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BarryA Responds to DaveScot

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In Bass Ackwards Darwinism (below) my friend DaveScott writes:

 “Good people do good things.  Evil people do evil things.  Knowledge (like Darwinian evolution and the recipe for dynamite) is inanimate and can be employed by good people for good things and evil people for evil things.”

The issue is not whether “good” people do good things.  Of course they do.  That’s why we call them “good.”  The issue is not whether “evil” people do evil things.  Again, of course they do.  That’s why we call them “evil.”  The issue is what do we mean when we say “good” and “evil.”  From the answer to that question everything else about our ethics follows.

Some people (mainly theists of various stripes) say “good” means that which conforms to a moral standard that transcends place, time, opinion, personality, social constructs and everything else, and “evil” means that which does not conform to that transcendent standard.  I will call these people transcendent standard advocates or TSA’s for short.

Other people say no such transcendent standard exists.  I will call these people materialists. 

Now here is the crux of the matter.  TSAs may be wrong.  There may not be a transcendant moral standard after all, and the appearance of such a standard (what C.S. Lewis calls the “Tao” in the Abolition of Man) may be an illusion.  But at least they can give a rational account for the basis of their morality, i.e., the transcendent standard exists.  All of our moral choices are either consistent with that standard or inconsistent with that standard.  We can argue about the exact parameters of the standard.  There will be gray areas.  But to say that some areas are gray is very different from saying everything is gray. 

On the other hand, after centuries of striving materialists have failed to provide a rational account for morality.  Indeed, thoughtful and courageous materialists (I’m thinking of Frederic Nietzsche and Will Provine) have argued that the premises of materialism absolutely preclude a conclusion that ethics or morality have any firm foundation.

Turning back to DaveScott’s post, he says that he does “good” because he intuitively understands and abides by the golden rule.  In other words, Dave bases his morality on his intuition.   

Here is the problem with this formulation in classical terms:  What is the Good?  Dave and the TSAs agree that the Good is that which is desirable.  So far so good (so to speak).  But the more important question is “what is the desirable?”  Dave believes the desirable is that which he actually desires based on his intuition about the golden rule.  TSAs believe the desirable is that which Dave OUGHT to desire.   If, as is the case with Dave, what is actually desired corresponds with what ought to be desired, there is no problem.

The problem for Dave’s philosophy is what happens when someone has a disordered desire.  What if this person (let’s call him Bob) desires to have sex with little children.  Dave will say to him “I have a strong intuition that sex with little children is profoundly wrong.”  Bob will reply, “Why should I care what your intuition tells you?  If I can get away with an activity that gives me pleasure, why should I restrain myself?  Surely you are not suggesting your intuition, i..e, your opinion, is in any way binding on me.”

Dave might reply, “But Bob, it is plain that you ought not have sex with little children.”  Now, if Dave means by “ought” that he has a strong intuition that sex with little children is wrong because it violates the golden rule, he has done no more than repeat himself using different terms.  He has not answered Bob’s objection.  On the other hand, if Dave means by “ought” that sex with little children breaks an obvious moral standard that transcends his and Bob’s opinion, he has not acted logically given his premise that no such standard exists.

At the end of the day, Dave can appeal to a standard that transcends his intuition or he can appeal to his intuition.  If he does the former, he has implicitly admitted the TSA premise.  If he does the latter, he has given Bob no rational reason for refraining from his activity.  Dave has only said, “I do not agree with it.”

What does this have to do with Darwin?  Darwin’s theory does not compel belief in materialism any more than ID compels a belief in God.  But many people believed (especially in late 19th century Europe and North America) that Darwin’s theory was evidence of the triumph of materialist science over the superstition of religion.  This had a profound impact on our social institutions. 

In most of the recent posts this impact has been explored in the context of the holocaust.  I will not add to that debate.  Instead, I will give an example from my own field of the law.   As I have written before, it is not an overstatement to say that the modern era of American law began with the publication in 1897 of “The Path of the Law” by Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr.   In this seminal work Holmes announced that it was time to jettison the notion that the law has anything to do with morality, because morality has no meaning.  Holmes wrote, “For my own part, I often doubt whether it would not be a gain if every word of moral significance could be banished from the law altogether, and other words adopted which should convey legal ideas uncolored by anything outside the law.”

