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Biologos, Venema and the Scientific Imagination

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Denis Venema wants to explain evolution to evangelical Christians because he doesn’t think it is understand sufficiently. But he asks us to use our imagination and avoids a carefully modelled defence of evolution. If that is the best Darwinists can do then is it any wonder that many of us reject it? See:
Venema Understanding Evolution: An Introduction to Populations and Speciation

Firstly, Venema follows the common evolutionary practice of presenting evidence for evolution by focussing upon the micro changes and then extrapolating without evidence to the macro evolutionary scale by assuming it happens by similar means. But the micro changes, such as that of his exampled stickleback fish, are simply uncontested even by young earth creationists, but what is contested is the belief that we can move from the small to the big without developing and modelling a credible pathway. Time and again evolutionists fail to deal with the problems, but simply make the switch from small to big thinking the flaws in their reasoning will not be noticed.

Venema though asks us to use our imagination to understand evolution. I find that wholly inadequate scientifically, especially when we can model such claims mathematically. And I wonder why such imaginary thinking has a right to be called science. He does though present claims that can be questioned scientifically; for instance believing that humanity evolved within a population size of roughly 10,000 people. So how should we model these claims?

Assuming 20 years for a generation and 6 million years from an ape-like ancestor to mankind would give 300,000 generations to achieve an evolutionary progression from an ape-like ancestor to man. As an aside, in that time only 3 billion individuals would have lived and died, a smaller number than the present human population alive today. Does he really expect us to believe that man could have arisen in so small a number of ancestors? Presumably we can look at the incidence of beneficial mutations in the present human population and ask whether sufficient beneficial mutations would have arisen and be compounded through 300,000 generations. I am afraid it doesn’t look good for evolution.

So down to modelling; we are led to believe that there is 1 percent difference between ape and man in the 3 billion base pairs of DNA, and if we use unrealistic assumptions then we might assume only 10 percent of DNA is coded with the rest considered ‘junk.’ But even 1 percent of 300 million is 3 million nucleotide differences between ape and man.

So we have to find 3 million base-pair beneficial mutational changes in 300,000 generations, or 10 per generation, both found and fixed in the population per generation. Is that possible? I challenge anyone to tell me it is adequate from what we know about the way the present day human population finds and fixes beneficial mutations, even for instance on a small island community of 10,000 people. It comes up against a number of problems.

Problem1. Haldane’s dilemma as discussed by ReMines in The Biotic Message and Sandford in Genetic Entropy (Refs below) (One might have thought these books would be at the top of Venema’s reading list considering his position). Anyway, as a simple overview of the claims of these books, in order for beneficial mutations to be fixed in the population we would need to pay a cost in terms of survivability of the mutated offspring against the un-mutated ones. Haldane thought it as high as 30 to 1, and higher vertebrates cannot hope to pay that cost. Haldane thought a cost of 0.1 per generation might be affordable and that it would take 300 generations to fix 1 beneficial mutation in a population. Venema’s population might then fix 1000 beneficial mutations in 6 million years; a little short of the 3 million required. 

Problem 2. We may also ask whether beneficial mutations actually provide any selective advantage to an organism. Sandford for instance has pointed out that beneficial mutations, when they rarely occur, are virtually invisible at the level of the phenotype anyway and so even Haldane’s 0.1 per generation looks unlikely.           

Problem 3. Harmful mutations are far more common than beneficial ones, perhaps as high as 1000 to 1. In order to weed out the harmful mutations evolution would have to proceed at a very slow rate indeed so that error catastrophe doesn’t occur in the population; a problem known today where small inbreeding populations are often on the verge of extinction. Furthermore, small populations do not have sufficient resources to find the necessary beneficial mutations, even though it makes it easier to spread the mutations that do occur through a population. A large population is more likely to find beneficial mutations, but work against their spread through the population due to the size.   

 So in summary, I would challenge Venema to respond seriously to the questions raised by Sandford and ReMine.

Sources: Walter ReMine’s The Biotic Message, St Paul, Minnesota: St Paul’s Science, pp. 208-236. Sanford, J (2005) Genetic Entropy and the Mystery of the Genome, New York: Elim Publ, especially pp.159-160, Haldane JBS (1957) ‘The Cost of Natural Selection,’ J. Genetics 55:511-24.

Comments
No, it doesn't "argue against common descent" (or at least you aren't making the argument that it does).Elizabeth Liddle
September 17, 2011
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Well by golly Elizabeth, if bacteria have nothing to do with human evolution then I guess the entire Random Mutation and Natural Selection process itself has absolutely nothing to with Human Evolution either!
Not at all, ba77, but sexual reproduction provides a very different and much more efficient mechanism for propagating potentially useful alleles through a population, because DNA sequences can "travel" independently. However, rather than bother to find out whether I might have a point here, you cast aspersions on my motives. I suggest you find out a bit more about how alleles propagate through sexually reproducing populations before you generalise findings from bacterial studies to humans, or even to fruitflies,and certainly before you accuse the people who take issue with your conclusions of "blindness".Elizabeth Liddle
September 17, 2011
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Well Elizabeth, since I'm more interested in what the e-coli experiment actually says, than what Lenski personal opinion is, I think I will follow the evidence and not a dogmatic personal opinion of a scientists that refuses to acknowledge the clear implications of the evidence, even when that evidence is right before their very eyes. In fact, this experiment kills two birds with one stone, 1. It demonstrates the extreme difficultly, faced by neo-Darwinian processes, to locate random mutations that will actually work together to build functional complexity/information, i.e. to actually evolve something,,, and 2. it demonstrates the extreme blindness that Darwinists have to any results that contradict their deeply held beliefs in neo-darwinism, even when those findings are wrought by their very own hands.bornagain77
September 17, 2011
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It isn’t “equivalent to about a million years of supposed Human evolution” because bacteria are cloning species, not sexually reproducing species. This makes a huge difference.
