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Can Science Ground Morality?

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Of course not, as we have often noted in these pages.

James Davison Hunter’s and Paul Nedelisky’s  Where the New Science of Morality Goes Wrong is a great primer on the subject.  Their take down of Sam Harris is especially good:

The new moral scientists sometimes provide certain examples that they think illustrate that science has demonstrated (or can demonstrate) that certain moral claims are true or false. A favorite is the health or medical analogy. Neuroscientist and author Sam Harris, for example, employs the health analogy to argue that science can demonstrate moral value. A bit more circumspect than some who use the analogy, he recognizes that he’s assuming that certain observable properties are tied to certain moral values. Harris puts it this way:

Science cannot tell us why, scientifically, we should value health. But once we admit that health is the proper concern of medicine, we can then study and promote it through science…. I think our concern for well-being is even less in need for justification than our concern for health is.… And once we begin thinking seriously about human well-being, we will find that science can resolve specific questions about morality and human values.12

Harris makes two assumptions—first, that well-being is a moral good, and, second, that we know what the observable properties of well-being are. Yet he doesn’t see these assumptions as problematic for the scientific status of his argument. After all, he reasons, we make similar assumptions in medicine, but we can all recognize that it is still a science. But he still doesn’t recognize that this thinking is fatal to his claim that science can determine moral values. To make the problem for Harris more vivid, compare his argument above with arguments that share the same logic and structure:

  • Science cannot tell us why, scientifically, we should value the enslavement of Africans. But once we admit that slavery is the proper concern of social science, we can then study and promote it through science. I think our concern for embracing slavery is even less in need for justification than our concern for health is. And once we begin thinking seriously about slavery, we will find that science can resolve specific questions about morality and human values.

  • Science cannot tell us why, scientifically, we should value the purging of Jews, gypsies, and the mentally disabled from society. But once we admit that their eradication is the proper concern of social science, we can then study and promote it through science.

  • Science cannot tell us why, scientifically, we should value a prohibition on gay marriage. But once we admit that such a prohibition is the proper concern of social science, we can then study and promote it through science.

 

Comments
CR, as you know or should, the only serious candidate for grounding morality apart from arbitrary imposition is exactly what ethical theism puts forward. Namely the inherent goodness of the creator, a necessary and maximally great being who is root reality of any possible world. As a consequence, moral government is inextricably intertwined with reality and rational responsible freedom from the root of reality. Accordingly, our reasonable, responsible service will be evident to the eye of reason in its core aspects and in our manifest nature. As a result, we find ourselves under the rule of truth and that of reciprocal loving care towards neighbour who is as self. Notice, not a single appeal to scripture, though this agrees with scripture as the truth written on papyrus answers to that written in our hearts, minds and consciences -- if we will not quench -- by the same author and at core discernible by the same enlightened, conscience-guided reason. Only, being on paper makes it much easier to access, and harder to suppress, wrench, distort and deny. Where, the text is authenticated through the sign of the resurrection of the dead, with 500 unshakable witnesses who were not fazed by dungeon, fire, sword or worse; whose only bond was they knew the truth of the gospel and would not yield truth to lie regardless of threat or demonic persecution, torture and even judicial murder. From such also, we find that rights and responsibilities as well as freedoms find themselves in due balance only through justice. And, one of the worst violations of said responsible freedom is to pretend that we can make it up out of whole cloth and some imagined agreement of those who deem themselves peers. Down that road lies Nietzschean superman master race or class imposition on the despised others. That held for Nazis, it held for Bolsheviks, and it holds for the sneering nomenklatura of today's self perpetuating chattering classes. who, happen to be guilty of the worst holocaust of all, 800+ million innocent unborn in 40+ years and mounting up under preening, false colours of rights and law at a million more victims, per WEEK. Instead, this utterly untoward generation is headed for the crumbling edge of a cliff, besotted and benumbed and blinded by the worst mass blood guilt in history. And, that is just the beginning. KF PS: You have long since been confronted with the following pivotal point made by John Locke in setting the foundation for modern liberty and Democracy in his 2nd treatise on civil gov't, by powerful citation of Hooker:
[2nd Treatise on Civil Gov't, Ch 2 sec. 5:] . . . if I cannot but wish to receive good, even as much at every man's hands, as any man can wish unto his own soul, how should I look to have any part of my desire herein satisfied, unless myself be careful to satisfy the like desire which is undoubtedly in other men . . . my desire, therefore, to be loved of my equals in Nature, as much as possible may be, imposeth upon me a natural duty of bearing to themward fully the like affection. From which relation of equality between ourselves and them that are as ourselves, what several rules and canons natural reason hath drawn for direction of life no man is ignorant . . . [This directly echoes St. Paul in Rom 2: "14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them . . . " and 13: "9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law . . . " Hooker then continues, citing Aristotle in The Nicomachean Ethics, Bk 8:] as namely, That because we would take no harm, we must therefore do none; That since we would not be in any thing extremely dealt with, we must ourselves avoid all extremity in our dealings; That from all violence and wrong we are utterly to abstain, with such-like . . . ] [Eccl. Polity ,preface, Bk I, "ch." 8, p.80, cf. here. Emphasis added.] [Augmented citation, Locke, Second Treatise on Civil Government, Ch 2 Sect. 5. ]
--> I cite this by way of testimony for the responsible and willing, not in any expectation of a reasonable response from you. Sorry, your track record is too long. I can only hope that one day you will wake up and do better.kairosfocus
February 28, 2017
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In both cases, you use human reasoning and criticism.
If there is no Truth, reasoning and criticism are not possible. Without it there is nothing for reason to grasp. Andrewasauber
February 28, 2017
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@Vy I don’t see how you’re disagreeing with me. If morality isn’t something that is grounded in an authoritative source of moral knowledge, then what are you appalling to here? Being grounded in the particular authoritative moral source of Yahweh? Or have you merely defined moral values and duties from Yahweh as objective and everything as subjective. Were is the straw man? Vy quoted:
Morality then is not something handed down to Moses on Mount Sinai. It is something forged in the struggle for existence and reproduction, something fashioned by natural selection. It is as much a natural human adaptation as our ears or noses or teeth or penises or vaginas. It works and it has no meaning over and above this.
