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Berlinski’s Question Remains Unanswered

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In a recent post I asked the following question.

I have a question for non-ID proponents only and it is very simple: Is there even one tenet of modern evolutionary theory that is universally agreed upon by the proponents of modern evolutionary theory?

Then I waited for the answers to come in. I was not disappointed, and I would like to express a hearty “thank you” to the proponents of modern evolutionary theory who participated in the exercise.

I have gone through the comments, and the proponents have nominated the following list as tenets on which all proponents of modern evolutionary theory agree:

1. Common descent

2. Modern organisms descend from very ancient ones.

3. The differences among related lineages have accumulated over many generations of change.

4. The basis of (some of) the differences among individuals is heritable.

5. The relative success of those heritable traits is the basis of evolutionary change.

6. Selection is an important evolution force.

7. Populations connected by gene flow evolve together absent very strong selection pull each population in different directions.

8. Selection is important (I am not sure how this is different from 6).

9. Drift exists.

10. Allopatric speciation is possible.

11. Most speciation processes fit somewhere between the extremes of sympatric speciation and allopatric speciation.

12. All of modern life shares common ancestry, HGT and orphan genes notwithstanding.

13. The following mechanisms of genetic change cause change in lineages, with a bias against reversal:
Mutation (point, indel, duplication and rearrangement)
Gene Conversion
Recombination (several mechanisms including HGT)

14. A parallel process of concentration/dilution of such variant alleles occurs (concentration of one is inevitably dilution of the other), by both sample error (drift) and systematic bias (selection).

15. Only frequency-dependent selection can oppose the progress of such an allele through to the fixation of one variant and elimination of the other. This is rare, so origin-fixation is the norm, long-term. [Later withdrawn]

16. Iterated occurrences of such fixations inevitably change lineages.

17. Isolated gene pools diverge.

18. Species differences are fundamentally due to the tendency of this divergence to proceed beyond the point of interfertility (isolation through prezygotic and postzygotic mechanisms).

19. Higher taxa result from ongoing divergences of historic species.

20. Transition-transversion biases in substitution are due to a biochemical tendency increasing yields of one product over the other.

21. Codon position biases occur and are due to the relative effects of selection and drift on synonymous vs nonsynonymous sites.

OK then. Let’s take a look at this list. They seem to fall into the following five categories.

Category 1: Who doesn’t believe that?

Pretty much everyone on the planet would agree with the following proposition: Animals and plants are different now than they were in the past. Thus, the proposition – while at some trivial level a tenant of modern evolutionary theory – is not that which sets it apart from other theories and accounts for its unique purported explanatory power. Even young earth creationists believe it. Therefore, these propositions cannot be the basis for any claim that the theory (as opposed to some other theory) is true. From the above list the following fall into this category: 1, 2, 3, 7, 9, 10, 12, 14, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20 and 21.

Category 2: Trivial

4. The basis of (some of) the differences among individuals is heritable.

Yes, all evolution proponents agree that genetics exists.

Category 3. It is simply not true that all evolution proponents believe it

It is simply not true, for example, that all evolution proponents believe that natural selection plays more than a non-trivial role in the process. It is also not true that all proponents believe sympatric speciation occurs. 5, 8 and 11 fall into this category. See here and here.

Category 4. I Don’t know what claim is being made

13. The following mechanisms of genetic change cause change in lineages, with a bias against reversal:
Mutation (point, indel, duplication and rearrangement)
Gene Conversion
Recombination (several mechanisms including HGT)

Is the proponent of this claim stating that genetic change and only genetic change causes change in a lineage? If so, it is clearly not the case that all proponents of the theory agree with this; indeed most of them would dispute it. Is the proponent claiming merely that genetics change occurs and somehow that gets fixed in a species? If that is the case, it would fall under category 1.

Catategory 5. Withdrawn: claim 15.

CONCLUSIONS

My suspicions have been confirmed. Proponents of modern evolutionary theory all agree on a set of propositions that even most fervent young earth creationist would also agree on. And nothing more as far as I can tell.

