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BarryA Responds to DaveScot

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In Bass Ackwards Darwinism (below) my friend DaveScott writes:

 “Good people do good things.  Evil people do evil things.  Knowledge (like Darwinian evolution and the recipe for dynamite) is inanimate and can be employed by good people for good things and evil people for evil things.”

The issue is not whether “good” people do good things.  Of course they do.  That’s why we call them “good.”  The issue is not whether “evil” people do evil things.  Again, of course they do.  That’s why we call them “evil.”  The issue is what do we mean when we say “good” and “evil.”  From the answer to that question everything else about our ethics follows.

Some people (mainly theists of various stripes) say “good” means that which conforms to a moral standard that transcends place, time, opinion, personality, social constructs and everything else, and “evil” means that which does not conform to that transcendent standard.  I will call these people transcendent standard advocates or TSA’s for short.

Other people say no such transcendent standard exists.  I will call these people materialists. 

Now here is the crux of the matter.  TSAs may be wrong.  There may not be a transcendant moral standard after all, and the appearance of such a standard (what C.S. Lewis calls the “Tao” in the Abolition of Man) may be an illusion.  But at least they can give a rational account for the basis of their morality, i.e., the transcendent standard exists.  All of our moral choices are either consistent with that standard or inconsistent with that standard.  We can argue about the exact parameters of the standard.  There will be gray areas.  But to say that some areas are gray is very different from saying everything is gray. 

On the other hand, after centuries of striving materialists have failed to provide a rational account for morality.  Indeed, thoughtful and courageous materialists (I’m thinking of Frederic Nietzsche and Will Provine) have argued that the premises of materialism absolutely preclude a conclusion that ethics or morality have any firm foundation.

Turning back to DaveScott’s post, he says that he does “good” because he intuitively understands and abides by the golden rule.  In other words, Dave bases his morality on his intuition.   

Here is the problem with this formulation in classical terms:  What is the Good?  Dave and the TSAs agree that the Good is that which is desirable.  So far so good (so to speak).  But the more important question is “what is the desirable?”  Dave believes the desirable is that which he actually desires based on his intuition about the golden rule.  TSAs believe the desirable is that which Dave OUGHT to desire.   If, as is the case with Dave, what is actually desired corresponds with what ought to be desired, there is no problem.

The problem for Dave’s philosophy is what happens when someone has a disordered desire.  What if this person (let’s call him Bob) desires to have sex with little children.  Dave will say to him “I have a strong intuition that sex with little children is profoundly wrong.”  Bob will reply, “Why should I care what your intuition tells you?  If I can get away with an activity that gives me pleasure, why should I restrain myself?  Surely you are not suggesting your intuition, i..e, your opinion, is in any way binding on me.”

Dave might reply, “But Bob, it is plain that you ought not have sex with little children.”  Now, if Dave means by “ought” that he has a strong intuition that sex with little children is wrong because it violates the golden rule, he has done no more than repeat himself using different terms.  He has not answered Bob’s objection.  On the other hand, if Dave means by “ought” that sex with little children breaks an obvious moral standard that transcends his and Bob’s opinion, he has not acted logically given his premise that no such standard exists.

At the end of the day, Dave can appeal to a standard that transcends his intuition or he can appeal to his intuition.  If he does the former, he has implicitly admitted the TSA premise.  If he does the latter, he has given Bob no rational reason for refraining from his activity.  Dave has only said, “I do not agree with it.”

What does this have to do with Darwin?  Darwin’s theory does not compel belief in materialism any more than ID compels a belief in God.  But many people believed (especially in late 19th century Europe and North America) that Darwin’s theory was evidence of the triumph of materialist science over the superstition of religion.  This had a profound impact on our social institutions. 

In most of the recent posts this impact has been explored in the context of the holocaust.  I will not add to that debate.  Instead, I will give an example from my own field of the law.   As I have written before, it is not an overstatement to say that the modern era of American law began with the publication in 1897 of “The Path of the Law” by Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr.   In this seminal work Holmes announced that it was time to jettison the notion that the law has anything to do with morality, because morality has no meaning.  Holmes wrote, “For my own part, I often doubt whether it would not be a gain if every word of moral significance could be banished from the law altogether, and other words adopted which should convey legal ideas uncolored by anything outside the law.”