Empiricism is the idea that all knowledge comes from the senses. Experience is the authoritative source we can turn to that will not lead us into error. When this was shown to be false, some people claimed there was no scientific knowledge. But, like all knowledge, scientific knowledge doesn’t come from the senses. It comes from human reasoning and criticism. This gives us approximations of an objective truth. Newton’s laws of motion are one such approximation. It’s not merely our option, if it was, then how could we use it to send rovers to mars? In the quote, moral knowledge is handed down to Moses. Yahweh is the authoritative source you can turn to that will not lead you into error. If there is no authoritative source, then there can be no moral knowledge. But this is the same problem as empiricism. We’ve just exchanged the senses with Yahweh. You're clang there can be no moral knowledge. Again, how have you infallibly identified Yahweh as the correct and complete source, as opposed to other texts that also claim to be from God? How do you infallibly interpret what was handed down? In both cases, you use human reasoning and criticism. That’s my point.critical rationalist
February 28, 2017
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Folks, I repeat from 118:
118 kairosfocusFebruary 22, 2017 at 5:44 am Folks, The only thing that can successfully ground morality is a world-root level IS that is also inherently the root of OUGHT. After centuries of debate, there is precisely one serious candidate: the inherently good Creator God, a necessary and maximally great being, worthy of loyalty and the reasonable, responsible service of doing the good in accord with our evident nature. Where, as a serious candidate necessary being such a Supreme Being would either be impossible in the same way a square circle is, or else would be actual, as an inherent part of the framework of all possible worlds. Science as institution, as praxis or as body of findings does not even come close. Also, we should note that our reasoning is inextricably intertwined with responsibility to wards truth and right, so the all too common undermining of moral foundations through ill-advised ideologies is fraught with destructive consequences for our civilisation. Such as, are visible all around.
That remains the case. KFkairosfocus
February 28, 2017
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If I got it wrong, explain it to me.
Er, no. There were two Atheists who were quite capable of understanding the English language just enough to answer my question and offered their responses. Since you can't, good luck. Your text blobs were something worth engaging when I had no idea of your interest in deflection and strawmanning. Not anymore.Vy
February 28, 2017
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Vy, If I got it wrong, explain it to me. After all, If I'm presenting a straw man as you claim, you should have no problem setting me straight with your actual concern. Right?critical rationalist
February 27, 2017
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On one hand, you claim that human reasoning and criticism is not sufficient to “ground morality”.
Still grasping onto those straws tight and trying to deflect. Keep at it.Vy
February 27, 2017
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Vy, On one hand, you claim that human reasoning and criticism is not sufficient to “ground morality”. Yet, when I try to take your claim seriously it seems that, should you actually try to apply it when faced with any concrete moral problem, you still have to depend on human reasoning and criticism to employ it. Your response? It’s mental gymnastics, which really isn’t an argument or explains how you avoid the problem, in practice. So, if adding God to the picture doesn’t really help, when faced with moral problems, then what other purpose does it serve? What are you really concerned about? I honestly don’t know. As pointed out by the transcript, when the epistemological view that all scientific knowledge comes from or is grounded in the senses (empiricism) was shown to be nonsense, some people started claiming all scientific knowledge was nonsense. But science doesn’t come from observations, It comes from rationality and criticism. You seem to be making the same sort of argument. Morality without God is nonsense, because there can be no moral knowledge unless it comes from or is grounded in some supernatural authority by which the final truth is already known. This is like holding morality hostage unless we accept your theological beliefs and their epistemological underpinnings. In fact, I’d suggest that what your doing is actually immoral, because you are attempting to undermine and discount our means to correct errors. So, again, exactly what are you concerned about, if not actually solving moral problems? Or perhaps I am incorrect in assuming you think there really is such a thing as a moral problem and that it would be a subject of genuine concern?critical rationalist
February 27, 2017
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My point is, that given your assumptions there is NO way we can get binding moral obligations, so I can obviously not point out a better way.
FULLSTOP, that is it. There is no form of mental gymnastics even if you're a gold medalist like "critical rationalist", hedging, twisting, turning and repetition even if you're as good as Seversky, Sam Harris, steveh or any other Atheist that is going to get you any sort of morality in an Atheistic evolutionist universe, much less morality for anyone other themselves who declare it to be morality (a case of perpetual morality). I was hoping that my decision to end my commenting hiatus on this blog and engage in yet another discussion with Atheists on how morality can exist in an Atheistic evolutionist universe might be fruitful. But alas, it's just a bunch of Atheists repeating the same old arguments (and a new meaningless one) and tripping over themselves while doing so.Vy
February 27, 2017
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That’s precisely the answer.
So you admit you gave a non-answer. Got it.
You didn’t answer the question. Do you think your opinion counts for nothing?
Do you think your opinion counts more than a rapist's at the moment of rape?
I’m not saying that my view should count for any more than that of others but neither should it count for any less. I believe it should be heard like yours and those of anyone else.
Heard by whom, because of what and for what?
There will always be differing or conflicting views in society while human beings are as they are. We either find a way to reconcile them through “inter-subjective agreement” or whichever group has the power will impose theirs on the rest of us, in which case a lot of people will die. Take your pick.
You can repeat "inter-subjective agreement" a gazillion times but it still remains a useless criterion and is really your attempt at imposing your subjectively "moral" beliefs on others.
Exactly right.
I'm glad you admit to the cognitive dissonance. And a second admission? You're on a roll!Vy
February 27, 2017
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Without some sort of external ruling from God, is that how you see rape? Is the decision to rape analogous to choosing one ice cream flavor over another in your eyes? A mere (dis)like?
Why didn't you bother to read what I was responding to before blurting stuff out? Here is Sev's post, the thing I was responding to:
Would you like to be raped? Would you like a family member to be raped/ Would you like a dear friend to be raped?
Try to ensure you're not guilty of selective blindness next time you want to post.
We don’t just consider whether we like something or not in deciding if something is good or bad – that’s your strawman.
