Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Berlinski’s Question Remains Unanswered

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In a recent post I asked the following question.

I have a question for non-ID proponents only and it is very simple: Is there even one tenet of modern evolutionary theory that is universally agreed upon by the proponents of modern evolutionary theory?

Then I waited for the answers to come in. I was not disappointed, and I would like to express a hearty “thank you” to the proponents of modern evolutionary theory who participated in the exercise.

I have gone through the comments, and the proponents have nominated the following list as tenets on which all proponents of modern evolutionary theory agree:

1. Common descent

2. Modern organisms descend from very ancient ones.

3. The differences among related lineages have accumulated over many generations of change.

4. The basis of (some of) the differences among individuals is heritable.

5. The relative success of those heritable traits is the basis of evolutionary change.

6. Selection is an important evolution force.

7. Populations connected by gene flow evolve together absent very strong selection pull each population in different directions.

8. Selection is important (I am not sure how this is different from 6).

9. Drift exists.

10. Allopatric speciation is possible.

11. Most speciation processes fit somewhere between the extremes of sympatric speciation and allopatric speciation.

12. All of modern life shares common ancestry, HGT and orphan genes notwithstanding.

13. The following mechanisms of genetic change cause change in lineages, with a bias against reversal:
Mutation (point, indel, duplication and rearrangement)
Gene Conversion
Recombination (several mechanisms including HGT)

14. A parallel process of concentration/dilution of such variant alleles occurs (concentration of one is inevitably dilution of the other), by both sample error (drift) and systematic bias (selection).

15. Only frequency-dependent selection can oppose the progress of such an allele through to the fixation of one variant and elimination of the other. This is rare, so origin-fixation is the norm, long-term. [Later withdrawn]

16. Iterated occurrences of such fixations inevitably change lineages.

17. Isolated gene pools diverge.

18. Species differences are fundamentally due to the tendency of this divergence to proceed beyond the point of interfertility (isolation through prezygotic and postzygotic mechanisms).

19. Higher taxa result from ongoing divergences of historic species.

20. Transition-transversion biases in substitution are due to a biochemical tendency increasing yields of one product over the other.

21. Codon position biases occur and are due to the relative effects of selection and drift on synonymous vs nonsynonymous sites.

OK then. Let’s take a look at this list. They seem to fall into the following five categories.

Category 1: Who doesn’t believe that?

Pretty much everyone on the planet would agree with the following proposition: Animals and plants are different now than they were in the past. Thus, the proposition – while at some trivial level a tenant of modern evolutionary theory – is not that which sets it apart from other theories and accounts for its unique purported explanatory power. Even young earth creationists believe it. Therefore, these propositions cannot be the basis for any claim that the theory (as opposed to some other theory) is true. From the above list the following fall into this category: 1, 2, 3, 7, 9, 10, 12, 14, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20 and 21.

Category 2: Trivial

4. The basis of (some of) the differences among individuals is heritable.

Yes, all evolution proponents agree that genetics exists.

Category 3. It is simply not true that all evolution proponents believe it

It is simply not true, for example, that all evolution proponents believe that natural selection plays more than a non-trivial role in the process. It is also not true that all proponents believe sympatric speciation occurs. 5, 8 and 11 fall into this category. See here and here.

Category 4. I Don’t know what claim is being made

13. The following mechanisms of genetic change cause change in lineages, with a bias against reversal:
Mutation (point, indel, duplication and rearrangement)
Gene Conversion
Recombination (several mechanisms including HGT)

Is the proponent of this claim stating that genetic change and only genetic change causes change in a lineage? If so, it is clearly not the case that all proponents of the theory agree with this; indeed most of them would dispute it. Is the proponent claiming merely that genetics change occurs and somehow that gets fixed in a species? If that is the case, it would fall under category 1.

Catategory 5. Withdrawn: claim 15.

CONCLUSIONS

My suspicions have been confirmed. Proponents of modern evolutionary theory all agree on a set of propositions that even most fervent young earth creationist would also agree on. And nothing more as far as I can tell.

What I was really trying to get at was this: Is there any “core” proposition on which all proponents of modern evolutionary theory agree. By “core” proposition, I do not mean basic facts of biology that pretty much everyone from YECs to Richard Dawkins agrees are true. I mean a proposition upon which the theory stands or falls, and, as I said above, sets it apart from other theories and accounts for its unique purported explanatory power

I have in mind a proposition that would answer David Berlinski’s famous question:

I disagree [with Paul R. Gross’ assertion] that Darwin’s theory is as “solid as any explanation in science.” Disagree? I regard the claim as preposterous. Quantum electrodynamics is accurate to thirteen or so decimal places; so, too, general relativity. A leaf trembling in the wrong way would suffice to shatter either theory. What can Darwinian theory offer in comparison?