With “The Path of the Law” Holmes had founded the school of “legal realism,” and this theory gradually came to be the predominate theory of jurisprudence in the United States.  “Legal realism” should more properly be called “legal materialism” because Holmes denied the existence of any objective “principles of ethics or admitted axioms” to guide judges’ rulings.  In other words, the law is not based upon principles of justice that transcend time and place.  The law is nothing more than what willful judges do, and the “rules” they use to justify their decision are tagged on after they have decided the case according to their personal preferences.  At its bottom legal realism is a denial of the objective existence of a foundation of moral norms upon which a structure of justice can be built.

Why would Holmes deny the objective existence of morality?  This is where the influence of Darwin comes in.  It is one of the darker secrets of our nation’s past that Holmes, perhaps the most venerated of all our Supreme Court justices, was a fanatical — I used that word advisedly — Darwinist who advocated eugenics and the killing of disabled babies. I n Buck v. Bell Holmes wrote “It is better for all the world, if instead of waiting to execute degenerate offspring for crime or to let them starve for their imbecility, society can prevent those who are manifestly unfit from continuing their kind . . . Three generations of imbeciles are enough.” As Phillip Johnson has written, Holmes was a “convinced Darwinist who profoundly understood the philosophical implications of Darwinism.”

“The Origin of Species” was published in 1859.  By 1897, when Holmes wrote “The Path of the Law,” Darwinism had had become an unchallengeable scientific orthodoxy accepted as a matter of course by practically all intellectuals. Holmes thought he had no choice but to believe Darwinism and to accept uncritically the philosophical materialism that most people of this time believed followed inexorably from Darwin’s ideas, and his great contribution to American law was to reconcile the philosophy of law with the philosophy of materialism.

Once they were unleashed from any duty to actually apply objective “rules of law,”  judges soon found they could impose their political views on the rest of us under the guise of interpreting the United States Constitution.  The federal judiciary’s long march through our laws, traditions and institutions began slowly in the 1930’ss but rapidly gathered momentum until, in 1973 in the most stunning example of judicial willfulness in our nation’s history, the Supreme Court invalidated the abortion laws of all 50 states.

So you see legal realism was built step by step, precept by precept, upon a foundation of philosophical materialism that in turn rests upon the triumph of Darwin for its acceptance. And upon this foundation was built a superstructure of judicial willfulness that resulted ultimately in Roe v. Wade.  Each link in the causal chain is plain to see for anyone who takes the time to look.

Obviously, I take for granted that abortion — the taking of an innocent human life — is immoral.  In the discussion thread I will not debate this topic, as it is beyond the scope of UD.  I will just say this:  If you believe an unborn baby is not human you are ignorant.  If you believe that taking that baby’s life is not immoral, you are deeply confused morally.