Au contraire, that is your strawman.
We also consider the harm that may be done and the feelings of others.
What is harm and why is it relevant? Why should the feelings of others be considered?
Rape is bad because it can be very harmful.
Non-sequitur.
The victim may suffer pain and be terrified by the ordeal. They may suffer mental and physical harm, be left afraid to leave their homes or to be around men in general even those who were previously considered friends. Their health may suffer as a result. Additionally they may contract any number of diseases from the rapist. All of these things may affect not just them but also the people they love. Their relationships may suffer. They may also become pregnant and become victims a second time when people like you force them to carry the rapist’s offspring to term. And they may die in childbirth at the end of that process.
Mhmmm, so if they're unconscious, left physically unharmed, raped by a non-infected individual, never find out about it and never get pregnant, what happens? You see, when you mention all these horrors about "harmful" stuff as an Atheistic evolutionist, all I can do is laugh at such a fantastic level of cognitive dissonance.
To me that’s more important than a decision about ice cream.
Nope:
Morality then is not something handed down to Moses on Mount Sinai. It is something forged in the struggle for existence and reproduction, something fashioned by natural selection. It is as much a natural human adaptation as our ears or noses or teeth or penises or vaginas. It works and it has no meaning over and above this. If all future food were Pablum, we would probably be better off without teeth. If all future relationships could be done purely on a cost-benefit analysis, then we would probably be better off without morality. Why fall on a grenade to save your fellows when it hardly pays off for you? Morality is just a matter of emotions, like liking ice cream and sex and hating toothache and marking student papers. But it is, and has to be, a funny kind of emotion. It has to pretend that it is not that at all! If we thought that morality was no more than liking or not liking spinach, then pretty quickly it would break down. Before long, we would find ourselves saying something like: "Well, morality is a jolly good thing from a personal point of view. When I am hungry or sick, I can rely on my fellow humans to help me. But really it is all bullshit, so when they need help I can and should avoid putting myself out. There is nothing there for me."
---
And those are better reasons to oppose rape than to ask yourself if it happens to be on a list of things God doesn’t want you to do
And Hitler would claim he had "better reasons" to kill the "sub-humans". All you've done is dump vacuous platitudes.
like wear clothes made from two different types of fabric, eat pork etc. Those things sometimes drop off the list when interpreted “correctly” and presumably when they do they become acceptable to certain people.
Regurgitating refuted Atheist tropes is one way to destroy any sort of credibility you have.
I would not want to be raped, or to suffer any of the possible side-effects because of that or for any other reason. Nor would I want such things to happen to my family or friends.
And there it is again, subjective feeling-based assumptions.
Contrary to anything Christians like you will say for us on our behalves, we atheists do not think that other people should be prevented from harming us while we should be free to do anything we like.
It's funny, Atheists love to say how they're not a hive mind but when it gets down to it, that's all they strive to be. And if you think your vacuous declarations here speak for Atheists, dissuade yourself from believing such an illusion; this honest Atheist would love to rape your wife when you're ready to stop putting up smokescreens.
I am not special. We are not special. I do not believe myself to be saved and others ripe for rightful torment forever in hell. And the universe does not grant me, you, or anyone special rights to be protected or to inflict harm. For this reason, if am to consider it my right not to be hurt by others without good reason then I should grant the same rights to others. It’s not rocket science. I want to live in a society where we are not all in fear of each other and we do that by working out rules that we can all live by.
If only deepities were interesting to me.Vy
February 27, 2017
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Addendum:
If you have a better solution then, by all means, let’s hear it.
My point is, that given your assumptions there is NO way we can get binding moral obligations, so I can obviously not point out a better way. The only thing we can do is to 1) establish that your assumptions lead to this outcome, 2) look for better assumptions, 3) make a good case that those assumptions are sensible, and 4) then we can have a better solution to the question of how to get binding moral obligations. We are still stuck at point 1) here.hgp
February 27, 2017
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Why should anyone have a duty to “your opinion” of...
Still going with confabulated rambles rather than answering the question. Carry on.Vy
February 27, 2017
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This post is longer than anticipated. Serversky @ 144 Thank you for your reply. We are making some progress. Your proposed framework for establishing moral obligations mutated visibly from the time you first mentioned it. At first you proposed that “inter-subjective agreement” alone establishes moral obligations. In your last post you implicitly changed that view and now hold that the agreement is not between individuals but that society as a whole is establishing morals obligations (in a way not specified) for all individuals within that society whether they agree or not. You state that in some cases (pedophiles, psychopaths) society is right in doing so and in other cases (Nazis imposing their views on those defined by them as “Untermenschen”) society is wrong in doing so. As we will see again and again within your proposed framework we must presuppose some source of moral obligations and truths from outside the very framework that should be the only source of said obligations. And we will see that decisions reached by your proposed framework can be (and must be) judged by some source outside said framework if we don’t want to accept obviously horrible outcomes as moral obligations.
In my view, when someone asks about establishing the wrongness of something in a moral sense, if that means judging it against some sort of bedrock principle that is incontrovertibly true regardless of what anyone thinks, then they are asking for something that cannot be done because no such principle exists outside of subjective belief.
I do hear you. I can accept this as a statement of your personal views. But just because you have a view, that doesn’t make your view necessarily true. My outlook is quite different, but at this point we don’t need to discuss this difference. Even if we grant your opinion for the sake of argument, your proposed framework for establishing moral obligations is not working in any meaningful sense as I will try to show. Your proposed framework is not dependent on your personal views (other as a possible input into the decision making process) so while thinking through the consequences of your proposed framework you should refrain from establishing anything based on your views alone, if there is a possibility that society as a whole might come to another view. But as we will see at crucial steps in your proposed framework you inject your own personal feelings as if they were some sort of obvious truth that society always will adopt. That’s not (necessarily) a problem within your framework, but it is a problem with your argument.
