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BarryA Responds to His Critics at Panda’s Thumb

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As I write this there have been 80 comments to my posts about the evidence issues implicated by the plaintiffs’ literature bluff at the Dover trial.  Our friends at Panda’s Thumb have also opened a thread to discuss my posts see (here) and also (here).  For those interested in my response to PT, read on.

1.  The Literature Bluff and Jones reliance on it.

To set the stage once again, here is the passage from the transcript where plaintiffs make their literature bluff followed by the passage from Judge Jones’ opinion where he swallowed it hook, line and sinker:

Q (from plaintiffs lawyer). We’ll return to that in a little while. Let’s turn back to Darwin’s Black Box and continue discussing the immune system. If you could turn to page 138?  Matt, if you could highlight the second full paragraph on page 138?  What you say is, “We can look high or we can look low in books or in journals, but the result is the same. The scientific literature has no answers to the question of the origin of the immune system.”  That’s what you wrote, correct?

A (from Behe). And in the context that means that the scientific literature has no detailed testable answers to the question of how the immune system could have arisen by random mutation and natural selection.
 

[Behe’s answer here is critical to the analysis.  His assertion is obviously NOT that there are no books or articles that generally discuss the evolution of the immune system.  Of course there are.  His assertion is that none of the books and articles provide detailed testable answers about how the immune system could have arisen through Neo-Darwinian mechanisms.  If he were to be impeached by the 58 books and records, the material impeaching him must go to what he said, not something he did not say.]

Q. Now, you were here when Professor Miller testified?
A. Yes.
Q. And he discussed a number of articles on the immune system, correct?
 

A. Yes, he did. . . .
 

Q. And these are not the only articles on the evolution of vertebrate immune system?

A. There are many articles.

[Behe concedes there are “many” articles that generally discuss the evolution of the immune system.  If that were the issue to which the 58 books and articles went, plaintiffs were impeaching him on a point he had conceded, which was strange indeed.]
 

Q. May I approach?

THE COURT: You may.

Q. Professor Behe, what I have given you has been marked Plaintiff’s Exhibit 743.  

Q. And there are fifty-eight articles in here on the evolution of the immune system?
 

A. Yes. That’s what it seems to say . . .
 

Q. I’m going to read some titles here. We have Evolution of Immune Reactions by Sima and Vetvicka, are you familiar with that?

A. No, I’m not . . .
 

Q. You haven’t read those chapters?
 

A. No, I haven’t.
 

Q. You haven’t read the books that I gave you?
 

A. No, I haven’t.  I have read those papers that I presented though yesterday on the immune system.

Q. And the fifty-eight articles, some yes, some no?

A. Well, the nice thing about science is that often times when you read the latest articles, or a sampling of the latest articles, they certainly include earlier results.  So you get up to speed pretty quickly.  You don’t have to go back and read every article on a particular topic for the last fifty years or so.

Q. And all of these materials I gave you and, you know, those, including those you’ve read, none of them in your view meet the standard you set for literature on the evolution of the immune system?  No scientific literature has no answers to the question of the origin of the immune system?

A. Again in the context of that chapter, I meant no answers, no detailed rigorous answers to the question of how the immune system could arise by random mutation and natural selection, and yes, in my, in the reading I have done I have not found any such studies.
 

[This question and this answer are the nub of the issue.  Plaintiffs are trying to impeach Behe on a matter about which he does not disagree with them.  It is a matter of apples and oranges.  Behe says there are no books and articles giving a detailed account of the evolution of the immune system through Neo-Darwinian mechanisms, and plaintiffs attempt to impeach him by showing him a stack of books and articles that discuss the evolution of the immune system generally – do those books and articles actually impeach Behe’s assertion?  There is no way to tell on this record.]

Here is the excerpt from Jones’ opinion where he relies on the literature bluff.