Yes it does make a huge difference and that difference argues against universal common descent as sexual reproduction put an end to it.Joseph
September 17, 2011
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I’m unable to find Axe or Behe mentioning the evolution from ape to man being impossible.
Nice non-sequitur. You do realize that ID is not anti-evolution...Joseph
September 17, 2011
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Well by golly Elizabeth, if bacteria have nothing to do with human evolution then I guess the entire Random Mutation and Natural Selection process itself has absolutely nothing to with Human Evolution either!!!! Too bad I know your playbook Elizabeth,,,, i.e. neo-Darwinian tactic #5, when faced with clear evidence that severely contradicts neo-Darwinism, deny that the clear evidence has anything whatsoever to do with evolution.
Dr. Behe states in The Edge of Evolution on page 135: “Generating a single new cellular protein-protein binding site (in other words, generating a truly beneficial mutational event that would actually explain the generation of the complex molecular machinery we see in life) is of the same order of difficulty or worse than the development of chloroquine resistance in the malarial parasite.” That order of difficulty is put at 10^20 replications of the malarial parasite by Dr. Behe. This number comes from direct empirical observation. Richard Dawkins’ The Greatest Show on Earth Shies Away from Intelligent Design but Unwittingly Vindicates Michael Behe – Oct. 2009 Excerpt: The rarity of chloroquine resistance is not in question. In fact, Behe’s statistic that it occurs only once in every 10^20 cases was derived from public health statistical data, published by an authority in the Journal of Clinical Investigation. The extreme rareness of chloroquine resistance is not a negotiable data point; it is an observed fact. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2009/10/richard_dawkins_the_greatest_s026651.html “The likelihood of developing two binding sites in a protein complex would be the square of the probability of developing one: a double CCC (chloroquine complexity cluster), 10^20 times 10^20, which is 10^40. There have likely been fewer than 10^40 cells in the entire world in the past 4 billion years, so the odds are against a single event of this variety (just 2 binding sites being generated by accident) in the history of life. It is biologically unreasonable.” Michael J. Behe PhD. (from page 146 of his book “Edge of Evolution”) Nature Paper,, Finds Darwinian Processes Lacking – Michael Behe – Oct. 2009 Excerpt: Now, thanks to the work of Bridgham et al (2009), even such apparently minor switches in structure and function (of a protein to its supposed ancestral form) are shown to be quite problematic. It seems Darwinian processes can’t manage to do even as much as I had thought. (which was 1 in 10^40 for just 2 binding sites) http://www.evolutionnews.org/2009/10/nature_paper_finally_reaches_t026281.html When Theory and Experiment Collide — April 16th, 2011 by Douglas Axe Excerpt: Based on our experimental observations and on calculations we made using a published population model [3], we estimated that Darwin’s mechanism would need a truly staggering amount of time—a trillion trillion years or more—to accomplish the seemingly subtle change in enzyme function that we studied. http://biologicinstitute.org/2011/04/16/when-theory-and-experiment-collide/ Michael Behe, The Edge of Evolution, pg. 162 Swine Flu, Viruses, and the Edge of Evolution "Indeed, the work on malaria and AIDS demonstrates that after all possible unintelligent processes in the cell--both ones we've discovered so far and ones we haven't--at best extremely limited benefit, since no such process was able to do much of anything. It's critical to notice that no artificial limitations were placed on the kinds of mutations or processes the microorganisms could undergo in nature. Nothing--neither point mutation, deletion, insertion, gene duplication, transposition, genome duplication, self-organization nor any other process yet undiscovered--was of much use." http://www.evolutionnews.org/2009/05/swine_flu_viruses_and_the_edge.html “The First Rule of Adaptive Evolution”: Break or blunt any functional coded element whose loss would yield a net fitness gain – Michael Behe – December 2010 Excerpt: In its most recent issue The Quarterly Review of Biology has published a review by myself of laboratory evolution experiments of microbes going back four decades.,,, The gist of the paper is that so far the overwhelming number of adaptive (that is, helpful) mutations seen in laboratory evolution experiments are either loss or modification of function. Of course we had already known that the great majority of mutations that have a visible effect on an organism are deleterious. Now, surprisingly, it seems that even the great majority of helpful mutations degrade the genome to a greater or lesser extent.,,, I dub it “The First Rule of Adaptive Evolution”: Break or blunt any functional coded element whose loss would yield a net fitness gain.