If I say that it is wrong to rape and murder a child, I am stating my personal belief. If a pedophile says that such acts are right because they give him pleasure, he is also stating an opinion. How do we decide between them? Put the issue to all the other members of society and see what they think. If, as I believe, the overwhelming majority of people would side with me then you have your answer. … I view morals as functioning to regulate the way people behave towards one another in society. The psychopath who derives pleasure from raping and killing others may disagree with the rest of society who view such behavior with disfavor. That’s his prerogative. But if he wants to continue living freely in that society, he either finds a way to curb his baser instincts or he finds somewhere else to live.
While you don’t state it in so many words, you are trying to say, that this “intersubjective agreement” is not necessarily an agreement of everyone involved but an agreement of “society as a whole”. This decision can then be imposed (by force, seemingly) on individuals that disagree. And while I’m all in favor of imposing those different views on psychopaths and child molesters, there are many cases that are a whole less clear cut. Have you ever thought about the question that “society as a whole” might be wrong (even horribly wrong) in making a decision? I will give you two links to cases that you might want to ponder that didn’t happen in Nazi Germany but within the “western world”: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minersville_School_District_v._Gobitis#Effects_of_the_decision https://www.jw.org/en/news/legal/by-region/south-korea/jehovahs-witnesses-in-prison/ Was the American society right in imposing forced speech upon people with a different opinion? Is the South Korean society right in imposing military service on conscientious objectors? In both cases “society as a whole” had a certain point of view and imposed it on a minority that thinks differently. Even the highest court agreed (at least for some time in one of those cases). Was the society right in imposing these views on individuals? If not, then your framework is not working. You need a moral arbiter that decides, when society is justified in imposing their views on individuals and when not. If this arbiter is society itself, then there is a big problem. If it is anyone else, then where do they get their authority from to decide that the very framework you proposed is coming to a wrong conclusion in any particular case? I hope you can see the problem. If that arbiter is not dependent on the society’s decision, then they must get their authority from somewhere else outside your proposed framework. And if it is dependent on society’s decision then it can’t correct any error on society’s side. So you have a circular problem here that can only be corrected from outside the framework you propose. And if you say that the societies in question were/are right in imposing their mentioned views on individuals and minorities, then I submit that your proposed framework can lead to horribly immoral decisions getting imposed on moral individuals. And since you stated that there don’t exist any moral truths outside your proposed framework you get a contradiction: The very framework that is introduced as the only source of moral obligations leads to immoral obligations. How can that be? And how can we know it without supposing a moral standard that is prior to your framework?
It was never going to happen, but if the Nazis had actually asked the Czechs or Poles if they would like to be invaded and their countries absorbed into a Greater Germany, I think we know what the answer would have been. In fact, I believe that if the question had been put to the German people and they had been free to express their honest opinions, the result would have gone against the Nazis.
Let me rephrase this using the terms of your proposed framework: If the Nazis had used another (moral) definition what constitutes a “moral agent” and if they had used another process to decide moral questions, they would have come to different moral opinions. Yes obviously (Or “d’oh” as Homer Simpson would say). But exactly that is the problem: there is no end of possible processes for society to use for deciding moral questions. And the answer that society gives to any question is not only dependent on their “honest opinions” but to a similar (or sometimes even greater) degree it depends on the process used to convert those individual opinions into a decision of the society as a whole. To take a recent example: Using an electoral college you get Mr. Trump as the American president. Using the majority vote you (probably) would have gotten Mrs. Clinton. Which process is the correct one? If this decision is arbitrary then the outcome is arbitrary. If we take any old process for deciding those questions as “moral” (since it was established by the society in question) then we have to live with the consequence that any decision established by that process count as “moral obligations”. If we don’t accept some processes then we decide (again) a moral question prior to any “intersubjective societal agreement” which again brakes your definition of that process as the only source of moral obligations. The next question that has to be asked: what opinion counts as “honest opinion” and how do we differentiate this “honest opinion” from any immoral attempt to manipulate the process that establishes moral obligations? Anyone would agree that a process for establishing moral obligations shouldn’t be manipulated for selfish gains. So before society can make a decision it has to sort through the input into the decision making process and weed out any attempts at manipulationg the process. Again, if it is society that makes that decision which opinions count and which don’t, then the Nazis were justified in using their own definition and branding anyone disagreeing as “Volksverräter” whose voice didn’t count. And if the decision of society can be wrong, how does can your framework ever hope to differentiate between the two without making arbitrary moral decisions before the process to establish said moral obligations can even start? And if you accept that the decisions, whose opinion is “honest” is arbitrary and must be arbitrary, how can we accept the outcome of such a process as a morally binding obligation, since there is fair chance, that it might have been manipulated for someone’s immoral gain?
Moral problems arise when individuals or groups believe they are entitled to act in ways which cause distress or harm or injury to other individuals or groups without any authority to do so. And the only possible valid authority for such acts can be society as a whole including obviously the potential victims of such acts. Without such authority the acts would be immoral.
Again, I can accept this as your personal view. But your view is a minority view even in western societies. If we take the real life example of abortion, the embryo’s views on abortion are not really heard in the debate. They are (implicitly or explicitly) irrelevant for establishing society’s rules. And there is no questions that aborted embryos are the victims of the decision. So we are back to the question (within your framework) of deciding who is a moral agent. If society can decide this question in this way without taking into account the rights of the aborted embryos, how is that distinct from the Nazis deciding that Jews and Poles and Czechs are not to be heard because they are counted as “Untermenschen”? And if society can’t decide this, then who can? And how? And why not? Within your proposed framework society is the one to decide whose voice is counted and whose not. So just giving your opinion against the opinion of society doesn’t make society wrong within your framework. It makes you the psychopath or criminal (or “Volksverräter”) that can be forced by society to submit to its views. I don’t know where you stand on the abortion question, and this is even not relevant for our question. If society decides and can override your views and mine, then we don’t need them.
Whatever their origin or source, I would say we observe that the function of moral standards is to regulate the way human beings act towards one another in society. So, in the first instance, to be a human being in society with others is to be a moral agent.
And again you take your own personal opinion as a starting point in a framework, where your own personal opinion doesn’t really count again the decision of society as a whole. If society decides that the function of moral standards is something else, then your opinion is worthless within that society (given your framework). When the Nazis decide that the function of moral standards is to establish the superiority of the “Herrenrasse” then “moral agent” should be defined differently. The question, what function moral standard have, is again a moral question that gets to be decided by society as a whole and not by you. And if your opinion is different from the opinion of society as a whole, then within your framework society can force you to comply.