With “The Path of the Law” Holmes had founded the school of “legal realism,” and this theory gradually came to be the predominate theory of jurisprudence in the United States.  “Legal realism” should more properly be called “legal materialism” because Holmes denied the existence of any objective “principles of ethics or admitted axioms” to guide judges’ rulings.  In other words, the law is not based upon principles of justice that transcend time and place.  The law is nothing more than what willful judges do, and the “rules” they use to justify their decision are tagged on after they have decided the case according to their personal preferences.  At its bottom legal realism is a denial of the objective existence of a foundation of moral norms upon which a structure of justice can be built.

Why would Holmes deny the objective existence of morality?  This is where the influence of Darwin comes in.  It is one of the darker secrets of our nation’s past that Holmes, perhaps the most venerated of all our Supreme Court justices, was a fanatical — I used that word advisedly — Darwinist who advocated eugenics and the killing of disabled babies. I n Buck v. Bell Holmes wrote “It is better for all the world, if instead of waiting to execute degenerate offspring for crime or to let them starve for their imbecility, society can prevent those who are manifestly unfit from continuing their kind . . . Three generations of imbeciles are enough.” As Phillip Johnson has written, Holmes was a “convinced Darwinist who profoundly understood the philosophical implications of Darwinism.”

“The Origin of Species” was published in 1859.  By 1897, when Holmes wrote “The Path of the Law,” Darwinism had had become an unchallengeable scientific orthodoxy accepted as a matter of course by practically all intellectuals. Holmes thought he had no choice but to believe Darwinism and to accept uncritically the philosophical materialism that most people of this time believed followed inexorably from Darwin’s ideas, and his great contribution to American law was to reconcile the philosophy of law with the philosophy of materialism.

Once they were unleashed from any duty to actually apply objective “rules of law,”  judges soon found they could impose their political views on the rest of us under the guise of interpreting the United States Constitution.  The federal judiciary’s long march through our laws, traditions and institutions began slowly in the 1930’ss but rapidly gathered momentum until, in 1973 in the most stunning example of judicial willfulness in our nation’s history, the Supreme Court invalidated the abortion laws of all 50 states.

So you see legal realism was built step by step, precept by precept, upon a foundation of philosophical materialism that in turn rests upon the triumph of Darwin for its acceptance. And upon this foundation was built a superstructure of judicial willfulness that resulted ultimately in Roe v. Wade.  Each link in the causal chain is plain to see for anyone who takes the time to look.

Obviously, I take for granted that abortion — the taking of an innocent human life — is immoral.  In the discussion thread I will not debate this topic, as it is beyond the scope of UD.  I will just say this:  If you believe an unborn baby is not human you are ignorant.  If you believe that taking that baby’s life is not immoral, you are deeply confused morally.