Indeed. What does modern evolutionary theory offer in comparison? How can the theory ever hope to be as “solid as any explanation in science” when its proponents cannot seem to agree on a single tenet, the falsification of which would, in Berlinski’s words, shatter the theory?

UPDATE:

In the comments eigenstate pulls Haldane’s famous “rabbit in the Cambrian” out of his hat. I will address that here:

Everyone knows there are no rabbit fossils in the strata that have been labeled “Cambrian.” First, eigen’s sputtering to the contrary notwithstanding, the primary reason a stratum would be called “Cambrian” in the first place is because of the absence of rabbit fossils.

Set that aside for the moment and consider this. The fact that there are no rabbit fossils in the Cambrian strata is a datum. It is a datum for evolutionary theory; it is a datum for young earth creationists; it is a datum for ID proponents. It is a fact on the ground in the same way that people are stuck to the earth with a force of 1G is a fact on the ground. Saying “a rabbit in a Cambrian stratum would destroy Darwinism” is equivalent to saying “if people start floating off into space it would destroy general relativity.” Well, people are not floating off into space and they are not about to. No rabbits have been found in the Cambrian strata and none ever will be. Haldane’s observation amounts to nothing more than “if the facts were different the theory to explain those facts would have to be different too.” It is trivially true and singularly unhelpful.

I take it that Berlinski’s point is very different. The mathematical models of quantum electrodynamics and general relativity make extremely precise predictions (13 decimal points). It follows that those theories have exposed themselves to an enormously high degree of “risk,” because if an observation were to vary from prediction by even an astronomically small degree it would falsify the theory.

Now consider the following exchange:

Barry: And yet unlike respectable scientific theories, there is not universal agreement on a single one of those details that sets [evolutionary] theory apart as an explanatory mechanism.

eigenstate: so what?

Well, here is what. Paul R. Gross’ asserted that Darwin’s theory is as “solid as any explanation in science.” Berlinski retorted that the assertion is preposterous. The point of the OP is that Berlinski is certainly correct. There is not even agreement among evolutionary theorists on what the model should be in the first place; far less has anyone developed a model that would make exquisitely precise predictions equivalent to those made by quantum electrodynamics and general relativity. Thank you eigenstate for confirming Berlinski’s point with your “so what.’