That’s right, they did. But all those classified by the Nazis as “untermenschen” did not or would not have agreed as, in passing, did most of those not directly affected. And if the Nazis had kept their opinions to themselves there wouldn’t have been a problem. But when they began to practice what they believed without the consent of those affected they crossed the line into immorality. The moral thing to do then became resistance to and eventually the destruction of the Nazi regime.
What about societies that practice abortion without consent of the aborted embryos? Is the moral thing resistance and the destruction of those societies? If not, why? And how is that different (within your framework) from what the Nazis did? And again you are giving your personal view in a moral question that would be decided not by you within your framework as if your view would count somehow.
The question then becomes how do you decide between those diametrically opposed views. Or, perhaps more accurately, who gets to decide between those positions? My solution would be to put the question to the rest to the rest of humanity since since they were – or could ultimately have been – affected by the Nazis beliefs. I would ask them all, “How do you feel about all your Jews, gypsies, mentally ill, homosexuals and political dissidents being rounded up, put into concentration camps and gassed?” I’m pretty sure I know what the answer would be and it has nothing to do with me trying to impose my moral perspective on the rest of humanity.
You are giving your personal view again. So what really made the Nazi actions wrong? Was it the decision of the rest of humanity that their actions were wrong? Or was it the fact that the Nazis lost the war? If the Nazis had won the war and their view would have won out again the view of the rest of humanity would that had made their actions moral? And the decision to force the Nazis was that an intersubjective agreement about moral questions or was it a power decision of military leaders that perceived the Nazis as a power threat? If it was a moral decision when and where and how was this stuff decided? And if it was a power question, then how such a decision influence the moral obligations of anyone? And what about those cases where the rest of humanity said: Yes that’s wrong but we can’t be bothered to force you to accept our viewpoints? Srebrenica and Ruanda are two such cases from the recent past. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srebrenica_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rwandan_genocide You see that this question can’t be answered easily within your framework. You are pushing the real question one step further without ever answering it: How can moral obligations be established by intersubjective agreements? What if the whole of humanity gets a moral obligation wrong? Whom can I appeal to? Or can’t the whole of humanity never be wrong? And how does that work out without horrible consequences for us all? If the rest of humanity can impose their views on any individual society what will happen if countries with shariah law become the majority of humanity? What can stop those countries with Shariah law at some point in the future to impose their views on other societies that they deem to be immoral?
The psychopath who derives pleasure from raping and killing others may disagree with the rest of society who view such behavior with disfavor. That’s his prerogative. But if he wants to continue living freely in that society, he either finds a way to curb his baser instincts or he finds somewhere else to live.
You are implicitly using your own moral views here. To demonstrate this I will reword your sentence from the point of view of Nazi society: The psychopath who derives pleasure from viewing Jews, Gypsies etc. as real human being and thusly endangers the “Herrenrasse” may disagree with the rest of society who view such behavior with disfavor. That’s his prerogative. But if he wants to continue living freely in that society, he either finds a way to curb his baser instincts or he finds somewhere else to live. Do you see, what happened? Your framework gives all the power of moral decision making to the society. But you don’t accept the outcome of such decisions whenever it differs (too much) from your own point of view. In effect you are making yourself the final authority in moral questions.
I don’t see moral obligations existing prior to the “inter-subjective agreement” on them.
Then your proposed framework cannot work. There are moral questions that must necessarily be decided before any intersubjective agreement can take place: Who is a moral agent? Which process should be used to reach an intersubjective agreement? Whose opinions during this process are honest and which are manipulative? If there is no moral obligation prior to any intersubjective agreement then the answers to those questions are necessarily arbitrary and amoral. And how can we rely on an amoral and arbitrary process to lead to moral obligations that anyone must comply with? In answer to those questions you either gave your own personal opinion (which doesn’t count here) or you didn’t see the question at all. Another question that your framework can’t give a sensible answer to: When should society force individuals to comply with its moral decisions and when are the moral decisions of society immoral itself? Can the views of humanity as a whole (however established) be wrong? Without giving an answer to those questions that works within your framework, your framework of intersubjective agreement becomes a meaningless shell that can accommodate every moral (and immoral) view imaginable. And the important part is: “that works within your framework”. I submit that it is impossible to answer those questions (sensibly) without having an external source of moral values. You yourself time and again use your own opinion as if it were an obvious moral truth despite the fact, that many people on this planet would disagree with you on those very points and despite the fact that within your own framework those opinions don’t count.
As far as the Nazis were concerned, had I been around at the time, I might have done what little I could to persuade them to accept my view about the immorality of what they planned but I seriously doubt it would have had any effect.
The real question is: Should you have submitted to society’s moral views since they are the only source of moral obligations in your framework and become a helper in the Holocaust? Or should you have rejected the moral views of society (and by implication your own moral framework for establishing those obligations)?hgp
February 27, 2017
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From this transcript of Sam Harris' podcast with guest David Deutsch.
