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Can a Darwinist consistently condemn a con man who couldn’t have done otherwise?

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Some readers will recall the case of the Dutch psychologist Diederik Stapel, former dean of the School of Social and Behavioral Sciences at Tilburg University, who was publicly exposed in 2011 for faking his data in several dozen published papers about human behavior that had made him famous – and who, after being caught, decided to publish a book about his con, detailing how and why he’d done it. Uncommon Descent ran a story about the case (see here), and another story about how it was exposed (see here), while James Barham discussed it at further length over on his blog, TheBestSchools.org, in an article entitled, More Scientists Behaving Badly. A story about the case appeared in The New York Times last week: The Mind of a Con Man, by Yudhijit Bhattacharjee.

The case has become something of an academic scandal, not merely because of the fraud perpetrated by Stapel, who doctored his data in at least 55 of his own papers, as well as 10 Ph.D. dissertations written by his students, but also because it cast the entire field of behavioral psychology into disrepute. In their final report on the case at the end of November 2011, the universities of Groningen and Tilburg found that “a general culture of careless, selective and uncritical handling of research and data” was what enabled Stapel’s fraud to go undetected for so long. While the report laid the blame for the fraud solely at Stapel’s feet and exonerated his students of any wrongdoing, it went on to blame Stapel’s peers, journal editors and reviewers of the field’s top journals for letting him get away with his fakery for a period of several years.

During his interview with Yudhijit Bhattacharjee for The New York Times, Stapel recalled his first fateful decision to doctor his research data, after a psychology experiment that went badly wrong:

The experiment — and others like it — didn’t give Stapel the desired results, he said. He had the choice of abandoning the work or redoing the experiment. But he had already spent a lot of time on the research and was convinced his hypothesis was valid. “I said — you know what, I am going to create the data set,” he told me.

… It took a few hours of trial and error, spread out over a few days, to get the data just right.

He said he felt both terrible and relieved. The results were published in The Journal of Personality and Social Psychology in 2004. “I realized — hey, we can do this,” he told me.

Stapel also professed contrition for his past misdeeds in the interview, as he attempted to explain his motivations for committing academic fraud:

Right away Stapel expressed what sounded like heartfelt remorse for what he did to his students. “I have fallen from my throne — I am on the floor,” he said, waving at the ground. “I am in therapy every week. I hate myself.”…

Stapel did not deny that his deceit was driven by ambition. But it was more complicated than that, he told me. He insisted that he loved social psychology but had been frustrated by the messiness of experimental data, which rarely led to clear conclusions. His lifelong obsession with elegance and order, he said, led him to concoct sexy results that journals found attractive. “It was a quest for aesthetics, for beauty — instead of the truth,” he said. He described his behavior as an addiction that drove him to carry out acts of increasingly daring fraud, like a junkie seeking a bigger and better high.

For my part, I hope that Stapel is as sorry as he declared himself to be, in his interview, and I have no wish to accuse him of insincerity. God alone knows the true state of his mind; God alone can judge him. It seems, however, that many people have questioned the sincerity of Stapel’s apology, following his recent decision to publish a book (called Derailed) describing how he pulled off his con. Among the cynics is Professor Jerry Coyne, who, in a recent post (April 27, 2013) over at Why Evolution is True, wrote:

He seems to mistake explanation for apology, and I think his only regret is that he got caught…

Stapel gives a lot of excuses but his apologies sound lame…

I don’t blame the system nearly as much as I do Stapel here. I think his students are also at fault: how can you put your name on a Ph.D. dissertation if you didn’t collect the data yourself?

…Yes, Stapel became depressed, but it seems more because he was found out, not because he committed fraud and ruined the careers of many of his students.

Coyne on why hard determinism entails that we are not morally responsible for our actions

What I find curious about Professor Coyne’s comments is that he blames Stapel for his actions, despite the fact that he is a “hard” determinist who denies the very notion of moral responsibility. In an article for The Chronicle Review entitled, You Don’t Have Free Will (March 18, 2012), Coyne spelt out with admirable lucidity the consequences of his deterministic philosophy:

So what are the consequences of realizing that physical determinism negates our ability to choose freely? Well, nihilism is not an option: We humans are so constituted, through evolution or otherwise, to believe that we can choose. What is seriously affected is our idea of moral responsibility, which should be discarded along with the idea of free will. If whether we act well or badly is predetermined rather than a real choice, then there is no moral responsibility — only actions that hurt or help others. That realization shouldn’t seriously change the way we punish or reward people, because we still need to protect society from criminals, and observing punishment or reward can alter the brains of others, acting as a deterrent or stimulus. What we should discard is the idea of punishment as retribution, which rests on the false notion that people can choose to do wrong.

In an exchange last year with “soft” determinist philosopher Russell Blackford, who thinks determinism is compatible with moral responsibility, Coyne discussed Blackford’s hypothetical case of a child who drowns in a pond while he stands by and does nothing to help the child. Are the child’s parents entitled to blame him, even if he insists that he couldn’t have done otherwise? Blackford certainly thought so: he argued that if he had wanted to, he could have saved the child, and for this reason, the parents’ anger against him would have been entirely justifiable, in this hypothetical scenario. Coyne pointed out (with perfect consistency) that if Blackford’s wants were determined by his genes and his environment, then there was no meaningful sense in which he could have done otherwise, and that therefore he was not to blame for his failure to save the child:

Yes, of course if you change the “desire-set” construed in that way, then your actions would have been different. But, Russell, your desire-set is fixed by your molecules: by your genes, physiology, and the determined environmental factors that impinge on them…

What it appears to boil down to … is whether or not the parents of the drowned child have a right to reproach Blackford for his dilatory and selfish behavior…

But in what sense are they “quite right” to complain that Russell didn’t save their child? They certainly feel aggrieved about this, for such feelings are evolved and powerful, but in my view Russell had no “moral responsibility” to save the child: he could only do what he did.

Coyne went on to add that the parents could express disapprobation at Blackford for his negligence in failing to save the child:

Yes, the parents could complain about what he didn’t do, and that, indeed, may affect not only Russell’s future behavior, making him more altruistic, but influence others to act more altruistically in the future. (Nobody — even pure determinists — deny that social approbation or disapprobation can influence people’s future behavior.)

But as Coyne explained in a follow-up response to Blackford (April 9, 2012), what made no sense, in his view, was their expressing moral indignation:

But he [Blackford] later argues that one can rightly blame someone for failing to save a drowning child. Note the word “rightly,” which assumes not just responsibility (which is okay with me, as blame changes future behavior, both of the “blamee” and onlookers), but moral responsibility. Russell certainly favors the idea of moral responsibility. But if he sees difficulty in understanding how one can be responsible for one’s own character (and he’s right: how could we be?), then whence the concept of moral responsibility?

To recap: Professor Coyne believes that we are not morally responsible for our actions, and that righteous indignation at people who engage in anti-social behavior is a misplaced emotion, which makes no sense as each of us is a biological automaton. We can express disapproval, and even “blame” people for their actions, if our aim is merely to prevent future recurrences of this behavior on the part of the individual concerned – or other individuals who might be inclined to imitate him. But what we cannot do, if we are consistent determinists, is express moral outrage at the offending individual.

Coyne’s inconsistency

Coyne’s latest comments in his recent post (April 27, 2012) on the scandal involving Dutch psychologist Diederik Stapel thus appear to be totally at odds with his declared views on determinism and free will, as he vents his spleen on a respected academic who faked his research data. There is an undeniable tone of indignation in Coyne’s remarks about Stapel: “He seems to mistake explanation for apology, and I think his only regret is that he got caught,” and he adds: “I don’t blame the system nearly as much as I do Stapel… Yes, Stapel became depressed, but it seems more because he was found out, not because he committed fraud and ruined the careers of many of his students.”

Professor Coyne seems to be implying here that Stapel should have thought about how his acts of deceit would impinge on the lives of others, and that he deserves blame for not having done so. “Should have” implies “could have.” But if Stapel’s thoughts and desires are the product of his genes and his environment, then in what sense could he have done otherwise than what he did, and how can he be blamed (in any moral sense of the word) for failing to advert to the effects that his act would have on other people? On Coyne’s account, Stapel’s failure to think of the needs of others ultimately reflects either a failure in his upbringing or a flaw in his genome. He couldn’t help that, so why reproach him for it? I can see why Coyne would want to reprogram Stapel’s stunted psyche, but I cannot for the life of me understand how Coyne, as a hard determinist who denies moral responsibility, could complain about Stapel’s thoughtlessness in committing acts which “ruined the careers of many of his students.” If Stapel couldn’t have refrained from committing those acts, then it makes no sense to say that he shouldn’t have done them. All that Coyne can consistently say is that acts like Stapel’s shouldn’t happen, insofar as they harm the interests of others and of society as a whole. But that’s simply tantamount to saying that society should try to prevent such acts from occurring – which is quite different from saying that the perpetrators of such acts shouldn’t have done them.

Why Charles Darwin would not have blamed Stapel for his actions

Coyne’s inability to justify the feeling of moral indignation which we commonly experience reflects a failing, not only in his own deterministic philosophy, but of Darwinism in general. Few people are aware that Darwin was a thorough-going determinist who denied the notion of moral responsibility as far back as 1837, some 22 years before the publication of his Origin of Species.

In his Notebook C: Transmutation of species (2-7.1838), Darwin espoused a mechanistic account of the human mind. The mis-spellings and grammar and punctuation errors are Darwin’s:

Thought (or desires more properly) being heredetary.- it is difficult to imagine it anything but structure of brain heredetary,. – analogy points out to this.- love of the deity effect of organization. oh you Materialist!