What I was really trying to get at was this: Is there any “core” proposition on which all proponents of modern evolutionary theory agree. By “core” proposition, I do not mean basic facts of biology that pretty much everyone from YECs to Richard Dawkins agrees are true. I mean a proposition upon which the theory stands or falls, and, as I said above, sets it apart from other theories and accounts for its unique purported explanatory power

I have in mind a proposition that would answer David Berlinski’s famous question:

I disagree [with Paul R. Gross’ assertion] that Darwin’s theory is as “solid as any explanation in science.” Disagree? I regard the claim as preposterous. Quantum electrodynamics is accurate to thirteen or so decimal places; so, too, general relativity. A leaf trembling in the wrong way would suffice to shatter either theory. What can Darwinian theory offer in comparison?

Indeed. What does modern evolutionary theory offer in comparison? How can the theory ever hope to be as “solid as any explanation in science” when its proponents cannot seem to agree on a single tenet, the falsification of which would, in Berlinski’s words, shatter the theory?

UPDATE:

In the comments eigenstate pulls Haldane’s famous “rabbit in the Cambrian” out of his hat. I will address that here:

Everyone knows there are no rabbit fossils in the strata that have been labeled “Cambrian.” First, eigen’s sputtering to the contrary notwithstanding, the primary reason a stratum would be called “Cambrian” in the first place is because of the absence of rabbit fossils.

Set that aside for the moment and consider this. The fact that there are no rabbit fossils in the Cambrian strata is a datum. It is a datum for evolutionary theory; it is a datum for young earth creationists; it is a datum for ID proponents. It is a fact on the ground in the same way that people are stuck to the earth with a force of 1G is a fact on the ground. Saying “a rabbit in a Cambrian stratum would destroy Darwinism” is equivalent to saying “if people start floating off into space it would destroy general relativity.” Well, people are not floating off into space and they are not about to. No rabbits have been found in the Cambrian strata and none ever will be. Haldane’s observation amounts to nothing more than “if the facts were different the theory to explain those facts would have to be different too.” It is trivially true and singularly unhelpful.

I take it that Berlinski’s point is very different. The mathematical models of quantum electrodynamics and general relativity make extremely precise predictions (13 decimal points). It follows that those theories have exposed themselves to an enormously high degree of “risk,” because if an observation were to vary from prediction by even an astronomically small degree it would falsify the theory.

Now consider the following exchange:

Barry: And yet unlike respectable scientific theories, there is not universal agreement on a single one of those details that sets [evolutionary] theory apart as an explanatory mechanism.

eigenstate: so what?

Well, here is what. Paul R. Gross’ asserted that Darwin’s theory is as “solid as any explanation in science.” Berlinski retorted that the assertion is preposterous. The point of the OP is that Berlinski is certainly correct. There is not even agreement among evolutionary theorists on what the model should be in the first place; far less has anyone developed a model that would make exquisitely precise predictions equivalent to those made by quantum electrodynamics and general relativity. Thank you eigenstate for confirming Berlinski’s point with your “so what.’