“The immune system is the third system to which Professor Behe has applied the definition of irreducible complexity. Although in Darwin’s Black Box, Professor Behe wrote that not only were there no natural explanations for the immune system at the time, but that natural explanations were impossible regarding its origin. (P-647 at 139; [128]2:26-27 (Miller)). However, Dr. Miller presented peer-reviewed studies refuting Professor Behe’s claim that the immune system was irreducibly complex. Between 1996 and 2002, various studies confirmed each element of the evolutionary hypothesis explaining the origin of the immune system. ([129]2:31 (Miller)). In fact, on cross-examination, Professor Behe was questioned concerning his 1996 claim that science would never find an evolutionary explanation for the immune system. He was presented with fifty- eight peer-reviewed publications, nine books, and several immunology textbook chapters about the evolution of the immune system; however, he simply insisted that this was still not sufficient evidence of evolution, and that it was not “good enough.” ([130]23:19 (Behe)).”

Note that Jones ignored the distinction Behe made.  Behe said there were no DETAILED ACCOUNTS of the evolution of the immune system through Neo-Darwinian mechanism.  By the time it got to Jones’ opinion Behe was being quoted as saying there are no accounts of any kind of the evolution of the immune system.  As is clear from the transcript above, Behe said exactly the opposite.  Behe’s position is that yes, there are general accounts, just no detailed accounts.

2.  The books and articles were important for the information contained in them, or they were important for nothing at all.
 

Before I get into the specific criticisms, one thing should be made clear.  Over and over again, both in response to my posts and in their own posts, my critics keep saying that the only thing the plaintiffs were trying to prove with the 58 books and articles was the mere existence of the books and articles.  By this I take it they mean that the mere existence of 58 books and articles about the evolution of the immune system refuted Behe’s assertion that there are no detailed accounts of the evolution of the immune system by random mutation and natural selection.  This is one of the silliest arguments I have ever heard, and it is difficult for me to credit that grown people would make it. 

The title of a book or article is evidence of nothing.  Only the information contained in a book or article is relevant.  Can I prove the existence of time travel by introducing as an exhibit a book entitled “A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur’s Court?”  Of course not.  Because when one opens the book it is clearly a work of fiction.  Can I prove that scientists have developed a detailed account of the evolution of the immune system by introducing a book entitled “A Detailed Account of the Evolution of the Immune System?”  No, no, no.  The important thing about a book is not the promise of the title, but whether it delivers on the promise.  

That is why introducing 58 books and articles for no other purpose than to prove the existence of 58 books and articles with “evolution” and “immune system” in their title proves nothing.  Did any of these books actually deliver on the promise of their title?  On this record there is no way to tell.  Therefore, the point of my posts is that the evidence is meaningless and should have been excluded both as irrelevant (Rule 402) and as Hearsay (Rule 802) UNLESS the procedures of Rule 803(18) were followed.  Since the procedures of that rule were not followed, the defendants’ lawyers should have objected to it, and Jones should have (1) excluded it and (2) not relied on it in his opinion.

3.  The Second Post Was Based On A Review of the Transcript.
 

One critic quotes my second post where I said that after it became apparent that there was no testimony that the 58 books and articles were authoritative, they should have been objected to and excluded.  Then he chides me for being inconsistent by quoting from the first post where I said that based on the quotes in Gil’s thread it appeared that an authoritative foundation had been laid.

The answer to this is simple.  In my first post I included the following disclaimer:

“I was going to post this in Gil’s “Literature Bluffing” thread, but it got too long, so I am putting it in this post.  Let me preface this comment by stating that I have not reviewed the transcript of the Dover trial in detail, and I am basing what I am about to say on the information in the thread to Gil’s post.”

I wrote my second post after reading Behe’s testimony.  From that review it was clear that he had not stipulated that the 58 books and articles were authoritative.  Indeed, how could he since he was not even asked the question?

4.  PT Does Not Get the Basic Point.
 

One critic says:  “What Eric Rothschild (plaintiffs’ lawyer) was going after in the cross-examination was Behe’s claim that the scientific literature didn’t discuss the evolution of the immune system.”

Nonsense.  Pure drivel.  Behe admitted there were “many” articles discussing the evolution of the immune system:

Q. And these are not the only articles on the evolution of vertebrate immune system?

A. There are many articles.

Again, Behe’s point was not that there were no articles discussion the evolution of the immune system generally, but no articles providing a detailed account of its evolution through Neo-Darwinian mechanisms.