Comments
Upright BiPed:
Materialists don’t miss a beat in ignoring these observable facts; a wayward rabbit should be no problem.
At least a wayward rabbit might provide nutrition. Observable facts, not so much. Rabbit Soup for the Soul?Mung
May 7, 2015
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Mung: Evolutionary theory states that earlier things came earlier and later things came later, and if later things came earlier and earlier things came later then evolutionary theory would be falsified. You science deniers just need to get over it. Good comedy :Dmike1962
May 7, 2015
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eigenstate: A visit from aliens or God showing us how evolution really happened as opposed to the model we have in evolutionary theory. Silver Asiatic: That sounds sort of like “only God knows if this theory is right or wrong”. For me, if that’s the case, then it’s probably wrong. Indeed. Can you imagine someone saying that about Quantum Thermodynamics with a serious look on their face?mike1962
May 7, 2015
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Eigenstate: If such a salvage were to ultimately succeed, it would not be “evolution as we knew it”, circa 2014.
Can you provide a link to “evolution 2014”? :)Box
May 7, 2015
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Zachriel:
There’s no plausible reworking of historical descent that would be consistent with a Cambrian rabbit and the current theory of evolution.
There isn't any current theory of evolution you confused loser.Joe
May 7, 2015
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#55
There is a physical mechanism that provides for the inheritance of traits.
Yes, it's called semiosis, or more broadly, representationalism. You can't organize an autonomous self-replicating cell capable of open-ended evolution without it. It is an irreducibly complex system that must arise from an inanimate (non-information) environment, and the details of its construction must be simultaneously encoded in the very information it makes possible. Materialists don't miss a beat in ignoring these observable facts; a wayward rabbit should be no problem.Upright BiPed
May 7, 2015
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William J Murray: I didn’t say that a descendant would appear prior to their ancestors. I said, is it not possible that there could have existed some pre-cambrian evolutionary lineage that we don’t know anything about that produce what appears to be a pre-cambrian rabbit? A rabbit is a highly derived mammal. It's far too modern to have plausibly evolved in the Cambrian, not only before the first known mammal, but before the first known amniote, even before the first known land tetrapod. William J Murray: If we found a pre-cambrian “rabbit”, then, evolutionary theory (RM & NS, basically, generate everything we see in biology) “as we know it” would not be falsified, but rather timelines, lineages and categorizations might have to be adjusted to accommodate the existence of that creature and an appropriate preceding lineage, correct? There's no plausible reworking of historical descent that would be consistent with a Cambrian rabbit and the current theory of evolution. Either a new theory of evolution would have to be proposed, or a entirely new theory.Zachriel
May 7, 2015
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If we found a pre-cambrian “rabbit”, then, evolutionary theory (RM & NS, basically, generate everything we see in biology) “as we know it” would not be falsified, but rather timelines, lineages and categorizations might have to be adjusted to accommodate the existence of that creature and an appropriate preceding lineage, correct?
No, there's nothing to adjust the rabbit "to" as a lineage, then. It's just over for evolution "as we know it", now we've got nothing as even plausible precursors available for our problematic rabbit. If the dynamics of evolution are to be restored (albeit with a very different Tree of Life due to the find), it would be done on the basis being able to find a fossil lineage that can place vertebrate mammals in the Cambrian -- something not in view here in this scenario. If such a salvage were to ultimately succeed, it would not be "evolution as we knew it", circa 2014.eigenstate
May 7, 2015
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I have a question for non-ID proponents only and it is very simple: Is there even one tenet of modern evolutionary theory that is universally agreed upon by the proponents of modern evolutionary theory?” Sure. Again, you people are making it too hard. First, “universal agreement” is a red herring; there are always folks who disagree. In the age of spaceflight, we can’t even get universal agreement that the Earth is round. Second, “proponents of modern evolutionary theory” is also a red herring. I am a proponent of modern evolutionary theory, but I’m not a scientist, much less a biologist. Anyone can claim to be a proponent, even if they don’t know a thing. I’ve met a few of those. Third, just to be sure, I reminded myself what a tenet is: 1. any opinion, principle, doctrine, dogma, etc., especially one held as true by members of a profession, group, or movement. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/tenet What matters is if there are tenets that are agreed to by the vast majority of biologists. There are. 1. Evolution happens. 2. The Earth is billions of years old. 3. There is a physical mechanism that provides for the inheritance of traits. 4. Traits can be passed from parent to offspring even if not manifested in the parent or the offspring. 5. The physical mechanism of inheritance must be stable enough to preserve traits but unstable enough to provide natural variations to drive evolution. 6. Successful variants will most often be those that confer a reproductive or survival advantage, however slight. I am sure there are others, but these are a good start. I can anticipate your objections. You will shove some or all of these into your Category 1: Who doesn’t believe that? or Category 2: Trivial. Well, now yes. But in 1859 when Darwin and Wallace published the theory, almost no one believed these things. Those still count as Wins for Evolution. sean s.sean samis
May 7, 2015