Elizabeth, you have to be completely blind, or hopelessly dishonest, to not see HUGE problems for neo-Darwinism in this evidence. Further notes:
The Paradox of the "Ancient" (250 Million Year Old) Bacterium Which Contains "Modern" Protein-Coding Genes: “Almost without exception, bacteria isolated from ancient material have proven to closely resemble modern bacteria at both morphological and molecular levels.” Heather Maughan*, C. William Birky Jr., Wayne L. Nicholson, William D. Rosenzweig§ and Russell H. Vreeland ; http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/19/9/1637 Static evolution: is pond scum the same now as billions of years ago? Excerpt: But what intrigues (paleo-biologist) J. William Schopf most is lack of change. Schopf was struck 30 years ago by the apparent similarities between some 1-billion-year-old fossils of blue-green bacteria and their modern microbial microbial. "They surprisingly looked exactly like modern species," Schopf recalls. Now, after comparing data from throughout the world, Schopf and others have concluded that modern pond scum differs little from the ancient blue-greens. "This similarity in morphology is widespread among fossils of [varying] times," says Schopf. As evidence, he cites the 3,000 such fossils found; http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Static+evolution%3A+is+pond+scum+the+same+now+as+billions+of+years+ago%3F-a014909330
bornagain77
September 17, 2011
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DrREC:
I really now don’t know how much extra meaning you’ve loaded into ‘Darwinian’ but mutation, gene duplication and recombination are well-examined natural processes.
Design is a natural process too- a well-examined natural process. But anyway you don't have any evidence taht gene duplication and recombination are blind, undirected chemical processes- ie darwinian processes. As for ID and theistic evolution- well ID is nothing like TE.Joseph
September 17, 2011
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Well, no, ba77, and Lenski himself doesn't think so.Elizabeth Liddle
September 17, 2011
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"Just how was it determined that gene duplication and recombination are ‘Darwinian’ processes?" I really now don't know how much extra meaning you've loaded into 'Darwinian' but mutation, gene duplication and recombination are well-examined natural processes. Are you trying to say I can't prove they are natural, that perhaps a designer is using them in executing designs? Fine. I can't falsify that. Keep it as a personal belief. This leads me to the answer of your second question. I do NOT think ID is anti-evolution. I think it has degraded to theistic evolution.DrREC
September 17, 2011
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I’ve shown papers (Axe; Behe) that DEMONSTRATE the neo-Darwinian evolution of proteins and genes, that are completely different between chimps and man, is impossible.
I'm unable to find Axe or Behe mentioning the evolution from ape to man being impossible. Are you quoting them or making an inference?Petrushka
September 17, 2011
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Actually, there's a sense in which bacteria aren't "species" at all. They aren't by most definitions.Elizabeth Liddle
September 17, 2011
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Well, a quick comments from me: ba77 wrote:
Shoot Prof. FX Gumby, let’s just get all silly, clown-like, foolish and look at the 50,000 generations of e-coli in the Long Term Evolution Experiment of Lenski, which is equivalent to about a million years of supposed Human evolution
It isn't "equivalent to about a million years of supposed Human evolution" because bacteria are cloning species, not sexually reproducing species. This makes a huge difference. It's not the only problem with ba77's point, but it's an especially glaring one.Elizabeth Liddle
September 17, 2011
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Would the Darwinists among us care to comment on the points BA77 highlighted relating to Lenski's 50,000 generation e. coli experiments, which would equate to about 1 million years of human evolution. In particular the points raised in comment 12.1. Quite revealing in it's findings, but perhaps I'm missing something.Stu7
September 17, 2011
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DrREC, All you are doing is engaging in question-begging- Just how was it determined that gene duplication and recombination are 'Darwinian' processes? Do you realize that ID is not anti-evolution? Or do you really think your ignorance refutes ID?Joseph
September 17, 2011
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DrREC:
Recent de novo origin of human protein-coding genes http://genome.cshlp.org/content/early/2009/08/31/gr.095026.109
Nope, nothing about Darwinian processes there- just question-begging. Not one link supports the claim that Darwinian processes didit. Strange...Joseph
September 17, 2011
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There still isn't any genetic evidence that demonstrates the changes required (from chimp to human) are even possible. So you have to start there. Good luck...Joseph
September 17, 2011
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Further note:
Quantum entanglement is shown to be related to ‘functional information’ by the following evidence; Quantum Entanglement and Information Excerpt: A pair of quantum systems in an entangled state can be used as a quantum information channel to perform computational and cryptographic tasks that are impossible for classical systems. http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/qt-entangle/ Quantum Computing in DNA – Stuart Hameroff Excerpt: Hypothesis: DNA utilizes quantum information and quantum computation for various functions. Superpositions of dipole states of base pairs consisting of purine (A,G) and pyrimidine (C,T) ring structures play the role of qubits, and quantum communication (coherence, entanglement, non-locality) occur in the “pi stack” region of the DNA molecule.,,, We can then consider DNA as a chain of qubits (with helical twist). Output of quantum computation would be manifest as the net electron interference pattern in the quantum state of the pi stack, regulating gene expression and other functions locally and nonlocally by radiation or entanglement. http://www.quantumconsciousness.org/views/QuantumComputingInDNA.html Indeed the ‘quantum computation’ that is accomplished by the quantum entanglement within DNA is very impressive (and drastically surpasses, by many, many, orders of magnitude, anything man has accomplished in his efforts at quantum computation): Quantum Dots Spotlight DNA-Repair Proteins in Motion – March 2010 Excerpt: “How this system works is an important unanswered question in this field,” he said. “It has to be able to identify very small mistakes in a 3-dimensional morass of gene strands. It’s akin to spotting potholes on every street all over the country and getting them fixed before the next rush hour.” Dr. Bennett Van Houten – of note: A bacterium has about 40 team members on its pothole crew. That allows its entire genome to be scanned for errors in 20 minutes, the typical doubling time.,, These smart machines can apparently also interact with other damage control teams if they cannot fix the problem on the spot. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/03/100311123522.htm
bornagain77
September 17, 2011
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DrREC, here is some more that 'quantum business' for you to get a 'good laugh' with:
Information? What Is It Really? Professor Andy McIntosh - Video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4739025/
As Professor McIntosh points out in the preceding video, information is a very elusive entity to nail down, for though we can write it down, encode it, and transfer the information from one material medium to another completely different material medium, the information never changes its meaning though the material mediums, on which the information is stored, are completely different upon the information’s transfer.,,, It is also interesting to note that a Compact Disc crammed with information on it weighs exactly the same as a CD with no information on it whatsoever.,, i.e. Information, from our everyday experience, gives every indication of being completely transcendent of any material basis. i.e. Information gives every indication of being ‘real’ and yet it also gives every indication of being transcendent of time and space though it may be stored on various material mediums. Moreover, although our everyday experience gives us a very enigmatic picture of ‘information’, breakthroughs in quantum mechanics have given us a more complete picture of ‘information’ and its place (prominence) in the overall structure of reality; Anton Zeilinger, a leading researcher in Quantum mechanics, gives a brief outline, of how quantum entanglement/information is extended to allow quantum teleportation, in this following video;
Quantum Entanglement and Teleportation – Anton Zeilinger – video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5705317/
And quantum teleporation shows that atoms, which are suppose to be the basis from which functional information ‘emerges’ in the neo-Darwinian framework, are now shown to be, in fact, reducible to the functional information that the atoms are suppose to be the basis of!