DD: There’s another contradiction, and another irony that’s related, which is that she’s willing to condemn you for not being a moral relativist. But the ironic thing is that moral relativism is a pathology that arises only in our culture. Every other culture has no doubt that there is such a thing as right and wrong; they’ve just got the wrong idea of what right and wrong are. But there is such a thing, they don’t doubt. And she won’t condemn them for that, though she does condemn you for it. SH: Yes. DD: So that’s another irony. You say “hypocrisy.” I think this all originated in the same mistake that we discussed at the very beginning of this conversation—empiricism, or whatever it is, which has led to scientism. Now, you may not like this way of putting it—the idea that there can’t be such a thing as morality, because we can’t do an experiment to test it. Your answer to that seems to be, “But we can if we adopt a simple assumption of human thriving or human welfare.” I forget what term we used. SH: “Well-being.” DD: Human well-being, yes. Now, I actually think that’s true, but I don’t think you have to rest on that. I think the criterion of human well-being can be a conclusion, not an axiom, because this idea that there can’t be any moral knowledge because it can’t be derived from the senses is exactly the same argument that people make when they say there can’t be any scientific knowledge because it can’t be derived from the senses. In the 20th century, empiricism was found to be nonsense, and some people therefore concluded that scientific knowledge is nonsense. But the real truth is that science is not based on empiricism, it’s based on reason, and so is morality. So if you adopt a rational attitude to morality, and therefore say that morality consists of moral knowledge—which always consists of conjectures, doesn’t have any basis, doesn’t need a basis, only needs modes of criticism, and those modes of criticism operate by criteria which are themselves subject to modes of criticism—then you come to a transcendent moral truth, from which I think yours emerges as an approximation, which is that institutions that suppress the growth of moral knowledge are immoral, because they can only be right if the final truth is already known. But if all knowledge is conjectural and subject to improvement, then protecting the means of improving knowledge is more important than any particular piece of knowledge. I think that—even without thinking of things like all humans are equal and so on—will lead directly to, for example, that slavery is an abomination. And, as I said, I think human well-being is a good approximation in most practical situations, but not an absolute truth. I can imagine situations in which it would be right for the human race as a whole to commit suicide.
critical rationalist
February 26, 2017
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Until you substantiate the assumption that what X (dis)likes is what Y should (dis)like and that your (dis)likes should have any bearing on another’s or what is subjectively considered good or bad, your non-answer is begging the question and is as useless as it was for anyone other than you since you first used it.
Without some sort of external ruling from God, is that how you see rape? Is the decision to rape analogous to choosing one ice cream flavor over another in your eyes? A mere (dis)like? We don't just consider whether we like something or not in deciding if something is good or bad - that's your strawman. We also consider the harm that may be done and the feelings of others. Rape is bad because it can be very harmful. The victim may suffer pain and be terrified by the ordeal. They may suffer mental and physical harm, be left afraid to leave their homes or to be around men in general even those who were previously considered friends. Their health may suffer as a result. Additionally they may contract any number of diseases from the rapist. All of these things may affect not just them but also the people they love. Their relationships may suffer. They may also become pregnant and become victims a second time when people like you force them to carry the rapist's offspring to term. And they may die in childbirth at the end of that process. To me that's more important than a decision about ice cream. And those are better reasons to oppose rape than to ask yourself if it happens to be on a list of things God doesn't want you to do - like wear clothes made from two different types of fabric, eat pork etc. Those things sometimes drop off the list when interpreted "correctly" and presumably when they do they become acceptable to certain people. I would not want to be raped, or to suffer any of the possible side-effects because of that or for any other reason. Nor would I want such things to happen to my family or friends. Contrary to anything Christians like you will say for us on our behalves, we atheists do not think that other people should be prevented from harming us while we should be free to do anything we like. I am not special. We are not special. I do not believe myself to be saved and others ripe for rightful torment forever in hell. And the universe does not grant me, you, or anyone special rights to be protected or to inflict harm. For this reason, if am to consider it my right not to be hurt by others without good reason then I should grant the same rights to others. It's not rocket science. I want to live in a society where we are not all in fear of each other and we do that by working out rules that we can all live by.steveh
February 26, 2017
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Seversky, on the contrary, De Sade tried to base the solution to the IS-OUGHT gap on an IS that is not at true world root level. Which BTW is precisely what happens with evolutionary materialism, as Plato pointed out in The Laws, Bk X, 2350+ years ago. The clever quip fails, fails in an inadvertently instructive and revealing way. KFkairosfocus
February 26, 2017
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Vy @ 142
“No!” in each case, then you have your answer.
That’s not an answer, that’s a presumptuous deflection that begs the question.
That's precisely the answer. The best foundation for morality lies in protecting the common or shared needs and interests of all human beings. If you have a better foundation then let's hear it.
Of course, it’s just your opinion so are you saying it counts for nothing?
Until you substantiate the assumption that what X (dis)likes is what Y should (dis)like and that your (dis)likes should have any bearing on another’s or what is subjectively considered good or bad, your non-answer is begging the question and is as useless as it was for anyone other than you since you first used it.
You didn't answer the question. Do you think your opinion counts for nothing? I'm not saying that my view should count for any more than that of others but neither should it count for any less. I believe it should be heard like yours and those of anyone else. There will always be differing or conflicting views in society while human beings are as they are. We either find a way to reconcile them through "inter-subjective agreement" or whichever group has the power will impose theirs on the rest of us, in which case a lot of people will die. Take your pick.
An Atheistic evolutionist saying an evolutionarily useful way of passing on genes is not good because of his feelings? ????
Exactly right.Seversky
February 26, 2017
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kairosfocus @ 140
PS: De Sade had somewhat to say about sexual matters, too: IIRC, more or less — nature has made the man stronger than the woman, and so it is the right of the man to do with her as he wishes.
Then De Sade was apparently unaware of the is/ought gap.Seversky
February 26, 2017
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hgp @ 132
Before I continue, I want to say, that I’m not trying in any way to establish, that what the Nazis did was in any way moral. Since I belong to one of the minorities they wanted to eliminate, I have every reason not to.
I never thought you were.
My point is rather: Can we establish the wrongness of the Nazis given your “inter-subjective agreement” theory? And I think your idea can’t establish this point. Or maybe I’m overlooking something that you can enlighten me.
In my view, when someone asks about establishing the wrongness of something in a moral sense, if that means judging it against some sort of bedrock principle that is incontrovertibly true regardless of what anyone thinks, then they are asking for something that cannot be done because no such principle exists outside of subjective belief. If I say that it is wrong to rape and murder a child, I am stating my personal belief. If a pedophile says that such acts are right because they give him pleasure, he is also stating an opinion. How do we decide between them? Put the issue to all the other members of society and see what they think. If, as I believe, the overwhelming majority of people would side with me then you have your answer. It may not meet the need of those who crave some sort of objective certainty in such matters but, in my view, it's the best there is to be had. It was never going to happen, but if the Nazis had actually asked the Czechs or Poles if they would like to be invaded and their countries absorbed into a Greater Germany, I think we know what the answer would have been. In fact, I believe that if the question had been put to the German people and they had been free to express their honest opinions, the result would have gone against the Nazis. Moral problems arise when individuals or groups believe they are entitled to act in ways which cause distress or harm or injury to other individuals or groups without any authority to do so. And the only possible valid authority for such acts can be society as a whole including obviously the potential victims of such acts. Without such authority the acts would be immoral. That's why, by that measure, both the Holocaust and the Great Flood in the Bible were immoral acts.