5.  There is more than one way to establish an article is authoritative.
 

My critics say that under my interpretation of Rule 803(18), a learned treatise can never be used to impeach an expert unless the expert that is being impeached admits that it is authoritative and that he agrees with it.  They say that under my view of the rule the following exchange could take place:  [Expert:]  ‘I’m sorry, I have no knowledge of this textbook that is basic to this field.’ [Lawyer:]‘Your honor, move to exclude this on the grounds that my expert doesn’t know a thing about it.’ [Court:] ‘Granted.’”

I never said this; indeed, I said just the opposite (see comment 39 to my second post).

In order to comply with Rule 803(18), the plaintiffs should have asked Behe one by one if each of the 58 books and articles was authoritative.  I am sure that after reviewing them one by one Behe would have said that all or most of them were.  For those that Behe refused to admit were authoritative, plaintiffs could have had another expert testify they were.

The first step of Rule 803(18) is usually not hard to meet.  My point is simply this.  There has to be some evidence from a person qualified to comment on the issue that a book or article is authoritative.  The judge is not entitled to simply assume that books and articles with fancy titles are authoritative. 

In the PT example, if expert A truly is unaware of a definitive work in the field, then the opposition could call expert B to testify that the work is definitive, and then impeach A with the work even if he had never read it.

6.  The books and articles were offered to prove the truth of the matters they asserted.
 

Another critic writes:  “Actually, BarryA is wrong on another count. The books and articles weren’t inadmissible because they were not hearsay. All of his discussion about learned treatises and the parameters of Federal Rule of Evidence 803(18) is meaningless. The books and articles weren’t offered to prove the truth of any statement contained in them. They were offered instead to contradict Behe’s claim that there were no peer-reviewed articles discussing the evolution of the immune system. That being the case, they’re not hearsay and there’s no reason to exclude them from evidence. Fed. R. Evid. 801(c).”

Wrong.  Please see comment 2 above.

 

 

 