Ions have been teleported successfully for the first time by two independent research groups Excerpt: In fact, copying isn’t quite the right word for it. In order to reproduce the quantum state of one atom in a second atom, the original has to be destroyed. This is unavoidable – it is enforced by the laws of quantum mechanics, which stipulate that you can’t ‘clone’ a quantum state. In principle, however, the ‘copy’ can be indistinguishable from the original (that was destroyed),,, http://www.rsc.org/chemistryworld/Issues/2004/October/beammeup.asp Atom takes a quantum leap – 2009 Excerpt: Ytterbium ions have been ‘teleported’ over a distance of a metre.,,, “What you’re moving is information, not the actual atoms,” says Chris Monroe, from the Joint Quantum Institute at the University of Maryland in College Park and an author of the paper. But as two particles of the same type differ only in their quantum states, the transfer of quantum information is equivalent to moving the first particle to the location of the second. http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2171769/posts
i.e. It is impossible for quantum information/entanglement to ever ‘emerge’ from any material basis of atoms when atoms are now shown to reduce to a transcendent basis of quantum information in the first place!!! But alas DrREC, I'm fairly certain that none of these insurmountable problems for the reductive materialistic framework of neo-Darwinism presented by quantum mechanics matters to you, and that you will have another 'good laugh' at all that 'quantum business'. But, if you do do as such, then to me it just demonstrates once again your intellectual dishonesty to the facts and your dogmatic belief in neo-Darwinism no matter what the evidence says to the contrary;bornagain77
September 17, 2011
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DrREC, You then go on to have a 'good laugh' at this 'quantum mechanics business'. But alas the last laugh is on you for quantum mechanics, due to recent breakthroughs in science, has falsified the 'reductive' materialistic theory of neo-Darwinism:
Falsification of neo-Darwinism by quantum mechanics; First, Here is the falsification of local realism (reductive materialism). Here is a clip of a talk in which Alain Aspect talks about the failure of ‘local realism’, or the failure of reductive materialism, to explain reality: The Failure Of Local Realism – Reductive Materialism – Alain Aspect – video http://www.metacafe.com/w/4744145 The falsification for local realism (reductive materialism) was recently greatly strengthened: Physicists close two loopholes while violating local realism – November 2010 Excerpt: The latest test in quantum mechanics provides even stronger support than before for the view that nature violates local realism and is thus in contradiction with a classical worldview. http://www.physorg.com/news/2010-11-physicists-loopholes-violating-local-realism.html Quantum Measurements: Common Sense Is Not Enough, Physicists Show – July 2009 Excerpt: scientists have now proven comprehensively in an experiment for the first time that the experimentally observed phenomena cannot be described by non-contextual models with hidden variables. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/07/090722142824.htm (of note: hidden variables were postulated to remove the need for ‘spooky’ forces, as Einstein termed them — forces that act instantaneously at great distances, thereby breaking the most cherished rule of relativity theory, that nothing can travel faster than the speed of light.) And yet, quantum entanglement, which rigorously falsified local realism (reductive materialism) as the complete description of reality, is now found in molecular biology on a massive scale! Quantum Information/Entanglement In DNA & Protein Folding – short video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5936605/ i.e. It is very interesting to note that quantum entanglement, which conclusively demonstrates that ‘information’ in its pure ‘quantum form’ is completely transcendent of any time and space constraints, should be found in molecular biology on such a massive scale, for how can the quantum entanglement ‘effect’ in biology possibly be explained by a material (matter/energy space/time) ’cause’ when the quantum entanglement ‘effect’ falsified material particles as its own ‘causation’ in the first place? (A. Aspect) Appealing to the probability of various configurations of material particles, as neo-Darwinism does, simply will not help since a timeless/spaceless cause must be supplied which is beyond the capacity of the energy/matter particles themselves to supply! To give a coherent explanation for an effect that is shown to be completely independent of any time and space constraints one is forced to appeal to a cause that is itself not limited to time and space! i.e. Put more simply, you cannot explain a effect by a cause that has been falsified by the very same effect you are seeking to explain! Improbability arguments of various ‘specified’ configurations of material particles, which have been a staple of the arguments against neo-Darwinism, simply do not apply since the cause is not within the material particles in the first place! ,,,To refute this falsification of neo-Darwinism, one must falsify Alain Aspect, and company’s, falsification of local realism (reductive materialism)! To dovetail into Dembski and Marks's work on Conservation of Information;,,, LIFE'S CONSERVATION LAW: Why Darwinian Evolution Cannot Create Biological Information William A. Dembski and Robert J. Marks II http://evoinfo.org/publications/lifes-conservation-law/ ,,,Encoded classical information, such as what we find in computer programs, and yes as we find encoded in DNA, is found to be a subset of 'transcendent' quantum information by the following method:,,, This following research provides solid falsification for Rolf Landauer’s contention that information encoded in a computer is merely physical (merely ‘emergent’ from a material basis) since he believed it always required energy to erase it; Quantum knowledge cools computers: New understanding of entropy – June 2011 Excerpt: No heat, even a cooling effect; In the case of perfect classical knowledge of a computer memory (zero entropy), deletion of the data requires in theory no energy at all. The researchers prove that “more than complete knowledge” from quantum entanglement with the memory (negative entropy) leads to deletion of the data being accompanied by removal of heat from the computer and its release as usable energy. This is the physical meaning of negative entropy. Renner emphasizes, however, “This doesn’t mean that we can develop a perpetual motion machine.” The data can only be deleted once, so there is no possibility to continue to generate energy. The process also destroys the entanglement, and it would take an input of energy to reset the system to its starting state. The equations are consistent with what’s known as the second law of thermodynamics: the idea that the entropy of the universe can never decrease. Vedral says “We’re working on the edge of the second law. If you go any further, you will break it.” http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/06/110601134300.htm ,,,And here is the empirical confirmation that quantum information is 'conserved';,,, Quantum no-hiding theorem experimentally confirmed for first time Excerpt: In the classical world, information can be copied and deleted at will. In the quantum world, however, the conservation of quantum information means that information cannot be created nor destroyed. This concept stems from two fundamental theorems of quantum mechanics: the no-cloning theorem and the no-deleting theorem. A third and related theorem, called the no-hiding theorem, addresses information loss in the quantum world. According to the no-hiding theorem, if information is missing from one system (which may happen when the system interacts with the environment), then the information is simply residing somewhere else in the Universe; in other words, the missing information cannot be hidden in the correlations between a system and its environment. http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-03-quantum-no-hiding-theorem-experimentally.html
DrREC, I actually had a neo-Darwinists tell me the other day that none of the preceding evidence matters to neo-Darwinism for neo-Darwinism does not care about material particles or quantum entanglement/information, but only cares about how species change over time. To which, it may surprise you to find, that I whole-heartily agreed with him. For I told him that, as far as I could see, neo-Darwinism has nothing, whatsoever, to do with how reality is constructed at all!!
Alain Aspect and Anton Zeilinger by Richard Conn Henry – Physics Professor – John Hopkins University Excerpt: Why do people cling with such ferocity to belief in a mind-independent reality? It is surely because if there is no such reality, then ultimately (as far as we can know) mind alone exists. And if mind is not a product of real matter, but rather is the creator of the “illusion” of material reality (which has, in fact, despite the materialists, been known to be the case, since the discovery of quantum mechanics in 1925), then a theistic view of our existence becomes the only rational alternative to solipsism (solipsism is the philosophical idea that only one’s own mind is sure to exist). (Dr. Henry’s referenced experiment and paper – “An experimental test of non-local realism” by S. Gröblacher et. al., Nature 446, 871, April 2007 – “To be or not to be local” by Alain Aspect, Nature 446, 866, April 2007
bornagain77
September 17, 2011
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DrREC you state:
'Since functional information DOES increase in directed evolution, natural evolution, and genetic algorithms (even Behe lists “adaptive gain of functional coded elements)” in his latest review, what are we left with?'