Why is thought, being a secretion of brain, more wonderful than gravity a property of matter? – It is our arrogance, it our admiration of ourselves. (Paragraph 166)

In his Notebook M [Metaphysics on morals and speculations on expression (1838) CUL-DAR125], which was marked “Private”, Darwin recorded his decision not to go public with his materialism. He resolved:

To avoid stating how far, I believe, in Materialism, say only that emotions, instincts degrees of talent, which are heredetary are so because brain of child resembles parent stock. (Paragraph 57)

In addition to being a materialist, Darwin was also a consistent determinist. In his other metaphysical writings from that period (c. 1837), Darwin made it clear that he did not really regard human beings as morally responsible for their good or bad choices. He also held that criminals should be punished solely in order to deter others who might break the law:

(a) one well feels how many actions are not determined by what is called free will, but by strong invariable passions — when these passions weak, opposed & complicated one calls them free will — the chance of mechanical phenomena.— (mem: M. Le Comte one of philosophy, & savage calling laws of nature chance)…

The general delusion about free will obvious.— because man has power of action, & he can seldom analyse his motives (originally mostly INSTINCTIVE, & therefore now great effort of reason to discover them: this is important explanation) he thinks they have none.

Effects.— One must view a wrecked man like a sickly one — We cannot help loathing a diseased offensive object, so we view wickedness.— it would however be more proper to pity them [than] to hate & be disgusted with them. Yet it is right to punish criminals; but solely to deter others.— It is not more strange that there should be necessary wickedness than disease.

This view should teach one profound humility, one deserves no credit for anything. (yet one takes it for beauty & good temper), nor ought one to blame others.

(See Darwin’s Old and USELESS Notes about the moral sense & some metaphysical points written about the year 1837 & earlier, pp. 25-27. For original transcription, see Paul Barrett, et al., Charles Darwin’s Notebooks, 1836-1844, New York: Cornell University Press, 1987, p. 608.)

A true disciple of Darwin, then, would find it impossible to blame Diederik Stapel for his acts of academic fraud. On Darwin’s view, a man like Stapel is simply “a diseased offensive object,” whom we should pity rather than blame – even if we feel the need to punish him, in order to deter others from imitating his example.

While he may have concealed his philosophical views from the public at large, Darwin was scrupulously honest in his scientific research. He believed that science is a quest for Truth with a capital T, and he also believed in carefully setting forth the objections to a theory before proceeding to refute them. On this point, his views diverged sharply from the recently expressed views of Dutch psychologist Diederik Stapel, who revealed in his New York Times interview with Yudhijit Bhattacharjee that it was his purely pragmatic notion of “truth” that enabled him to rationalize his deed:

Several times in our conversation, Stapel alluded to having a fuzzy, postmodernist relationship with the truth, which he agreed served as a convenient fog for his wrongdoings. “It’s hard to know the truth,” he said. “When somebody says, ‘I love you,’ how do I know what it really means?” At the time, the Netherlands would soon be celebrating the arrival of St. Nicholas, and the younger of his two daughters sat down by the fireplace to sing a traditional Dutch song welcoming St. Nick. Stapel remarked to me that children her age, which was 10, knew that St. Nick wasn’t really going to come down the chimney. “But they like to believe it anyway, because it assures them of presents,” he told me with a wink.

Apparently Stapel defines truth as “whatever works.” And it was this pragmatic notion of “truth” that enabled Stapel to rationalize his original act of academic fraud, as he acknowledged in his interview:

The experiment — and others like it — didn’t give Stapel the desired results, he said. He had the choice of abandoning the work or redoing the experiment. But he had already spent a lot of time on the research and was convinced his hypothesis was valid. “I said — you know what, I am going to create the data set,” he told me.

The Darwinist conception of truth

What Stapel did raises an important ethical question, however: is there a fundamental contradiction between Darwin’s conception of truth with a capital T and Stapel’s pragmatic notion of truth? In particular, can a Darwinist consistently condemn falsifying research data, or for that matter, concocting bogus arguments, in order to persuade people that Darwinian evolution is true? I am not asking here whether Charles Darwin would have approved of such acts of deceit; I think we can all agree that he would have condemned them unequivocally. The question I am asking is whether Darwin’s philosophical worldview could legitimize deceit (the telling of small untruths) in the service of a “higher truth.” And I think the answer is “yes.” My grounds for this conclusion have to do with the nature of truth itself, as Darwinism (and more generally, scientific naturalism) conceives it.

Darwinism is wedded to a notion of methodological naturalism, which Darwin originally espoused because he believed that the only good scientific explanation is one which explains everything in terms of physical laws, which enable scientists to predict effects from causes, in a deterministic fashion. Darwin set out the conditions that he believed a good scientific explanation must satisfy in a short essay which he jotted down while he was reading selected passages from Dr. John MacCullough’s book, Proofs and Illustrations of the Attributes of God (London, James Duncan, Paternoster Row, 1837). For those who are interested, here’s the reference: Darwin, C. R. ‘Macculloch. Attrib of Deity’ [Essay on Theology and Natural Selection] (1838). CUL-DAR71.53-59. Viewers can read it here at Darwin Online.) Darwin’s essay contains a telling passage in section 5, which succinctly summarizes why Darwin believed that appeals to “the will of God” explained nothing:

N.B. The explanation of types of structure in classes — as resulting from the will of the deity, to create animals on certain plans, — is no explanation — it has not the character of a physical law /& is therefore utterly useless.— it foretells nothing/ because we know nothing of the will of the Deity, how it acts & whether constant or inconstant like that of man.— the cause given we know not the effect.

Darwinism’s implications for ethical truth

What, the reader will ask, does this have to do with the moral legitimacy of lying in the cause of science? The implication follows once we realize that on a naturalistic worldview, there can be no autonomous domain of objective ethical truths. Ethical principles are simply rules which allow us all to get along. Few Darwinists have articulated this point more perceptively than Professor Jerry Coyne. As he put it in a post entitled, Uncle Eric on scientism (December 12, 2012) in response to fellow atheist Eric Macdonald, Coyne took issue with Macdonald’s expressed belief that there are some actions which are objectively wrong. Coyne answered that while he also condemned certain barbaric actions as wrong, he could do so only in a subjective sense:

Now I agree, of course, that throwing acid in the face of Afghan schoolgirls for trying to learn is wrong. But it is not an “objective” moral wrong — that is, you cannot deduce it from mere observation, not without adding some reasons why you think it’s wrong. And those reasons are based on opinions. In this case, the “opinion” is that it’s wrong to hurt anyone for trying to go to school. In other words, Eric claims that moral dicta are objective ones, on the par with the “knowledge” of science.

But such dicta are not “truths,” but “guides for living”. And some people, like the odious Taliban who perpetuate these crimes, do disagree. How do you prove, objectively, that they’re wrong? You need to bring in other subjective criteria.

The problem with “objective” moral truths is much clearer in less clear-cut cases. Is it objectively true that abortion is wrong, or that a moral society must give everyone health care? You can’t ascertain these “truths” by observation; you deduce them from some general principles of right and wrong that are, at bottom, opinion. (Of course, some opinions are more well-founded than others, and that’s what philosophy is good for.)

In other words, Eric is committing here the very sin he decried (as I recall) in Sam Harris’s book The Moral Landscape: he is saying that there are scientifically establishable truths about ethics. And if that’s true, then let Eric tell us what those truths are — without first defining, based on his taste, what is “moral” and “immoral.” Let him give us a list of all the behaviors he considers objectively immoral.

Now, I maintain that there is no objective morality: that morality is a guide for how people should get along in society, and that what is “moral” comports in general with the rules we need to live by in a harmonious society — one with greater “well being,” as Harris puts it. A society in which half the inhabitants are dispossessed because they lack a Y chromosome is not a society brimming with well being, and I wouldn’t want to live in it. And yes, what promotes “well being” can in principle be established empirically. But that still presumes that the best society is one that promotes the greatest “well being,” and that is an opinion, not a fact.

Could a consistent Darwinist morally condemn deceit in the cause of Darwinism?

Which brings us to the question: Is a society which indoctrinates children with deceptively simple or fallacious arguments for Darwinism (say, arguments of the kind described in Dr. Jonathan Wells’ Icons of Evolution) doing a bad thing? On Coyne’s logic, a Darwinist cannot consistently condemn such behavior. Here’s why.

If you are totally convinced that:

(i) truth is a scientific notion;
(ii) truth can only ascertained by either logic or observation;
(iii) Darwinism is objectively true in a scientific sense of the term; and
(iv) a society which recognizes the reality of Darwinian evolution, is “better” – or at least, works better – than one that doesn’t,

then it seems to me that the logic of engaging in deceptive persuasion, in the cause of Darwinism, is inescapable.

I am not referring here to a scientist publishing data which could impede future scientific research, or that would be liable to be exposed, bringing science itself into disrepute. Let’s suppose instead that the deception is more subtle: say, a published study that serves to “refute” a popular scientific objection to Darwinism (e.g. is there enough time available for evolution?), and make creationists or Intelligent Design proponents look silly; or for that matter, continuing to publish, in children’s science textbooks, an old argument for Darwinism that’s been trotted out for decades (e.g. Haeckel’s embryo drawings) but which scientists now know to be false. If you passionately believed in the truth of Darwinism, and if your notion of truth were a naturalistic one, then I do not see how you could morally condemn such actions.

And I haven’t even mentioned the propaganda for the materialistic view of mind that pervades high school and university science textbooks. When was the last time you saw one that gave a fair hearing to scientific arguments for dualism, or exposed the fallacies (which I have written about here) in “scientific” claims that free will is an illusion? And when was the last time that students were exposed to rebuttals of fallacious arguments for materialism – despite the fact that even materialist philosophers such as William Lycan have acknowledged that there are no good arguments for materialism? Once you accept materialism, of course, then Darwinism becomes a much easier pill to swallow.

