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BTB, Q: Why all of this fuss about specific functionality and FSCO/I, when we already have CSI?

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A: Of course, this was long since answered in Dembski’s No Free Lunch, but many (especially those who draw their understanding of ID from what ruthlessly manipulative objectors have to say) will not be familiar with what he has long since said on record.

So, let’s clip and highlight, as foundational:

>>p. 148:“The great myth of contemporary evolutionary biology is that the information needed to explain complex biological structures can be purchased without intelligence. My aim throughout this book is to dispel that myth . . . . Eigen and his colleagues must have something else in mind besides information simpliciter when they describe the origin of information as the central problem of biology.

I submit that what they have in mind is specified complexity [cf. here ], or what equivalently we have been calling in this Chapter Complex Specified information or CSI . . . .

Biological specification always refers to function. An organism is a functional system comprising many functional subsystems. . . . In virtue of their function [a living organism’s subsystems] embody patterns that are objectively given and can be identified independently of the systems that embody them. Hence these systems are specified in the sense required by the complexity-specificity criterion . . . the specification can be cashed out in any number of ways [through observing the requisites of functional organisation within the cell, or in organs and tissues or at the level of the organism as a whole.

{Dembski cites:

Wouters, p. 148: “globally in terms of the viability of whole organisms,”

Behe, p. 148: “minimal function of biochemical systems,”

Dawkins, pp. 148 – 9: “Complicated things have some quality, specifiable in advance, that is highly unlikely to have been acquired by ran-| dom chance alone. In the case of living things, the quality that is specified in advance is . . . the ability to propagate genes in reproduction.”

On p. 149, he roughly cites Orgel’s famous remark from 1973, which — exactly cited — reads:

 In brief, living organisms are distinguished by their specified complexity. Crystals are usually taken as the prototypes of simple well-specified structures, because they consist of a very large number of identical molecules packed together in a uniform way. Lumps of granite or random mixtures of polymers are examples of structures that are complex but not specified. The crystals fail to qualify as living because they lack complexity; the mixtures of polymers fail to qualify because they lack specificity . . .

And, p. 149, he  highlights Paul Davis in The Fifth Miracle:

“Living organisms are mysterious not for their complexity per se, but for their tightly specified complexity.”}

p. 144: [Specified complexity can be more formally defined:] “. . . since a universal probability bound of 1 [chance] in 10^150 corresponds to a universal complexity bound of 500 bits of information, [the cluster] (T, E) constitutes CSI because T [ effectively the target hot zone in the field of possibilities] subsumes E [effectively the observed event from that field], T is detachable from E, and and T measures at least 500 bits of information . . . ”>>

That is, complex, information-rich functional organisation in biological entities from the cell to the organism as a whole is recognised as an important context for CSI.

This is actually obvious, but the obvious sometimes needs to be hammered home hard to break through the effect of Plato’s cave shadow shows that have indoctrinated too many people in “[t]he great myth of contemporary evolutionary biology . . . that the information needed to explain complex biological structures can be purchased without intelligence.”

And obviously, much the same phenomenon of functionally specific, complex organisation and/or associated information (FSCO/I) is actually a commonplace in our world, from:

c-o-d-e-d-_-t-e-x-t-_- s-t-r-i-n-g-s of significant length (500 – 1,000 or more bits’ worth)

— which requires a communication framework of mutually adapted elements, with codes, protocols etc, here at first level:

A communication system
A communication system

— going full layercake:

comms_layercake— and, as Yockey exemplifies from the living cell (with my annotations):

Shannon_comm_sys_48

— with, a Java Hello World dissected to illustrate how such a context affects what is going on:

java_hello_world_means

— to gear trains in a fishing reel:

shimano_X-SHIP_gears

— to the mesh of nodes and arcs in the gears specified precisely to make them work:

spiral_gear_tooth— to the ABU 6500 C3 fishing reel as a nodes-arcs mesh:

abu_6500c3mag— to computers and living cells:

fscoi_facts— to the von Neumann Kinematic Self Replicator System Architecture implemented in the living cell (and which we hope to implement technologically):

vNSR. . . and many, many more cases in point, “too numerous to mention.” (Those who know radio obits in the Caribbean will get the joke. Oddly, one is going on as I type . . . is still going on as I finish.)

In short, FSCO/I is a commonplace phenomenon, literally seen by the trillion.

Its significance, of course, is that it is reliably, uniformly observed to come about by intelligently directed configuration. That is, it is a reliable sign of design as credible cause.