First, let's look at your example for 'directed' evolution. From their abstract in the paper we find this quote
Strategy and success for the directed evolution of enzymes. Excerpt: The underlying principles that lead to early dead-ends for directed evolution experiments are also discussed along with recent strategies designed to by-pass them. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21684150
DrREC, perhaps you find designing strategies to overcome the dead-ends of neo-Darwinian processes to be a purely neo-Darwinian process, but DrREC the last time I checked designing strategies was held to be a intelligent activity. i.e. you are severely begging the question by claiming this paper as proof for what neo-Darwinism can do.,,, DrREC, you then claim 'natural' (purely Darwinian) evolution can produce functional information; Well since this is the very point being debated now we are getting somewhere. But alas you have provided no paper showing Darwinian evolution producing any non-trivial functional information (genes and/or proteins) where as I've cited Lenski, Behe, and Axe that shows that there are severe limits for what neo-Darwinian processes can do. Thus apparently you think your word that it can happen by purely neo-Darwinian processes is good enough to establish your claim beyond reasonable doubt, but alas I do not trust you. In fact I think neo-Darwinists, by and large, are a very dishonest people! Thus please present the exact empirical evidence instead of just your say so that it is so. You then claim that genetic algorithms, which are designed by humans, can create functional information. But when these man-made genetic algorithms are looked at closely we find:
LIFE'S CONSERVATION LAW: Why Darwinian Evolution Cannot Create Biological Information William A. Dembski and Robert J. Marks II Excerpt: Searches that operate by Darwinian selection, for instance, often significantly outperform blind search. But when they do, it is because they exploit information supplied by a fitness function — information that is unavailable to blind search. Searches that have a greater probability of success than blind search do not just magically materialize. They form by some process. According to LCI, any such search-forming process must build into the search at least as much information as the search displays in raising the probability of success. Though not denying Darwinian evolution or even limiting its role in the history of life, the Law of Conservation of Information shows that Darwinian evolution is inherently teleological. Moreover, it shows that this teleology can be measured in precise information-theoretic terms. http://evoinfo.org/publications/lifes-conservation-law/
Thus DrREC, do you concede the main point of Dembski’s paper, that IF neo-Darwinism could generate functional information in life, (which no empirical demonstration has been forthcoming by neo-Darwinists that it can do as such, which is the main point being debated by the way), that that gain in functional information would have to be the result of Intelligent Design built into nature??? Then DrREC, you have the sheer audacity to actually cite Behe's latest paper as proof for neo-Darwinian evolution. I think Eric Anderson addressed this quite well on Gil's post:
DrRec: “Even Behe lists multiple “adaptive gain of functional coded elements” in his latest review*.” This is not the first time you have put forward this red herring, so I believe it is high time to weigh in and put a stop to your misreading of the situation. Behe has, for some time, and as further illustrated in the paper you cited, been looking for what he calls the “edge of evolution” or the boundary where traditional evolutionary mechanisms can actually do something. Behe goes through many examples of mutations and tries to categorize them to see what lesson can be learned. While there are a small handful of what could be viewed as “gain of function” mutations, the takeaway from Behe’s careful review is most decidedly *not* that natural processes can readily come up with new informational structures. Further, even in those cases where there is arguably a gain of function, Behe shows that such “gain” almost inevitably results from the breakage of an existing part or system. Indeed, a large part of the point of Behe’s paper is to propose what he calls the “First Rule of Adaptive Evolution,” namely that in particular circumstances a fitness advantage can sometimes be gained by breaking or blunting a functional coded element. The strong takeaway from all this is that (i) naturalistic processes are terrible at producing information gain (indeed, we’re still waiting for a decent example of information gain beyond the absolutely trivial), and (ii) even in those cases where a survival advantage has been conferred by a mutation, it is typically the result of breaking or blunting an existing functional element, not from creating some new informational element.