Comments
Barry Arrington: Well, I can’t be certain that people are not going to start floating off into space either. You’ve got me there. Even though no one has ever landed on the far side of the Moon, we would expect the laws of gravity to still apply. What law or principle applies to the Cambrian rabbit? Why wouldn't we expect a Cambrian rabbit? William J Murray: Could it not be that we just haven’t uncovered the pre-Cambrian rabbit’s ancestors? No. In evolutionary terms, rabbits are highly derived.Zachriel
May 7, 2015
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Zachriel said:
It would mean the rabbit preceded any plausible ancestor.
Why's that? Could it not be that we just haven't uncovered the pre-Cambrian rabbit's ancestors?William J Murray
May 7, 2015
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Z @ 30. Well, I can't be certain that people are not going to start floating off into space either. You've got me there.Barry Arrington
May 7, 2015
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Barry Arrington: No rabbits have been found in the Cambrian strata and none ever will be. Why? How can you be sure?Zachriel
May 7, 2015
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UPDATE: In the comments eigenstate pulls Haldane’s famous “rabbit in the Cambrian” out of his hat. I will address that here: Everyone knows there are no rabbit fossils in the strata that have been labeled "Cambrian." First, eigen's sputtering to the contrary notwithstanding, the primary reason a stratum would be called "Cambrian" in the first place is because of the absence of rabbit fossils. Set that aside for the moment and consider this. The fact that there are no rabbit fossils in the Cambrian strata is a datum. It is a datum for evolutionary theory; it is a datum for young earth creationists; it is a datum for ID proponents. It is a fact on the ground in the same way that people are stuck to the earth with a force of 1G is a fact on the ground. Saying "a rabbit in a Cambrian stratum would destroy Darwinism" is equivalent to saying "if people start floating off into space it would destroy general relativity." Well, people are not floating off into space and they are not about to. No rabbits have been found in the Cambrian strata and none ever will be. Haldane’s observation amounts to nothing more than “if the facts were different the theory to explain those facts would have to be different too.” It is trivially true and singularly unhelpful. I take it that Berlinski’s point is very different. The mathematical models of quantum electrodynamics and general relativity make extremely precise predictions (13 decimal points). It follows that those theories have exposed themselves to an enormously high degree of “risk,” because if an observation were to vary from prediction by even an astronomically small degree it would falsify the theory. Now consider the following exchange:
Barry: And yet unlike respectable scientific theories, there is not universal agreement on a single one of those details that sets [evolutionary] theory apart as an explanatory mechanism.
eigenstate: so what?
Well, here is what. Paul R. Gross’ asserted that Darwin’s theory is as “solid as any explanation in science.” Berlinski retorted that the assertion is preposterous. The point of the OP is that Berlinski is certainly correct. There is not even agreement among evolutionary theorists on what the model should be in the first place; far less has anyone developed a model that would make exquisitely precise predictions equivalent to those made by quantum electrodynamics and general relativity. Thank you eigenstate for confirming Berlinski’s point with your “so what.’Barry Arrington
May 7, 2015
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If we found a griffin, what would that mean in terms of the theory of evolution?
Nothing, as there isn't any theory of evolution. ;)Joe
May 7, 2015
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@Mapou,
What if Darwin or some other joker traveled back in time with a rabbit to the Cambrian period and left the rabbit back in time? That would be a good materialist explanation, IMO. They believe in this sort of pseudoscientific crap. Heck, famous atheist Stephen Hawking believes in the possibility of time travel. If you can believe in time travel, you can believe in anything.
Well share the wealth, give me a turn at the gigantic spliff you're workin'. That is some seriously whack herbs, dude. Hawking's conjecture about time travel only works *forward*, by the way, so your "what if" doesn't work there if you know Hawking. But that would be nitpicking when we're focused on tokin', yeah? I heard a rumor Hawking has turned his attention to the book of Revelation, some hypothesis he has about the book and neurology. Those wacky scientists!! ;-) ETA: blockquote fixeigenstate
May 7, 2015
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William J Murray: Why would a rabbit in the pre-Cambrian destroy evolutionary theory? Is it impossible for known evolutionary forces to produce a rabbit before the time frame we refer to as the Cambrian? It would mean the rabbit preceded any plausible ancestor. Could griffins and centaurs be dimly remembered real-life organisms? Why or why would you not expect to find the remains of such a creature? If we found a griffin, what would that mean in terms of the theory of evolution?Zachriel
May 7, 2015
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What if Darwin or some other joker traveled back in time with a rabbit to the Cambrian period and left the rabbit back in time? That would be a good materialist explanation, IMO. They believe in this sort of pseudoscientific crap. Heck, famous atheist Stephen Hawking believes in the possibility of time travel. If you can believe in time travel, you can believe in anything.Mapou