Comments
Jack Krebs: OK you win. I will take a leave of absence from the current thread and repeat the question. What is your metaphysical (materialism, dualism etc.) position and what is your stance on abortion (pro-choice, pro-life)?StephenB
May 8, 2008
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A denial of self-evident truths or first truths is a denial of rationality itself. What is the basis of rationality? Logic absolutes. Logical absolutes exist therefore rationality exists. But if logical absolutes exist they too are transcendent for logic is not an attribute of matter or energy in any combination. It is an attribute of mind only. Rocks are not logical. Atoms are not logical. They are as they are. I'm a bit amazed that this is not obvious. However, in the post-modern context where people have been long brain-washed into believing there are no absolutes it is understandable. All the arguments against what Barry has said here are nothing more, in their assumptions and implications, than a denial of absolutes. To deny the existence of absolutes - logical or moral - requires intrinsic contradiction with reality. For, one must be absolutely sure there are no absolutes. Iow, denial of self-evident or first truths is a form of willful insanity (denial of reality). Those who deny them assume them in their very denial. No argument on any subject is possible without absolutes, as I state often here.Borne
May 8, 2008
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Jack Krebs, Thanks for the great discussion Jack, and yes, it was Dostoyevsky, which I remembered soon after I pressed “submit.” Story of my life...
He [the soldier] is free to choose, and he may think what he does is “good,” but I will not only strenuously disagree, I will also do what I can to get society as a whole to agree with me - agree with me enough to do something about it in terms of punishment and prevention.
Imagine attempting to reason with such a soldier: as you strenuously disagree, would you expect that he SHOULD see it your way, that he should recognize that his actions are reprehensible, and that he should choose another course? Furthermore, if the discussion grew to a wider audience would you have the same expectations of anyone who might become involved? Seems to me you have two basic options: (1) Appeal to a standard that is shared by both of you, that is known by the soldier as well as you, but that for whatever reason, he is choosing not to follow. This standard, which you yourself seem to at least recognize (in selecting Option 1)* is independent of time, culture and circumstance—ie, a transcendent standard. (2) Appeal to something non-transcendent—something rooted in time, culture and circumstance like political power, personal pursuasiveness or idiosyncratic opinion. If you make a #2-style appeal, what's to keep the soldier from asking (legitimately, IMO), “Why should I give a damn about your opinion? I make moral choices based on a conglomeration of things that make up my nature, but ultimately I choose, period, without recourse to transcendent standards...” "I choose, period. You choose, I choose, and I choose to continue. To hell with your standard." How do you answer the soldier? -Steve (not Stephen) B (only my mother and great aunt still call me Stephen… ;-) *Yes, this was my choice too. See, we do have common ground ;-), and thus, while I agree with much of Barry’s line of reasoning, we part company on this point. Our shared humanity guarantees at least some amount of common ground upon which to have these discussions. Thanks again, -sb.SteveB
May 8, 2008
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Actually, I take back the question I asked Barry. The reason is that the subject of this thread is not whether a particular action is good or not, but rather the claim that one can only know what is good if one believes in transcendent moral standards. That is the proposition that I am arguing against. I am making two points: 1. You can't know whether transcendent moral standards exist. The argument that they are self-evident and are just "known in the heart" doesn't work. 2. One doesn't have to believe in transcendent moral standards to have moral standards. I've made quite a few statements in defense of these two points in the above posts. I've also asked a question that I think highlights the problem: how does one who believes in the transcendent truth "thou shall not kill" handle the current wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and the killing and maiming of thousands of non-combatant civilians (including babies) therein. I say those wars are immoral.Jack Krebs
May 8, 2008
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Two quick comments: 1. I have not descended into a mass of confusion or absurdity. 2. I'd be glad to have further discussion here. A question to Barry: why not start a thread called "Is killing civilians in war ever good?"Jack Krebs
May 8, 2008
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Pardon BarryA: This thread aptly -- and, ever so sadly -- illustrates the precise point of self-evidence in truth claims, general or moral. Namely, the price one pays for rejecting self-evident truth is that one descends inot a morass of absurdity and confusion, tot he point where one cannot accept the obvious. One may indeed choose to be absurd, but that absurdity itself is the strongest evidence that the Tao is as advertised; self-evidently true. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
May 8, 2008
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Please post further comments on this topic under my new post "Is Murdering Babies Ever Good?"BarryA
May 7, 2008
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I am gaveling the Old Testament discussion. It is a distraction.BarryA
May 7, 2008
