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But what IS a gene?

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At one time, everyone knew what a gene was. It was one of those little beads on our chromosomes that determined whether we would be tall or short, fat or thin, smart or stupid. Or else didn’t, if we favoured the “environment” hypothesis.

The trouble is, in the age of genome mapping, ENCODE, epigenetics, it’s all more fuzzy and more like real life at the same time.

One friend suggested that “a gene is a functional unit of heritable information.” Perhaps it need not be a nucleotide. But for the term “gene” to be meaningful, the information must be in principle heritable, whatever the physical medium is.

Meanwhile, there is

Gerstein et al., “What is a gene, post-ENCODE? History and updated definition,” Genome Research, 17:669-681 (2007):

A proposed updated definition

There are three aspects to the definition that we will list below, before providing the succinct definition:

1.A gene is a genomic sequence (DNA or RNA) directly encoding functional product molecules, either RNA or protein.

2.In the case that there are several functional products sharing overlapping regions, one takes the union of all overlapping genomic sequences coding for them.

3.This union must be coherent-i.e., done separately for final protein and RNA products-but does not require that all products necessarily share a common subsequence.

This can be concisely summarized as:

The gene is a union of genomic sequences encoding a coherent set of potentially overlapping functional products.

Readers? What you think?

See also:  It’s a sociable gene, not a selfish gene (Despite that, it has unFriended Richard Dawkins.)