May 7, 2015
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@WJM, <Why would a rabbit in the pre-Cambrian destroy evolutionary theory? Is it impossible for known evolutionary forces to produce a rabbit before the time frame we refer to as the Cambrian? Yes, you've got it, man! (Probably better to say "during" the Cambrian than "before", but you've got the basic idea.)eigenstate
May 7, 2015
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Why would a rabbit in the pre-Cambrian destroy evolutionary theory? Is it impossible for known evolutionary forces to produce a rabbit before the time frame we refer to as the Cambrian?William J Murray
May 7, 2015
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Yes, I've seen it before, Joe. Sometimes by you, and on one occasion, on a presidential-election thread in 2000. I love it! It's partly, just in case the other guy hasn't really processed the enormity of his failure; and partly because of it's wonderfully consonant, ominous, doom-laden brevity!Axel
May 7, 2015
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Well eigenstate thanks to the tetrapod tracks found in Poland and the finding of Tiktaalik, the succession now looks like this: fish-> tetrapods-> fishapods Whoopsie...Joe
May 7, 2015
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@drc466
Regarding “rabbit in the Cambrian” as falsification: Evolutionary logic: 1) Define Cambrian layer: Fossil layer without any modern mammals in it
"Cambrian" is a geological classification. It is not defined or identified with respect to the presence or absence of any fossils or taphonomic features. It is a time measurement.
2) Define Layer with rabbit in it: Post-Cambrian
No, see above -- the geological strata are not defined by their fossils (if any). Rather, fossils are dated by their presence in various strata.
3) Possibility of finding rabbit in Cambrian, under Evolution’s circular logic: 0%
See above.
You know as well as I do that layers are “dated” by the types of fossils in them, and that any fossil/layer that shows up where it “shouldn’t” be is simply declared out-of-place, inverted, contamination, etc.
I don't know that, and geologists don't know that. Dating of strata is established by isochrons, vertical stacking, inclusion, cross-cutting, etc. Seriously go do a little googling on this, or talk to any geologist, and you will see that what you "know" you don't know.
“Rabbit in the Cambrian” is the fossil equivalent of “Dino DNA in fossilized Dinosaur bone”. It happens. It’s excused/explained away. Next.
That avoids the question I was answering, which was the grounds for falsification. Ideas about denialism or conspiracy theories do not change the falsification dynamics for the theory: if you find examples where the chronology, the developmental trajectory can't work, your model is busted. Full stop. It doesn't matter if this scientist or layperson or that one wants to dismiss it, or sweep it under the rug; epistemically, evolution can't work if such evidence is uncovered.
Think I’m overstating the tendency of evolutionists to “explain away” the evidence? Here’s what Wikipedia (yes, the YEC stronghold!) has to say on the subject: “Rabbits are mammals. From the perspective of the philosophy of science, it is doubtful whether the genuine discovery of mammalian fossils in Precambrian rocks would overthrow the theory of evolution instantly, although, if authentic, such a discovery would indicate serious errors in modern understanding about the evolutionary process“. See? No biggie, just means we didn’t completely understand how Evolution worked! (BTW, I expect those last couple sentences on Wikipedia to mysteriously disappear, now that they’ve been used by an anti-evolutionist!)
See above. You are confusing dismissals of the evidence with the unavoidable implications of that evidence. It doesn't matter if any or all want to ignore it: the implications of such evidence are devastating, no matter how much people want to avoid it. If we are considering falsification, that is what matters -- that is the grounds for falsification. Dismissing the evidence in no way diminishes its falsification effects.
See? No biggie, just means we didn’t completely understand how Evolution worked! (BTW, I expect those last couple sentences on Wikipedia to mysteriously disappear, now that they’ve been used by an anti-evolutionist!)
That would be about as "big" as they come, as "biggie" as one could hope for. Which is why it's held out as the simple example it is. Would science collapse, and the Rapture begin? No, but that would be a reboot for the theory. You aren't holding your breath in anticipation of that anymore than I am, but that's just evidence of how well established that part of our scientific understanding has become.
eigenstate
May 7, 2015
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Axel, There was an arcade that had a gunfight game. You against this big cowboy figure. If you lost it said "Sorry partner, you lose". Needless to say we used it as our own...Joe
May 7, 2015
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eigenstate- Please reference this alleged evolutionary theory so we can all see its exact entailments.Joe
May 7, 2015