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mike1962: "Was any transcendent morality violated when Yahweh orderded Israel to kill all the Midianite woman and children?" Apparently, the Midianites were not exterminated as they re-appear years later as a major force to contend with (e.g., book of Judges). One interpretation, if I am not mistaken, is their having a connection with the Nephilim since these also re-appear in the post-flood record even though they were supposedly extinguished during the flood, which has all the indications of a supernatural origin. The Nephilim, according to tradition and the pseudoepigraphical book of Enoch, were these freaks-of-nature born out of the unnatural union between angels and women, spirits toying with human DNA if you will. Jewish sacred writings do not present the Nephilim under favorable light. The book of Enoch gives a glimpse as to why. In almost all the cases where Yahweh calls for the extermination of a group of people, somehow the Nephilim were involved. For one, during Moses' time, the Israelites began to mingle with the Midianites and eventually commit the same kinds of sins that Amalekites, and the Moabites and all the other "ites" were known for, continuing all the way to the times of the Judges, when the Israelites saw themselves struggling to survive against a now more powerful and determined agressor who wanted to wipe them off the face of the planet. I guess what I am trying to say is, since we are dealing with phisophical and theological subjects, that there could be no such thing as a transcendant being violating a "transcendant morality." If the God of the Bible is a being who exists outside space and time, I guess he is in a far better position to see things that may not be so clear to those of us who are in the outside trying to look in (if that makes any sense). If you recall, a prophecy was given to Adamas in the book of Genesis about how the serpent will try to destroy the seed: "From now on you and the woman will be enemies, as will your offspring and hers. You will strike his heel, but he will crush your head" Gen 3:15 (TLB) This has been an ongoing battle from the Garden all the way to Sinai up to Golgotha: how the serpent has tried in vain to annihilate the Promise. It was through the seed of Abraham that this promise was to be fulfilled. And all we see in the intervening pages of the Pentateuch is the enemy trying to obliterate any chances of that happening. Hence, the measures that were taken by a transcendant being who saw the calculable future.JPCollado
May 7, 2008
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jack krebs @ 103:
What I am saying is that I would do my best to both forthrightly state and take a stand for my moral position and also try to persuade others to join me. That’s all I, or anyone, can do. I’m not claiming that I have some special insight into the Truth, or that I have some special right to claim what “ought” to be the case. But I can take a stand and do all that I can to get others to take a stand with me.
Yes, I understand you're not claiming some special insight insight or right. However you do hope to persuade others to agree with you. On what basis should the soldier realize he has been immoral and agree with you? On what basis should I agree with you? With what moral standard do you hope to persuade others to your point of view?Charles
May 7, 2008
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And at allanius, who writes, "Does this mean you accept that life has value? If so, then you have simply proven the point of the original post." No. One can value life without there being a transcendent reality. Being alive is a really wonderful thing - it's incredibly neat and challenging and full of satisfactions on all levels, and I treasure my opportunity. Likewise, as I have grown I have extended my sense of self to include a connectedness to all human beings, and I now choose (and have for many years) to also value their lives. I have no idea whether a transcendent reality exists or not, but I don't see that as affecting the issue of whether I value life or not.Jack Krebs
May 7, 2008
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to Charles: You write,
Assuming, hypothetically, all the relevant facts can be established and are stipulated by all, on what basis should everyone agree with you in terms of punishment and prevention? What self-evident moral standard do you assert such that, assuming the facts are uncontested, any consequences and judgements on others ought to be as you propose? Why should your standard (whatever that is) be adopted by everyone? Why should no one dispute the applicability of your moral standard? Why should your moral standard be universally agreed?
You are misinterpreting what I said. I don't believe in self-evident transcendent moral standards, so I am obviously not claiming that such apply here. What I am saying is that I would do my best to both forthrightly state and take a stand for my moral position and also try to persuade others to join me. That's all I, or anyone, can do. I'm not claiming that I have some special insight into the Truth, or that I have some special right to claim what "ought" to be the case. But I can take a stand and do all that I can to get others to take a stand with me.Jack Krebs
May 7, 2008
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Jack, Jack; I used to reach up and shake the sides of my crib when I dealt with such problems. Your seeming conundrum is based on the value of life: it is wrong to kill (presumably). Does this mean you accept that life has value? If so, then you have simply proven the point of the original post. If not, then you have also proven the point of the original post. (Now, don't disappoint me...)allanius
May 7, 2008