And (given your theory) exactly here do we have a moral question that must be answered prior to any “inter-subjective agreement”: Whenever you start an attempt at “inter-subjective agreement” you have answered this question in the affirmative beforehand. So where did you get this “reasonable standard” by which you establish, who is and who isn’t a moral agent? Seemingly not by “inter-subjective agreement”.
Whatever their origin or source, I would say we observe that the function of moral standards is to regulate the way human beings act towards one another in society. So, in the first instance, to be a human being in society with others is to be a moral agent. Whether agreed human moral standards are to be offered to other non-human species is again, in the first instance, something that human beings must decide. But they could only actually be applied with the consent of the other non-human species, assuming they were able to give such consent.
The word “re-classify” can only be applied, when there is a moral(!) classification prior to any “inter-subjective agreement” with the Nazis. The Nazis didn’t see “Untermenschen” as moral agents. So in their view, they didn’t “re-classify” anything. They just worked according to their own classification.
That's right, they did. But all those classified by the Nazis as "untermenschen" did not or would not have agreed as, in passing, did most of those not directly affected. And if the Nazis had kept their opinions to themselves there wouldn't have been a problem. But when they began to practice what they believed without the consent of those affected they crossed the line into immorality. The moral thing to do then became resistance to and eventually the destruction of the Nazi regime.
And that’s the problem: If “inter-subjective agreement” is the only standard by which to decide moral questions, then the Nazis didn’t do anything wrong. They just simply didn’t agree to your answer of the question who is a moral agent. Since no “inter-subjective agreement” between the two parties was established, where should any moral obligation come from? Not from the non-existing “inter-subjective agreement”. So either you agree that there is another source prior to “inter-subjective agreement” or your criticism of the Nazis exterminating “Untermenschen” becomes incoherent.
My answer to the question of who are moral agents is, in the first instance, quite simple. It is human beings - all human beings. Immorality consists in actions taken by human beings that cause distress or harm or injury to other human beings without their consent. That is my belief but that is all it is. The Nazis would have - and obviously did - disagree. The question then becomes how do you decide between those diametrically opposed views. Or, perhaps more accurately, who gets to decide between those positions? My solution would be to put the question to the rest to the rest of humanity since since they were - or could ultimately have been - affected by the Nazis beliefs. I would ask them all, "How do you feel about all your Jews, gypsies, mentally ill, homosexuals and political dissidents being rounded up, put into concentration camps and gassed?" I'm pretty sure I know what the answer would be and it has nothing to do with me trying to impose my moral perspective on the rest of humanity. If you have a better solution then, by all means, let's hear it.
I don’t question whether the Nazis did behave amorally. They did. But this conclusion cannot be established, when you make “inter-subjective agreement” the foundation of moral obligations. Whenever anyone doesn’t agree with any moral code, then this code doesn’t apply to him, because he didn’t give his “inter-subjective agreement”.
Not exactly. As I've said, I view morals as functioning to regulate the way people behave towards one another in society. The psychopath who derives pleasure from raping and killing others may disagree with the rest of society who view such behavior with disfavor. That's his prerogative. But if he wants to continue living freely in that society, he either finds a way to curb his baser instincts or he finds somewhere else to live.
Do there exist moral obligations prior to and independent of “inter-subjective agreement”, that established this point? If yes, why are you talking about “inter-subjective agreement” establishing moral obligations when in reality you say yourself that there are prior obligations established differently? If no, how on earth do you think you can get the Nazis to have any moral obligation to those they don’t see as moral agents?
I see the common needs which all human beings have an interest in protecting as preceding any moral obligation to protect them but, no, I don't see moral obligations existing prior to the "inter-subjective agreement" on them. As far as the Nazis were concerned, had I been around at the time, I might have done what little I could to persuade them to accept my view about the immorality of what they planned but I seriously doubt it would have had any effect.Seversky
February 26, 2017
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@Vy
While it might be nice to engage that confabulated ramble you offered and end up trying my luck in the mental gymnastics Olympic games you’re so good at, I’d rather you answer the question rambling free.
Yes, Vy. What I described is indeed mental gymnastics, which does't solve the problem. That's my point. Why should anyone have a duty to "your opinion" of what God values or demands? A chain is only as strong as its weakest link. However, you still haven't taken your option out of it. All you've done is move the link from one place in the chain to another. That's mental gymnastics I'm referring to. As for answering your question, are you saying none of the options I gave you are accurate or they are all equlivents? For you convenience....
Are you asking me how do we possess the knowledge that rape is bad? Or perhaps you’re asking why people should not follow though when their sexual advances are unwanted or cannot me consented to? Or perhaps you’re asking by which ultimate authority is rape bad if not God?
critical rationalist
February 26, 2017
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“No!” in each case, then you have your answer.
That's not an answer, that's a presumptuous deflection that begs the question.
Of course, it’s just your opinion so are you saying it counts for nothing?