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Barry, Here's a trick question for you: Do you believe there is "universal agreement" -- this is the term you used, right? -- about relativity in the scientific community? I'm not even talking about all the disagreements and criticisms that were launched a century ago when Einstein produced the model. I'm talking about "universal agreement" in the modern community of physicists. Is there "universal agreement" there, in your view?eigenstate
May 7, 2015
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E @ 1: Regarding "rabbit in the Cambrian" as falsification: Evolutionary logic: 1) Define Cambrian layer: Fossil layer without any modern mammals in it 2) Define Layer with rabbit in it: Post-Cambrian 3) Possibility of finding rabbit in Cambrian, under Evolution's circular logic: 0% You know as well as I do that layers are "dated" by the types of fossils in them, and that any fossil/layer that shows up where it "shouldn't" be is simply declared out-of-place, inverted, contamination, etc. "Rabbit in the Cambrian" is the fossil equivalent of "Dino DNA in fossilized Dinosaur bone". It happens. It's excused/explained away. Next. Think I'm overstating the tendency of evolutionists to "explain away" the evidence? Here's what Wikipedia (yes, the YEC stronghold!) has to say on the subject: "Rabbits are mammals. From the perspective of the philosophy of science, it is doubtful whether the genuine discovery of mammalian fossils in Precambrian rocks would overthrow the theory of evolution instantly, although, if authentic, such a discovery would indicate serious errors in modern understanding about the evolutionary process". See? No biggie, just means we didn't completely understand how Evolution worked! (BTW, I expect those last couple sentences on Wikipedia to mysteriously disappear, now that they've been used by an anti-evolutionist!)drc466
May 7, 2015
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Love that punchy, triumphalist, American coda, Joe : 'You lose !' A terse, emphatic consignment of any possible equivocation to File 13. As much as to say : 'On your way !Axel
May 7, 2015
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@Barry,
And yet unlike respectable scientific theories, there is not universal agreement on a single one of those details that sets the theory apart as an explanatory mechanism.
So what? If you have even a passing familiarity with humans, you will understand that "universal agreement" is an oxymoron for large numbers of humans for just about any proposition. There's no substance or probative value in "universal agreement". There are still groups dedicated to the idea of geocentrism, fercryinoutloud. Why you'd concern yourself at all with "universal agreement" is beyond me.
You don’t understand YEC theory. YECs don’t believe every single critter presently on earth had a representative on the arc. They believe “kinds” were on the arc, and those kinds diversified after they got off. True, they reject universal common descent. But so do some Darwinists.
Was a raised a YEC. Spent untold hours being indoctrinated in YEC theology and, uh, "science" in my youth, including what was then the new-ish "discipline" of baraminology (and it's "ark", Barry, "arc" is a different word, btw). By saying "True, they reject universal common descent", you're OP collapses. If there are "kinds" -- never mind later adaptations and variations within a "baramin", for now -- created by God, YECs are necessarily, unavoidably at odds with modern biology. Common descent is the sine qua non of Darwin's theory. This is the central insight, the most fundamental and far reaching implication of the theory. And it's also strictly anathema to YECs. Which makes your paragraph in the middle of you OP trying to paper that irreconcilable, fundamental opposition with "Animals and plants are different now than they were in the past." comedic gold. That can only be offered as a matter of being disingenuous in what you write, or perhaps (?!) truly not understanding what evolutionary theory holds and what YECs believe. Darwinists like Craig Venter hold that a "single-root" model of the tree of life is problematic, a position that is well grounded (in my view, anyway) based on the horizontal transfer dynamics in the early phases of the the tree's formation ("more bush-like than tree-like in its early stages). But any differences someone like Venter may have with "single root" proponents are internal to the theory, the theory doesn't depend on or entail a "single root", but is a mechanism for development from the root or roots, whichever the case may be. That stands in contrast to the adamant denials of the YEC community, who deny the efficacy and actuality of the basic model itself, the model that just for purposes of isolating a non-negotiable point of disagreement, places humans and other primates as descendants of a common ancestor.eigenstate
May 7, 2015
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bFast #3, Very clear and persuasive reasoning. Thank you! Redundancy seems impossible to accommodate by Darwinian theory.Box
May 7, 2015
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Evolutionary theory states that earlier things came earlier and later things came later, and if later things came earlier and earlier things came later then evolutionary theory would be falsified. You science deniers just need to get over it.Mung
May 7, 2015
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I congratulate Barry for being able to stomach eigenstate's full response. I did not know that it contained:
It is detailed in its proposal — all species share common ancestors.
That is the biggest BS line there is as evolutionism is totally void of details. Universal common descent is totally void of details. This explains why there are evolutionists- confusion and delusion.Joe