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to Vivid: If my question was a diversion, was BarryA's question about the soldier in the Brother Karamazov also a diversion? Barry was asking me about the issue of making moral choices in the absence of a belief in transcendent moral standards by bringing up a fictional situation, and I changed the situation to a real one so as to make the discussion more relevant and meaningful. I also stated where I stand, and am now asking those of you in belief in transcendent moral standards to tell me what you think. Your answer, Vivid, is interesting: you believe that there is a transcendent moral position on these wars, and presumably on the individual acts of killing that go on in them, but that we can't know it and might be wrong. Obviously, therefore, you don't believe that in this case the relevant moral standard is self-evident. Also, you don't address the issue that the commandment "thou shalt not kill" is being violated here. That's a pretty major transcendent moral standard for those who believe in such things. Can you even give an outline of a rationale that invokes other transcendent standards that might explain why the killing going on in those wars might be morally justified? Also, you write,
Jack why do I think you are one of those people who want to save the whales and allow the abortion of fetuses (babies)?
I'm going to take that as a real question, rather than as a snide rhetorical question, which is the what I think you intended. I think you think that I am "one of those people who want to save the whales and allow the abortion of fetuses (babies)" because you are responding to your stereotypes about what kind of person you think I am based on what you know about my beliefs about science and metaphysics. In fact, you know nothing about my position on abortion or on whales. I suggest you stick with discussion of the issues and leave your personal prejudices about me out of it.Jack Krebs
May 7, 2008
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Jack Krebs @ 96:
He is free to choose, and he may think what he does is “good,” but I will not only strenuously disagree, I will also do what I can to get society as a whole to agree with me - agree with me enough to do something about it in terms of punishment and prevention.
Assuming, hypothetically, all the relevant facts can be established and are stipulated by all, on what basis should everyone agree with you in terms of punishment and prevention? What self-evident moral standard do you assert such that, assuming the facts are uncontested, any consequences and judgements on others ought to be as you propose? Why should your standard (whatever that is) be adopted by everyone? Why should no one dispute the applicability of your moral standard? Why should your moral standard be universally agreed? Why should it be self-evident to the soldier that he is "guilty" (regardless of his having being free to choose)?Charles
May 7, 2008
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"Are those of you who believe in this commandment as a transcendent truth opponents of war? - especially our currents one? If not, why not. If not, what “transcendent truth” allows you to support the killing of thousands in our current wars. Are you part of the those who think those wars are a moral outrage, or not?" Jack why do I think you are one of those people who want to save the whales and allow the abortion of fetuses (babies)? Regarding your question about the war you are missing the point. Those that argue for an absolute standard know that there actually is a correct stance regarding the morality or lack of morality of this war. What our views regarding this war does not change that. Those that support the war may be wrong and vice versa so your question is really just a diversion. BTW define "knowable" please. Vividvividblue
May 7, 2008
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to StephenB, who asks. "I take it, then, that you reject the principle of “natural rights,” which are based on the natural moral law." I've made it clear that I don't think we can know whether there are transcendent moral standards, and I certainly don't think that the existence of such is "self-evident." I assume in the question above you are using "natural" to mean transcendent, in which case I've already answered that question. What is your answer to the question I have asked: are our current wars morally justified by some self-evident transcendent truth? If so, what truth, and how does it override the commandment that "thou shalt not kill?"Jack Krebs
May 7, 2008
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BarryA: Are you suggesting that it is possible for you to choose moral standards in which it is good for the soldier to kill the baby? Was any transcendent morality violated when Yahweh orderded Israel to kill all the Midianite woman and children?mike1962
May 7, 2008
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BarryA writes,
Even more interesting. One final question. You say “I could not choose . . .” OK. But what about our soldier? Is he free to choose moral standards just like you, including moral standards in which baby killing is good?
He is free to choose, and he may think what he does is "good," but I will not only strenuously disagree, I will also do what I can to get society as a whole to agree with me - agree with me enough to do something about it in terms of punishment and prevention. Let's get more realistic. I am close to being a pacifist when it comes to war: I believe very strongly that it is wrong to cause deliberate pain, suffering and death to others, including non-combantant civilians. I can imagine a war that I would support (such as WW II), but I don't think any of the wars we've fought since then qualify. Now I know there are people, many of them and probably some of you, that support the current wars that are maiming and killing countless thousands in Iraq and Afghanistan. Such people are free to support that killing, and to create reasons why they think that is, on balance, the right thing to do, but I think they are quite wrong. I strongly support the admonition that "thou shalt not kill" even though I don't believe it is a transcendent truth handed down by God. Are those of you who believe in this commandment as a transcendent truth opponents of war? - especially our currents one? If not, why not. If not, what "transcendent truth" allows you to support the killing of thousands in our current wars. Are you part of the those who think those wars are a moral outrage, or not?Jack Krebs