Until you substantiate the assumption that what X (dis)likes is what Y should (dis)like and that your (dis)likes should have any bearing on another's or what is subjectively considered good or bad, your non-answer is begging the question and is as useless as it was for anyone other than you since you first used it. An Atheistic evolutionist saying an evolutionarily useful way of passing on genes is not good because of his feelings? ????Vy
February 25, 2017
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PPS: Plato's warning, as clipped ever so many times here at UD and as studiously -- and tellingly -- pointedly ignored or dismissed by Seversky, RVB8 and ilk:
Ath [in The Laws, Bk X 2,350+ ya]. . . .[The avant garde philosophers and poets, c. 360 BC] say that fire and water, and earth and air [i.e the classical "material" elements of the cosmos], all exist by nature and chance, and none of them by art . . . [such that] all that is in the heaven, as well as animals and all plants, and all the seasons come from these elements, not by the action of mind, as they say, or of any God, or from art, but as I was saying, by nature and chance only [ --> that is, evolutionary materialism is ancient and would trace all things to blind chance and mechanical necessity] . . . . [Thus, they hold] that the principles of justice have no existence at all in nature, but that mankind are always disputing about them and altering them; and that the alterations which are made by art and by law have no basis in nature, but are of authority for the moment and at the time at which they are made.-
[ --> Relativism, too, is not new; complete with its radical amorality rooted in a worldview that has no foundational IS that can ground OUGHT, leading to an effectively arbitrary foundation only for morality, ethics and law: accident of personal preference, the ebbs and flows of power politics, accidents of history and and the shifting sands of manipulated community opinion driven by "winds and waves of doctrine and the cunning craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming . . . " cf a video on Plato's parable of the cave; from the perspective of pondering who set up the manipulative shadow-shows, why.]
These, my friends, are the sayings of wise men, poets and prose writers, which find a way into the minds of youth. They are told by them that the highest right is might,
[ --> Evolutionary materialism -- having no IS that can properly ground OUGHT -- leads to the promotion of amorality on which the only basis for "OUGHT" is seen to be might (and manipulation: might in "spin") . . . ]
and in this way the young fall into impieties, under the idea that the Gods are not such as the law bids them imagine; and hence arise factions [ --> Evolutionary materialism-motivated amorality "naturally" leads to continual contentions and power struggles influenced by that amorality at the hands of ruthless power hungry nihilistic agendas], these philosophers inviting them to lead a true life according to nature, that is,to live in real dominion over others [ --> such amoral and/or nihilistic factions, if they gain power, "naturally" tend towards ruthless abuse and arbitrariness . . . they have not learned the habits nor accepted the principles of mutual respect, justice, fairness and keeping the civil peace of justice, so they will want to deceive, manipulate and crush -- as the consistent history of radical revolutions over the past 250 years so plainly shows again and again], and not in legal subjection to them [--> nihilistic will to power not the spirit of justice and lawfulness].
kairosfocus
February 25, 2017
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Sev, as the lion said to the gazelle, why are you bleating? You are lunch, just shut up and go down the hatch nicely. (Do you want me to cite Hitler's version?) KF PS: De Sade had somewhat to say about sexual matters, too: IIRC, more or less -- nature has made the man stronger than the woman, and so it is the right of the man to do with her as he wishes. How can the evolutionary materialist IS then rise above naked might [--> direct force] makes right or veiled might makes right [--> manipulation/deceit] as the basis for OUGHT? And, if you had paid attention to Plato in The Laws Bk X, that has been on the table for 2350+ years.kairosfocus
February 25, 2017
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Vy @ 130
Pray-tell, why is rape bad?
Would you like to be raped? Would you like a family member to be raped/ Would you like a dear friend to be raped? If, as I assume, your answer is a resounding "No!" in each case, then you have your answer. Of course, it's just your opinion so are you saying it counts for nothing?Seversky
February 25, 2017
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While it might be nice to engage that confabulated ramble you offered and end up trying my luck in the mental gymnastics Olympic games you're so good at, I'd rather you answer the question rambling free.Vy
February 25, 2017
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@Vy
So your argument is that since we can do “good” science, we can also poof good moral standards into existence based on nothing but our opinions and Sev’s useless criteria of “intersubjective agreement”? Adorable!
And, apparently, you can “poof” standards of accuracy and completeness of what God values and demands “bases on nothing but opinions”? It’s as of someone said. “Hey, I have this problem. I believe that X is morally correct. But that’s not enough because it would be “just an opinion”, so no one is actually bound to abide by it. I know! What if some transcendent authority values and demands X, so everyone must abide by it. Problem solved!” However, they are still let with the very same problem. This is because the claim that this supposed transcendent authority actually values and demands X would be “Just an opinion” as well, so no one is actually bound to abide by it, either. IOW, they just pushed the problem up a level without actually solving it. Nor am I saying that anything can be a foundation of morality, let alone science. Rather, science is used as one of meany ways criticize conjectured moral solutions to problems via empirical tests.
Pray-tell, why is rape bad?
Are you asking me how do we possess the knowledge that rape is bad? Or perhaps you’re asking why people should not follow though when their sexual advances are unwanted or cannot me consented to? Or perhaps you’re asking by which ultimate authority is rape bad if not God?critical rationalist
February 25, 2017
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mw @133: I would like to chat with you and answer any question you may want to ask me, but I did not understand your comment. Would you mind to rewrite it a little simpler to see if I can understand it? Please, note that English is not my first language. Thank you.Dionisio
February 24, 2017
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mw @133:
"I perceive you love your God and neighbour as yourself"
Wrong perception.Dionisio
February 24, 2017
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MW, Pardon, most of today was power down, and the head of the electricity utility is tentative that it may be over. Non-being, true nothing, has no causal capability. Were there ever utter nothing, such would forever obtain. That a world now is points to something that always was, the root of the world. What that root being -- IS -- was, is what we discuss. Next, we find ourselves governed by ought, even in our reasoning. What grounds ought? After Hume, only something at world-root level can do so, we face a gap between what IS and what OUGHT to be. This is the context for my discussion in 118 above, which is highly compressed:
The only thing that can successfully ground morality is a world-root level IS that is also inherently the root of OUGHT. After centuries of debate, there is precisely one serious candidate: the inherently good Creator God, a necessary and maximally great being, worthy of loyalty and the reasonable, responsible service of doing the good in accord with our evident nature. Where, as a serious candidate necessary being such a Supreme Being would either be impossible in the same way a square circle is, or else would be actual, as an inherent part of the framework of all possible worlds. Science as institution, as praxis or as body of findings does not even come close. Also, we should note that our reasoning is inextricably intertwined with responsibility to wards truth and right, so the all too common undermining of moral foundations through ill-advised ideologies is fraught with destructive consequences for our civilisation. Such as, are visible all around.
I hope it is a tad clearer now. KFkairosfocus
February 24, 2017
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