Comments
Barry- I guess I'm just confused as to how college-educated men can be so confused by a simple quote, taking it so wildly out of context and ignoring 90 percent of it to come up with this conclusion that is totally unwarranted. Their conclusion is- Behe gets all his scientific info. from the NY Times "and such." That is utter nonsense. From Behe's quote alone, it's obvious that's not at all what he was saying. I just can't understand how this seems to be so confusing to some at PT.JasonTheGreek
August 13, 2006
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I type too fast. Well, what the heck, since now my integrity is being attacked, let’s review all the statements: I said that Behe does not know the details about the evidence, because “by his own admission he has not read all of the literature, and learns of breakthroughs in the field from the pages of the New York Times and such.” “Your integrity”, although I would not use that phrase — I 'd say credibility on a narrow issue — is being attacked because you left yourself open. Behe did not say what you are implying that he said.tribune7
August 13, 2006
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Well, what the heck, since now my integrity is being attacked, let’s review all the statements: I said that Behe does not know the details about the evidence, because “by his own admission he has not read all of the literature, and learns of breakthroughs in the field from the pages of the New York Times and such.” "Your integrity", althouh I would not use that phrase -- I said credibility on a narrow issue -- is being attacked because you left yourself open. Behe did not say what you are implying that he said.tribune7
August 13, 2006
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What did Behe say at deposition? That he had not read the papers shown to him, because he “would be waiting for larger news stories to point to these things”. THAT'S NOT WHAT BEHE SAID! Oh my gosh, it's like talking to a brick wall. He also never claimed he learns of the latest breaktroughs from the NY Times. I'm sorry, but this is either willfull ignorance or dishonesty. Go back and paste Behe's ENTIRE quote. His point was that he HAS read the literature but he doesn't see the evidence that the system has come about via NS and RM, or that there's a truly detailed step by step pathway found. And that if there had been such a breakthrough it would have made front page news everywhere. He's not saying that this was the only place he would have seen it- he's saying that he hasn't read every single article on planet earth. He hasn't read every single paper tossed in his face at trial, but that the information within is familiar to him, as it's included in later papers that rehash the old data.JasonTheGreek
August 13, 2006
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Jason, You ask: “My point, by the way, was that I can’t see how you can distort something without doing so in a dishonest way. To distort is to basically dishonestly portray someone or their words. If we agree that he’s distorting what Behe said and Behe’s overall scientific work ethic- isn’t that itself dishonest?” Yes, I agree that Andrea was distorting (and continues to distort, as in comment 66) what Behe said. I do not necessarily believe the distortion is the result of dishonesty. To answer your question, yes, it is entirely possible to distort without being dishonest. How is it possible? Glad you asked. Let’s take the Behe statement as an example. (see comment 61 where it is set forth in full). Our opponents focus on Behe’s reference to the New York Times. Well, Behe did mention the New York Times. It would be dishonest if they were to say Behe mentioned the New York Times if he had not. It is not necessarily dishonest to give undue emphasis to the statement. From their perspective, it probably stands out like the proverbial sore thumb. The corrective is not to call them names but to call them out on the distortion. My point is very simple. Unless we know beyond a reasonable doubt that a commenter is being dishonest (as opposed to commenting from his perspective even if the comment is wrong or distorted), charity (I use that term in its old-fashioned sense) requires us to give them the benefit of the doubt. Does this make sense?BarryA
August 13, 2006
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He isn't sitting on his butt in some office waiting for someone to E-Mail him the info. He was clearly saying that if a detailed pathway that DEALT WITH ALL THE MANY PROBLEMS involved would be MAJOR news. So major that people would literally be E-Mailing him the information. He NEVER said he wasn't familiar with the scientific literature. It's clear that he said that he is familiar with it, but that he doesn't think it deals with all the problems that are involved. Pointing to a paper that claims to show the evidence of a detailed pathway of the system via RM+NS doesn't amount to much if the person in question doesn't agree with the conclusion that the paper itself has resolved the issue. I can claim that 9/11 was an inside job. Then, I can 'prove' as much by pointing to a paper from some professor who claims A, B, and C. I can then disagree with his conclusion, concluding myself that his evidence doesn't meet the challenge. Listing some papers that claim to show A, B, and C obviously doesn't meet the challenge in Behe's mind. That's quite different from him saying he hasn't read the literature or that he's unfamiliar with the recent findings.JasonTheGreek
August 13, 2006
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Well, what the heck, since now my integrity is being attacked, let's review all the statements: I said that Behe does not know the details about the evidence, because "by his own admission he has not read all of the literature, and learns of breakthroughs in the field from the pages of the New York Times and such." What did Behe say at deposition? That he had not read the papers shown to him, because he "would be waiting for larger news stories to point to these things". And where would Behe find such "news stories"? "One would see reviews in scientific literature such as the annual reviews" (several of which however were presented to him and he admitted not having read), and "maybe even Scientific American or the New York Times or some such publications". So, the only revision I could perhaps make to my original statement would be: "by his own admission [Behe] has not read all of the literature, and expects to learn of breakthroughs in the field from the pages of the New York Times and such." To say that I unfairly reflected the content of Behe's deposition is very much a stretch, and at this point seems like a diversion from the original topic, which was the evidence presented to behe at Kitzmiller.Andrea