You then go on to state I'm being unreasonable in my view of the evidence for discounting your 'strategies for success' paper, which clearly, as illustrated earlier, is 'designed' to overcome neo-Darwinian dead-ends. But alas DrREC, why do you want this paper to count for neo-Darwinism so badly when, clearly, to reasonable people, it does not count as a purely neo-Darwinian process? It is because, as empirically DEMONSTRATED with Lenski's e-coli and Behe's malaria and HIV, you have no evidence, whatsoever, that purely neo-Darwinian processes can do anything beyond the utterly trivial as far as generating functional information above and beyond what is already present in life!!! You then gripe about my discounting of the sequence similarity evidence you cited as 'proof' of neo-Darwinism, which once again clearly shows that you have no grasp, whatsoever, of the most fundamental precepts of empirical science, for clearly you have not DEMONSTRATED that proteins can change from one remote island of functionality to another remote island of functionality by neo-Darwinian means, but have merely asserted the very point being questioned does not have to be demonstrated. i.e. neo-Darwinists need to show the step by step amino acid substitution process by which proteins make these universe wide leaps to different islands of functionality (Axe; 2004) without ending in failure for the functionality of the protein!!!bornagain77
September 17, 2011
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Prof. FX Gumby, I wouldn't be too harsh. I think bornagain77 summarizes the ID position well-no one here seems to ever correct him. His posts are revealing. Since functional information DOES increase in directed evolution, natural evolution, and genetic algorithms (even Behe lists "adaptive gain of functional coded elements)" in his latest review, what are we left with? BA77 provides the answer--in the face of observations that show the pathways (mutation and recombination) by which the novel activities can about, he sees design. This is trick one: "purely neo-Darwinian processes" Purely? How do I prove that? How do I rule out the influence of a designer in human evolution, or my test tube. I can't. Maybe the designer came in and did something. I can describe the process, the natural process that fully accounts for it. But he sees design, and declares it. No detection, no scientific need to invoke it, but there it is. This makes ID a non-falsifiable equivalent of theistic evolution. See the natural process, study the process, but it must have been guided. What's the difference? Trick two is using the evidence only when it is helpful to ID: "they infer relationship from sequences and definitely do not DEMONSTRATE the novel proteins arising" So sequence based-inferences ala the original post, Behe, etc., are fine, but when the evolution of a new gene by comparing humans and chimps is inferred, we must strike it from the record. Very convenient. Trick three is resorting to hocus-pocus interpretations of science. The quantum mechanics business is a good laugh. Hey BA77, you never answered my question: does 'realism' have the same meaning in quantum mechanics and metaphysics? Until you figure out that one, you're pretty much embarrassing yourself here.DrREC
September 16, 2011
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Prof. FX Gumby, perhaps you can entertain 'this fool' with a actual DEMONSTRATION of neo-Darwinian evolution generating genes/proteins, instead of just sequence similarity comparison that presupposes the very thing being asked into its conclusion???. Shoot Prof. FX Gumby, let's just get all silly, clown-like, foolish and look at the 50,000 generations of e-coli in the Long Term Evolution Experiment of Lenski, which is equivalent to about a million years of supposed Human evolution, since it is the best direct evidence we got for the power of Darwinism, and see what the almighty power of neo-Darwinian evolution has DEMONSTRATED for this fool to behold: And the drum-roll please,,,,,,,
Mutations : when benefits level off - June 2011 - (Lenski's e-coli after 50,000 generations) Excerpt: After having identified the first five beneficial mutations combined successively and spontaneously in the bacterial population, the scientists generated, from the ancestral bacterial strain, 32 mutant strains exhibiting all of the possible combinations of each of these five mutations. They then noted that the benefit linked to the simultaneous presence of five mutations was less than the sum of the individual benefits conferred by each mutation individually. http://www2.cnrs.fr/en/1867.htm?theme1=7
But that can't be right Prof. FX Gumby,,, the mutations interfered with each other, preventing further 'evolution', so let's take a closer look,,
Michael Behe's Quarterly Review of Biology Paper Critiques Richard Lenski's E. Coli Evolution Experiments - December 2010 Excerpt: After reviewing the results of Lenski's research, Behe concludes that the observed adaptive mutations all entail either loss or modification--but not gain--of Functional Coding ElemenTs (FCTs) http://www.evolutionnews.org/2010/12/michael_behes_quarterly_review041221.html
Prof. FX Gumby, this is not good for you guys. Perhaps if you insult us fools who question the almighty power of Darwinism a little more, then you can make these consistent types of experimental results magically go away. But then again something tells me this is NEVER going away!