But it is materialism itself – a fundamentally false notion that clouds one’s entire view of the world – which is the ultimate deception. The story of Santa Claus pales in comparison.

P.S. For those readers who may have been wondering what I’ve been doing for the past month or so, I should explain that I’ve been working on a reply to a recent online essay on humans and animals, that’s somehow turned into a 30-chapter book! My apologies for the long delay. My book should be ready in a week or two.

Comments
Hi StephenB,
Emotions are based on beliefs.
I would argue that this is not the case. For example, it is undeniable that your emotions (fear, anger, sadness, joy, disgust, etc) can be altered (even against your own will!) by pharmacological means, or by neural trauma, or by targeted neural stimulation, but these means will not necessarily alter any of your beliefs. Two people may have very different emotional responses to the same belief, and one person may have different emotional responses to the same belief at different times, and so on.
Despair follows from the belief that either life is meaningless or is no longer worth living; hope follows from the belief that life has meaning and is worth living.
But the same person, with the same beliefs and the same life circumstance, may at one point feel hopeful and happy, and at another time feel despairing and hopeless, and be incapable of changing their emotional state simply by act of will. We all experience this, but of course people with bipolar disorder exhibit these emotional changes much more dramatically, and their transitions are not obviously not brought about by changes in their belief systems.
To change an emotion, one must first change the belief that spawns it by behaving in a way that is consistent with the belief or emotion that one wants to attain. That is why a wise counselor will tell someone in the throes of depression to go help someone who is worse off than he is.
And that same wise counselor would never tell somebody to simply change their beliefs or desires or emotions by act of will! "If you want to be happy, then simply choose to be happy! If you want to stop desiring cigarettes, simply choose to no longer desire them! If you want to believe you can fly, simply believe it!" Clearly, these sorts of admonitions are misguided, because nobody can choose their beliefs and desires by acts of will.
We choose to believe that the behavioral change will work.
I disagree completely. I believe that behavioral changes are effective in helping people overcome depression, for example, because I have both experienced this and seen it many times in other people. I could not possibly change this belief of mine simply by choosing to, and I'm certain this is true of you as well: Could you simply decide that you believe otherwise, and then as a result be actually convinced that behavioral changes do not work in this regard? Of course you could not.
By 1930, all denominations, except for the Catholic Church, had caved in to social pressure from the secularists, deciding that there is really nothing wrong with the practice after all. (my emphasis)
Yet again, you give an example of people changing their beliefs because they are persuaded to, and not because they simply chose to. Could you, by sheer power of will, decide that artificial birth control was a great boon to wholesome and healthy lives? I'm guessing this would not be within your power, even on pain of death. You could say you believed it, and you could act as though you believed it, but inside yourself you would know that you do not believe it, and there is nothing your will could do about it. Cheers, RDFishRDFish
May 1, 2013
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Hi Phinehas,
RDF: ...[I]f we consider the case where we choose to expose ourselves to new influences in hopes that our beliefs will change over time, we can’t predict whether or not it will work – we just have to wait and see. PHINEHAS: Why can’t we predict whether or not it will work? I understand that we might not be able to predict with 100% accuracy, but I routinely predict the outcome of certain actions with a very high rate of success. Every time I sit in a chair, I predict that it will hold my weight.
I was clearly referring to predictions regarding which of our beliefs, if any, will change when we expose ourselves to new influences. I was obviously not talking about prediction in general. Yes of course we can make all sorts of predictions about all sorts of things, and some of those predictions will be quite certain. But the issue here is whether or not we can freely choose our beliefs and desires. Several people, including yourself, have argued that while we may not be able to choose our beliefs and desires directly and immediately, we can choose to open our minds and arrange our circumstances in such a way that we allow our beliefs and desires to be changed over time. I am pointing out that this is not really using our will to choose our beliefs and desires in the normal way we think of volitional action. With volitional action, we actually choose what we do - we do not just put ourself in some circumstance and wait to see what happens.
According to what I understand you to be proposing, it would be just as accurate to say that the choice to do something of your own volition would also be a choice that arose from beliefs and desires that you did not choose. So how can this be used to show the two are very different?
I am not arguing that all of our decisions follow logically from our beliefs and desires - they clearly do not. What I am pointing out is that we do not choose our beliefs and desires, and so to the extent that our choices are entailed by our beliefs and desires, our choices are not free. Let's agree that volitional choices are the conscious, willful choices that we make all the time. You can make a choice right now, for example, regarding whether or not to respond to this post. Let's agree that this choice is free, by which I mean here that you have the power to act in either way - you can start typing a response if you choose to, or you can refrain from doing so, and which one occurs is entirely under your conscious, willful control. Agreed? In contrast, you have no such control over your beliefs and your desires. Nobody can simply change their beliefs and desires by making a conscious decision to do so. We can only decide to act in different ways that may or may not end up changing our beliefs or desires in one way or another.
If you strip that out, you are left with that it “seems” very different (which is apparently not a perspective held by most of the other posters here) on the basis that its influence is not direct. This seems like a technicality to me.
Ok, but to me it seems utterly different, because instead of using your will to change your belief you are using you will to put yourself in a situation where you're hoping something else will change your beliefs for you. It would be like you claiming that you are able to solve difficult problems in mathematics, when in reality all you can do is find the answers by asking other people or looking them up. You may (or may not) end up with the answer you're looking for, but not by virtue of your internal ability to do math.
Either denying or assuming the importance of intent could run very close to denying or assuming free will, which is the very thing at issue.
I might intend to rid myself of my desire to eat doughnuts, but it is not in my power to do actually do so. I can only refrain from actually eating them, but my desire remains.
Of course we can see that, in the sense that we are not logically precluded from doing so. Interestingly, however, you would appear to be logically precluded from being persuaded otherwise.
This is actually the opposite of what I have been saying (over and over again!). Of course people might be persuaded to change their beliefs, and we can even sometimes (but sometimes not) persuade ourselves to change our own minds by reflecting on and reanalyzing the evidence. What we cannot do is simply decide to believe something we do not believe, or desire something we do not desire, instead of being persuaded.
Consider this: If you believe that you cannot change your beliefs,...
Please read what I've said: It is perfectly obvious that everyone's beliefs change quite frequently! My point is that when we speak of free will, we are talking about being able to freely choose things, not trying to set up circumstances where what we hope will happen might happen.
Unfortunately, you are forever incapable of doing the same, doomed by your own belief in its impossibility.
It is considerate of you to express sympathy for me, but I'm afraid it is quite misplaced. Fortunately, I am just as capable of doing what I want as you are! Cheers, RDFishRDFish
May 1, 2013
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RDFish
You point out that Victor Frankl writes that we have the power to choose hope over dispair. I think his book is insightful regarding people’s ability to cope with suffering, and inspiring in that regard. I would submit that hope and despair are emotions rather than beliefs, however.
Emotions are based on beliefs. Despair follows from the belief that either life is meaningless or is no longer worth living; hope follows from the belief that life has meaning and is worth living. To change an emotion, one must first change the belief that spawns it by behaving in a way that is consistent with the belief or emotion that one wants to attain. That is why a wise counselor will tell someone in the throes of depression to go help someone who is worse off than he is.
What people do is – as you say – try to replace old habits with new habits, or exercise “disciplined practice”, in hopes that these behaviors will change their emotions, because we cannot change them by simply by choosing. The same is true of our desires.
We choose to believe that the behavioral change will work. Otherwise, we would not go to the trouble of uprooting bad habits and replacing them with good habits. As a chain-smoker, one chooses to quit, believing that the new behavior will eliminate the unhealthy desire, which it does.
I on the other hand was using “belief” to mean “opinion regarding a factual proposition”, and was talking about free choice as the sort of thing that we can accomplish with our power of will alone, as when we choose a component for something we’re designing, or choose to say or act one way instead of another.
For centuries, every major Christian denomination accepted the traditional belief that artificial birth control is evil. By 1930, all denominations, except for the Catholic Church, had caved in to social pressure from the secularists, deciding that there is really nothing wrong with the practice after all. They simply chose to change their beliefs simply because they found the teaching too hard to bear. While the Universal Catholic Church held the line during the 1960’s and the advent of the pill, many local bishops, priests, and laypeople participated in the corruption and caved in as well. As of now, over 90% of Catholics, (and a significant number of bishops and priests) have rejected the teaching of their own church, which never changes and never will. Most Catholics and non-Catholics simply, and with no rational justification, decided to change their beliefs to match their lifestyle. I could provide hundreds of similar examples. “If you don't behave as you believe, you will end by believing as you behave. .---Fulton J. SheenStephenB
May 1, 2013
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RDFish:
That is true, but I’ve also pointed out that even if we consider the case where we choose to expose ourselves to new influences in hopes that our beliefs will change over time, we can’t predict whether or not it will work – we just have to wait and see.
Why can't we predict whether or not it will work? I understand that we might not be able to predict with 100% accuracy, but I routinely predict the outcome of certain actions with a very high rate of success. Every time I sit in a chair, I predict that it will hold my weight. Any time I have intent behind my actions, I am predicting a certain outcome. Sometimes what I intend does not occur, but the vast majority of the time it does.
This seems to be very different from a volitional choice. Moreover, that which changes our beliefs (or fails to do so) is not actually our original choice, but rather the influences we’ve chosen to subject ourself to. And finally, the choice to try and change our beliefs by subjecting ourselves to new influences is itself a choice which arose from beliefs and desires that we did not choose.