August 13, 2006
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Andrea -- Objectively, he says he gets his info not from primary papers, You are mischaracterizing it but I think that stems from the fact that you misunderstand his point. He's saying that if the evolution of a molecular system was established it would be enormous news and that he couldn't help but hear about it.tribune7
August 13, 2006
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Behe gave that answer as a reason for why he wasn't familiar with the scientific articles -- key articles in the field, actually -- that we showed him at the deposition. He also said that he expected people would email him if the literature was out there. It is ludicrous, and rather arrogant, but that is what he said. As it happens, he wasn't even familiar with the popular science and review literature. I already mentioned the Scientific American and Science News articles. He also missed this major article in Annual Review of Immunology: Litman, G. W., Anderson, M. K. and Rast, J. P. (1999). "Evolution of antigen binding receptors." Annual Review of Immunology 17: 109-147. http://dx.doi.org/10.1146/annurev.immunol.17.1.109 For the latest, see: Pancer, Z. and Cooper, M. D. (2006). "The Evolution of Adaptive Immunity." Annual Review of Immunology 24. http://dx.doi.org/10.1146/annurev.immunol.24.021605.090542Nickm
August 13, 2006
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Andrea, that's NOT what Behe said! The atty threw a bunch of papers in his face and said have you read this this and that? NOWHERE did he said or imply that he doesn't read the primary or review literature. He made the point that he HAS but that most of it includes OLDER material that he hasn't directly read. How is this so difficult? I'm not even going to try anymore. You're unwilling to discuss the issue without distorting Behe's words. If you can't get past that distortion, there's no hope period.JasonTheGreek
August 13, 2006
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"I wonder what quotes we can get from you Andrea- then twist and distort them to claim nonsensical things about you and your scientific work." Why do I have the feeling this is being done already? ;-) Anyway, I guess anyone who reads the quotes above, and learns from the Kitzmiller transcripts that Behe had not read the majority of the primary and review literature on immune system evolution that was presented to him, can draw their own conclusion regarding Behe's literature searching methods. That's really not an important point. Let's discuss the evidence itself.Andrea
August 13, 2006
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My point, by the way, was that I can't see how you can distort something without doing so in a dishonest way. To distort is to basically dishonestly portray someone or their words. If we agree that he's distorting what Behe said and Behe's overall scientific work ethic- isn't that itself dishonest?JasonTheGreek
August 13, 2006
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Distortion itself IS dishonest. You distort something to cover up the truth of what's being said, so they go hand-in-hand. Andrea's lame attacks on Behe (that anyone who reads the entire quote can see are dishonesty attacks) need to be called out, I'd say. Else we allow him to continue these false attacks against Behe's character. I agree with Dave Scott above: "Andrea is perhaps forgetting that Behe is a working Professor of Biochemistry with a respectable list of peer reviewed publication in the field rather than the interested semi-literate layman Andrea wishes to portray him as."JasonTheGreek
August 13, 2006
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"So why do you assume that evolution is responsible for it?" So, you think scientists have to ignore massive amounts of evidence for the evolution of a system, until such time as they completely understand every last detail about it?Nickm
August 13, 2006
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Nickm, Why yes, we are saying Andrea mischaracterized Behe’s statement. Seriously. He took Behe’s offhand mention of the New York Times and tried to make it appear as though that was the central thrust of Behe’s statement. You can’t seriously say that is not a mischaracterization.BarryA
August 13, 2006
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Reading back through the thread. I think just pasting Behe\\\'s quote that Andrea includes makes the distortion very clear. Andrea, in [snip] attack mode, bolds the part I have in bold below. Fortunately, I\\\'d guess that 99% of us can actually read the ENTIRE quote. Of course, by reading the first half of the quote, Andrea\\\'s distortion of Behe is quite clear.
A: Well, a real detailed explanation for understanding such a system would I think be large news across the scientific community. So that one would see not only an occasional article even in Nature dealing with a topic, one would see reviews in scientific literature such as the annual reviews summarizing not only some step that some people are trying to address, but the overall multiple problems that such a system would have to deal with. I would expect maybe even Scientific American or the New York Times or some such publications to have large headlines saying that finally we have an understanding of at least one molecular system.
Behe\\\'s quote was CRYSTAL CLEAR. He never makes any mention of what literature HE himself reads. His point is that if there was a detailed step by step pathway that was introduced and it also addressed the \\\"overall multiple problems that such a system would have to deal with\\\"- it would be MAJOR news. SO major that it would be mentioned in every popular publication out there. Andrea has totally distorted everything Behe he said. edited per comment 59 above BarryAJasonTheGreek