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Comments
Larry Moran, if you've addressed my questions elsewhere, please post a link. 1. What is the gene for the gene concept? 2. How do you determine whether “the concept of a gene” is itself the product of “a DNA sequence that is transcribed to produce a functional product”? It's ok if you don't know. Just say so.Mung
March 6, 2015
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11 phoodoo March 2, 2015 at 9:05 pm Its ok if the definition of a gene is fuzzy you feel? That’s interesting. I am not surprised many Darwinists would feel that way, because it makes it so much easier to avoid the hard question of what is happening in biology then.
Paging Mapou:
a gene is a symbolic code that represents the composition, organization or function of a living organism
sparc
March 3, 2015
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I don’t think a particle is just a concept. It is a thing.
The term "particle" is a category -- an abstraction. It refers to a vaguely defined class of "things" (small, localised objects). A gene is also "a thing" -- a DNA sequence. A technical definition can make this description more restrictive (not just any sequence but e.g. one that yields a functional RNA or protein product, according to Larry Moran). Even so, you may have some borderline types of genetic elements: active retrotransposons, pseudogenes (former bona fide genes gone defunct), etc.Piotr
March 3, 2015
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Piotr, I don't think a particle is just a concept. It is a thing. Now if you want to say a gene is akin to a mental concept, like say a word or a number-ok, go with that. Then I can make up new genes?phoodoo
March 3, 2015
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Its ok if the definition of a gene is fuzzy you feel?
Is it any more fuzzy than the notion of "particle" in physics, "number" in maths, or "word" in linguistics? Scientists are human and communicate using a natural language with its typical trade-off between convenience and precision. They can make their definitions stricter when precision is particularly important. Most of the time they can understand each other well without too much pedantry.Piotr
March 3, 2015
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A Darwinist is a person, not a concept.Joe
March 3, 2015
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phoodood @ 11 -
Its ok if the definition of a gene is fuzzy you feel?
Yes, as long as we accept that (at least implicitly, e.g. by switching to more precise terms when we want to be less fuzzy).
How do we evolve? By mutations to our genes? What are our genes? They are a concept. So when the concept of us gets mutated, we become something worse or something better sometimes. Oh brother.
Oh dear. You've shown a profound misunderstanding of the basic use of language. Note that "Darwinist" is also a concept, and concepts can't feel, so when you write ". I am not surprised many Darwinists would feel that way," you are making the same mistake. In the real world, we know that "Darwinist" and "gene" are concepts refer to something, and when we talk about Darwinists feeling, or genes mutating then we are talking about the objects that these concepts refer to.Bob O'H
March 3, 2015
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phoodoo,
Where is the public sphere do evolutionists make it clear that when they say Dawinism works by gene mutations ( a selfish gene even) which is usually neutral or detrimental, but occasionally beneficial, what they actually mean is not a mutation to anything, but the “concept” of a mutation to the concept of a gene?
I don't think I've seen evolutionists say that Darwinism works by "gene mutations," but simply mutations to DNA. As for where the difficulties of defining the gene is talked about by evolutionists in the public sphere - umm, where don't they? It's in the textbooks that I can remember. And Dawkins talks about the issues and difficulties of defining the gene rather extensively in The Selfish Gene. And Moran posted a link here where he discusses some of the issues. If these aren't the "public sphere", I have no idea what would be.goodusername
March 2, 2015
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To me this whole discussion is profoundly arrogant on the Darwinist part, in so many ways. Where is the public sphere do evolutionists make it clear that when they say Dawinism works by gene mutations ( a selfish gene even) which is usually neutral or detrimental, but occasionally beneficial, what they actually mean is not a mutation to anything, but the "concept" of a mutation to the concept of a gene? Do you think the Washington Post knows this, when they question Scott Walkers knowledge of evolution? Do Huffingtonpost readers know this when they laugh at Ben Carson for saying evolution has issues? Do high school students know that what they are being taught is a fuzzy "concept" of a gene, not a real thing? I don't think so Bob.phoodoo
March 2, 2015
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Bob, Its ok if the definition of a gene is fuzzy you feel? That's interesting. I am not surprised many Darwinists would feel that way, because it makes it so much easier to avoid the hard question of what is happening in biology then. How do we evolve? By mutations to our genes? What are our genes? They are a concept. So when the concept of us gets mutated, we become something worse or something better sometimes. Oh brother.phoodoo
March 2, 2015
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Art Hunt says a gene includes the binding sites, promoter and all that goes into transcription of the coding sequence. IOW it is more than just that coding sequence. However I cannot find anything that supports tat claim. Lenski's experiment does not as they have a duplicate gene that did not have all of the other stuff duplicated.Joe
March 2, 2015
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Mung @5
If gene frequencies don’t change then evolution is just a bunch of hooey.
But as it happens, organisms give birth and die, and not on a one-in-one-out basis, so gene frequencies do change. Evolution is saved!Hangonasec
March 2, 2015
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I think in practice the concept of the gene is a bit vague. From the population genetics perspective News' friend's definition is fine. But in practice that unit could be coding for a protein, or it could be a promoter (or something else). If we're doing beanbag genetics, it doesn't matter. For other areas of genetic it does matter, of course. And once you drill down into the sequences, it's clear that genes are a bit messy: there are DNA sequences that code for amino acid sequences, there are introns, regulatory sequences (that may or may not be next to the coding sequence) etc. See Larry's essay linked above for more. I actually don't think we need a strict definition of a gene. As a slightly fuzzy concept it works fine: most of the time we know what we're talking about, and if we need more precision we can use a more precise language. Incidentally, these problems with the definition of the gene have been known for a long time: I was taught about them as an undergrad a quarter of a century ago. So ENCODE and epigenetics are free of blame.Bob O'H
March 2, 2015
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Larry Moran:
A gene is a DNA sequence that is transcribed to produce a functional product.
Hi Larry, How do you determine whether "the concept of a gene" is itself the product of "a DNA sequence that is transcribed to produce a functional product." It’s ok if you don’t know. Really.Mung
March 1, 2015
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Larry Moran:
The concept of a gene is a fundamental part of the fields of genetics, molecular biology, evolution and all the rest of biology
Hi Larry, What is the gene for the gene concept? It's ok if you don't know. Really.Mung
March 1, 2015
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A gene is the fundamental unit of evolution. If gene frequencies don't change then evolution is just a bunch of hooey.Mung
March 1, 2015
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I think it's important to separate phenotypic definitions from evolutionary ones. The evolutionary gene is a stretch of DNA of indeterminate length, but with some degree of generational persistence as a unit. It is delimited by the amount of recombination that occurs around it. It does not necessarily map closely upon a discrete functional unit, or a definite organismal character. Also, I don't think that being functional depends upon having a transcript. If a DNA region - a promoter, say - has a specific sequence that is bound by a gene product, then it functions as both a developmental and an evolutionary gene, without needing transcription to exert its phenotypic effect. One could argue that it is 'really' the controlled region or the DNA specifying the binding molecule which is the gene, but the promoter remains a stretch of DNA with a phenotypic effect, even if it requires 'other DNA' to enable that effect to be exerted. This is, after all, the norm.Hangonasec
March 1, 2015
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Using 'genomic' in the definition of 'gene' is circular, IMO. I think a gene is a symbolic code that represents the composition, organization or function of a living organism. It has specified complexity. It screams "intelligent design".Mapou
March 1, 2015
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Larry Moran's discussion is very good. I am not sure I understand every variation but it seems that whether something is translated or not is not key. It is whether it has some function. Some genes according to Larry do not get translated and remain as RNA and are very functional. I don't think Larry buys the definition
The gene is a union of genomic sequences encoding a coherent set of potentially overlapping functional products.
But maybe he should add his thoughts.jerry
March 1, 2015
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What Is a Gene?Larry Moran
March 1, 2015
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