Comments
DaveScott, one more Lewis quote, this time from Mere Christianity: “some people say the idea of [the Tao] is unsound, because different civilizations and different ages have had quite different moralities. But this is not true. There have been differences between their moralities, but these have never amounted to anything like a total difference. If anyone will take the trouble to compare the moral teachings of, say, the ancient Egyptians, Babylonians, Hindus, Chinese, Creeks and Romans, what will really strike him will be how very like they are to each other and to our own . . . I need only ask the reader to think what a totally different morality would mean. Think of a country where people were admired for running away in battle, or where a man felt proud of double-crossing all the people who had been kindest to him. You might just as well try to imagine a country were two and two made five . . . Men have differed as to whether you should have one wife or four. But they have always agreed that you must not simply have any woman you liked.” Dave, the unspoken premise of your statement is that there is not already agreement as to the core of the Tao. But there is. Why we all agree on the core of the Tao and whether God has a beard are different questions. The fact that the Tao exists and that (I was about to say “deep down,” but truly it is not so deep) we know it exists is not reasonably subject to dispute.BarryA
May 6, 2008
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Yes, great post—and others making really good comments here too. Anyway I think a connection can be made between the natural law of the theologians and the mathematical realism (Platonism) of the physicists. Most physicists sense from deep in their bones (so I’m told) a deeper, noncontingent aspect of reality than the particles and forces they seek to unearth—a reality that could be no other way and that is true in all possible worlds (hence they study hypothetical worlds where the laws differ but the mathematics doesn’t). Also, as probably I’ve already mentioned somewhere before, there’s the Peircean tripartite world of logic, esthetics, and ethics (with illogic, ugliness, and evil on the other side of the coin), and thus there’s beauty as a guide to truth and the glaring ugliness and illogic of nihilism (“There are no true statements” is illogical; “Death is eternal” is ugly). One seldom hears these connected and hardly ever do we hear of mathematical realism except from physicists such as Paul Davies and Roger Penrose. Biologists and others seem to know nothing of the argument, and thus when Chomsky speaks of linguistic innateness we think that if it’s not in the gray matter there’s no such thing, having long ago ruled out the mind as a receiver for ideas that are “out there”. Interesting that the same George Lakoff who would teach leftists to frame (to have “faith in the power of euphemism”) would also try to debunk mathematical realism. Interesting also that truth doesn’t seem to matter for those who think that mathematics isn’t real. (But let’s give Prof. Lakoff his due, for long ago he did do some important work on metaphor.) Perhaps one could be an atheist and still be a mathematical Platonist—the laws of physics are written in the language of mathematics—and those laws are beautiful. But to move on to ethics—to natural law—which has to do with agency, not just chance and necessity—perhaps this presupposes an elemental nature of mind the atheist would not countenance. But are they all connected—logic, beauty, goodness—and are they real? It’d be great to see some books come out with new insight on this subject—maybe by a few young ID sympathizers in the area of philosophy or law. I also suspect that a society built on reason, even if based in natural law reasoning (not the the materialism that dominates today), it would still lack if God really had revealed the basics of his ethics at Sinai (as was so long supposed) and we spurn it.Rude
May 6, 2008
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It's irrelevant what universal moral law a person or group actually follows or which is true, which Dave has already said. In this country, it happens to be the Christian ethic. In Arabia, it's Islam. The point is, the people in those places live by it and are judged by it. In this nation, all men have inalienable rights endowed by their Creator. (In Arabia, you can cross Jews off that list.) In materialistic nations, such as the now-defunct USSR and Cuba, God isn't their to subdue their consciences and the leaders can oppress their peoples without feeling guilty. (After all, the strong survive and the meek shall not inherit the earth.) Perhaps we can look at it this way: theists can be hypocrites. Materialist can't be hypocrites, but if they could be hypocrites, there would be nothing wrong with that. It would only be an issue of whether the hypocrisy (or murder or theft or whatever) gave them a survival advantage over the meek who consider such things wrong.faithandshadow
May 6, 2008
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DaveScott, I give you C.S. Lewis in the Abolition of Man: "I am not trying to PROVE [the validity of the Tao] by the argument from common consent. Its validity cannot be deduced. For those who do not perceive its rationality, even universal consent could not prove it." Emphasis in the originalBarryA
May 6, 2008
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Todd, if the majority intuition in Nazi Germany was that killing Jews was right,did that make it right? In addition, you have just killed the idea of moral progress. The majority intuition of southern whites in the 1950's was that "colored" folk should not have equal rights. I'm sure you will agree they were wrong, and the minority intuition was right.BarryA
May 6, 2008
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Majority intuition? The question isn't whether you can assemble some structure of do's and don'ts without reference to whether there is a real 'moral' and 'immoral' behind it. Provine would probably agree with as much. It's not a third choice. It's the 'there is no right or wrong' choice, plus a structure without justification.nullasalus
May 6, 2008
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Todd Berkebile @ 16:
For example, you could instead appeal to majority intuition.