May 7, 2008
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-----"And yes, I see there is no common ground here because Barry, StephenB and others believe that it is self-evident that it is self-evident that … and so on that transcendental moral standards exist, and I don’t think that is self-evdient at all." I take it, then, that you reject the principle of "natural rights," which are based on the natural moral law.StephenB
May 7, 2008
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Jack Krebs writes: "I could not choose moral standards that would make it 'good' for the soldier to kill the baby." Even more interesting. One final question. You say "I could not choose . . ." OK. But what about our soldier? Is he free to choose moral standards just like you, including moral standards in which baby killing is good?BarryA
May 7, 2008
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Maybe I should rephrase and ask, "Can the ethics of materialism produce someone like an Olson or a Helen Roseveare or...?JPCollado
May 7, 2008
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Does the Darwinian religion have a Bruce Olson equivalent?JPCollado
May 7, 2008
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Oops - got my Steve's and Stephen's confused. My bad. And no, my approach is not nihilistic - the absence of transcendental standards does not lead to or leave one with nihilism. And no to Barry's question - I could not choose moral standards that would make it "good" for the soldier to kill the baby. And yes, I see there is no common ground here because Barry, StephenB and others believe that it is self-evident that it is self-evident that ... and so on that transcendental moral standards exist, and I don't think that is self-evdient at all. And my mentioning of a major point of existentialism involving the important role of choice did not mean that I want to offer the offer the overall philosophy of Sartre or Camus as my position. For what it's worth, I'll mention that, as a high school teachers, one of the main things I do, aside from actually teaching math, is to help kids grow up well by helping them develop character. There are a whole bunch of morals and values I have, and work to develop in others, that I'm sure we all share. Just because I don't believe in transcendent morals doesn't mean that I don't believe in a common, universal ground for human morality. I am a strong believer in, and supporter of, the need for people to engage the world morally, and I believe that when people do engage the world morally, a certain commonality arises even though cultural and individual differences will still exist. But I don't think that a transcendent reality is necessary to explain that commonality. In fact, I think that if you TSA's were to somehow drop your belief in a transcendent reality this minute, your moral behavior would not change a bit. In my opinion, your belief in a transcendent reality and the logical explanations you have built to defend it are philosophical overlays on top of your moral nature, arising after the fact and not before it, adding a false sense of certainty.Jack Krebs
May 7, 2008
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Jack Krebs, Your appeal is nihilistic. The next time someone does something you think wrong you will tell yourself that you don't believe it is a problem, but you know it is a problem. However you argue, BarryA is quite correct; there is no common ground, which is precisely the problem. You are appealing to something that apparently doesn't exist and you argue your point as if it does. Your comments remind me of the late Richard Rorty's views of literary deconstruction. He denied value to the very books he'd written, at least from his own point of view as a writer. Postmodernists swooned all over him by admitting this. But I cannot believe he meant it. Why write the books? He actually had no intent? Did he have intent in anything in his life, including his diatribes against religious people and his appeal to his fellow academics: Rorty argued that secular professors in the universities ought “to arrange things so that students who enter as bigoted, homophobic religious fundamentalists will leave college with views more like our own.” He also noted that students are fortunate to find themselves under the control “of people like me, and to have escaped the grip of their frightening, vicious, dangerous parents.” Indeed, parents who send their children to college should recognize that as professors “we are going to go right on trying to discredit you in the eyes of your children, trying to strip your fundamentalist religious community of dignity, trying to make your views seem silly rather than discussable.” I wonder if he meant for that to be understood as he said it. I'm afraid the appeal of Existentialism is a dead end also. The existentialist simply cannot live the way he says he believes. Sartre failed as an existentialist as soon as he pronounced "should" at the end of his life for being too interested in sex and making moral-political statements about what is right and wrong in this and that government. How did he come up with that? Indeed, you do choose your standards for yourself. But you choose standards for others also. And when you do, you simply end up at the same well looking for water. You used the word "must" in your last paragraph and then followed it with a litany of constructs for acquiring values and standards. So, to what, or to whom, are appealing to here? How did you reach the conclusion "that all humans must" do something that you alone may think is rational?toc
May 7, 2008
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Jack Krebs writes: "I choose my moral standards." Jack, this is an interesting statement. Are you suggesting that it is possible for you to choose moral standards in which it is good for the soldier to kill the baby?BarryA