Your last sentence makes no sense at all as supporting evidence for your premise in the first sentence. According to what I understand you to be proposing, it would be just as accurate to say that the choice to do something of your own volition would also be a choice that arose from beliefs and desires that you did not choose. So how can this be used to show the two are very different? If you strip that out, you are left with that it "seems" very different (which is apparently not a perspective held by most of the other posters here) on the basis that its influence is not direct. This seems like a technicality to me. Is murder for hire very different from actually pulling the trigger? (After all, you can't predict with 100% accuracy that the hireling will follow through, right?) In order for the two to be very different, I think you have to first throw out the primacy of intent. And perhaps this gets to the heart of the difference in perspectives. Either denying or assuming the importance of intent could run very close to denying or assuming free will, which is the very thing at issue.
Hopefully you can see now that my points were not contradictory at all, and that they are quite evidently (and demonstrably) true!
Of course we can see that, in the sense that we are not logically precluded from doing so. Interestingly, however, you would appear to be logically precluded from being persuaded otherwise. Consider this: If you believe that you cannot change your beliefs, then it becomes self-fulfilling prophecy, leaving you stuck in a loop from which you cannot break free. If, on the other hand, you believe that you can change your beliefs, then there is no constraint against either continuing to believe the same or believing otherwise. I choose to believe the latter, and quite enjoy the freedom it brings. Unfortunately, you are forever incapable of doing the same, doomed by your own belief in its impossibility. ;)Phinehas
May 1, 2013
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JLAfan2001 You write
It seems to me that theism has a hard time defining where our consciousness comes from just as much as atheism or scientism. At least with science we may, in principle at least, find out where it does come from an our it originated. All we have with theism is that God did it.
I will not ever pretend to speak for all theists. But I will speak for myself. Again since we are talking about immaterial stuff I will give a material analogy. Here is what your argument sounds like to me. Assume we were a primitive people who did not know how rockets were made and had no hope of discovering the technology. IOW we were primitive people as ignorant about rocketry as natural science is about the spiritual. I say to you, "I read a book about people who made it to the moon using rockets." You say, "Well, we can't really know anything about rockets, but I do know about wooden ladders. At least wooden ladder technology has the possibility of someday getting us to the moon. You people who say they did it with rockets don't know how to build a rocket, so I am going to stick with building better wooden ladders." I think its a pretty accurate analogy. There is just no way possible to make it to the moon with a wooden ladder. Every single day you do things which CANNOT be attributable to natural means. Its not that science has not discovered how consciousness works, it is that it can't. I will try to explain to you why. Free will, consciousness, the soul, whatever you want to call it has the great, "I won't". It has the ability to say NO. Natural processes only have available to them two types of processes. 1. Processes which are contingent or necessary. If A then B. 2. Stochastic processes. If A then . Neither of these are "NO". Natural processes therefore can not create any information. Because in order to create information you have to do something where a choice is possible. You have to have had the opportunity to answer differently. Where there is not choice, no new information is created. By definition a choice can not be random or necessary. Thus the only option available to scientism is to either deny that choice exists or to try to explain choices by a complex pattern of random events and contingent events. But trying to construct a choice by a series of random events and contingent events is like trying to reach the moon with a wooden ladder. It just can't be done. SO... since in typing this response I made a lot of choices that were neither random nor contingent, I rightly believe that there is free will. I have created a lot of information here, and you will probably respond with a lot of information. That information which we generate is proof that the will is not the result of natural processes. So "science of the gaps", arguments ( like what you posit above ) are really ineffective. You can't say, science doesn't know yet, but someday it will, therefore scientism. Science can never account for the generation of new information. Science can never account for choices. I choose to believe in God because even though I recognize that I can never figure out God by my knowledge, I recognize that he can choose to communicate to me. He can also create something in my world that can never be explained without him. Human free will is something created by God that I can't explain except by God. Not that I don't know how it works by natural processes, but it can't ever work by natural processes. Of course, you can CHOOSE to disbelieve this, but to do so would mean you have exercised your will. That you don't see the self-contradiction there is absolutely amazing to me.JDH
May 1, 2013
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Hi StephenB, On one hand, you say
Quite often, a chosen belief is facilitated by a willful ignornace of the facts that would cause that belief to change.
On the other hand, I presented you with some facts that might cause your belief to change (@56), and you seem to have ignored them! (I'm referring to my point about your inability to change your belief regarding something you actually disbelieve, simply by choosing to). You point out that Victor Frankl writes that we have the power to choose hope over dispair. I think his book is insightful regarding people's ability to cope with suffering, and inspiring in that regard. I would submit that hope and despair are emotions rather than beliefs, however. Likewise your example of someone overcoming their fear of public speaking: It is stretching the meaning of "belief" to say that fear of public speaking is a "belief" - again, most people would say that fear is an emotion. You might argue that emotions are types of beliefs, thereby contradicting my observation that we cannot choose our beliefs. But besides the fact that emotions are not really the same as beliefs (the latter being a conviction regarding some fact claim in the sense I've been using it), it is also clear that people cannot simply choose their emotions - otherwise, wouldn't we all simply choose to be hopeful, fearless, and happy all the time? What people do is - as you say - try to replace old habits with new habits, or exercise "disciplined practice", in hopes that these behaviors will change their emotions, because we cannot change them by simply by choosing. The same is true of our desires. It appears to me that you are invested in the idea that we have the sort of free will (perhaps with supernatural assistance, as you say) that enables us to choose our beliefs at will, and that my arguments and examples will not affect your that belief of yours. That's fine, but again, I hope you can see now that you were mistaken to assert that my points were contradictory, and realize that our difference boils down to semantics: You consider emotions to be a sort of belief, and you consider volitional choice to consist of behavioral changes that may (or may not) over time have an affect on those emotions. I on the other hand was using "belief" to mean "opinion regarding a factual proposition", and was talking about free choice as the sort of thing that we can accomplish with our power of will alone, as when we choose a component for something we're designing, or choose to say or act one way instead of another. Cheers, RDFishRDFish
May 1, 2013
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tjguy:
So lets take creationism as an example. Many people believe it is an irrational idea and they could never believe it. They think it is so irrational that they are not even open to examining the issue. But that is their choice. One might choose to examine the issue and another might not. The choice to examine it may or may not result in a change in belief. Some might choose not to believe it to protect themselves from ridicule. Others might be more concerned about the truth and so they are willing to believe it if they become convinced it is true. Sometimes it costs is something to believe something. Some of the Pharisees that witnessed Jesus raise Lazurus from the dead choose to follow Jesus and others who witnessed the same miracle chose to plot to kill Jesus. They couldn’t deny the miracle, but they chose to reject Jesus. Just as the law holds people for their choices/actions, so God holds us responsible for our choices/actions.
These are both excellent examples of the will's power to choose belief. Quite often, a chosen belief is facilitated by a willful ignornace of the facts that would cause that belief to change. If, for example, the committed atheist suspects that reason might lead him to a belief in God, he may choose to reject reason's rules. It happens every day on this site. None of this is to say that one can, in every circumstance, choose to change his belief. The point is that it often happens that way.StephenB
May 1, 2013
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Chesire in #48
But the problem is that if consciousness is merely reduced to matter, then concepts such as free will and morality cease to exist. Matter can’t make decisions. Matter can’t be “right” or “wrong”. There is no such thing as an inherently “evil” chemical reaction. Matter is simply what it is. There is no such thing as an “evil” rock or a “wise” rock. There is simply a rock that is bound to it’s intrinsic properties. Yet materialists are essentially arguing that the only differece between you and a rock is the arrangement of the atoms. But simply rearranging something doesn’t suddenly confer upon it the ability to have free will or morality. What people like Coyne don’t understand is that when they preach reductionism as forcefully as they do, they’ve pulled the rug out from under themselves when it comes to having any conversation about choices and morality. In Coyne’s eyes, for example, i’m unbelievably stupid (if not immoral) for advocating intelligent design. But his own reductionist position makes these words meaningless and impotent. How can I be stupid or immoral if that’s simply the reality of me as matter?
This is an excellent point and quite valid. I'm reminded of this (in)famous quote from Dawkins, "It is absolutely safe to say that if you meet somebody who claims not to believe in evolution, that person is ignorant, stupid or insane (or wicked, but I'd rather not consider that)." Why would he rather not consider "wicked" (or stupid or insane)? I suspect part of the reason is because the very concept of "wicked", implying as it does the existence of actual 'evil', is not ground Dawkins wants to defend, given his materialistic worldview. As Chesire clearly points out, how can one be "wicked" due to the mere arrangement of matter that makes them human rather than, say, rock? The most Dawkins (or Coyne or any strict materialist) can say is "I prefer E, and anyone who denies or rejects E, or prefers D instead of E, is, in my opinion, ignorant, stupid, insane or wicked." But why ought Dawkins's personal preference or opinion matter or be the guideline from which to judge what is or is not "wicked"? If logical consistency were the standard, then Dawkins et.al. could not even answer the question. There simply is no Darwinian evolutionary pathway that confers the trait of rightness or wrongness onto anything. There is no gene that produces rightness. According to the Darwinian story, as amplified by Dawkins, Coyne and so many others, biological systems merely conserve those traits that confer fitness into the next generation. Natural selection does not consider, indeed can not consider, what is right and what is wrong in any meaningful, moralistic sense. To think so is just utter nonsense...or, ignorant, stupid, insane or...wicked...which I'm happy to consider!DonaldM
May 1, 2013
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I have some questions concerning consciousness for the theists here. It seems that there is agreement that evolution and naturalism isn’t sufficient enough to count for our consciousness and that our minds, beliefs, free will etc is more than brain chemistry. From a theistic perspective, where does it all come from? God? If so, when did he fuse humanity with it since science, through anthropology and genetics, has proven that we didn’t descend through a first couple? When and how was it passed on to the rest of us? Through the genes, DNA? Which ones? Does He fuse us with it individually instead of as a whole? When does it happen? Does it happen at conception, birth, embryo development, one year old? How do we find it? Is it in our body, our brain, our genes? It seems to me that theism has a hard time defining where our consciousness comes from just as much as atheism or scientism. At least with science we may, in principle at least, find out where it does come from an our it originated. All we have with theism is that God did it.JLAfan2001