August 13, 2006
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You guys can't seriously be accusing Andrea of mischaracterizing Behe, when Andrea said from memory "New York Times and such", and Behe said in his deposition "maybe even Scientific American or the New York Times or some such publications."Nickm
August 13, 2006
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My Dear Mr. \"The Greek,\" Please stick to issues and ideas. No need to call people dishonest.  You wrote:  \"Stop being dishonest and twisting what Behe said.\"  It would be better if you had written:  Stop twisting what Behe said.\"  One thing I have learned after 20 years of practicing law (which is mostly just professional arguing) is that people are rarely flatly dishonest when they argue. Even when I think their argument is way over the top, usually they are just speaking from their perspective. Attack their arguments with reckless abandon and with as much hyperbole as you like. Please don\'t attack them. Remember, it is very important that our opponents feel free to post here. Otherwise this forum will degenerate into a boring \"me too\" club. Thank you.BarryA
August 13, 2006
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Andrea -- In fact, our current understanding of the immune system as it is today does not fulfill this standard - we don’t have a complete knowledge of all its components, their molecular, cellular and functional inter-relationships, their pattern of engagement by different kinds of pathogens and foreign substances, etc - we don’t even know for sure what the ultimate logic is (”self/non-self discrimination”? “danger signals”?). So why do you assume that evolution is responsible for it?tribune7
August 13, 2006
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I wonder what quotes we can get from you Andrea- then twist and distort them to claim nonsensical things about you and your scientific work. Shameful.JasonTheGreek
August 13, 2006
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You provided no evidence to suggest that. You're purposefully distorting what Behe said. Stop being dishonest and twisting what Behe said. He clearly said, as any fool can tell, that he sees no evidence that a detailed step-by-step pathway has been introduced. His point is clear- if there was major evidence of this, it would be on the front page of major newspapers. He never said not even implied he gets his info. from the Times, or that he doesn't read the primary literature. He actually make it quite clear he DOES read the primary literatur, and pointed out that this literature nearly always includes information from older sources, which means you need not read ALL of the primary literature of the past decades. Like I said- how can anyone take anything you say seriously with this nonsense?JasonTheGreek
August 13, 2006
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Read further, Jason: I just presented quotes showing that Behe barely if at all reads the primary literature, sporadically reads the relevant professional reviews, and expects to read about major breakthroughs in the lay press. And again, this is just a distraction from discussing the evidence. Come on.Andrea
August 13, 2006
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Andrea said: "Now, let’s try to focus on the evidence and not on irrelevant side issues." I say: Practice what you preach.JasonTheGreek
August 13, 2006
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Andrea- how can anyone take ANYTHING you say seriously when you make absurd comments like this:
since by his [Behe's] own admission he has not read all of the literature, and learns of breakthroughs in the field from the pages of the New York Times and such.
NOWHERE did Behe make this claim, nor did he even get anywhere near to giving this impression.JasonTheGreek
August 13, 2006
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Hard to accuse me of quote-mining, since I didn't quote. At best, I can be accused me of mischaracterizing Behe's statement. Objectively, he says he gets his info not from primary papers, but from secondary literature (reviews) and lay publications (SA, NYT and such). However, the literature list presented to Behe at Kitzmiller contains many reviews that he admittedly had not seen. So, my point remains: Behe does not follow the primary literature, or for that matter properly follow the secondary literature, and seem to mostly rely to lay publications and, I guess, the occasional personal communication/web interaction. This doesn't mean that he is necessarily a bad scientist (I certainly don't keep abreast of all the literature on nucleic acids structure, Behe's former field before he switched to ID), and certainly not "a semi-literate layman" (which I never stated or implied) - just that immunology is not his field and he's doesn't know the literature "full well". Now, let's try to focus on the evidence and not on irrelevant side issues.Andrea
August 13, 2006
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Of course, evolutionary immunology has been published in Scientific American: Beck, G. and Habicht, G. S. (1996). \"Immunity and the invertebrates.\" Scientific American 275(5): 60-63, 66. Litman, G. W. (1996). \"Sharks and the origins of vertebrate immunity.\" Scientific American 275(5): 67-71. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&dopt=Citation&list_uids=8875809 ...and Behe still didn\'t know about it. Here is another good article (though out of date) on the transposon hypothesis. Many of the leaders in the field are interviewed. The case was impressive even in 1998, and has gotten stronger now that they have found the transposon (which they clearly were thinking about in that 1998 article). John Travis (1998). \"The Accidental Immune System - evolution of the combinatorial immune system.\" Science News, Nov 7, 1998. http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1200/is_1998_Nov_7/ai_53280922Nickm
August 13, 2006