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Yarko, read it and weep: Darwin’s greatest discovery: Design without designer- I can present plenty more if you like.Joe
May 7, 2015
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Find the evolutionary theory and you will found something.Joe
May 7, 2015
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AS said:
Zachriel is saying that, for evolution to be true, the nested hierarchy of common descent must be observed. Descendants cannot appear in the fossil record prior to their ancestors.
I didn't say that a descendant would appear prior to their ancestors. I said, is it not possible that there could have existed some pre-cambrian evolutionary lineage that we don't know anything about that produce what appears to be a pre-cambrian rabbit? YM said:
YM A rabbit like creature could have evolved at any time. But it would have required the evolution of vertebrates first. And mammals. If we found a rabbit in the Cambrian, evolution as we currently be falsified. But that does not mean that design is the explanation. It would just mean that our current explanation isn’t.
If we found a pre-cambrian "rabbit", then, evolutionary theory (RM & NS, basically, generate everything we see in biology) "as we know it" would not be falsified, but rather timelines, lineages and categorizations might have to be adjusted to accommodate the existence of that creature and an appropriate preceding lineage, correct?William J Murray
May 7, 2015
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Dr. Hunter comments here on the fact that Darwinism is a bad scientific theory that continuously generates ‘epicycle theories’ to cover up embarrassing failed predictions:
“Being an evolutionist means there is no bad news. If new species appear abruptly in the fossil record, that just means evolution operates in spurts. If species then persist for eons with little modification, that just means evolution takes long breaks. If clever mechanisms are discovered in biology, that just means evolution is smarter than we imagined. If strikingly similar designs are found in distant species, that just means evolution repeats itself. If significant differences are found in allied species, that just means evolution sometimes introduces new designs rapidly. If no likely mechanism can be found for the large-scale change evolution requires, that just means evolution is mysterious. If adaptation responds to environmental signals, that just means evolution has more foresight than was thought. If major predictions of evolution are found to be false, that just means evolution is more complex than we thought.” ~ Cornelius Hunter “When their expectations turn out to be false, evolutionists respond by adding more epicycles to their theory that the species arose spontaneously from chance events. But that doesn’t mean the science has confirmed evolution as Velasco suggests. True, evolutionists have remained steadfast in their certainty, but that says more about evolutionists than about the empirical science.” ~ Cornelius Hunter Here’s That Algae Study That Decouples Phylogeny and Competition – June 17, 2014 Excerpt: “With each new absurdity another new complicated just-so story is woven into evolutionary theory. As Lakatos explained, some theories simply are not falsifiable. But as a result they sacrifice realism and parsimony.” - Cornelius Hunter http://darwins-god.blogspot.com/2014/06/heres-that-algae-study-that-decouples.html audio: Darwin’s (Many Failed) Predictions: An Interview with Cornelius Hunter, Part I and II http://www.evolutionnews.org/2009/06/darwins_failed_predictions_an021311.html http://www.evolutionnews.org/2009/06/darwins_failed_predictions_an_1021321.html Chuan He: Evolution Created Epigenetics - Cornelius Hunter - PhD in Biophysics - May 3, 2015 Excerpt: They never predicted it, then they denied it could be heritable, and then they denied it could cause lasting change. “It” in this case is epigenetics and in spite of being wrong, wrong and wrong again, and in spite of the fact that there is no scientific explanation for how epigenetics could have evolved, evolutionists nonetheless insist that it, in fact, must have evolved. Evolution loses every battle but claims to win the war. http://darwins-god.blogspot.com/2015/05/chuan-he-evolution-created-epigenetics.html
Without a testable demarcation criteria so as to separate Darwinism from pseudo-science, whatever Darwinian explanations might be, they are certainly not scientific. Here are a few supplemental quotes that are of related interest:
Anti-Science Irony Excerpt: In response to a letter from Asa Gray, professor of biology at Harvard University, Darwin declared: “I am quite conscious that my speculations run quite beyond the bounds of true science.” When questioned further by Gray, Darwin confirmed Gray’s suspicions: “What you hint at generally is very, very true: that my work is grievously hypothetical, and large parts are by no means worthy of being called induction.” Darwin had turned against the use of scientific principles in developing his theory of evolution. http://www.darwinthenandnow.com/2011/10/anti-science-irony/ An Early Critique of Darwin Warned of a Lower Grade of Degradation - Cornelius Hunter - Dec. 22, 2012 Excerpt: "Many of your wide conclusions are based upon assumptions which can neither be proved nor disproved. Why then express them in the language & arrangements of philosophical induction?" (Sedgwick to Darwin - 1859),,, And anticipating the fixity-of-species strawman, Sedgwick explained to the Sage of Kent (Darwin) that he had conflated the observable fact of change of time (development) with the explanation of how it came about. Everyone agreed on development, but the key question of its causes and mechanisms remained. Darwin had used the former as a sort of proof of a particular explanation for the latter. “We all admit development as a fact of history;” explained Sedgwick, “but how came it about?”,,, For Darwin, warned Sedgwick, had made claims well beyond the limits of science. Darwin issued truths that were not likely ever to be found anywhere “but in the fertile womb of man’s imagination.” The fertile womb of man’s imagination. What a cogent summary of evolutionary theory. Sedgwick made more correct predictions in his short letter than all the volumes of evolutionary literature to come. http://darwins-god.blogspot.com/2012/12/an-early-critique-of-darwin-warned-of.html SKEPTICS OF DARWINIAN THEORY Sedgwick to Darwin "...I have read your book with more pain than pleasure. Parts of it I admired greatly, parts I laughed at till my sides were almost sore; other parts I read with absolute sorrow, because I think them utterly false and grievously mischievous." Adam Sedgwick (1785-1873) - one of the founders of modern geology. - The Spectator, 1860 http://veritas-ucsb.org/library/origins/quotes/critics.html