May 1, 2013
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So lets take creationism as an example. Many people believe it is an irrational idea and they could never believe it. They think it is so irrational that they are not even open to examining the issue. But that is their choice. One might choose to examine the issue and another might not. The choice to examine it may or may not result in a change in belief. Some might choose not to believe it to protect themselves from ridicule. Others might be more concerned about the truth and so they are willing to believe it if they become convinced it is true. Sometimes it costs is something to believe something. Some of the Pharisees that witnessed Jesus raise Lazurus from the dead choose to follow Jesus and others who witnessed the same miracle chose to plot to kill Jesus. They couldn't deny the miracle, but they chose to reject Jesus. Just as the law holds people for their choices/actions, so God holds us responsible for our choices/actions.tjguy
May 1, 2013
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RDFish:
I would say that Frankl’s book is complex and multi-faceted, but the main theme is that life has meaning (specifically that religion, love, suffering, and other things give life meaning), but perhaps you remember other passages that deal with how we can freely choose to believe various things.
Frankl's main argument is that we have the power to choose hope (the belief that life has meaning) over despair (the belief that life has no meaning) even under the worst possible circumstances. Frankly, I question whether this type of heroic virtue is possible without God's supernatural help, but the fact remains that it is possible. In less dramatic circumstances, we can routinely choose to change our beliefs and desires by simply changing our behavior. Aspiring public speakers conquer their fears and negative beliefs through the power of choice and disciplined practice. Habitual smokers confront their unhealthy desires by replacing old habits with new habits.StephenB
May 1, 2013
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Hi StephenB,
The theme of Frankl’s book refutes your claim. He insists that we can, through the power of will, change our beliefs.
I would say that Frankl's book is complex and multi-faceted, but the main theme is that life has meaning (specifically that religion, love, suffering, and other things give life meaning), but perhaps you remember other passages that deal with how we can freely choose to believe various things.
RDF: I’ve said many times now that our beliefs and desires change all the time, and are obviously affected by other choices we’ve made. But nobody can simply choose, using their will, to believe something they do not believe, nor desire something they do not desire, or vice-versa. SB: Did you notice that the point of your first sentence (our beliefs and desires are affected by the choices we make) is contradicted by the point of your second sentence (we cannot affect our beliefs and desires with our choices)?
No, there is no contradiction. Let's look at my two points again, in more detail: 1) In my first point, I observe that some choices we make (whether or not those choices are "free" in whatever sense) may (or may not) subsequently affect our beliefs. For example, if I choose to go to school, my experiences in school may result in changes to my beliefs about astronomy, biology, chemistry, and so on. We cannot predict how our beliefs will change beforehand - we have to wait and see if and how our beliefs change because of our exposure to the class materials. It could be that we find the curricula unconvincing, for example, and our beliefs don't change at all. 2) My second point is that this is completely different from making a volitional choice about what we believe. Nobody can simply choose to believe something by sheer power of will. If you don't agree, just try it! Think of something you don't believe - for example, that Darwinian evolution successfully accounts for biological complexity. Now, try to use your power of will to make yourself believe it. Did it work? No, of course not. Hopefully you can see now that my points were not contradictory at all, and that they are quite evidently (and demonstrably) true! Cheers, RDFishRDFish
April 30, 2013
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Hi Chance, Thank you for your thoughtful comments. I'll try to be succinct in my response and illuminate our differences.
1) Just because we cannot choose to change any of our beliefs at will from one moment to the next, it does not follow that belief modification does not result from acts of will.
That is true, but I've also pointed out that even if we consider the case where we choose to expose ourselves to new influences in hopes that our beliefs will change over time, we can't predict whether or not it will work - we just have to wait and see. This seems to be very different from a volitional choice. Moreover, that which changes our beliefs (or fails to do so) is not actually our original choice, but rather the influences we've chosen to subject ourself to. And finally, the choice to try and change our beliefs by subjecting ourselves to new influences is itself a choice which arose from beliefs and desires that we did not choose. You are also saying that we ought to keep our minds open and pay attention so that our beliefs are well justified. I completely agree. But keeping our minds open and subjecting ourselves to new influences is simply not the same thing as willfully choosing one belief over another.
2) Just as our free will is constrained by physical realities, beliefs formed by direct experience, or lack thereof, are constrained by those experiential realities. This was the purpose of my free will analogy at #33.
I understand that you are arguing that while we can't choose whether or not to believe our sense impressions, we can choose whether or not to believe more abstract propositions. However, I've given examples of abstract propositions that we cannot choose to believe or disbelieve as well. I'm certain, for example, that your will is not capable of engendering the belief in your mind that humiliating children for comedic enjoyment is a moral and wholesome pastime, even though that proposition (and its contradiction) is certainly abstract and not directly perceivable via our senses.
Sure, we experience desires, but we can also exercise control over them, choosing not to act on them, even to the point of changing them over time.
When we choose not to act on some desire, presumably we do so for some reason, and that reason derives from other beliefs and desires, which are likewise outside of our conscious volitional control. And if we have no reason for our choice, that does not seem to be volitional either - it seems random (or determined by unconscious factors).
Without specific evidences in my background knowledge, multiple alternate scenarios might fit the observations. Less evidence implies less constraint of reasonable possibilities.
If I understand you, you are here saying that while we can't choose something to believe something that contradicts our knowledge or experience, when faced with a number of plausible alternatives, we can choose to believe one over another. But either you have some reason for choosing one over another (and that reason must depend on yet other beliefs), or you are choosing one for no reason (which is irrational). Cheers, RDFishRDFish
April 30, 2013
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RDFish
By the way I’ve read “Man’s Search For Meaning”, and found it tremendously insightful, but nothing he says has anything to do with the issues being discussed here.
I am surprised by your comment. The theme of Frankl's book refutes your claim. He insists that we can, through the power of will, change our beliefs.
I’ve said many times now that our beliefs and desires change all the time, and are obviously affected by other choices we’ve made. But nobody can simply choose, using their will, to believe something they do not believe, nor desire something they do not desire, or vice-versa.
Did you notice that the point of your first sentence (our beliefs and desires are affected by the choices we make) is contradicted by the point of your second sentence (we cannot affect our beliefs and desires with our choices)?StephenB
April 30, 2013
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RDFish @35, Let me make a couple of claims up front in response to your comments. 1) Just because we cannot choose to change any of our beliefs at will from one moment to the next, it does not follow that belief modification does not result from acts of will. 2) Just as our free will is constrained by physical realities, beliefs formed by direct experience, or lack thereof, are constrained by those experiential realities. This was the purpose of my free will analogy at #33. You wrote,
"Take any belief at all – that the Earth orbits the Sun, or that dogs can’t talk, or that you have two feet. I assume you have firmly-held beliefs about these propositions, and also that you could not for the life of you simply decide to believe otherwise."
Each of those examples is an experience-constrained belief. That's the reason for the introduction of definitions for the word. I can only repeat what I've already said: we don't simply believe the sky to be blue, we experience it as blue. We don't simply believe that we have two feet, rather we see two feet on most people and likely ourselves. We don't simply believe that dogs can't talk, we just never experience this in reality, so we have no experiential reason to believe they can (a single experience with a talking dog might cause an evaluation of either our supposition or our sanity). This requires that we parse the definition of belief, which is something you haven't really done, as far as I can tell. It seems you're treating all categories of belief as the same, so that there's no apparent difference between, for instance, believing in a specific religious tradition and believing that humans have five fingers on each hand. If your argument boils down to this scenario, that we can't positively change our beliefs about perceptual facts as we experience them, then there is no real disagreement. But there is more to "belief" than just those experiences. Other belief scenarios have factors that do not necessarily follow from direct perceptual experience.
"You likely also have strong beliefs about more abstract propositions, like perhaps “lowering taxes generally spurs economic growth” or “Earth’s climate is warming due to human activity” or “Darwinian evolution fully accounts for biological complexity”. You might change your mind about these things based on things you hear, or read, or even by sitting alone and ruminating about evidence on one side or another. But you can’t simply make up your mind to believe the opposite of what you currently believe and then actually change your belief that way."
Addressing the last emphasized sentence above, we don't change our beliefs by an act of will in the same way we lift a glass to sip wine by an act of our will, no. This does not mean that belief modification does not result from acts of will. Addressing the first emphasized sentence above, that process requires that we a) open up such beliefs to our own scrutiny; b) actively take in information that we can use as a basis of reevaluation. Both of those are acts of will that serve to unprotect those specific beliefs and allow ourselves to evaluate new evidence.
You can simply decide to pour a glass of water, or to yell “football!”, but you cannot simply decide to believe that dogs can talk. Nor can you change your desires – you experience your desires, but you don’t pick them.
Here you presume that because a desire can't be instantly changed or dispatched with, that they are not subject to the will. Sure, we experience desires, but we can also exercise control over them, choosing not to act on them, even to the point of changing them over time. It does not follow that just because one might need to engage in a non-instantaneous method to modify one's desires, that the modification of desires do not come under the influence of our will. As a matter of fact, people do this all the time. Desires are another attribute of human experience that is subject to the influence of the will.
Analogously, I cannot flap my arms and fly. This does not mean that I don’t possess free will. It means that my being exists within certain physical confines. If I want to fly I can build an airplane. So my choices are constrained, but such constraints do not imply that I cannot freely choose.
We agree on this.