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The prior link to Behe's publications was inadvertantly just those from the past 5 years which are swamped by evolution controversy. This list is more reflective of peer reviewed publication in biochemistry.DaveScot
August 13, 2006
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Behe: "large news across the scientific community" Behe: "even Scientific American" Why did Andrea clip those out and only use the partial quote "New York Times and such"? This is unadulterated quote mining out of context. Large news across the scientific community is much more (dare I say infinitely more :razz: ) than just the New York Times and such. Behe made no admission that his sources begin and end with the New York Times and such but that he would expect to be tipped off to a major discovery outside his focused interests by more than just an occasional article in Nature but rather "one would see reviews in scientific literature such as the annual reviews". Any reasonable person would read Behe's statement as saying that he expects to read about major discoveries in annual science reviews (and even Scientific American and the New York times and such) and then, if he is further interested, go to the source for details. Andrea is perhaps forgetting that Behe is a working Professor of Biochemistry with a respectable list of peer reviewed publication in the field rather than the interested semi-literate layman Andrea wishes to portray him as.DaveScot
August 13, 2006
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BarryA wrote about Dover Decision:
Here is the excerpt from Jones’ opinion where he relies on the literature bluff.
“The immune system is the third system to which Professor Behe has applied the definition of irreducible complexity. Although in Darwin’s Black Box, Professor Behe wrote that not only were there no natural explanations for the immune system at the time, but that natural explanations were impossible regarding its origin. (P-647 at 139; [128]2:26-27 (Miller)). However, Dr. Miller presented peer-reviewed studies refuting Professor Behe’s claim that the immune system was irreducibly complex. Between 1996 and 2002, various studies confirmed each element of the evolutionary hypothesis explaining the origin of the immune system. ([129]2:31 (Miller)). In fact, on cross-examination, Professor Behe was questioned concerning his 1996 claim that science would never find an evolutionary explanation for the immune system. He was presented with fifty- eight peer-reviewed publications, nine books, and several immunology textbook chapters about the evolution of the immune system; however, he simply insisted that this was still not sufficient evidence of evolution, and that it was not “good enough.” ([130]23:19 (Behe)).”
Note that Jones ignored the distinction Behe made. Behe said there were no DETAILED ACCOUNTS of the evolution of the immune system through Neo-Darwinian mechanism. By the time it got to Jones’ opinion Behe was being quoted as saying there are no accounts of any kind of the evolution of the immune system. As is clear from the transcript above, Behe said exactly the opposite. Behe’s position is that yes, there are general accounts, just no detailed accounts.
Judge Jones wrote:
"he simply insisted that this was still not sufficient evidence of evolution, and that it was not “good enough.”"
The last words are in quotes, like they were Behe's words. But what Behe really said on cross-examination, was, that "it's NOT that they aren't good enough. It's simply that they are addressed to a different subject.", and the judge still wrote, that Behe had said, that "it was not "good enough."" I think, that the judge has put words in Behe's mouth.Analyysi
August 13, 2006
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"Fascinating. A Darwinist can admit that the scientific community’s understanding of a system is deeply incomplete and uncertain. Then the same Darwinist can turn around and say the Neo-Darwinist paradigm gives us a fully acceptable account of the system we don’t understand. That’s some trick." No "trick". We have a sufficient, albeit clealry incomplete, understanding of the immune system to describe how it generally works, how certain of its components are organized and interact, why things can go wrong with it some times and even, in some cases, how to fix them when they do, to predict future findings and succesfully test those predictions. We also have a sufficient, albeit incomplete understanding of immune system evolution to account for the available information about it and successfully test predictions about what the next sets of findings will be. That's just how science works. "Let me ask you this. Does the Neo-Darwinist paradigm give an acceptable account of the origin of only the parts of the system that are understood? Or does it also give an acceptable account of the origin of the parts of the system about which our understanding is deeply incomplete and uncertain? If the latter, how can Neo-Darwinism explain the origin of the part of a system that is not understood?" Not sure I understand you. For instance, as I mentioned above there is some discussion among immunologists about two non-mutually exclusive models of the basic principle by which the vertebrate immune system works: one is based on the structural, molecular discrimination between "self" and "non-self", and the other sees the distinction between "self" and "non-self" as secondary, and says that what matters is the context in which certain structural determinants are detected by the system ("danger signal"). Evolutionary immunologists are contributing to this discussion by trying to understand the principles that underly the immune responses of "primitive" vertebrates and of other organisms whose immune system may be representative of the pre-vertebrate ancestral state, and clarifying along which lines it could have evolved. Basically, evolutionary biology is of course based on available independent knowledge of whatever system it is studying, while at the same time it can help address some open questions by analyzing them in a phylogenetic framework. Does that answer your question?Andrea
August 13, 2006
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