Verse and Music:
2 Peter 1:16 For we did not follow cleverly devised stories when we told you about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ in power, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. MercyMe – Flawless (Official Music Video) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjLlLPZderk
bornagain77
May 7, 2015
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It is interesting to note the context in which the infamous pre-Cambrian rabbit was uttered: When asked what would falsify Darwinism, J. B. S. Haldane, one of the founders of population genetics, did not refer to any laboratory test to perform, but instead stated that a ‘rabbit fossil in pre-Cambrian rocks would do quite nicely’.
Five Questions Evolutionists Would Rather Dodge 5. Testability What evidence would convince you that evolution is false? If no such evidence exists, or indeed could exist, how can evolution be a testable scientific theory?,,, The evolutionist J. B. S. Haldane, when asked what would convince him that evolution was false, replied that finding a rabbit fossil in pre-Cambrian rocks would do quite nicely. Such a fossil would, by standard geological dating, be out of sequence by several hundreds of millions of years. Certainly such a finding, if rigorously confirmed, would overturn the current understanding of the history of life. But it would not overturn evolution. Haldane’s rabbit is easily enough explained as an evolutionary convergence, in which essentially the same structure or life form evolves twice. In place of a common underlying intelligent design, evolutionists invoke evolutionary convergence whenever confronted with similar biological structures that cannot reasonably be traced back to a common evolutionary ancestor. So long as some unknown or unexplored evolutionary pathway might have led to the formation of some biological structure or organism, evolutionists prefer it over alternative explanations such as intelligent design. And since the unknown and unexplored allow for an infinity of loopholes, the committed evolutionist regards Darwinian and other materialist explanations of life’s origin and subsequent development as always trumping alternative explanations, regardless of the evidence. - By William A. Dembski
That was a very interesting ‘non-laboratory’ test of evolution for Haldane to propose to falsify Darwinism since Haldane had played a large part in working out the mathematical foundation of Darwinism:
J.B.S. Haldane worked out the mathematics of allele frequency change at a single gene locus under a broad range of conditions. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_genetics#History
That should tell you something very important right there about the non-scientific foundation of Darwinism, when one of the founding figures of population genetics does not even propose a laboratory test to test his own mathematics against to see if his mathematics of neo-Darwinism are true, but instead proposes a highly hypothetical historical contingency to test against! To say that is an unsatisfactory scientific test to test the validity of a theory against would be a severe understatement! It is easy to see why Haldane did not propose a rigorous laboratory test to see if his mathematical model was true. When applied rigorously, the mathematics of population genetics falsifies Darwinism:
Evolution And Probabilities: A Response to Jason Rosenhouse – August 2011 Excerpt: The equations of population genetics predict that – assuming an effective population size of 100,000 individuals per generation, and a generation turnover time of 5 years – according to Richard Sternberg’s calculations and based on equations of population genetics applied in the Durrett and Schmidt paper, that one may reasonably expect two specific co-ordinated mutations to achieve fixation in the timeframe of around 43.3 million years. When one considers the magnitude of the engineering fete, such a scenario is found to be devoid of credibility. https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/evolution-and-probabilities-a-response-to-jason-rosenhouse/ Using Numerical Simulation to Test the Validity of Neo-Darwinian Theory - 2008 Abstract: Evolutionary genetic theory has a series of apparent “fatal flaws” which are well known to population geneticists, but which have not been effectively communicated to other scientists or the public. These fatal flaws have been recognized by leaders in the field for many decades—based upon logic and mathematical formulations. However population geneticists have generally been very reluctant to openly acknowledge these theoretical problems, and a cloud of confusion has come to surround each issue. Numerical simulation provides a definitive tool for empirically testing the reality of these fatal flaws and can resolve the confusion. The program Mendel’s Accountant (Mendel) was developed for this purpose, and it is the first biologically-realistic forward-time population genetics numerical simulation program. This new program is a powerful research and teaching tool. When any reasonable set of biological parameters are used, Mendel provides overwhelming empirical evidence that all of the “fatal flaws” inherent in evolutionary genetic theory are real. This leaves evolutionary genetic theory effectively falsified—with a degree of certainty which should satisfy any reasonable and open-minded person. http://www.icr.org/i/pdf/technical/Using-Numerical-Simulation-to-Test-the-Validity-of-Neo-Darwinian-Theory.pdf
Even Richard Lewontin, Mr. 'divine foot in the door' himself, admits that, in regards to population genetics, ‘there are really no measurements that match the quantities’