But a majority is just the arithmetic total of each indidvidual's opinion. Absent a transcendent morality, on what basis does each individual "believe" something is wrong? Do they believe it is wrong because the accummulated majority votes something is wrong? Does an individual's opinion become right if majority reverse their votes, say, because enforcement is too costly? Or does each indidvidual form an opinion on their own belief, and on what is that belief based?Charles
May 6, 2008
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You discuss two possibilities, an appeal to a standard that transcends intuition or an appeal to individual intuition. This is a false dichotomy as other options exist. For example, you could instead appeal to majority intuition. If most people believe sex with children is wrong then codify that majority belief into, say, a law which is enforced on all people regardless of their individual intuition. This third choice seems completely compatible with materialism and would seem to yield the same conclusion that the TSAs reach.Todd Berkebile
May 6, 2008
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Great post I'm sending it to a friend of mine who is in law school. (He has already been deeply impressed by Phillip Johnson) In regards to Dave's statement: "The problem with an objective moral standard given from a bearded thunderer is that unless the bearded thunderer makes a personal appearance" He did make an appearance and left a life size photogragh: excerpt page 232 "Portrait of Jesus: Now, if the Shroud is a fake, then whoever fabricated it before 1357, by whatever unknown methods, had command of knowledge and abilities quite incredible for his time. He must have: known the precise methods of crucifixion of the first century; possessed the the medical knowledge of a modern expert surgeon; utilized an art process unknown to any great master, never duplicated before or since; been able to foresee and approximate principles of photographic negativity not otherwise discovered for several centuries; imported a piece of old cloth of Near East manufacture; used a coloring agent that would be unaffected by intense heat; been able to incorporate into his work details (that we have only recently discovered) that the human eye cannot see and that are only visible with the most advanced computer - scanning devices; been able to reproduce. flawlessly, on a nearly flat linen surface, in a single color, undistorted three-dimensional characteristics of a human body in "negative format" on the tops of the threads, while conversely showing the % " as positive and soaking all the way through...This all had to be done prior 1357, for since that date the Shroud has a clearly documented and uninterrupted history. And even now with all the scientific knowledge and skills at our command, our scientists and artists cannot duplicate the Shroud.bornagain77
May 6, 2008
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unless the bearded thunderer makes a personal appearance then whatever those objective moral standards might be we mortals need to somehow agree on them and enforce them with laws and punishments
In my experience, Dave, such agreement is really quite unnecessary because most folks who argue for an objective moral standard are also quite willing, nay eager, to tell you exactly what those standards are, and in great detail. Your agreement is quite superfluous and you need to stop trying to apply reason to matters of revelation.specs
May 6, 2008
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-----"The problem with an objective moral standard given from a bearded thunderer is that unless the bearded thunderer makes a personal appearance then whatever those objective moral standards might be we mortals need to somehow agree on them and enforce them with laws and punishments." What if the “bearded thunderer,” realizing that humanity is not ready for subtleties, really does makes an appearance and lays out the basic formula in the form of Ten Commandments? What if that same entity, in the spirit of continuity, makes another appearance and builds on the original framework, adding a few more nuances, such as the Sermon on the Mount and the Beatitudes? What if all those standards are consistent with the natural moral law which the bearded thunderer has already written in nature and in the human heart? What if those teachings harmonize with the teachings promoted by philosophers and religious teachers all throughout history? What if those same standards have already been shown to promote human happiness at the personal level and fashion a well ordered society at the collective level?StephenB
May 6, 2008
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Eric:
I don’t think DaveScot is against the idea of design.
I agree. I understand Dave to be an ID advocate.
This is a separate issue.
The Designer might care to disagree.Charles
May 6, 2008
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Charles, you have some good questions. Just on correction, as you wrote: "Or is it merely that you require the designer to prove himself to you personally before you’re willing to admit the possibility of design?" I don't think DaveScot is against the idea of design. This is a separate issue.Eric Anderson
May 6, 2008
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DaveScot: Two points: (i) What if the thunderer has in fact appeared and provided some principles of an objective moral standard? Then perhaps our task is to listen and implement. (ii) Even without an appearance, is there some understanding in our collective conscience about right and wrong? Oh, sure, we can think of some difficult examples and close cases, but for the most part people around the world seem to understand some basic concepts of morality. Is this purely concidental, and nothing more than the product of chance and our current societal structure? Perhaps. Yet it is also possible that it represents an innate sense, at a very basic level, of certain inalienable rights that should exist and should be protected. In other words, perhaps there is something already within us and a personal appearance is not needed. Our challenges in understanding and implementing an objective moral standard do not mean one does not exist. Throwing out the idea of an objective moral standard because it it difficult to grapple with is a non-sequitur. Worse, it leads to a much more virulent incoherence, as well articulated by Barry.Eric Anderson
May 6, 2008
