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Can Ian Musgrave Really Read?

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Over at Panda’s Thumb Ian Musgrave opens his article Random Nonsense with

Over at Uncommon Descent William Dembski is linking to the random mutation site with approval.

Hello Ian? Is anyone home?

That article was written by Gil Dodgen not William Dembski. Your attention to detail is underwhelming and not at all surprising. It’s characteristic of the quality of everything you boys write.


Moving along to Ian’s next older article trying to bash Ann Coulter he labors on and on and on and on about peppered moths and how Ann didn’t get some of the details right.

Hey Ian. You know, we get it that cosmetic changes happen due to selection. If we artificially breed snowshoe hares so they don’t turn white in the winter (remain brown all year round) and introduce the new strain into the far northern range no IDist will be surprised if they are caught and killed in larger number than the white hares. Variation for natural selection to act upon has observed limits. These limits are in cosmetics and scale and best delineated in the range that 20,000 years of artificial selection for any and all unusual characters in dogs has produced. We have huge variation in fur color and length but not a single feather or scale. It’s all still mammal hair. We have huge variation in scale, body length to leg length, adult weight, etcetera. But not a single retractable claw or non-round pupil or any non-canine feature.

So Ian goes on and on talking about pigment changes in moth wings while blithely ignoring Ann’s devastating comment saying “They’re all still moths”. Well Ian, they ARE still moths and shrugging this off by saying it’s an old creationist argument hardly falsifies it. Extrapolating the mechanism that drives pigment changes in moth wings into the mechanism that drives the change from bacteria into moths (of any wing color) is what we want to hear you defend. Coulter’s “They’re all still moths” is a point blank fatal shot into the crufty hoaxy heart of the modern synthesis. Get a clue, Ian.

Comments

It seems Musgrave failed to follow few recent threads on this blog that we argued Natural Selection and its lack of power to drive the engine of evolution. No one is denying that NS is a part of NDE. We don't need to exclude NS in order to win the game. We repeatedly addressed the issue of this myth called Natural Selection which is believed to have the creative power to turn bacteria into Charlize Theron.

Mugrave gives more examples for newer versions of Weasel program based on same faulty logic. It's amazing to see how these programs flunk when a bit of IC is added to the simulation: http://www-acs.ucsd.edu/~idea/lenskiresponse.htm

When two or more successive steps are not selectable the simulation fails to converge.

Sharon Stone is getting on in years but did you know she has an IQ of 154? Wow. Brains AND beauty. -ds Farshad
June 21, 2006
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Mung, the question why a random beneficial feature would propagate is easy: if it leaves more offspring it will increase in frequency. Is that so hard to understand? What actually happened is a much more difficult question. If mutations are random, it's very difficult (but not entirely impossible) to predict what will actually happen. Compare it to predicting the weather. Small, short-term changes are easy to predict, long-term big changes are not. Chaos theory.Raevmo
June 19, 2006
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No one would expect that all beneficial features appear at random and propogate throughout a population without selection.
The question is why anyone would expect that any beneficial feature appearing at random would propogate throughout a population. Then, there is the question of what acutally happened, not what is theoretically possible. Where are all the explanations of what actually happened?Mung
June 19, 2006
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I don't know that I "linked to the random mutation site with approval." I just linked to it and told folks to have fun using it to write a novel. As I pointed out in that thread, the text mutation generator is just a fun demonstration that offers an intuitive grasp of the impracticality of using random changes to do anything useful or meaningful in an information-encoding system.GilDodgen
June 19, 2006
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If we took the results from that random mutator that acts on words from the last thread as meaningful, wouldn't we have to conclude that RM+NS can't create -anything-, even micro-evolution in moth color or dog size?

No. If the mechanisms are already in place to vary cosmetics and scale then random change and natural selection can quickly adapt an organism, within the established bounds, to the optimum for its immediate environment. What it cannot do, or at least has not been demonstrated as able to do, is generate unique new features that go beyond cosmetics and scale such as novel new cell types, tissue types, organs, and body plans. -ds Tiax
June 19, 2006
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Another example of a Musgrave boo boo Guts
June 19, 2006
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Chris grew up watching "The Simpsons" and obviously saw that three-eyed mutant fish in the intro one too many times when he was an impressionable toddler. :lol:

Mutation mutates. Selection selects. Tautologies are self-referential but in Chris' arithmetic they're not additive. Two tautologies added together are exponentially multiplicative so instead of 1t + 1t = 2t Chris' math is 1t + 1t = 1utoe (universal theory of evolution). :roll: DaveScot
June 19, 2006
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Chris@2 There were a lot of mutations on Chernobyl and Hiroshima's sites, but I doubt anything naturally selectable was created.Mats
June 19, 2006
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Any arguement that is posted against Darwinism is just "Creationist nonsence". Oh, and yes, they are still moths.Mats
June 19, 2006
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"since to me, natural selection is just an obvious uncreative static mechanism." Mutation creates, selection selects. Obviously this is a gross oversimplification of what actually happens, but the selection part is important. No one would expect that all beneficial features appear at random and propogate throughout a population without selection.Chris Hyland
June 19, 2006
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It interests me, in reading the comments that follow this post at PT, that the PT people seem convinced that "selection" is so terribly significant in evolution. There seems to be some muddy water on this one, for everyone concerned. I myself have always felt, just at a gut level, that the aspect of random mutations is the only really controversial aspect of RM+NS, since to me, natural selection is just an obvious uncreative static mechanism. Are they referring to other popular new selection mechanisms, and how significant are these in the overall story?tinabrewer
June 19, 2006
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