The analogy to free will, and this specific example, was intended to parallel the constraints on belief modification. If we desire to fly, we might need to take an extended route, such as first building an airplane. There are no violations of free will just because we can't instantly choose to fly. We are free to take the necessary, longer road to accomplish the task. In the same way, we may not be able to instantly choose to have another belief, contrary to one we might already possess, but we can certainly choose to embark upon a longer road, a process by which we allow certain beliefs to be impacted by a close examination of the evidence. This doesn't violate free will either, or suggest that belief modification is not subject to the will. This is an important point. If we do not allow a cherished belief to be challenged, it will likely never be changed. This is an act of will. However if we are open to hearing evidence, we can expose a cherished belief to the consideration of additional evidence. This too is an act of will.
...If that were not the case, and I lacked any knowledge of the Earth’s nature outside of my direct experience with a flat patch of ground, I would be free to believe otherwise. As a matter of fact, I could believe any number of things about the nature of the planet had I not seen pictures of it from space.
Really? You could just make something up that you didn’t know was true, and decide to believe it, and then you would actually believe it was true? That doesn’t seem reasonable to me. Or perhaps you mean you might, based on faulty or incomplete information, arrive at a false belief. Well sure, we do that all the time. But still, if you arrived at a belief for whatever reason, you would not be able to believe its contradiction simply because you decide to. It really seems to me that it’s just not possible – it’s not the way our minds work.
I wasn't suggesting we could make up any old thing about the nature of the earth. I was suggesting that the logical possibilities which would fit the available evidence would be multiplied if the available evidence was limited. For example, my direct experience would be with the sun and moon orbiting the earth. Given a paucity of evidence, such an inference would be warranted. It might be reasonable to suppose that my flat patch of earth extended indefinitely in all directions, given I'd never encountered an end to it. With no knowledge of the nature of the heavens, I might suppose that the lights were suspended above, like a mobile spinning above a baby's crib. Without specific evidences in my background knowledge, multiple alternate scenarios might fit the observations. Less evidence implies less constraint of reasonable possibilities. Of course this assumes that I have a personal commitment to rationality, and using logic and reason to arrive at the best conception of the truth about the nature of reality.
"One is compelled by the evidence (and one’s predispositions, experiences, and so on) one way or another, and one comes to believe one thing or another, and that is not under volitional control. I can’t change what I believe just by deciding to change my standards of evidence. I may certainly argue that way, demanding more evidence for things I do not believe (it’s pretty normal for people to do that). But that still doesn’t mean I can start to believe something I don’t believe simply by deciding I don’t need much evidence to believe it."
One is compelled by the evidence, given one allows evidence to inform certain beliefs. This too is a choice. If we change our standards of evidence, then we don't necessarily instantly go through massive belief modification. But changing our standards of evidence is a direct act of will, and will subject our beliefs to reevaluation. In every circumstance, our free will is involved. You appear to have invoked a technicality, that we cannot will our beliefs to change instantaneously, like we will our bodies to move, therefore we are not free to change our beliefs; nor can we choose to believe something that is contrary to direct perceptual experiences. I don't think that's a compelling argument against the predominance of will over belief, if we're selective about what we mean by belief.
"Well, the idea of “direct experience” is pretty dicey – all of our observations are mediated by our mental faculties… but let’s not go there. Let’s say we agree that we can’t choose our beliefs that are obvious from our repeated and uniform experience, yes?"
To the first part of that paragraph, if our perceptions and our mental faculties are dicey, then we have no reason to trust them about much of anything. But such an evaluation also relies on dicey perceptual and mental faculties, so we have no reason to trust that conclusion. This is an epistemological dead end. I prefer to allow that our perceptions as filtered mentally do not provide, at any instant of time, a complete picture of reality, but are generally reliable if subjected to reason's rules and logical thought. This provides a more sound basis for arguing and reasoning about anything at all. As to the last part of that paragraph, we are far less free to alter beliefs that are informed by direct perceptual experience, such as the color of the sky, or the existence of water, or the number of our fingers and toes. Other beliefs might be less constrained. Just as free will has significant constraints with regard to the laws of physics, beliefs have significant constraints with regard to direct perceptual experience. It does not follow that the entire category of beliefs are not subject to the influence of our will just because we can't change all beliefs, or change any belief instantaneously. Anyway, it appears unlikely we'll reach any additional agreement, but it's been an engaging dialog. Thanks much. Best, ChanceChance Ratcliff
April 30, 2013
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Hi Phinehas,
RDF: My point is that our beliefs are not under our voluntary control the way our voluntary actions are. I can choose to sit on the couch, but I cannot choose to believe in unicorns, and there is nothing I can do about that. PHINEHAS: OK, but you can’t choose to sit on water. You can’t choose to sit on love. Pointing out examples of things you can’t choose to do does not mean there are not examples of things you can choose to do. It simply means there are limitations to the things you can choose to do. Similarly, describing limitations in what you can choose to believe does not mean it is impossible to choose to believe some things.
I agree with everything you have said. However, it still seems to me that we are incapable of choosing any of our beliefs merely by an act of will. There is no logical necessity that this be true or false; it is something I believe is empirically true, and easily confirmed by introspection.
First of all, defining rationality as you have, strictly in terms of personally held beliefs and desires seems problematic to me.
I agree with you, there is plenty of room for argument about what constitutes rationality.
Is the schizophrenic who truly believes imaginary people are out to get him being rational? I think there is an underlying (irrational?) assumption in your definition that objective truth does not exist. For if objective truth exists, then rationality is better understood as acting in accordance with what is true and not in what is (especially falsely) believed. It is only from this perspective that we can label the schizophrenic irrational, and it is only from this perspective that we can have a meaningful debate about choice and beliefs and desires.
All true, yes. I wouldn't like to descend too far into epistemology (it seems no one ever returns!), but I don't think I'm assuming that objective truths do not exist here. Rather, I'm really focussin on the observation that we simply can't choose what to believe and desire, and then saying (as I have repeatedly) that to the extent our choices are entailed by our beliefs and desires, they are not free.
RDF: If we change our behavior, it may (or may not) eventually end up changing some of our beliefs. But that is very different from changing one’s beliefs simply by an act of will. PHINEHAS: Very different? I’m not sure I see how this is so. It seems to me that the difference consists primarily in that the change is more indirect, but why should that be so important?
It is a completely different kettle of fish. Let's say I wish to believe that my body is inhabited by the soul of a creature from the planet Theta. First, I attempt to simply choose to believe this by power of will, and find that no matter how I try, I still do not actually believe that this is true. Then I decide I will immerse myself in meetings with other people who do believe this, and perhaps that will eventually make me change my belief. One thing to note is that the choice to do this is based on some desire and belief that I did not choose. But beyond that, note that I cannot myself predict if this method will be successful or not! I might subject myself to these meetings for years, and still find that my belief has not changed! This is not at all what we mean when we talk about doing things volitionally. Cheers, RDFishRDFish
April 30, 2013
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Hi William,
JDH: I don’t think I can will myself to believe that yesterday I saw the sun rise in the west. Maybe some people can do that, I can’t. RDF: Honestly I would think if somebody could do this, it would indicate a serious mental disorder. WJM: How would there ability to do it be fundamentally different from your inability, seeing as what we believe, or do not believe, is caused?
I'm sure it's me but I have a hard time understanding your points. My point was that someone who could believe that yesterday they saw the sun rise in the west would be suffering from delusions.
In any event, by your standards, I guess I have a serious mental disorder.
I'm sorry if I offended you; I certainly wasn't talking about anyone here when I said that. It was a hypothetical example that JDH had brought up. Cheers, RDFishRDFish
April 30, 2013
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Hi StephenB,
We can, in fact, change what we believe and what we desire through the power of will (or grace).
I don't know about that, but my point was different: I was talking about free will, and how we can't actually choose our beliefs and desires. I've said many times now that our beliefs and desires change all the time, and are obviously affected by other choices we've made. But nobody can simply choose, using their will, to believe something they do not believe, nor desire something they do not desire, or vice-versa. By the way I've read "Man's Search For Meaning", and found it tremendously insightful, but nothing he says has anything to do with the issues being discussed here. I am pointing out something that all of us can ascertain for themselves simply by introspection. Simply try it and see: Think of some deeply-held belief that you have, and then choose not to believe it any more, and then reflect on your belief and see if it has changed. You'll find it hasn't. Then repeat the experiment with some strong desire of yours; again, you'll find you are unable to change what you desire by act of will. Cheers, RDFishRDFish
April 30, 2013
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Hi vjtorley,
The question you want to ask, of course, is: “Why did you choose X rather than Y?” And I don’t think there needs to be an answer to that question. You are assuming the truth of a psychological version of Leibniz’s Principle of Sufficient Reason: that given the same set of causes, the same effect invariably follows. We already have good reason to believe that this doesn’t hold true in the physical world; why assume that it holds true for our mental states, then?
Actually no, I am not assuming there is sufficient reason for our behaviors. Rather, my point is that to the extent our actions are rational (by which I mean proceed by reason from our beliefs and desires) then they are compelled by factors we do not freely choose.
If I choose end X instead of competing end Y, then of course, my choice has a reason: X, which is desirable in and of itself. What you are implicitly assuming is that a choice is rational if and only if I can give an account not only of why I chose as I did, but also of why my choice was better than all the other alternatives.
Again, no, I really was just talking about rational choices needing to be reasoned from beliefs and desires. And I've said many times that I'm well aware that humans are not uniformally (or even usually) rational.
Must I always have a reason for narrowing my choices and picking just one among billions of possibilities, when I have to make some choice?
No of course not - but if you make a choice, and you don't know why you've made the choice, then your choice might as well have been random (or determined by inaccessible neural processes).
I can certainly think of religions that I could never believe in, with all the will in the world. But I can think of others whose truth I could persuade myself of, if I wished to be persuaded. Look, it happens all the time. How often do you read of a man or woman converting to their spouse’s religion? Would they have done so if they hadn’t met their spouse? No. But meeting that person may make them willing to consider the claims of that religion.