Dembski and Marks's work on Conservation of Information;,,, LIFE'S CONSERVATION LAW: Why Darwinian Evolution Cannot Create Biological Information William A. Dembski and Robert J. Marks II http://evoinfo.org/publications/lifes-conservation-law/ ,,,Encoded classical information, such as what we find in computer programs, and yes as we find encoded in DNA, is found to be a subset of 'transcendent' quantum information by the following method:,,, This following research provides solid falsification for Rolf Landauer’s contention that information encoded in a computer is merely physical (merely ‘emergent’ from a material basis) since he believed it always required energy to erase it; Quantum knowledge cools computers: New understanding of entropy – June 2011 Excerpt: No heat, even a cooling effect; In the case of perfect classical knowledge of a computer memory (zero entropy), deletion of the data requires in theory no energy at all. The researchers prove that “more than complete knowledge” from quantum entanglement with the memory (negative entropy) leads to deletion of the data being accompanied by removal of heat from the computer and its release as usable energy. This is the physical meaning of negative entropy. Renner emphasizes, however, “This doesn’t mean that we can develop a perpetual motion machine.” The data can only be deleted once, so there is no possibility to continue to generate energy. The process also destroys the entanglement, and it would take an input of energy to reset the system to its starting state. The equations are consistent with what’s known as the second law of thermodynamics: the idea that the entropy of the universe can never decrease. Vedral says “We’re working on the edge of the second law. If you go any further, you will break it.” http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/06/110601134300.htm ,,,And here is the empirical confirmation that quantum information is 'conserved';,,, Quantum no-hiding theorem experimentally confirmed for first time Excerpt: In the classical world, information can be copied and deleted at will. In the quantum world, however, the conservation of quantum information means that information cannot be created nor destroyed. This concept stems from two fundamental theorems of quantum mechanics: the no-cloning theorem and the no-deleting theorem. A third and related theorem, called the no-hiding theorem, addresses information loss in the quantum world. According to the no-hiding theorem, if information is missing from one system (which may happen when the system interacts with the environment), then the information is simply residing somewhere else in the Universe; in other words, the missing information cannot be hidden in the correlations between a system and its environment. http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-03-quantum-no-hiding-theorem-experimentally.html
bornagain77
September 16, 2011
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"He does though present claims that can be questioned scientifically; for instance believing that humanity evolved within a population size of roughly 10,000 people. So how should we model these claims? Assuming 20 years for a generation and 6 million years from an ape-like ancestor to mankind would give 300,000 generations to achieve an evolutionary progression from an ape-like ancestor to man. As an aside, in that time only 3 billion individuals would have lived and died, a smaller number than the present human population alive today. Does he really expect us to believe that man could have arisen in so small a number of ancestors? " --There were about 1 billion people in 1800. All of those people were dead by 1920, when the world population was 2 billion - and now just about all of those people have died. There's your previous 3 billion people - just right there. So obviously more than 3 billion people have lived and died in the previous 6 million years. Denis Venema wasn't saying that humans only numbered about 10k throughout our history. He said that humans never numbered LESS than 10k, and he said it in context of explaining that it's POPULATIONS that evolve, not individuals. And thus his point is that the "first" humans were a population of at least 10k - and so evolution doesn't claim that there was ever a "first human" or "first pair" of humans. And this was just the initial population size. The estimates I usually hear is that pre-agricultural revolution that humans were a roughly stable population of about 1 million, and that over 100 billion humans have lived and died. Those are roughly the numbers mentioned here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_population#Number_of_humans_who_have_ever_livedgoodusername
September 16, 2011
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DrREC, you might as well give up the argument. This fool will be satisfied with nothing less than one of his precious youtube videos of a beneficial protein-coding mutation arising in real time, complete with sound effects and laser light shows. On the other hand, he is perfectly willing to accept the slightest hand wave in the direction of divine intervention design. I think the operative phrase is "selective hyperskepticism"?Prof. FX Gumby
September 16, 2011
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DrREC you ask:
Have you observed design, or is it an inference?