Which is the pivotal “basics” point that seems ever so hard for many to accept or just to acknowledge or appreciate as a serious point of view. END

Comments
If I see an animal I can guess quite accurately its environment.
This has nothing to do with the issue.
If the animal has large ears we predict a hot climate, small ears and a thick coat, a cold climate.
Neither does this.
Specaficity is molded by selection, not information.
facepalmUpright BiPed
November 3, 2016
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If I see an animal I can guess quite accurately its environment. If the animal has large ears we predict a hot climate, small ears and a thick coat, a cold climate. Specaficity is molded by selection, not information. Information is rigid, and prone to be wrong, ever heard of poor information? This of course fits evolution perfectly, as the DNA code resembles anything other than competant design. In Sth Africa Darwin found a flower with an unbelievably long style leading to the nectary. Without ever finding it he predicted a night pollinator, probably a moth. He was right, as he so often is. As the flower's nectar had to be protected, those flowers with longer styles were pollinated only by the insect that could reach the reward, and reward the plant by successful sex. Functionality, is a product of the necessity to survive, of your environment, and the usefulness of your inherited DNA. If you will, apparent functionality, and apparent design, are the product of pure blind luck, and selection; with a smattering of drift, and other yet to be explained natural mechanisms. Now, anyone reading this will understand the argument I have made, it's standard and clear, you in the ID movement need to seriously tidy up your indecipherable prose. As Ex-PFC Wintergreen said to General Dreedle in 'Catch-22', "his writing was too prolix".rvb8
November 3, 2016
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BW, do you create an operating system incrementally, stepwise (small steps), functional all the way from a hello world type program? How do you get to a machine capable of executing even a hello world? KFkairosfocus
November 3, 2016
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I, perhaps like roding, think I get the general idea behind specified complexity but struggle to grasp the intricacies of it or relate it to my normal way of looking at things. It is definitely something I will continue to read about when you post on it and hope someday it's significance hits home. Maybe I am over complicating it in my head (unlikely)? I guess the main contention to the idea would be that if you start from simpler structures with much lower functional information, you can then tweak your way up from there at a lower cost. i.e. as if variables/settings get changed rather than functions. Not even sure you could apply that thinking to biology but am just stabbing here.bw
November 3, 2016
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Roding, notice how you have again failed to address the substantial matter on its direct merits of fact, logic and underlying assumptions; and then seem to have side-stepped specific references to the peer reviewed literature, which you set up as your focal issue? That (not exactly unusual . . . ) evasiveness in objections tells us a lot. The real point you have spent days diverting from is, FSCO/I is a commonplace, readily understood phenomenon, which is relevant to linguistic communication and functional organisation dependent on complex and precise configuration. Texts of comments are examples -- something you managed to repeatedly exemplify even as you so studiously refused to engage the import of such a phenomenon on the merits. A great many familiar entities (e.g. fishing reels and gears) likewise exhibit FSCO/I, implicit in their functional organisation. Which also is as a rule quite sensitive to excessive variation -- the islands of function phenomenon. FSCO/I also appears in biological systems, with D/RNA, ribosomes and proteins as capital examples. The former, just like ASCII code text strings, is manifested through information-bearing string structures. Just, built with molecular technology. The ribosomes and proteins show the same, with function manifest in their operation as key working structures and machines of the living cell. And of course, one of the key leaders of design theory in one of his main books, underscored the obvious: in biology, specification is closely tied to function. This has also appeared in various other works, some of which he cited. SA cited Durston et al 2007, and in fact going to Trevors and Abel et al, there is a long series of closely related papers that address functional sequence complexity and metric models in a context of protein function and observations of protein families. With a dusting of discussion on information theory. All of this is accessible through the bibliography I highlighted by headlining it. However, what has been going on is an all too familiar, dreary evasive rhetorical game. Here is my answer to it: if you are unwilling to look at something this obvious and wish to obfuscate it behind talking points over peer reviewed articles -- meanwhile studiously ignoring links to same and citations -- then it means the issue is not the actual merits or willingness to look at cases discussed in the literature. What is it, then? It is this, that the power and manifest presence of functionally organised complex entities all around us and in the world of life points all too clearly to where ever so many are utterly unwilling to go. Namely, to strong evidence of design in the world of life, per empirically reliable sign. At this point, I can only call for fresh thinking. KFkairosfocus
November 3, 2016
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"You obviously failed to read the main clip in the OP with understanding." Oh well, I guess I'm just not smart enough. Time to go and make better use of my time than read UD.roding
November 3, 2016
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SA, that is indeed one of the papers I allude to. Roding: You obviously failed to read the main clip in the OP with understanding. I suggest you look again and ask yourself what it means for biological specification to refer to function. KFkairosfocus
November 3, 2016
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roding - you might want to look at this, peer reviewed (functional specified complexity): Kirk K. Durston, David K. Y. Chiu, David L. Abel, Jack T. Trevors, “Measuring the functional sequence complexity of proteins,” Theoretical Biology and Medical Modelling, Vol. 4:47 (2007).Silver Asiatic
November 3, 2016
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KF, Has anybody else every reviewed your work on FSCO/I? Like Dembski perhaps? There are a lot of numbers and calculations that you quote, but since I am just a layperson I really am not equipped to know if your assumptions are correct. And no offense, but really I find your arcane writing style almost impossible to follow at times. I know you think otherwise, but that's why peer review really does have value. Sorry but we already have a person in the public spotlight spouting "believe me" over and over, and for me at least that is not going to do the trick. This is obviously your pet project and dear to your heart, but I think if it is going to have legs it really needs external scrutiny (I know Jeffrey Shallit and took a look at this and CSI a while back...well I'm sure you know what the results were there...). You seem to think FSCO/I (in your mind at least but then you are the only person really promoting the idea) is a done deal, but until others with proper scientific bona fides support it, there is good reason to be skeptical.roding
November 3, 2016
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What is this thing KF calls FSCO/I?kairosfocus
November 3, 2016
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