Lynn Margulis Criticizes Neo-Darwinism in Discover Magazine (Updated) – Casey Luskin April 12, 2011 Excerpt: Population geneticist Richard Lewontin gave a talk here at UMass Amherst about six years ago, and he mathemetized all of it–changes in the population, random mutation, sexual selection, cost and benefit. At the end of his talk he said, “You know, we’ve tried to test these ideas in the field and the lab, and there are really no measurements that match the quantities I’ve told you about.” This just appalled me. So I said, “Richard Lewontin, you are a great lecturer to have the courage to say it’s gotten you nowhere. But then why do you continue to do this work?” And he looked around and said, “It’s the only thing I know how to do, and if I don’t do it I won’t get grant money.” - Lynn Margulis – biologist http://www.evolutionnews.org/2011/04/lynn_margulis_criticizes_neo-d045691.html
Contrary to what Darwinists seem to believe about science, all solid scientific theories have rigorous 'measurements that match the quantities' and are falsifiable by experimentation in which measurements might not match predicted quantities. ,,, Hence Berlinski's question:
I disagree [with Paul R. Gross’ assertion] that Darwin’s theory is as “solid as any explanation in science.” Disagree? I regard the claim as preposterous. Quantum electrodynamics is accurate to thirteen or so decimal places; so, too, general relativity. A leaf trembling in the wrong way would suffice to shatter either theory. What can Darwinian theory offer in comparison? David Berlinski
Popper is even more blunt:
“In so far as a scientific statement speaks about reality, it must be falsifiable; and in so far as it is not falsifiable, it does not speak about reality.” Karl Popper – The Two Fundamental Problems of the Theory of Knowledge (2014 edition), Routledge
Moreover, Intelligent Design, instead of hiding behind non-falsifiable pre-Cambrian rabbits as Darwinism does, invites rigid laboratory testing to try to falsify its claim that intelligence, and only intelligence, can produce functional information:
The Law of Physicodynamic Incompleteness – David L. Abel Excerpt: “If decision-node programming selections are made randomly or by law rather than with purposeful intent, no non-trivial (sophisticated) function will spontaneously arise.” If only one exception to this null hypothesis were published, the hypothesis would be falsified. Falsification would require an experiment devoid of behind-the-scenes steering. Any artificial selection hidden in the experimental design would disqualify the experimental falsification. After ten years of continual republication of the null hypothesis with appeals for falsification, no falsification has been provided. The time has come to extend this null hypothesis into a formal scientific prediction: “No non trivial algorithmic/computational utility will ever arise from chance and/or necessity alone.” https://www.academia.edu/9957206/The_Law_of_Physicodynamic_Incompleteness_Scirus_Topic_Page_ It’s (Much) Easier to Falsify Intelligent Design than Darwinian Evolution – Michael Behe, PhD https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_T1v_VLueGk
Of related interest: Lakatos tipped toed around the fact that Darwinism has no demarcation criteria to separate it from pseudo-science,,,
A Philosophical Question…Does Evolution have a Hard Core ? Some Concluding Food for Thought In my research on the demarcation problem, I have noticed philosophers of science attempting to balance (usually unconsciously) a consistent demarcation criteria against the the disruptive effects that it’s application might have with regard to the academic status quo (and evolution in particular)… Few philosophers of science will even touch such matters, but (perhaps unintentionally) Imre Lakatos does offer us a peek at how one might go about balancing these schizophrenic demands (in Motterlini1999: 24) “Let us call the first school militant positivism; you will understand why later on. The problem of this school was to find certain demarcation criteria similar to those I have outlined, but these also had to satisfy certain boundary conditions, as a mathematician would say. I am referring to a definite set of people to which most scientists as well as Popper and Carnap would belong. These people think that there are goodies and baddies among scientific theories, and once you have defined a demarcation criterion. you should divide all your theories between the two groups. You would end up. for example, with a goodies list including Copernicus’s (Theory1), Galileo’s (T2), Kepler’s (T3), Newton’s (T4) … and Einstein’s (T5), along with (but this is just my supposition) Darwin’s (T6). Let me just anticipate that nobody to date has yet found a demarcation criterion according to which Darwin can be described as scientific, but this is exactly what we are looking for.” So basically, the demarcation problem is a fun game philosophers enjoy playing, but when they realize the implications regarding the theory of evolution, they quickly back off… http://www.samizdat.qc.ca/cosmos/philo/hardcore_pg.htm
Lakatos, although he tipped toed around the failure of Darwinism to have a rigid demarcation criteria, he was brave enough to state that a good scientific theory will at least make successful predictions in science and a bad theory will generate ‘epicycle theories’ in science to cover up embarrassing failed predictions:
Science and Pseudoscience (transcript) - “In degenerating programmes, however, theories are fabricated only in order to accommodate known facts” – Imre Lakatos (November 9, 1922 – February 2, 1974) a philosopher of mathematics and science, , quote as stated in 1973 LSE Scientific Method Lecture http://www2.lse.ac.uk/philosophy/about/lakatos/scienceandpseudosciencetranscript.aspx Here’s the audio: Science and Pseudoscience – Lakatos – audio lecture http://richmedia.lse.ac.uk/philosophy/2002_LakatosScienceAndPseudoscience128.mp3 In his 1973 LSE Scientific Method Lecture 1[12] he also claimed that “nobody to date has yet found a demarcation criterion according to which Darwin can be described as scientific”. Almost 20 years after Lakatos’s 1973 challenge to the scientificity of Darwin, in her 1991 The Ant and the Peacock, LSE lecturer and ex-colleague of Lakatos, Helena Cronin, attempted to establish that Darwinian theory was empirically scientific in respect of at least being supported by evidence of likeness in the diversity of life forms in the world, explained by descent with modification. She wrote that: “our usual idea of corroboration as requiring the successful prediction of novel facts…Darwinian theory was not strong on temporally novel predictions.” … per wikipedia