DrREC, any time you, or anyone else posts a comment, I confidently observe design in action. The reason I can be confident that design is involved is that when you generate the functional information in your comment you post, you have in fact exceeded what is possible for the entire material processes of the universe over the entire history of the universe. Since I know of ZERO instances of neo-Darwinian evolution DEMONSTRATING the generation of that level of functional information, then the inference holds. Whereas you on the other hand are inferring something that has NEVER been demonstrated for neo-Darwinian evolution, must less purely material processes,, namely the generation of a 'non-trivial' level of functional information:
Stephen C. Meyer - The Scientific Basis For the Intelligent Design Inference - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4104651 Book Review - Meyer, Stephen C. Signature in the Cell. New York: HarperCollins, 2009. Excerpt: As early as the 1960s, those who approached the problem of the origin of life from the standpoint of information theory and combinatorics observed that something was terribly amiss. Even if you grant the most generous assumptions: that every elementary particle in the observable universe is a chemical laboratory randomly splicing amino acids into proteins every Planck time for the entire history of the universe, there is a vanishingly small probability that even a single functionally folded protein of 150 amino acids would have been created. Now of course, elementary particles aren't chemical laboratories, nor does peptide synthesis take place where most of the baryonic mass of the universe resides: in stars or interstellar and intergalactic clouds. If you look at the chemistry, it gets even worse—almost indescribably so: the precursor molecules of many of these macromolecular structures cannot form under the same prebiotic conditions—they must be catalysed by enzymes created only by preexisting living cells, and the reactions required to assemble them into the molecules of biology will only go when mediated by other enzymes, assembled in the cell by precisely specified information in the genome. So, it comes down to this: Where did that information come from? The simplest known free living organism (although you may quibble about this, given that it's a parasite) has a genome of 582,970 base pairs, or about one megabit (assuming two bits of information for each nucleotide, of which there are four possibilities). Now, if you go back to the universe of elementary particle Planck time chemical labs and work the numbers, you find that in the finite time our universe has existed, you could have produced about 500 bits of structured, functional information by random search. Yet here we have a minimal information string which is (if you understand combinatorics) so indescribably improbable to have originated by chance that adjectives fail. http://www.fourmilab.ch/documents/reading_list/indices/book_726.html The Capabilities of Chaos and Complexity - David L. Abel - 2009 Excerpt: "A monstrous ravine runs through presumed objective reality. It is the great divide between physicality and formalism. On the one side of this Grand Canyon lies everything that can be explained by the chance and necessity of physicodynamics. On the other side lies those phenomena than can only be explained by formal choice contingency and decision theory—the ability to choose with intent what aspects of ontological being will be preferred, pursued, selected, rearranged, integrated, organized, preserved, and used. Physical dynamics includes spontaneous non linear phenomena, but not our formal applied-science called “non linear dynamics”(i.e. language,information). http://www.mdpi.com/1422-0067/10/1/247/pdf Premise One: No materialistic cause of specified complex information is known. Conclusion: Therefore, it must arise from some unknown materialistic cause On the other hand, Stephen Meyer describes the intelligent design argument as follows: “Premise One: Despite a thorough search, no material causes have been discovered that demonstrate the power to produce large amounts of specified information. “Premise Two: Intelligent causes have demonstrated the power to produce large amounts of specified information. “Conclusion: Intelligent design constitutes the best, most causally adequate, explanation for the information in the cell.” There remains one and only one type of cause that has shown itself able to create functional information like we find in cells, books and software programs -- intelligent design. We know this from our uniform experience and from the design filter -- a mathematically rigorous method of detecting design. Both yield the same answer. (William Dembski and Jonathan Witt, Intelligent Design Uncensored: An Easy-to-Understand Guide to the Controversy, p. 90 (InterVarsity Press, 2010).)
Of course DrREC, you could deny that you are intelligent and that you really didn't 'design' your comments, but as far as the science is concerned my inference stands firm whereas you have no basis for your sequence similarity inference.
bornagain77
September 16, 2011
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DrREC, I've shown papers (Axe; Behe) that DEMONSTRATE the neo-Darwinian evolution of proteins and genes, that are completely different between chimps and man, is impossible. Whereas you have merely shown a preconceived conclusion imposed on sequence similarity data. As far as science is concerned experiment beats conjecture all the time, thus the burden is on you.bornagain77
September 16, 2011
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DrREC, you do not seem to grasp the most fundamental point of empirical science. For you to support your delusional claims for neo-Darwinism, you must actually demonstrate the origination of genes and proteins by purely neo-Darwinian processes. You cannot assume the conclusion you want to make in your argument, by merely alluding to sequence similarity. It is the very point being debated and is not satisfied by anything less than a actual demonstration.bornagain77
September 16, 2011
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DrREC, 'The query wasn’t limited to natural processes.' Hmm the exact point being debated wasn't used. How special!bornagain77
September 16, 2011
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"DrREC, you are the one who said DEMONSTRATE," "Excuse me, they infer relationship from sequences and definitely do not DEMONSTRATE the novel proteins arising!!!" Whatever. Calm down. As for the evidence in that paper-why reject the inference. Non-coding sequences in present in other species have a mutation or recombination yielding a functional protein in one. They have been tested for function. Conclusion-evolution of a novel, functional protein. You reject this as a inference. Have you observed design, or is it an inference?DrREC
September 16, 2011
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But we could do this forever. BA77, regarding the original thread: Want to show calculations that the number of observed mutations between humans and chimps is impossible? Want to defend the claim in the original post that there must be a whopping number of beneficial mutations?DrREC
September 16, 2011
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