May 7, 2015
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E @ 1:
It is detailed in its proposal
And yet unlike respectable scientific theories, there is not universal agreement on a single one of those details that sets the theory apart as an explanatory mechanism. You don't understand YEC theory. YECs don't believe every single critter presently on earth had a representative on the arc. They believe "kinds" were on the arc, and those kinds diversified after they got off. True, they reject universal common descent. But so do some Darwinists.Barry Arrington
May 7, 2015
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eigenstate:
I don’t think you’ve grasped the implications of Haldane’s suggestion.
No, obviously you haven't thought it through. There isn't any evolutionary theory and there isn't any model. Yours can't even account for rabbits. You lose.Joe
May 7, 2015
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eigenstate: A visit from aliens or God showing us how evolution really happened as opposed to the model we have in evolutionary theory. Wow pretty fantastic. Thanks go to you my friend for explaining that something fantasmogorical would so do the trick, even as non-repeatable we know it really would not. Thanks to you my friend for acquiescing to what we all know: Darwinian theory is just plain ole unfalsifiable.groovamos
May 7, 2015
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@Mapou,
Both creationists and Darwinists agree on one thing: Evolution can explain anything that is thrown at it, even a rabbit in the Cambrian. After all, genetically pre-programmed adaptation (e.g., changing bird beaks) is proof that we all evolved from dirt.
No. I don't think you've grasped the implications of Haldane's suggestion. Creationists will often say, putting their conspiracy-theory caps on, "oh, that would just be dismissed or flat out denied". But that evades Haldane's point: if a rabbit (skeleton) were to be found in pre-Cambrian strata, it's back to the drawing board for the theory. For any who are interested in the theory as an actual model of how biology works, that would be an insuperable problem for the current model. Genetically "pre-programmed" (to indulge your anthropic language for the moment) can't possibly account for all the variation and adaptation that is manifest across all the species. If common descent is true as given in the current model, The first genomes would have to have billions of petabytes more storage than it does to accommodate all the "pre-programming" needed. That's another example. If "pre-programming" were to be shown to be necessary and actual as the mechanism for change, including all speciation, rather than inheritance with variation as the source of new information, then evolutionary theory would have to be scrapped. There's no possible way to fit "pre-programming" in the bandwidth and storage resources evolutionary theory identifies. It would have to use some "supernatural storage", or some kind of magical skill of some transcendent agent or something to make that happen, which would obviate modern biological models.eigenstate
May 7, 2015
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@Silver Asiatic,
The basic model of evolution is that rabbits appeared on earth later than Cambrian animals? Ok, that doesn’t say very much. Of course, if we discovered that Neanderthals actually built and raced a fleet of Lamborghini, that would be pretty devastating for evolutionary claims also.
The "safety" here just underscores the established grounding of the theory. If we understand that observing objects floating away from the surface of the earth sans the accelerating forces toward the center of the earth's mass would be a problem for gravitational theory, we all feel pretty "safe" from that eventuality. But that's only because of the equity that the gravitational model has. It's a witness to its efficacy that the falsifications seemed far fetched. Like evolutionary theory, the falsifications are not hard to describe or enumerate, but they do seem quite far fetched, based on our experience. This is a "feature" of those theories, not a "bug".eigenstate
May 7, 2015
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Both creationists and Darwinists agree on one thing: Evolution can explain anything that is thrown at it, even a rabbit in the Cambrian. After all, genetically pre-programmed adaptation (e.g., changing bird beaks) is proof that we all evolved from dirt.Mapou
May 7, 2015
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eigenstate I think that says something about the nature of the theory.
Haldane’s “rabbit in the Cambrian” suffices as a simple example of a devastating find for evolutionary theory’s basic model.
The basic model of evolution is that rabbits appeared on earth later than Cambrian animals? Ok, that doesn't say very much. Of course, if we discovered that Neanderthals actually built and raced a fleet of Lamborghini, that would be pretty devastating for evolutionary claims also.
Discovery of life (say from the deep sea) that wasn’t DNA based and didn’t harness genetic variation, that would do it.
Again, that's pretty safe. If we found some non-carbon based lifeforms on earth, then evolution would be falsified. We haven't found any, so evolutionary theory must be correct?
A visit from aliens or God showing us how evolution really happened as opposed to the model we have in evolutionary theory.
That sounds sort of like "only God knows if this theory is right or wrong". For me, if that's the case, then it's probably wrong.Silver Asiatic
May 7, 2015
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