Once again, I think this is not at all the sort of choice we're talking about here. The choice here was to convert, not to believe the fact claims of a new religion. As we've already agreed, once one is exposed to new ideas (or indoctrinated), ones beliefs might well change. But they do not change by act of will - they change by virtue of one's exposure and indoctrination. And I'm sorry but I have a hard time believing that you could persuade yourself of some point religious dogma that you do not currently believe simply by choice. If you could, can you give an example?
RDF: We reflect, analyze, talk to other people, and figure out what it is we believe. We do not choose what it is we believe. VJT: I don’t think this analysis does justice to the “spouse case” I discussed above. It may well be the case that one partner already has their beliefs “figured out”, and then suddenly encounters the shock of an alternative worldview, which is espoused by their husband or wife. The person may well have previously considered and rejected that particular religion. What then happens is a kind of re-evaluation of the credibility of its claims. The fact that the claims are endorsed by someone whose judgment you think highly of (i.e. your spouse) may cause you to question your former grounds for rejecting that worldview. You may eventually reach a stage where the claims of this competing worldview may not sound rationally compelling, or even superior to rival claims, but nevertheless sound credible and intellectually defensible.
I agree with all of this, yes - it is just as I've been describing regarding how our beliefs are influenced by our experiences, our reflection, our analysis, and so on!
At that point, you may make a conscious choice to accept them. That’s certainly a psychological possibility. Is such a choice epistemologically vicious? I don’t think so. In the end, we all have to believe in some worldview, and arguments for belief are seldom knockdown. So in nearly decision to accept a worldview, there is an element of commitment.
It is here we disagree. The spouse in this situation does make a conscious choice to believe something that we he does not not already believe. Rather, he becomes convinced that something is true that he previously hadn't thought was true. That happens all the time. You (and others here) are trying to dream up situations where it seems plausible that one consciously chooses what it is they believe. Some have suggested that beliefs which are not strongly held might be picked this way - my response is that if the belief is so weak that one can choose to commit to it or not by mere choice - a flip of a mental coin as it were - then it isn't much of a belief in the first place. You suggest that if one is exposed to - or indoctrinated in - new ideas, there may come a point where you "make a conscious choice to accept them". My response is that the conscious choice is not freely made at all - it is the result of new exposure and indoctrination to something that you find inherently reasonable to believe in. If instead you tried to believe something you found preposterous, then try as you might (and you might try very hard if your true love needed you to convert!) - your free will would be powerless to enable you to believe it. Once again, just try it: Imagine your spouse needed you to believe that creatures arrived from the planet Theta 10,000 years ago on a spaceship that looks like a DC-3 and now their souls inhabit your body. Could you choose to believe this, no matter how hard you tried? I hope this helps you understand that to the extent we base our choices on reasons in accord with our beliefs and desires (what I have called "rational choices"), our choices are not free. Cheers, RDFishRDFish
April 30, 2013
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This is such a fascinating topic to me, and one I rarely hear the NDE crowd willing to engage in. The problem as I see it is that materialism essentially reduces all thoughts/emotions/impulses/choices to matter and chemical reactions. The very fact I can have thoughts or type this sentence is simply the result of chemicals firing in my brain. And what I find odd is how many people on the one hand are willing to embrace materialism, but then on the other distance themselves as far as possible from the logical conlusions that a materialist worldview leads one to. And that's essentially what Coyne is doing (although watching him try to get his way out of it isn't nearly as amusing as watching Dawkins try to perform the same trick). But the problem is that if consciousness is merely reduced to matter, then concepts such as free will and morality cease to exist. Matter can't make decisions. Matter can't be "right" or "wrong". There is no such thing as an inherently "evil" chemical reaction. Matter is simply what it is. There is no such thing as an "evil" rock or a "wise" rock. There is simply a rock that is bound to it's intrinsic properties. Yet materialists are essentially arguing that the only differece between you and a rock is the arrangement of the atoms. But simply rearranging something doesn't suddenly confer upon it the ability to have free will or morality. What people like Coyne don't understand is that when they preach reductionism as forcefully as they do, they've pulled the rug out from under themselves when it comes to having any conversation about choices and morality. In Coyne's eyes, for example, i'm unbelievably stupid (if not immoral) for advocating intelligent design. But his own reductionist position makes these words meaningless and impotent. How can I be stupid or immoral if that's simply the reality of me as matter? If my chemical reactions result in matter that advocates intelligent design, what choice do I have? But then if he does argue I have control over it and do have a choice, he's invoking something outside of matter, which his position doesn't allow. If people like Coyne, Dawkins, Harris, etc. want to be consistent, they should just accept that some matter (ID proponents) has different properties than other matter (neo Darwinists). Saying one is better or smarter than the other makes no sense according to their own reductionist position. So the very fact they are willing to engage in a debate is a violation of their own position.cheshire
April 30, 2013
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RDFish:
My point is that our beliefs are not under our voluntary control the way our voluntary actions are. I can choose to sit on the couch, but I cannot choose to believe in unicorns, and there is nothing I can do about that.
OK, but you can't choose to sit on water. You can't choose to sit on love. Pointing out examples of things you can't choose to do does not mean there are not examples of things you can choose to do. It simply means there are limitations to the things you can choose to do. Similarly, describing limitations in what you can choose to believe does not mean it is impossible to choose to believe some things.
And that means that if you are to act rationally – meaning if you act in accord with your beliefs and desires – then you will act in accordance with beliefs and desires that you did not choose.
First of all, defining rationality as you have, strictly in terms of personally held beliefs and desires seems problematic to me. Is the schizophrenic who truly believes imaginary people are out to get him being rational? I think there is an underlying (irrational?) assumption in your definition that objective truth does not exist. For if objective truth exists, then rationality is better understood as acting in accordance with what is true and not in what is (especially falsely) believed. It is only from this perspective that we can label the schizophrenic irrational, and it is only from this perspective that we can have a meaningful debate about choice and beliefs and desires. Secondly, there seems to be a bit of confusion about choosing beliefs and desires.
If we change our behavior, it may (or may not) eventually end up changing some of our beliefs. But that is very different from changing one’s beliefs simply by an act of will.
Very different? I'm not sure I see how this is so. It seems to me that the difference consists primarily in that the change is more indirect, but why should that be so important? Suppose I believe this is a bad day. I'm feeling a bit gloomy. The creative juices are not flowing at work, and I just want it to be the weekend already. Studies have show that if I choose to smile, I will actually end up feeling happier. This is just one of a number of choice that I can make that will result in a change in my perspective or outlook on the day. I can remind myself that I have a great job that I really enjoy. I can recall how much I like the people I get to work with. Suddenly, I start to believe that it isn't such a bad day after all. By an act of will, I've changed my actions. By an act of will, I've changed my focus. By an act of will, I've changed my perspective. And I've done all of these things with the express purpose and intent to change what I believe about what kind of day I'm having. So in what way have I not also changed my belief by an act of will? It may not have been direct, but because I have the ability to imagine believing differently, and because I have the ability to predict the actions that are likely to lead to a different belief, I have intentionally and willfully set out to change my belief and have succeeded. In my experience, desires are similarly malleable and perhaps even more so. Further, defining rationality in terms of personal desires seems to stretch how most people think about rationality.Phinehas
April 30, 2013
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Honestly I would think if somebody could do this, it would indicate a serious mental disorder.
How would there ability to do it be fundamentally different from your inability, seeing as what we believe, or do not believe, is caused? If you are caused to believe X right now, and caused not to believe Y right now, then why would it be any different if I was caused to wake up and believe that I saw the sun rise in the west yesterday? In any event, by your standards, I guess I have a serious mental disorder. My "beliefs" do not tell me what I am, or what the world is, or what has occurred; I tell my beliefs what they are, as I see fit. Including what happened in the past.William J Murray
April 30, 2013
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RDFish:
I wasn’t asking a question so much as making a point, which was that we cannot will ourselves to believe what we do not believe, nor to desire what we do not desire. We can only will ourselves to act how we choose to act. So, to the extent we base our actions upon our beliefs and desires, our choices are not under our volitional control.
On the contrary. We can, in fact, change what we believe and what we desire through the power of will (or grace). If you read Augustine's Confessions, you will find this to be the case. Or, if as it appears, you are more secular minded, read "Man's Search For Meaning," by Victor Frankl. Indeed, we have known for years that behavioral change can transform beliefs and desires. Meaning no disrespect, but you are simply wrong.StephenB
April 30, 2013
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Excellent article Dr. Torley. While I'm not the least bit surprised with Coyne's inconsistencies, it just never ceases to amaze me how deep the cognitive dissonance runs! It reminds of an old story about a Professor teaching ethics who had a student make claims similar to Coyne's about morality and lack of free will. So the Prof decided to visit the student in his dorm room to discuss it further. Upon leaving, the Prof commented on the nice portable stereo the student had and then proceeded to unplug and take it. The student protested. "Why?" the professor asked, "is there a problem?" "Yes", said the student, "you can't just take my stuff without asking." "After everything you just told me about your view of morality and ethics, I don't see why not!" replied the Prof, and proceeded to walk out the door with the stereo. I don't recall from whence this story originated, but I do know that it did happen, or something close to it. The student got a real lesson that day! For all their Herculean efforts, Darwinists like Coyne or Dawkins can not explain morals in evolutionary terms beyond a personal preference. That alone should make them question their logic and reasoning, but, alas, it doesn't!DonaldM
April 30, 2013
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kf, I recall Stephen Meyer using that 'turtles all the way down' illustration in this lecture: Return of the God Hypothesis - Stephen Meyer - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kX1RHYa4LtY&feature=player_detailpage#t=888sbornagain77
April 30, 2013
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BA: This note on worldviews from the ground up in a world of "turtles all the way dooooown! (or, in a circle . . . )" may help too. KFkairosfocus
April 30, 2013
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As to 'freely' finding the one true worldview among many competing worldviews, I would like to, of course, suggest:
Why Any Serious Religious Quest Should Begin with Christianity - Sean McDowell - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dl_LLjR_5FU The Oldest Known Fragment Of The New Testament (What Is Truth?) - Serendipitous Gospel - video http://www.metacafe.com/w/6517637 'Other than Christ, no other religious leader was foretold a thousand years before he arrived, nor was anything said about where he would be born, why he would come, how he would live, and when he would die. No other religious leader claimed to be God, or performed miracles, or rose from the dead. No other religious leader grounded his doctrine in historical facts. No other religious leader declared his person to be even more important than his teachings.' - StephenB - UD Blogger "I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: 'I'm ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don't accept His claim to be God.' That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic -- on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg -- or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to." – C.S. Lewis - Mere Christianity, pages 40-41 Centrality of Each Individual Observer In The Universe and Christ’s Very Credible Reconciliation Of General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics https://docs.google.com/document/d/17SDgYPHPcrl1XX39EXhaQzk7M0zmANKdYIetpZ-WB5Y/edit?hl=en_US
Supplemental note:
The Trial of Jesus Christ - Drive Thru History, Holy Land Ep.12 - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EuoeMrJa9-o
bornagain77
April 30, 2013
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Hi RDFish, Thank you for your comments. You wrote:
If we seek to explain why we choose one course of action instead of some other, we might answer in various ways: 1) We could say we choose for no reason at all (i.e. we made an irrational choice) 2) We could say that we choose according to our strongest desire (this is what it seems like to me) 3) We could say that we choose using our libertarian free will (this is what I think you are saying) But how is #3 any sort of answer at all? It’s fine that you claim to have this volitional power that transcends physical cause… but did you make your decision for some reason or not? If not, then your decision was irrational. If so, what reason could it have been if it was not entailed by your beliefs and desires?
I think this comment of yours encapsulates the heart of our philosophical disagreement. If you ask why I chose X when I could have chosen Y, then there are two possibilities. If X was chosen as a means to an end (Z), then the most likely answer is simply that I think X is a better way of achieving that end. (It may not be, of course: sometimes there are two equally long paths to the same goal, but this is relatively rare in real life.) But where X and Y are competing ends, as in the case of young Leonardo's multiple career options, then I would simply say that I chose X simply because it was desirable in its own right. (Of course you could say that about Y too.) The question you want to ask, of course, is: "Why did you choose X rather than Y?" And I don't think there needs to be an answer to that question. You are assuming the truth of a psychological version of Leibniz's Principle of Sufficient Reason: that given the same set of causes, the same effect invariably follows. We already have good reason to believe that this doesn't hold true in the physical world; why assume that it holds true for our mental states, then? You would argue, however, that an undetermined choice is an irrational one:
...[D]id you make your decision for some reason or not? If not, then your decision was irrational. If so, what reason could it have been if it was not entailed by your beliefs and desires?
If I choose end X instead of competing end Y, then of course, my choice has a reason: X, which is desirable in and of itself. What you are implicitly assuming is that a choice is rational if and only if I can give an account not only of why I chose as I did, but also of why my choice was better than all the other alternatives. And that, I think, is unreasonable. What if there are too many alternatives to consider, for instance? Must I always have a reason for narrowing my choices and picking just one among billions of possibilities, when I have to make some choice? You also write:
I could not possibly believe in a religion that I didn’t believe in. I don't want to insult anybody's religion, but surely you can think of one that you find quite unbelievable. I ask you: Can you, by sheer power of will, start believing the fact claims of that religion?
I can certainly think of religions that I could never believe in, with all the will in the world. But I can think of others whose truth I could persuade myself of, if I wished to be persuaded. Look, it happens all the time. How often do you read of a man or woman converting to their spouse's religion? Would they have done so if they hadn't met their spouse? No. But meeting that person may make them willing to consider the claims of that religion. You also write:
We reflect, analyze, talk to other people, and figure out what it is we believe. We do not choose what it is we believe.
I don't think this analysis does justice to the "spouse case" I discussed above. It may well be the case that one partner already has their beliefs "figured out", and then suddenly encounters the shock of an alternative worldview, which is espoused by their husband or wife. The person may well have previously considered and rejected that particular religion. What then happens is a kind of re-evaluation of the credibility of its claims. The fact that the claims are endorsed by someone whose judgment you think highly of (i.e. your spouse) may cause you to question your former grounds for rejecting that worldview. You may eventually reach a stage where the claims of this competing worldview may not sound rationally compelling, or even superior to rival claims, but nevertheless sound credible and intellectually defensible. At that point, you may make a conscious choice to accept them. That's certainly a psychological possibility. Is such a choice epistemologically vicious? I don't think so. In the end, we all have to believe in some worldview, and arguments for belief are seldom knockdown. So in nearly decision to accept a worldview, there is an element of commitment. Finally, you question whether therapy could change absolutely everything about you. And I would agree that it can't: in most cases, therapy changes to change people's sexuality, although from what I've read, in about 20-35% of cases it can. Other changes are also possible: an overeater may submit to therapy in order to develop an aversion to eating to excess, and that often works. Here's an example, then, of changing your desires in the long term. Hope that helps.vjtorley
April 30, 2013
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Hi JDH,
I think you are looking too inward and being too broad with the term belief. There are a myriad of things which influence our beliefs. So I would like to separate out a few classes of types of beliefs. 1. Memory of past experiences. It seems in this case you are right, I don’t think I can will myself to believe that yesterday I saw the sun rise in the west. Maybe some people can do that, I can’t.
Honestly I would think if somebody could do this, it would indicate a serious mental disorder.
2. Trust in the correct analysis of an argument. I can do this easily. I can will myself to believe yes the argument is logical or no the argument is wrong. Its just that I am not that good at analysis. I can convince myself that one argument has holes and the other side has no consequential problems. But its mostly just ineptitude on my part. My belief actually ends up being quite malleable.
It seems to me that your malleable beliefs are swayed one way or the other, but not by acts of will. Can you really look at an argument and decide "I think I'll consider this argument to be invalid", and then actually believe that it is invalid because of your decision?
3. Trust in another person. I can do this to myself all the time also. I evaluate whether I should believe what the other person says mostly based on the trustworthiness of the individual and then choose to believe or not to believe.
I can choose to trust someone in the sense that I would loan them money, let them borrow my car, whatever, and hope that my trust wasn't misplaced. But trust is not belief: I would believe in some estimate of the likelihood that the person will act well based on my knowledge of him, and I could not change that belief by act of will.
I can understand how your argument applies in case #1. I don’t think people can will themselves to disbelieve what they have personally experienced. But most of what we label “beliefs” are based not on personal experience but by communication of an argument from another person. Here I think there is a lot of allowance for the will. I have met very few people who can cut through the real logic of an argument, or correctly assess the believability of a witness.
OK, so let's say most people come to their (more abstract or complex) beliefs by faulty reason and insufficient justification. That really dooesn't have anything to do with the fact that they form beliefs as they (perhaps incorrectly) review and reflect on the evidence, and not simply by choosing to believe one thing or another. What I think I'm hearing from you and some others here seems to be the idea that some beliefs are so loosely held that it's pretty much a toss-up which way you might believe, so you can decide to believe either one just by choice. But all that means is that your choice is not based on any good reason - i.e. it is irrational. It's like you're just flipping a coin in your head. What I'm talking about are strongly held beliefs, where you really do know what you believe.
And I think it is verifiable, that if I really want to believe something, I can easily will myself to just not listen to reason. ( Actually, I think a lot of people do this. How else can one possibly account for people who actually believe materialism. )
I completely agree, and know that research shows that just about everybody does this. Still, this is not at all the same as choosing to believe something you don't believe, or vice-versa.
So a lot of what we call beliefs are easily changed by the power of the will.
I'm still going to disagree. Can you give an example of some proposition that you can choose to believe (or not), and upon making that choice, actually either believe it is true (or false)? Cheers, RDFishRDFish
April 30, 2013
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Hi RDFish, I think you are looking too inward and being too broad with the term belief. There are a myriad of things which influence our beliefs. So I would like to separate out a few classes of types of beliefs. 1. Memory of past experiences. It seems in this case you are right, I don't think I can will myself to believe that yesterday I saw the sun rise in the west. Maybe some people can do that, I can't. 2. Trust in the correct analysis of an argument. I can do this easily. I can will myself to believe yes the argument is logical or no the argument is wrong. Its just that I am not that good at analysis. I can convince myself that one argument has holes and the other side has no consequential problems. But its mostly just ineptitude on my part. My belief actually ends up being quite malleable. 3. Trust in another person. I can do this to myself all the time also. I evaluate whether I should believe what the other person says mostly based on the trustworthiness of the individual and then choose to believe or not to believe. I can understand how your argument applies in case #1. I don't think people can will themselves to disbelieve what they have personally experienced. But most of what we label "beliefs" are based not on personal experience but by communication of an argument from another person. Here I think there is a lot of allowance for the will. I have met very few people who can cut through the real logic of an argument, or correctly assess the believability of a witness. And I think it is verifiable, that if I really want to believe something, I can easily will myself to just not listen to reason. ( Actually, I think a lot of people do this. How else can one possibly account for people who actually believe materialism. ) So a lot of what we call beliefs are easily changed by the power of the will. *************** OT question to vjtorley. Can animals believe? I do not think they can because I don't think they can posit something which "might" be true. I don't think they can propose a hypothetical. If they could, it seems, they would eventually design things. I know an unknown noise or scent can bring about a heightened state of watchfulness - but that just seems to be stimulus-response and fight or flight. It does not seem to be postulating what the noise or smell actually is. The reason I ask is that makes belief a universal human only trait. No creature below man can believe, and every single man can believe. Therefore it is by faith...JDH
April 30, 2013
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