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DaveScot @ 5: And must that "beareded thunderer" make a personal appearance to everyone, without exception, before everyone, without exception, may agree on those moral standards? If in spite of such personal appearance, those moral standards are disobeyed by any number of individuals, does their rejection/disobedience negate the moral standards established for everyone else?. Is a transcendent standard in fact not transcendent but merely whatever each individual is willing to accept? Must enforcement of a transcendent standard be done at the behest and by equivalent means of those who disbelieve/reject the transcendent standard a priori? Is it in fact true that no bearded thunderer ever personally appeared and presented a transcendent moral standard? Or is it merely that you require the designer to prove himself to you personally before you're willing to admit the possibility of design?Charles
May 6, 2008
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Barry A: This is an outstanding post. If the objective moral law isn't real, and if it is not recognized as the standard for jurisprudential wisdom, everything we hold dear is lost. Not only do we lose the rational justification for personal morality, we also forfeit the standards for freedom and a well-ordered society. If morality is reduced to a “feeling of nobility,” then there is no way to arbitrate the differences in feelings among individuals. We are left with a “war of all against all,” which is always followed by tyranny. When Holmes, dedicated materialist/ Darwinist that he was, decided that we didn't need the "natural moral law" as a standard for the rule of law, he was, in effect, militating against self government itself. Unless a government and its people acknowledge the reality of the natural moral law, which is written both in nature (design) and in the human heart (conscience), the individual can never claim to have a “natural” or “inalienable” right. If rights aren’t natural, then they can be given and taken away at the whim of the state. How can I say I have a moral obligation and therefore a political right to follow my conscience if there is no such thing as conscience? How can I claim that I deserve to be free if I can’t know the moral law or if there is no moral law to follow? How can I ask for the privilege of self government if I don’t have to tools to practice it?StephenB
May 6, 2008
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no. 5: Assuming such a thunderer (shaven or no) exists, and that this thunderer rendered all that exists - what makes you think that you, commenter No. 5, gets to create the rules for how such a thunderer manifests his/her/itself? But then this is not a very empirical rabbit hole we find ourselves in, now is it? This is why naturalist thinking fails at its very core - it disallows the movement of thought into any other realm but the sensate. We are capable of so much more than this. But that is a discussion best pursued outside of UD I believe.selectedpete
May 6, 2008
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How do we know what the TSA morality is?mike1962
May 6, 2008
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Very well articulated. OT: Barry, might you consider lending your legal opinion to a legal question posed by Scott Hatfield, a Fresno, Ca. highschool science teacher: THE HORRORS OF EVOLUTION-FRIENDLY BELIEF? Note also a couple lawyer responses to that original post.Charles
May 6, 2008
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Barry The problem with an objective moral standard given from a bearded thunderer is that unless the bearded thunderer makes a personal appearance then whatever those objective moral standards might be we mortals need to somehow agree on them and enforce them with laws and punishments.DaveScot
May 6, 2008
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Thank you for the post, Barry. It reminds me of a new book I am reading now - The Reason for God, by Timothy Keller. I recommend it highly. One of his points is that secularism is based on unprovable assumptions just as much as faith is.sagebrush gardener
May 6, 2008
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Excellent concept. "Without God, all things are permissable" - Fyodor Dostoeyevsky. True, lacking transcendent standards, definitions of good and evil are afloat without an anchor. But then, how do good and evil get defined. Sure, it may be intuition at the individual level. But what about society, how is it defined? How do we collectively decide? Napolean refered to the rule of the bayonet. In the past, a society that had no allegiance to transcendent beliefs was simply ruled by force, with the powerful making and enforcing the rules. Simple and efficient. But not today in America, generally speaking. So instead we get a two-tiered system that establishes and enforces the definition of good and evil. The first is the bottom up. It is exemplified by Oprah. It is all about emoting. Whatever can be sold emotionally to people becomes our idea of good and evil, de facto. It is all about marketing and presentation, appearances and feelings. And it can change like the wind. Create your own victim group and you too are good to go. The second, the top down, is what is discussed in terms of judges. But it is a bit broader. It is our leaders that, once elected or appointed, manage to arrange things as they see fit, for the most part. This does not require paranoia or conspiracy theory to believe, just some observation of how leaders operate. They understand just what the Romans understood, bread and circus for the people and you pretty much are left with a free hand. And what are their goals? Public virtue? Individual freedom? Sorry, but no. Gaining, keeping, and expanding power, pure and simple. This is their definition of good. Now, I don't know about you, but I find both of these substitute good-and-evil creaters/enforcers as incredibly dangerous and distasteful. And they say the bible is scary!!Ekstasis
May 6, 2008
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Thanks, Barry. Very well thought out. Your exposition is much more coherent and compelling than the self-defeating materialistic philosophy, which completely flounders in attempting to address the question of good and evil (unless one takes Provine's view and follows it to the logical conclusion). I have found that most folks who loudly proclaim that there is no objective moral standard always fall back on one when pressed.Eric Anderson
May 6, 2008
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Great post, Barrytribune7
May 6, 2008
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