bornagain77
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111bornagain77
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"Yarko, you asked: Who’s talking about a “design” process? Aurelio Smith had posted: Natural selection is the usual phrase attributed to the process of environmental design. It was all right there in my post." Sorry Joe. That's what I get for responding to a comment without reading the entire thread. My bad. "BTW, Yarko, the whole point of natural selection was to have design without a designer" No it wasn't. It was to explain the diversity of life that we see around us.Yarko Matkewski
May 7, 2015
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@Mapou
Which is more crackpottish in your opinion: time travel or the apocalyptic brain? LOL
The apocalyptic brain, of course, hands down. ;-) Enjoy the blunt, dood!eigenstate
May 7, 2015
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@Barry,
UPDATE: In the comments eigenstate pulls Haldane’s famous “rabbit in the Cambrian” out of his hat. I will address that here: Everyone knows there are no rabbit fossils in the strata that have been labeled “Cambrian.” First, eigen’s sputtering to the contrary notwithstanding, the primary reason a stratum would be called “Cambrian” in the first place is because of the absence of rabbit fossils.
Are you just making stuff up here on the fly or is there a source for this claim you could point me to? "Cambrian" is an old name for "Wales", where the rock layers they are named for were discovered. The geological strata are called "strata" because of how the rocks are found -- they occur in identifiable layers, with boundaries that show differences in the makeup and configurations of the rock. The stacking, inclusion and cross-cutting of the rock formations is used to establish a general chronology, and isochron dating is the primary tool for estimating concrete age values for the various strata. If you have a source that argues for "establishing the Cambrian as the Cambrian because there's no rabbits [or any mammals]", I'd be interested to see that.
Set that aside for the moment and consider this. The fact that there are no rabbit fossils in the Cambrian strata is a datum. It is a datum for evolutionary theory; it is a datum for young earth creationists; it is a datum for ID proponents. It is a fact on the ground in the same way that people are stuck to the earth with a force of 1G is a fact on the ground. Saying “a rabbit in a Cambrian stratum would destroy Darwinism” is equivalent to saying “if people start floating off into space it would destroy general relativity.”
I'm not sure what effect that would have on GR or SR. I think you mean to say it would be problematic for our model of gravitation, and that would indeed be the case. Since GR predicts that mass will warp space/time, we might assume here that if gravitational effects are gone the warping is too, but anyway...
Well, people are not floating off into space and they are not about to. No rabbits have been found in the Cambrian strata and none ever will be. Haldane’s observation amounts to nothing more than “if the facts were different the theory to explain those facts would have to be different too.” It is trivially true and singularly unhelpful.
It's only true and banal in both cases because everyone understands that that those scenarios are not like the universe we actually inhabit. The banality is a reflection of solidity of the model, in other words.
I take it that Berlinski’s point is very different. The mathematical models of quantum electrodynamics and general relativity make extremely precise predictions (13 decimal points). It follows that those theories have exposed themselves to an enormously high degree of “risk,” because if an observation were to vary from prediction by even an astronomically small degree it would falsify the theory.
The "significant digits of precision" is no more threatening than finding a single fossil where it can't be resolved with evolutionary timelines. Evolutionary theory is just as at risk as GR. There's no magic in "to the 11th decimal point", here.
Now consider the following exchange: Barry: And yet unlike respectable scientific theories, there is not universal agreement on a single one of those details that sets [evolutionary] theory apart as an explanatory mechanism. eigenstate: so what? Well, here is what. Paul R. Gross’ asserted that Darwin’s theory is as “solid as any explanation in science.” Berlinski retorted that the assertion is preposterous. The point of the OP is that Berlinski is certainly correct. There is not even agreement among evolutionary theorists on what the model should be in the first place; far less has anyone developed a model that would make exquisitely precise predictions equivalent to those made by quantum electrodynamics and general relativity. Thank you eigenstate for confirming Berlinski’s point with your “so what.’
