentally' results in the fundamental geometry of DNA: a helix!
Graph of Euler's Equation http://www.songho.ca/math/euler/euler.html
Moreover Euler’s Identity, rather than just being the most enigmatic equation in math, finds striking correlation to how our 3D reality is actually structured,,, The following picture, Bible verse, article, and videos are very interesting since, with the discovery of the Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation (CMBR), the universe is found to actually be a circular sphere which 'coincidentally' corresponds to the circle of pi within Euler's identity:
Planck satellite unveils the Universe -- now and then (w/ Video showing the mapping of the 'sphere' of the Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation with the satellite) - 2010 http://phys.org/news197534140.html#nRlv Proverbs 8:26-27 While as yet He had not made the earth or the fields, or the primeval dust of the world. When He prepared the heavens, I was there, when He drew a circle on the face of the deep,
The flatness of the ‘entire’ universe, which 'coincidentally' corresponds to the diameter of pi in Euler’s identity, is found on this following site; (of note this flatness of the universe is an extremely finely tuned condition for the universe that could have, in reality, been a multitude of different values than 'flat'):
Did the Universe Hyperinflate? – Hugh Ross – April 2010 Excerpt: Perfect geometric flatness is where the space-time surface of the universe exhibits zero curvature (see figure 3). Two meaningful measurements of the universe’s curvature parameter, ½k, exist. Analysis of the 5-year database from WMAP establishes that -0.0170 < ½k < 0.0068.4 Weak gravitational lensing of distant quasars by intervening galaxies places -0.031 < ½k < 0.009.5 Both measurements confirm the universe indeed manifests zero or very close to zero geometric curvature,,, http://www.reasons.org/did-universe-hyperinflate
This following video shows that the universe also has a primary characteristic of expanding/growing equally in all places, which 'coincidentally' strongly corresponds to the 'e' in Euler's identity. 'e' is the constant that is used in equations of math for finding what the true rates of growth and decay are for any given mathematical problem trying to find as such in this universe:
Centrality of Earth Within The 4-Dimensional Space-Time of General Relativity - video http://www.metacafe.com/w/8421879
This following video shows just how finely tuned the '4-Dimensional' expansion of the universe is (1 in 10^120);
Fine Tuning Of Dark Energy and Mass of the Universe - Hugh Ross - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4007682
Here are the verses in the Bible, which were written over 2000 years before the discovery of the finely tuned expansion of the universe by ‘Dark Energy’, that speak of God ‘Stretching out the Heavens’; Job 9:8; Isaiah 40:22; Isaiah 40:24; Isaiah 48:13; Zechariah 12:1; Psalm 104:2; Isaiah 42:5; Isaiah 45:12; Isaiah 51:13; Jeremiah 51:15; Jeremiah 10:12. The following verse is one of my favorites out of the group of verses:
Job 9:8 He alone stretches out the heavens and treads on the waves of the sea.
bornagain77_{May 31, 2013
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'Oh thats right, its because you blindly accept what has been put before you by your church. Gotcha.' Don't be dumb all your life Charlie, there's a good chap. Some of us rejected our childhood Christian belief/knowledge as adolescents, and came back to it via Eastern religions: the perennial philosophy, as set forth in Aldous Huxley's essay of that name. Others were given by their parents better support and mentoring in their faith/knowledge, as children, and it developed at least as surely.Axel_{May 31, 2013
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CharlieD @22: Frankly, I don't delve much into religion as it relates to ID, but your assertion that religious folks are just there because they can't face the harsh reality of life is way off base. In contrast, I suppose, to people like you who think they bravely look reality in the face and acknowledge that their life, and indeed all existence, is completely pointless -- ironically making such bravery itself pointless. Right. Then, of course, there is the other reality of life: learning, growing, love, friendships, amazing examples of sacrifice, beauty, and caring. Such aspects are just as much a reality of life as other aspects. That is unless one is committed -- not on the basis of facts but on the basis of some a priori philosophical commitment -- to the meaninglessness of life, a la Dawkins, Provine and Company. The ironic fact that is evident for anyone to see is that even such individuals don't live their lives in accordance with their hopeless doctrine. They live their lives as though there is meaning, as though what they do does make a difference, as though their relationships do matter.Eric Anderson_{May 31, 2013
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And we all lived happily ever after... Religion just makes us all feel warm and fuzzy inside doesnt it? Its certainly great for you guys who cant face the harsh reality that is life, but whatever, keep living in your fairytale world. Enjoy!CharlieD_{May 31, 2013
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