May 7, 2008
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-----Jack Krebs: "to Stephen: It’s Dostoevsky in The Brothers Karamozov, I believe, and it’s wrong, period, - option 1." While my namesake SteveB does me proud, I must acknowledge that we are not the same person. Since his argument has a slightly different texture than mine, I will let mine rest for a while and allow his to develop.StephenB
May 7, 2008
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to Stephen: It's Dostoevsky in The Brothers Karamozov, I believe, and it's wrong, period, - option 1. I imagine you agree. However, 1. I don't think you can justify your answer in any different way than I can. As I've repeatedly said, your belief that there is some transcendent moral standard that justifies your answer is not relevant because you don't really know that such transcendental morals exist. 2. And I'm sure I can't justify my answer to your satisfaction, either, because to you justification fails if it doesn't reference some transcendental moral standard. Interestingly enough, it was reading The Brothers Karamozov in high school that was part of getting me interested in existentialism: we make moral choices based on a conglomeration of things that make up our nature, but ultimately we choose, period, without recourse to transcendent standards. We are condemned to be free (said Camus or Sartre or someone like that.) I choose my moral standards. I do my best to pay attention to what others say on the matter, I pay attention to the expression of my inner nature, and I balance, as all humans must, a hierarchy of human components, from basic physiological needs to the most abstract and non-ego bound concepts: but ultimately I choose, and so do you. We're in the same boat in that regard.Jack Krebs
May 7, 2008
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Dreamwalker007 writes: “but how can you know that what people say about this standard is good?” You speak as if we are writing on a tabula rasa (i.e., blank slate). We are not. The Tao is not secret knowledge. Indeed, I have argued all along that the basic propositions of the Tao are known by all. The precepts of the Tao are “what you can’t not know,” as Dr. J. Budziszewski. Dreamwalker007 continues: “Heck, I could write out a list of commandments, say they were from god, and how would you be able to argue with me?” Not true. The unspoken premise of your statement is that the Tao is arbitrary, that it is only one moral system among many possible moral systems. It is not. To use Lewis’ example, try to think of a moral code in which murder is admired and rape applauded. It is literally unthinkable. Dreamwalker007 continues: “How could the only thing making murder wrong be that it just happened to be against the ‘transcendent standard’?” Murder does not “just happen” to be against the Tao. Once again, you are assuming the Tao is arbitrary. It is not. The proscription on murder is part of the very fabric of the universe in which we exist. Dreamwalker now blithers: “I’ll agree that it’s much easier to get people to follow a moral code if you get to claim it’s an order from god/the supernatural.” I never claimed the Tao was an order from God or DaveScott’s “bearded thunderer.” I simply claim the Tao exists, and you have provided no argument to refute that claim. The source of the Tao is a separate question. Dreamwalker says: “But ultimately, you need to justify WHY things are good and bad.” ARRRRRG! Have you listened to nothing that has been said? The Tao does NOT need to be justified. The Tao is self-evident and therefore self-justifying. You cannot go behind the Tao. Lewis again: “If nothing is self-evident, nothing can be proved. Similarly if nothing is obligatory for its own sake, nothing is obligatory at all.” Dreamwalker concludes: “Ultimately it comes down to whether certain actions affect people positively or negatively.” Sigh. The phrase “whether certain actions affect people positively or negatively” is just another way of saying “whether certain actions are good or bad,” which takes us right back to the beginning. It is not a helpful question.BarryA
May 7, 2008
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My post from this morning appears to be stuck in the filter. Trying again with apologies for the double posting... Jack Krebs, You seem to be asking your questions as if the TSAs have an obligation to produce a treatise on epistemology for your considered review while you have the freedom to sit on the sidelines and ask academic questions—as if you’re not obligated to engage with moral issues personally. Sorry, but it doesn’t work that way. We’re all in the game and as such the “written in the heart” answer that some have proposed is still better than your non-answer. So, I’d like to propose that we approach your questions from the following practical situation. One of the Russian novelists (I forget which one) tells the story about a soldier who wrenches a baby from his screaming mother’s arms, tosses him into the air, and then catches the child on his bayonet as she looks on. Is this event: 1. Wrong, period. Regardless of time, place, culture, reason or any other extenuating circumstance you care to name (i.e., it reflects a transcendent moral value) 2. Wrong “for the mother” but right “for the soldier” (the “wrong for you but right for me” argument is very much in vogue on college campuses these days) 3. The soldier’s actions “make me uncomfortable” but I can’t say that he’s wrong (variation on #2) 4. Not possible to evaluate because we can’t know if morals are transcendent or not. 5. Traditional morality is without grounding because it’s just an adaptation. (EO Wilson’s view) 6. Other. I know what my answer is. Please provide yours and justify how you know which is correct.SteveB
May 7, 2008
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