I don't think you are getting what "solid" means here. Significant digits of precision is cool, but biological is a systems model rather than a mathematical/physics model. At some point done the road, we'll understand enough to collapse the biology down to chemistry math and thus physics math, all with the same kind of precision (because it's all the same dynamics at the most fundamental level -- fermions and bosons, as they say), but "solid" for biology obtains in statistical models and feedback loops that explain and predict the diversification and changing characteristic of biological life. If we had some kind of prediction that was "precise to the 13th significant digit" that we wanted to exalt in Biology that wouldn't make evolution any more solid (indeed, I'm sure we could find something passes muster that way in our biological calculations). More "solidness" obtains in continuing advances in our knowledge for how and why different phenomena happen the way they do in biology. How does the genetic code implement redundancy along the lines of scale-free networks, such that some configurations are conserved? We have a good start on it, but there's a lot more "solidness" to be had there, and it's not a matter of predicting a location to some arbitrary precision. The project of evolutionary theory has an enormous number of answers to pursue because of the variegation and complexity of phenomena that occur at the level at which it operates. Physics *is* rocket science, but it has some nice advantages in terms of its maths and models because it deals at a fundamental level, with fundamental dynamics. Even forgiving Berlinski's (apparent, I've not read his comments on this beyond what you've represented, nor do I have enough interest in the guy to do so) goof on supposing that "solid" in terms of biological science delivering the goods was somehow analogous to predicting the perihelion of Mercury to some impressive number of digits of precision, his point, which you've adopted about universal agreement doesn't even apply. You didn't address my question about you (or Berlinski's if you want to pass the buck to him) understanding about "universal agreement" on GR. Does that "universal agreement" you/Berlinski are using as your measure exist for GR, in your view?eigenstate
May 7, 2015
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BTW, Yarko, the whole point of natural selection was to have design without a designerJoe
May 7, 2015
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Yarko, you asked: Who’s talking about a “design” process? Aurelio Smith had posted: Natural selection is the usual phrase attributed to the process of environmental design. It was all right there in my post.Joe
May 7, 2015
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Joe: "Whatever survives isn’t a very good designing process." Who's talking about a "design" process?Yarko Matkewski
May 7, 2015
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Natural selection is the usual phrase attributed to the process of environmental design.
Whatever survives isn't a very good designing process.Joe
May 7, 2015
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"Once again, I don’t understand what you’re saying. The rabbit evolved once. Why couldn’t a rabbit-like creature have evolved in the pre-cambrian and we just don’t happen to have any evidence of the precursor species?" A rabbit like creature could have evolved at any time. But it would have required the evolution of vertebrates first. And mammals. If we found a rabbit in the Cambrian, evolution as we currently be falsified. But that does not mean that design is the explanation. It would just mean that our current explanation isn't.Yarko Matkewski
May 7, 2015
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Z said:
Not everyone on this blog accepts common descent. But you’re right. A rabbit won’t be found in the Cambrian because it would predate any plausible ancestor.
Once again, I don't understand what you're saying. The rabbit evolved once. Why couldn't a rabbit-like creature have evolved in the pre-cambrian and we just don't happen to have any evidence of the precursor species?William J Murray
May 7, 2015
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Z: It would mean the rabbit preceded any plausible ancestor. So the falsification of evolution requires simply showing an example of a fossil without any plausible ancestor? The problem is that to evolutionists, anything is a plausible ancestor. A 1m wolf like land mammal is a plausible ancestor for a 5m fully aquatic whale. And if there is no plausible ancestor, they propose an undiscovered "common ancestor". Ancestors??? We don't need no stinking ancestors!!!NetResearchGuy
May 7, 2015
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William J Murray: Rabbits obviously evolved once. Not everyone on this blog accepts common descent. But you're right. A rabbit won't be found in the Cambrian because it would predate any plausible ancestor. Similarly for this question: Could griffins and centaurs be dimly remembered real-life organisms?Zachriel
May 7, 2015
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Zachriel said:
No. In evolutionary terms, rabbits are highly derived.
I'm not sure what you mean here. Rabbits obviously evolved once. Are you saying something like a rabbit could not have evolved before the Cambrian from a entire line of evolutionary precursors that have not been found? If this is what you are saying, can you please explain why?William J Murray
May 7, 2015
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In evolutionary terms, rabbits are highly derived.
In evolutionary terms, all extant organisms are highly derived.Joe
May 7, 2015
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Evolutionary theory predicts no rabbits will be found in the Cambrian. No rabbits have been found in the Cambrian. Therefore evolution is true. You people need to learn how to logic right.Mung
May 7, 2015
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Eigenstate:
Well share the wealth, give me a turn at the gigantic spliff you’re workin’. That is some seriously whack herbs, dude.
I only inhale Rocky Mountain grown, top-shelf weed. :-D
Hawking’s conjecture about time travel only works *forward*, by the way, so your “what if” doesn’t work there if you know Hawking. But that would be nitpicking when we’re focused on tokin’, yeah?
Nope. Hawkins fully accepts the possibility of time travel via a closed timelike curve (as suggested by that fruitcake Godel) because, he says, "it is not forbidden in Einstein's universe." But I'll let you in on a little secret. There is neither forward nor backward time travel. It's all crackpot nonsense. There is only the ever changing present. But don't tell the atheist anything. Let him simmer in his ignorance. :-D
I heard a rumor Hawking has turned his attention to the book of Revelation, some hypothesis he has about the book and neurology. Those wacky scientists!! ;-)
Which is more crackpottish in your opinion: time travel or the apocalyptic brain? LOLMapou
May 7, 2015
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